Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Storm 05-17-04, 12:25 AM	How come in 3.5 animal companions can't be Awakened? It seems stupid that a druid can awaken animals, but not his own animal companion. I mean, in my experience it was never particularly unbalancing, only giving the companion the abiliy to speak a language, better tactics and behaviour, and if you rolled really good on the dice, a few more skill points. Not to mention the will save,which is hard to make at some of the lower levels. Any thoughts?:confused:
bitnine 05-17-04, 01:33 AM	If you really want your druid to awaken a critter, have 'em take the leadership feat and treat it like a special cohort.
Seeker95 05-17-04, 11:40 AM	Originally posted by Storm How come in 3.5 animal companions can't be Awakened? It seems stupid that a druid can awaken animals, but not his own animal companion. They can be awakened. But an awakened animal companion ceases to be an animal, so it ceases to be an animal companion. It is the same as a paladin commiting an evil act. he can do it, but he ceases to be a paladin.
DungeonMaster 05-17-04, 11:54 AM	My thoughts: It's dumb and arbitrary. Have your DM houserule it back to 3rd edition. Also make sure your DM realises your animal companion is NOT a magical beast and is in fact an animal despite what the 3.5 PHB says.
Seeker95 05-17-04, 11:58 AM	It is not dumb. It's not arbitrary. If you give an animal an intelligence of higher than 2, it is no longer an animal. Go ahead and awaken your animal companion. Then go looking for a new animal companion, and treat your old one like a friend (and an NPC in the DM's control).
Zherog 05-17-04, 12:06 PM	I completely agree with Seeker. Were I your DM, I would certainly allow you to maintain the awakened animal as your cohort if you had Leadership. I would even allow it to travel with the party if you didn't have Leadership - but as an NPC.
tarkin 05-17-04, 04:57 PM	Awaken on an animal is sort of like giving a human slave the right to vote. It is awfully hard to keep them as your slave when they can vote. The politicians they vote for keep freeing them. Similarly, an animal that is awakened is above being a mere companion. Cohorts are fine, or just plain NPC's. I would personally rule that an awakened animal would complete that adventure as an NPC loyal to it's old master, as Animal companions are closer to friends than to slaves. But after that particular adventure, they would do what comes natural. A bear for example would probably go look for a female awakened bear set up a nice cottage, have a cub and weight for a golden haired human to come steal it's porridge. A Donkey would go bother the nearest Ogre. Most cat's would start a country club and not allow any humans to join.
DungeonMaster 05-17-04, 05:12 PM	Animal companions are not your slaves. They can and will refuse to do things. They are loyal but not heedlessly so. Saying an animal companion is no longer an animal because it has more than 1-2 int is not a good argument. If your int is reduced by poison damage for instance to 1-2 that doesn't suddenly make you an animal. Likewise if the animal's int is reduced to 0 from poison it's not suddenly a rock (it's still breathing). Casting a +4 to int spell on your animal companion doesn't suddenly make it a magical beast. The clause is dumb and arbitrary. For what it's worth I think druids deserve nerfs but this is "silly" and cuts into the flavor of the game if you ask me.
Conaill 05-17-04, 05:56 PM	It's not "silly". For the price of a single spell, your animal companion *permanently* receives the following benefits: +2 HD Darkvision 60' Int +8 Wis +2 Speech Not to mention that it's no an *intelligent* ally, and probably way more powerful than your average Cohort! If awakened animal companions were allowed to remain animal companions, NO druid should even given a second thought about *not* using this on their animal companion. For example, let's look at a 9th level Druid with an a Awakened Ape animal companion. I invite you to come check out the Awakened Animal thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=213092), where we've earlier decided on a Level Adjustment of +2 for the awakened ape: 4HD +4 bonus HD +2 awaken HD + 2 LA = ECL 12! Probably add another +1 LA because as an animal companion it'll also have an extra +4 natural AC, +2 Str, +2 Dex, Devotion, Evasion, and Share Spells. Once Awakened, the ape will probably insist on some decent armor and a weapon. Let's give him at the very minimum a nonmagical Breastplate for an AC of 24, and a Large size spiked chain (+11/+6 melee, 2d6+9, 20' reach!). Not to mention he'll also have more hp's than the Brb9 in the party. Essentially, the Drd9 would be gaining an ally that's comparable to a 13th level Fighter! Now tell me what's "silly"...
