Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thepuregamer 02-05-07, 11:50 AM	As far as I can tell, awaken undead gives your undead creatures 4 +d6 intelligence. As far I can tell though, the most one can get beyond that is 13 intelligence by empowering and maximizing the spell. Can one get more int out of this spell?
tarkin 02-05-07, 12:32 PM	Unless you House Rule, you can not empower or maximize Awaken. Similarly, hitpoints, intelligence, etc. are not maximized when you summon a creature. The stats are not actually granted by the spell. The spell grants you a mind, and you roll randomly for the mind's stats.
katarl 02-05-07, 03:06 PM	Unless you House Rule, you can not empower or maximize Awaken. Similarly, hitpoints, intelligence, etc. are not maximized when you summon a creature. The stats are not actually granted by the spell. The spell grants you a mind, and you roll randomly for the mind's stats. Eh? Where are you getting this from? The 4+d6 is a numerical variable and is covered by maximise and empowered, though this would make the spell level 13, so you're quite epic. Because of this, you might consider intensifying it(ELH), that maximises it, then doubles it! I'd recommend making dread warriors, curst or vampire spawn instead though. Awaken Undead mainly useful for bog-standard troops, not mages and skill-users, for them you have lichdom and ghouls/wights.
thepuregamer 02-05-07, 06:14 PM	Well, I would use a metamagic rod for the maximize. and the empower only puts it up to 9 for wiz's and 8 for clerics. Problem is that summoning creatures gives you a specific object. A creature. Creatures have tons of other things.
Shatteredtower 02-05-07, 10:48 PM	As far as I can tell, awaken undead gives your undead creatures 4 +d6 intelligence. As far I can tell though, the most one can get beyond that is 13 intelligence by empowering and maximizing the spell. Can one get more int out of this spell?Only if you allow awaken and awaken undead to be empowered and you use the effect on the corpses of creatures that had greater than 13 Intelligence to start, since the spell will not make an undead creature smarter than it was in life.
risner 02-05-07, 11:23 PM	Eh? Where are you getting this from? The 4+d6 is a numerical variable and is covered by maximise and empowered, No, the effect is to awaken the undead. The stats are not part of the effect and could not be empowered any more than opposed rolls could be empowered.
thepuregamer 02-06-07, 04:06 PM	No, the effect is to awaken the undead. The stats are not part of the effect and could not be empowered any more than opposed rolls could be empowered. Nope, the effect of awaken is to give the undead creature intelligence. There are other side effects of the creature getting intelligence but mainly you are giving the creature intelligence. Intelligence in dnd is a quantitative thing. Thus adding d6 +4 intelligence to an undead creature can be empowered and maximized. Similiar to how Chill touch deals d6 damage as well as 1 point of strength damage associated with a fort save or how destruction slays a target on a failed fortitude save and deals 10d6 damage on a successful save. 10d6 damage is an quantitative and variable effect of destruction and thus empower increases it. Opposed rolls are not effects of spells. That is why they cannot be empowered and maximized. Shattered- I agree that you cannot raise the critters int above what it had in life, ie.-I didn't mean that it could give undead animals 13 int.
risner 02-06-07, 04:51 PM	Nope, the effect of awaken is to give the undead creature intelligence. There are other side effects of the creature getting intelligence but mainly you are giving the creature intelligence. Intelligence in dnd is a quantitative thing. Thus adding d6 +4 intelligence to an undead creature can be empowered and maximized. We shall agree to disagree. What makes you so certain this is different than summoning spells? As I see it, it is exactly identical in function to summoning spells.
thepuregamer 02-06-07, 05:29 PM	We shall agree to disagree. What makes you so certain this is different than summoning spells? As I see it, it is exactly identical in function to summoning spells. How is it identical to a summoning spell though? In the spell description of summon monster I, they never once list a variable effect. Similarly, hitpoints, intelligence, etc. are not maximized when you summon a creature. This was said by tarkin, but the real reason why mazimize and empower do not work on summoned creatures is because hitpoints, stats, etc are not variable effects. You always get the same monster no matter how many times you summon him. Perhaps not the same name if the DM decides it is important he has one, but certainly the same stats and hp and everything else. If variable and quantitative effects of some sort were listed in the spell description of summon monster, there would be a use for empower and maximize. On the other hand, variable effects are listed in awaken undead. It has alot more in common with flame strike than summon creature spells. A flame strike produces a vertical column of divine fire roaring downward. The spell deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6). Half the damage is fire damage, but the other half results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to being reduced by resistance to fire-based attacks. By this I mean that the spell describes what it is doing in the first line of text and then describes the effects next. In dnd, fire is measurable. It deals d6/CL fire damage. Variable. Awaken undead grants intelligence. Like fire, intelligence is measurable. Awaken undead grants 4+d6 intelligence. A variable effect. This is how I interpret it.