The Hanged Man 05-17-04, 06:28 PM	Don't forget Mass Awaken. Apparently, the obvious cheese of Awaken wasn't enough - they needed a Mass version so you could amp the stats of all the PC's.
DungeonMaster 05-17-04, 07:50 PM	Originally posted by Conaill It's not "silly". For the price of a single spell, your animal companion *permanently* receives the following benefits: It costs XP. Not bucket loads, but XP nonetheless. +2 HD Darkvision 60' Int +8 Wis +2 Speech It's charisma not wisdom. Not to mention that it's no an *intelligent* ally, and probably way more powerful than your average Cohort! Like your average cleric cohort? I don't know what you're saying. What's an average cohort? If awakened animal companions were allowed to remain animal companions, NO druid should even given a second thought about *not* using this on their animal companion. So? Again I don't understand. In 3rd edition you had a max HD cap - so what if my eagle has +2 hd? So what if the 20 HD dire bear has another 2 HD? Really this isn't a big deal. Once Awakened, the ape will probably insist on some decent armor and a weapon. Let's give him at the very minimum a nonmagical Breastplate for an AC of 24, and a Large size spiked chain (+11/+6 melee, 2d6+9, 20' reach!). Er... houserules there my friend. I don't see anywhere where it says your animal can use weapons and armor - or your "magical beast".
Conaill 05-17-04, 08:57 PM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster [B]It costs XP. Not bucket loads, but XP nonetheless.It costs you less than half the XP you gain in a single encounter at that level. Whoop-tee-doo! It's charisma not wisdom.[quote]Yup, my bad. [quote]Like your average cleric cohort? I don't know what you're saying. What's an average cohort?You, know, the one that's 2 or more levels behind you? As opposed to the ECL 13 monster the 9th level Druid gets in this case... So? Again I don't understand. In 3rd edition you had a max HD cap - so what if my eagle has +2 hd? So what if the 20 HD dire bear has another 2 HD? Really this isn't a big deal.It's no big deal if you assume that it was balanced in 3.0. Which it wasn't... The original poster was talking about 3.5. If you want to wind back to using 3.0 animal companions, that would be a much bigger change than rolling the Awaken spell back to 3.0, so let's leave that out of the discussion for now, shall we? Er... houserules there my friend. I don't see anywhere where it says your animal can use weapons and armor - or your "magical beast". No house rules needed whatsoever. Sure, it's only proficient with it's natural weapons. But the Awakened Ape also gains one extra feat because of it's +2 HD (going from 8HD to 10 HD). The Ape can easily choose that feat to be a weapon or armor proficiency. (A bit more dicey solution would be to allow the Awakened Ape to gain a level of Fighter. It becomes an intelligent NPC after Awakening, so no reason it can't gain XP and class levels.) There's also a necklace in SS or MotW that allows for weapon enchantments to be put on natural weapons. The Awakened Ape doesn't really need a manufactured weapon, it already has a pretty sweet Full Attack sequence. The 20' Reach spiked chain might be a little over the top, but two 10' Reach claw attacks will work fine too... (PS: Animal Companions are indeed Animals, not Magical Beast... that's in the 3.5 errata)
DungeonMaster 05-18-04, 08:44 AM	Don't quote me wrong, it's not a lot of XP but it's not zero either. If you have many animal companions (birds, mice, wolves, bears, etc...) it can become significant. It's no big deal if you assume that it was balanced in 3.0. Which it wasn't... Pretty damn fair if you ask me what was your problem with it? If you want to drop it, sure. No house rules needed whatsoever. Sure, it's only proficient with it's natural weapons. But the Awakened Ape also gains one extra feat because of it's +2 HD (going from 8HD to 10 HD). The Ape can easily choose that feat to be a weapon or armor proficiency. (A bit more dicey solution would be to allow the Awakened Ape to gain a level of Fighter. It becomes an intelligent NPC after Awakening, so no reason it can't gain XP and class levels.) Those ARE houserules. I don't see the spell description granting feats do you? Can you show me the line? Nor do I see "it can gain class levels from now on"? Mayhap your interpreting a wee bit too much and it's your interpretation that's making it broken? Do you gain an extra feat every time a bard uses his inspire greatness song on you? How about a potion of heroism?
Seeker95 05-18-04, 10:08 AM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster Saying an animal companion is no longer an animal because it has more than 1-2 int is not a good argument. If your int is reduced by poison damage for instance to 1-2 that doesn't suddenly make you an animal. Bogus argument. All animals have intelligence of 1 or 2. This is a core rule. It does not say that all creatures with a 1 or 2 intelligence are animals. And this is not even a logically inferrable conclusion. (Just as all apples may be fruit, but not all fruits are apples.) If your animal (whether companion, pet, or the bear charging you out of the wilderness) has its intelligence raised higher than 2, it is no longer an animal. Animal companions must be animals. Animals have intelligence of 1 or 2. If intelligence is higher than 2, the creature is not an animal. Awaken your animal companion, and it is no longer an animal. It is no longer your animal companion. It has nothing to do with slavery, or friendship. It has everything to do with core rules and mechanics.
DungeonMaster 05-18-04, 10:43 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 All animals have intelligence of 1 or 2. This is a core rule. An animal that has been poison damaged to 0 is still an animal. An animal that has it's intelligence raised by a spell or item is still an animal unless its type changes. That's a really weird literal interpretation of the "core rules" and "mechanics" you have going there. You're taking the sentance "all animals have int 1-2" and implying "a creature without int 1-2 is not an animal". There are rules and mechanics that will allow the animal to have int 0, 3 or more such as poison, fox's cunning, etc... There are, as far as I can tell, no rules saying your animal changes type except in the un-errataed awaken spell. The un-errataed version would give you an instance of precedence The best interpretation which leads to the least number of logical conundrums is that an animal initially has int 1-2 and that an increase or decrease in it's intelligence does not change it's type.
Seeker95 05-18-04, 10:49 AM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster An animal that has been poison damaged to 0 is still an animal.Its Int is not 0. The "current Int" is 0. There is a difference.
Conaill 05-18-04, 11:58 AM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster Those ARE houserules. I don't see the spell description granting feats do you? Can you show me the line?Sure: "An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD." Unless this is an explicit exception to the general rule, that means the awakened animal will also gain the normal BAB, Saves, skills points and feats that come with those additional HD. So the Awakened Ape gets one extra feat at 9HD, 2 x (2+Int mod) skill points, etc. Heck, that's the way it works even for animal companions and paladin mounts: "The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice." Gotta run, I'll be back later. Meanwhile, you can find more details on how exactly the Awaken spell works in the link in my sig. Edit: For example, the Awakened Dire Wolf Barbarian (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20031003a) in Andy Collins' "Elite Opponents: Dire Wolves" article has one additional feat for having a total of 9HD. She also gets +2 BAB going from 6HD->8HD, extra saves, skill points, etc. She should also be getting an ability score improvement at 8HD, but that's a bit harder to see because of the use of elite ability scores. Edit2:Do you gain an extra feat every time a bard uses his inspire greatness song on you? How about a potion of heroism?AFAIK, Potion of Heroism doesn't grant any HD. And Inspire Greatness sates more or less specifically which benefits you *do* get from the +2 HD (including a +2 BAB and +1 Fort). It's a temporary effect anyway, so logically you wouldn't expect to get any skills or feats from it, just like you don't get any immediate increase in skill points from putting on a Headband of Intellect.
The Ferryman 05-18-04, 12:43 PM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster: ...An animal that has it's intelligence raised by a spell or item is still an animal unless its type changes... Here you go then: Per the SRD under Awaken: An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount. Also: Per the SRD under Animal Traits: Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
DungeonMaster 05-18-04, 12:48 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Its Int is not 0. The "current Int" is 0. There is a difference. Please provide a page reference.
Thorak 05-18-04, 12:59 PM	Since it's clear the rules forbid Awakened animal companions in 3.5, let's try reasoning out why this might be rather than trying to find other support for that definitive fact. IMHO, animal companions can't be Awakened primarily because of two things; first, they become magical beasts and thus are outside the druid's realm of influence, and second, they're too smart to be relatively unthinking followers. An animal companion sticks around unless you abuse it, pretty much. An Awakened critter might just decide he's bored and leave.
Seeker95 05-18-04, 05:09 PM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster Please provide a page reference. Go home, Dungeon Master. You stopped arguing about the topic under discussion long ago, and are now just being contrary. The explicit ruling in the SRD and Core Rules make providing a page reference un-necessary. Core rules say no to awakened animal companions.