RavenDrake 02-06-07, 07:05 PM	Actually, I should think the intelligence would be increased by maximize or empower. It's as much a variable numeric effect of the spell as Fireball's damage, the duration a Dispel Magic supresses an item, or the number of creatures of a lower level summoned by a Summon Monster V.
risner 02-07-07, 09:05 AM	This was said by tarkin, but the real reason why mazimize and empower do not work on summoned creatures is because hitpoints, stats, etc are not variable effects. You always get the same monster no matter how many times you summon him. Awaken MUST list how to generate stats for the stats that the creature would otherwise have - listed as a value. You can't seriously believe that this is different than summoning spells, because in both cases the stats are calculated via rolling dice (in the case of summoning, most people just take the die rolls based on the creature stats in the MM, but you could roll them and apply racial stat modifiers.) I don't see your argument compelling as a reason that Awaken is different than summoning spells.
thepuregamer 02-07-07, 09:35 AM	Awaken MUST list how to generate stats for the stats that the creature would otherwise have - listed as a value. You can't seriously believe that this is different than summoning spells, because in both cases the stats are calculated via rolling dice (in the case of summoning, most people just take the die rolls based on the creature stats in the MM, but you could roll them and apply racial stat modifiers.) I don't see your argument compelling as a reason that Awaken is different than summoning spells. But it is different from a summoning spell because it does list how to generate the stats. Summoning spells do not list how to generate stats. Thus there is no similarity between the two. This variable calculating of stats is not listed once in the spell. I find it hard then to see what problem you have with my argument. This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st-level list on the accompanying Summon Monster table. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell. A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type. Arcane Focus: A tiny bag and a small (not necessarily lit) candle. The spell never lists how one generates any of the monsters stats. Thus that is not a part of the summoning spell. Awaken undead on the other hand does. Where are they similar?
risner 02-07-07, 11:57 AM	Let us get away from what is confusing and get back to the basics. From the Awaken spell: An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. From Fireball: A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level From Summon Monster II: you can summon one creature from the 2nd-level list or 1d3 creatures of the same kind from the 1st-level list. Notice how Fireball and Summon Monster II have variable numberic effects created by the spell (1d6 damage/level and 1d3 creatures), but Awaken does not have any variable numberic effects (you don't awaken 1d3 creatures, you don't deal damage.) You awaken one creature. You should not be empowering the Charisma and Intelligence the animal/undead/whatever gets from being awakened.
thepuregamer 02-07-07, 12:58 PM	You should not be empowering the Charisma and Intelligence the animal/undead/whatever gets from being awakened. Why? Those are the variable numeric effects of the spell.
risner 02-07-07, 03:18 PM	Why? Those are the variable numeric effects of the spell. They are not. The spell does not grant those stats, the spell awakens the creature. The creature gets those abilities as part of being awaken, but not as part of the spell. It is the same thing that happens with summoning, the summoned creatures have Hit Points, Stats, etc. Non of the summoned creatures stats are altered by any effect that happens to the summoning spell in the same way none of the stats for an awaken creature should be altered by anything that effects the Awaken spell.