Aeolus91 05-18-04, 05:46 PM	As a druid myself, (No yelling at me for playing a "Broken" class please) I think that an awakened animal is still an animal, but cannot be an animal companion. A wolf raised to 10 int is still a wolf, just a smart one. If an animal is no longer an animal when it becomes intelligent, then Albert Einstein was no longer human when he invented the theory of relativity. However, an animal companion is a loyal friend that is sent to you by your love of nature. If you awaken him to higher intelligence, then he is no longer natural. The whole point of the druid is to be a force of nature, and to fight that which is unnatural. A parrot smarter than a human is not natural.
Aracor 05-18-04, 10:54 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a feat listed somewhere that allows you to have a magical beast as an animal companion rather than just an animal? Seems to me that's how I'd go about awakening a companion and still having it as a companion rather than just a cohort or something. That way I wouldn't have to take the leadership feat and worry about a buncha little npc people and decide what they're doing, and I could still have a cool companion. ~Aracor edit...found it in the Epic Handbook SRD as well as the update from 3.0 to 3.5 for the epic handbook. So it's a longterm goal, but it would still be cool.
Conaill 05-19-04, 02:01 AM	Originally posted by Aracor Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a feat listed somewhere that allows you to have a magical beast as an animal companion rather than just an animal? Let me just quote the feat you're referring to:Magical Beast Companion [Wild] [Epic] You can befriend a magical beast with limited Intelligence. Prerequisite: Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, wild shape 6/day. Benefit: The following magical beasts are added to the lists of animal companions from which you can select.. 1st Level (no adjustment) stirge darkmantle 4th Level (–3) hippogriff shocker lizard [...]Note that with exception of some of the very highest level ones, these are *all* Magical Beasts with an Int of 1 or 2 (the exception being the Griffon: 7th lvl, Int 5; Chimera: 13th lvl, Int 4; Remorhaz: 13th lvl, Int 5; Gray Render: 16th lvl, Int 3). This feat was intended to allow a Druid access to a less "natural" animal companion. And it gives a very specific list of these alternatice animal companions. It was NOT intended to give them a fully intelligent and independent monstrous ally of your choice! I wouldn't mind charging a feat to allow druids to keep an awakened animal companion. But I would at the very least put a cap on the total ECL of the critter. Let's say the animal companion's ECL can be at most one level below the Druid (in contrast, a cohort can only be lvl-2).
DungeonMaster 05-19-04, 09:12 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Go home, Dungeon Master. You stopped arguing about the topic under discussion long ago, and are now just being contrary. The explicit ruling in the SRD and Core Rules make providing a page reference un-necessary. Core rules say no to awakened animal companions. My what a way to argue... telling me to "go home"? I guess you're unable to find proof for the claim, that's fine. As it stands the int of the creature can be easily 5-6 with just one spell and I don't beleive that changes the type of the creature from animal to magical beast...
Seeker95 05-19-04, 09:46 AM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster the Int of the creature can be easily 5-6 with just one spell and I don't beleive that changes the type of the creature from animal to magical beast... If the change is a temporary effect of fox' cunning, then you're right. It doesn't change the target's type, since it doesn't mention it anywhere in the spell description. But awaken does. It explicitly states that the animal becomes a magical beast. So whether you "believe" awaken turns an animal into a magical beast or not doesn't matter. It does.
The Ferryman 05-19-04, 10:50 AM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster: I guess you're unable to find proof for the claim, that's fine. As it stands the int of the creature can be easily 5-6 with just one spell and I don't beleive that changes the type of the creature from animal to magical beast... Perhaps you missed my first post, I'll post it again for you. Per the SRD under Awaken: An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount. Also: Per the SRD under Animal Traits: Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). EDIT: Also note Seeker's post. Temporary ability score boosts or ability damage would not affect an animal's type.
ChaozWarior 05-19-04, 02:20 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the 3.5 PHB awaken description say that the Aninal Companion retains a Helpfull attitude towards you. (Or at least it wsas friendly which goes to helpfull with an easy Dip. check) Now then the description of Helpfull from DMG=Will take riksks for you..or something., Actually the spell noe is better since it allows you to have an awakened magical beast that is helpfull towards you=accompanies you and fights at your side as long as you remain friendly and helpfull to it + a natural animal as a companion which you can awaken and build an army of followers to destroy all Evil.