thepuregamer 02-07-07, 03:48 PM	Awakening a creature is the same thing as increasing its mental stats. When you awaken an animal, you are increasing its intelligence. It is a direct effect of casting the spell. It is listed in the spell description. Of course as I have said before, the statistics of a creature is not mentioned by the spell summon monster. Meaning a summoning spell does not impact the creatures stats. How can you write off that difference? Awaken says it awakens a creature just like fireball says it is an explosion of flame. Saying its awakened doesn't tell you what it does. Saying it is an explosion of flame doesn't tell you what it does. You have creatures without the spell summon monster. Their stats are dealt with outside the effects of the spell. That creature exists before you summon him. His stats aren't decided by the spell. Before you cast awaken, that creature does not have those stats. Gaining 3d6 intelligence is a direct effect of casting awaken on that creature. It is decided by that spell and it is clearly mentioned in the spell. An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). I need you to ask yourself, is getting 3d6 intelligence and +1d3 charisma a numeric effect? Is it a variable effect? Is it an effect of the spell? Obviously numeric and variable. Yes there is a cause and effect relationship with the casting of the spell and the increased intelligence on the part of the animal. Yes to the 3rd then. Like I have said before, summon monster doesn't create that creature. It has no impact on hit points, statistics, or anything else. It is not the same as awaken which clearly does have an effect on statistics. A numeric and variable effect. Long repetetive rant done.
Immurmodi 02-07-07, 04:01 PM	Do remember that you can maximise an summon I-IX spell, Admittedly you cannot maximise a creatures stats or hp as they are not variables in the spell, But you can maximise the spells ability to summon d3 lesser summons thus allways summoning three of them
risner 02-07-07, 09:03 PM	1) Is it a variable effect? 2) Is it an effect of the spell? 1) Yes 2) No, and since it isn't a part of the spell, Empower doesn't modify it.
RavenDrake 02-08-07, 12:04 AM	1) Is it a variable effect? 2) Is it an effect of the spell? 1) Yes 2) No, and since it isn't a part of the spell, Empower doesn't modify it. Uh.... what? How can that NOT be an effect of the spell... You cast Awaken Undead, it gains 1d6+4 intellligence... Cause -> Effect That's like saying Empower won't increase the damage of Acid Fog because the spell isn't doing the damage, it just creates the fog.
risner 02-08-07, 01:11 AM	Uh.... what? How can that NOT be an effect of the spell... You cast Awaken Undead, it gains 1d6+4 intellligence... Cause -> Effect Read the spell.
RavenDrake 02-08-07, 12:26 PM	Read the spell. You know, it's kind of offensive that you say that offhand, as though I'm arguing a point about something I've never seen before. This spell grants intelligence to mindless undead such as skeletons and zombies. Undead with Intelligence scores are unaffected. Mindless undead within the radius gain Intelligence 4+1d6. Undead cannot gain more intelligence than typical of their original kind. A skeletal dog simply has Intelligence 2, while a skeletal orc makes the die roll but can’t have more than Intelligence 8. Undead do not regain any skills or feats they had in life. I don't see any reason why this effect cannot be empowered. While I don't really see a reason to do it, I can see absolutely nothing about the spells description that makes it invalid for empower.
risner 02-08-07, 03:00 PM	You know, it's kind of offensive that you say that offhand, as though I'm arguing a point about something I've never seen before. You know what, you are right. I guess I was in a bad mood when I made that post. I am sorry. When I read the awaken spells, it seemed clear to me they are formatted differently than most spells. However I did find one other spell (Jump) which has the same curious "gets blah" text that isn't talking about them getting a save. I guess I see (vi DM zero) the stats as part of the Awaken spells not so much a factor of the spell but the effect the spell has on the target. I don't exactly see any rules to prohibit Awaken from being Empowered. I guess I see it as more of an "it doesn't feel right" issue. Considering one other spell uses the "gets X" text (Jump), I bow out of this discussion. Risner
RavenDrake 02-08-07, 07:25 PM	Risner: If I came across as overly harsh when I said that, I appologise. It just kind of rubbed me the wrong way because I was fairly sure I was argueing from at least a firm grey area in terms of the spell. No hard feelings. At any rate, Jump is not an empowerable spell either.... it's not "variable". It's fixed, based on caster level. If I empowered Scorching Ray it wouldn't give me more rays to fire, just more damage per ray. It would be different if it was a fixed value (either flat fixed or fixed based on caster level) or if it required a skill or ability check to set it. As I see it, it's a variable numeric effect (the undead are awakened by giving them 1d6+4 intelligence). I could even potentially concede the point if they'd worded it like said "Roll up the creatures intelligence as normal(roll four six sided dice, dropping the lowest value), though its final intelligence score may not exceed the average for a creature of its type." But by the wording they used, granting the creature intelligence in the fashion they have makes the spell elligble for empowerment.