Conaill 05-19-04, 03:05 PM	Originally posted by ChaozWarior Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the 3.5 PHB awaken description say that the Aninal Companion retains a Helpfull attitude towards you. (Or at least it wsas friendly which goes to helpfull with an easy Dip. check)I don't think the "friendly" aspect of the spell is all that important. "Friendly" means "Wishes you well. - Possible actions: Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate." You can get the exact same effect by befriending a powerful NPC. Doesn't mean he'll follow you around and risk his neck for you on a daily basis...
DungeonMaster 05-19-04, 03:26 PM	Ok.. you two are missing the point completely. Seeker's original argument was that an animal with more than 1-2 int is no longer an animal. Temporary int boosts are intelligence increases - whether you like it or not you then have an animal with 6 int, about as smart as a troll, that is still an animal -it's type has not changed. The awaken spell is not precluding the animal from being an animal companion because it has more than 2 int, it's doing so in a direct fashion which I've already stated I think is dumb and arbitrary.
Seeker95 05-19-04, 03:51 PM	Bold originally posted by DungeonMaster Ok.. you two are missing the point completely. Nope. You're missing the point. Seeker's original argument was that an animal with more than 1-2 int is no longer an animal. Nope. My original point was that awaken increases the intelligence, making it no longer an animal. The spell description explictly states this. Temporary int boosts are intelligence increases - whether you like it or not you then have an animal with 6 int, about as smart as a troll, that is still an animal -it's type has not changed. And this would be relevant *if* this applied in any was to the awaken spell. The awaken spell is not precluding the animal from being an animal companion because it has more than 2 int, it's doing so in a direct fashion which I've already stated I think is dumb and arbitrary. Opinion noted. But the original question was why can't a druid awaken his animal companion. The answer is that he can. It just stops being his animal companion.
Thorak 05-19-04, 04:00 PM	To reiterate something I said earlier; even if you houseruled to keep the animal companion an 'animal' and thus an animal companion when Awakened, there's still a darn good reason for it to not be. Animal companions are under the druid's control. There is absolutely nothing within the Animal Companion ability description that says a druid can't order his animal companion to it's death. And there's nothing suggesting the animal companion could refuse that order. The druid would probably be pretty evil to do this unless it was for a good reason, but druids can be plenty evil, so that's not a deviation from the class. An Awakened companion, on the other hand, has a mind of it's own. that's the entire point of Awaken. If you order it to do something like that, it would only do so because it wants to, not because you've ordered it to. An animal companion doesn't have that kind of choice. I have absolutely no problem with Awakening an animal companion, and them being able to stick around as a cohort or some such. They probably will like the druid a great deal and want to help them. But they're not an animal companion any more. In 3.0, animal companions were just animals the druid was friends with. In 3.5, the connection is much closer-knit, and thus there are stricter limits on it.
DungeonMaster 05-19-04, 04:00 PM	This is from the very damn top of the page - a direct quote: Originally posted by Seeker95 It is not dumb. It's not arbitrary. If you give an animal an intelligence of higher than 2, it is no longer an animal. That is NOT I repeat NOT the reason that you can't have an awakened animal companion in 3.5. Because you can clearly have an animal with int 6 by a simple fox's cunning spell. It's still an animal. Your claim that because it's a "temporary" intelligence boost makes things jive is again, unsubstantiated. The rules distinguish only at the level of stacking from various sources boosts - not the net effect. An animal with 6 int is an animal with 6 int. Period. Could be an inherent boost from wishes - quite permanent - or a simple spell or item. The awaken spell is specific in it's banning of the awakened animal from being an animal companion - it has nothing at all to do with the intelligence of the creature. That is the original question in spirit - correct me if I am wrong Storm - why can't the poor bugger have an awakened animal companion in 3.5. My input was that you could in 3rd edition, they took it out in 3.5, and that's arbitrary and dumb in my opinion.
Seeker95 05-19-04, 04:04 PM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster [...] and it's arbitrary and dumb that is was in my opinion. Just making sure you get in the last word, even if they aren't the last words I would have chosen.
DungeonMaster 05-19-04, 04:08 PM	Oh please... ... this would be relevant *if* this applied in any was to the awaken spell. Think yourself immune to typing mistakes?
Seeker95 05-19-04, 04:12 PM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster Think yourself immune to typing mistakes? Nope. :P
DungeonMaster 05-19-04, 04:13 PM	Fine by me. :P I need to get a template that makes me immune though... :P
Seeker95 05-19-04, 04:22 PM	I refuse to take the template. One of the prerequisites is that you have to learn how to type. I prefer my really fast two and three finger typing.
smrtgmp 05-19-04, 04:49 PM	Now boys, play nice...;)
Ryoohki 05-19-04, 05:39 PM	There is indeed a difference between an enhancement bonus to INT versus the stat being different. An enhancement bonus to INT does not grant bonus skill points. It does not grant bonus spells known (if you're a spellcaster). It does not grant additional languages known. It doesn't do a number of things already. I'm sure there are more. So claiming it's the same thing is wrong. If you gave an inherent bonus due to a wish to an animal, it may indeed change its type to a magical beast since wish is powerful and could do things like that. It'd be an adverse effect of increasing its intelligence, awakening it in essense. But don't get hung up on the whole intelligence issue. I think the idea is what awaken is supposed to make the animal not be an animal anymore. It is supposed to be a magical beast. What animal can talk normally with intelligence behind it? What animal can be a wizard or a sorcerer? A bard? A monk? I don't think animals can do these things, but an awakened animal can. So can magical beasts. I think it makes sense to therefore have awakened animals become magical beasts. Kyle
Aracor 05-19-04, 08:03 PM	we've earlier decided on a Level Adjustment of +2 for the awakened ape: Why, oh why, did you decide on a level adjustment for an awakened animal? And doesn't a level adjustment only really apply to a PC? It seems to me that the fact that it's a creature with hit dice already has a base CR and ECL, simply because of racial hit dice. An animal that has had awaken cast upon it is MINIMUM 3 hit dice, and that's assuming it was a 1 HD animal before it was awakened. That's a minimum ECL of 3. To be perfectly honest, I haven't seen much for most animals that would even justify a level adjustment of +1, much less +2. ~Aracor
Conaill 05-19-04, 09:00 PM	Why, oh why a Level Adjustment for an awakened animal? Why not!? An awakened animal will have a normal Int, and is eminently playable as a PC or a cohort. Main problem is a lack of hands (in most cases), but SS and MotW have some ways to get around that, with equipment that is designed to be used by animals. If D&D provide rules to play such monstrocities as an Ettercap as a PC (LA +4, ECL 9), then why doesn't it provide guidelines for playing, say, an awakened wolf? (Speaking of which... if the Worg has a listed LA, why not the awakened wolf?) Considering that Awaken is a core spell, I feel that not having LA's for awakened animals is a pretty big gap in the rules. Apparently, there was some discussion about putting the LA's in Savage Species, but they were eventually left out in favor of a new Anthopomorphic template (which makes them much more humanoid). Would you want to play an awakened animal with such a high ECL? Well, that's really the question being asked when you estimate LA in the first place! The SS "acid test" adds one single level of the optimal character class choice to the creature, and then asks whether the result is about equal in playability as a human of that class. So if you say "I'd never play with an ECL that high!" you're really saying "All the LA's have been estimated too high!" As for the awakened animal LA estimates, I would invite you to drop by the Awakened Animal thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=213092) (or it's sister thread over on EN World (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82688)) and check out some of the acid tests we've done there. Awakened animal monks are often a good choice, because they don't really rely on equipment and/or hands. The highest ECL one we've done so far is an Awakened Tiger: 8 HD, plus +3 LA! In the end, we decided that an Awakened Tiger Mnk1 or Ftr1 is reasonably well balanced compared to a Mnk12 or Ftr12. You can find the acid test on this thread (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1499886#post1499886) at En World. If you have a good argument why you think the LA should be lower, feel free to post it! I always welcome additional opinions...specially PS: we're currently looking at the Awakened Eagle here (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=87339) and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3410108#post3410108). 3 HD, 80' Fly speed, Darkvision 60', 3 attacks/rnd, Dex+4, Con+2, Wis+4, Cha-2. Looks like it'll be around +0 or +1 LA. In comparison, a Giant Eagle (4 HD) is listed as +2 LA. Seems about right...