Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Navigator 10-31-06, 11:38 PM	Do awakened undead get their feats back, or not?
Navigator 11-01-06, 02:15 PM	:bump: Anyone?
xdahnx 11-01-06, 04:42 PM	No. It says so in the description. (LM)
Navigator 11-01-06, 04:53 PM	Unless you look at the SC rewrite, which is ambiguous.
ninja1 11-01-06, 08:18 PM	They do not get the feats of the old creature back automatically... ...however, as intelligent undead, they now qualify for feats as per the Undeat Type. Assign new feats as you see fit... If you liked what they had before, then chose some or all of them if you prefer.
runestar 11-02-06, 02:15 AM	They can qualify for new feats, but I doubt they will retroactively get back old feats they never had or learnt...:P
Maxxx 11-02-06, 07:51 AM	As a DM I would just give them feats for a creature of their HD, most would be the ones they had in live plus new ones if they do not qualify for some of the old ones or are zombies now and have more feats. Some obvious possibilities would be improved natural attack, improved turn resistance and similar typical monster feats. In higher level games unintelligent undead from animate dead are pretty worthless anyway.
ninja1 11-02-06, 10:37 AM	They can qualify for new feats, but I doubt they will retroactively get back old feats they never had or learnt...:P I don't mean to say that they regain old feats directly, but they may select those same feats as part of the Intelligent Undead feat alotment if they qualify for them. For example, if they had things like Multiattack while alive and then were animated/awakened, they could pick up Multiattack as long as the newly animated/awakened creature qualified. However, feats they no longer qualify for (like ones that require a constitution score) cannot be picked up with the Intelligend Undead feat alotment. In higher level games unintelligent undead from animate dead are pretty worthless anyway. :confused: huh?, I take it we haven't been properly introduced.. :) With all of the spells, feats, class abilities, etc... that can be pumped into Animate Dead, it is possible to crank out some extremely potent minions. (imho)
Maxxx 11-02-06, 11:03 AM	With all of the spells, feats, class abilities, etc... that can be pumped into Animate Dead, it is possible to crank out some extremely potent minions. I mean without the use of Awaken Undead. Of course if your DM happens to let you fight against a 20HD creature with six different templates, than you have something that can really help at higher levels, but if you have your usual 20HD skeleton it will have a BAB of only +10 and an extremely low bonus on Fort saves and if you want something with a high strength it will probably also have a very poor Reflex save. Everytime I play a necromancer I am very disappointed that the really cool creatures either have to many HD or are otherwise not allowed for the template. In one of my last sessions playing the Age of Worms Adventure path I found a very cool aberration, but you cannot turn something into a skeleton that is basically a squid on land and a zombie would only have a single attack which is also worthless if the fun part of the creature were its multiple attacks. I mean even something like a balor skeleton (if you allow something like that or even ever encounter a balor that does not disappear after death) is CR 8, using all corpscrafter feats and putting stuff like ironbones and similar spells on it, will make it a CR 11 at most, not really powerful at level 20. The only real exception are skeletal dragons or zombie dragons, for everything else you have to put everything you have into creating undead that are adequate at best.
epifreak 11-02-06, 01:36 PM	You're forgetting incorporeal undead. Even if the CR of the creature doesn't make it a significant challenge at high levels, the X drain it slapped on the enemy before getting destroyed will help quite a bit in the battle.
Navigator 11-02-06, 03:17 PM	Thanks for the feedback guys, I'll see if I can direct the comments more accurately. So does everyone agree that awakened undead do, in fact, get feats? I am currently wrestling with my DM over whether or not they get feats. He says that they can gain feats at this point, but will not retroactively get them (which makes no sense to me, you either do or don't have feats). What is the argument I should present to my DM? I personally do think they get feats, but still can't come up with a solid reason why (the description of the spell in SC neglects to say anything about feats). If so, how exactly does it work? Do I choose all feats as if I were building a character or just choose all six based on his current statistics?
runestar 11-02-06, 09:25 PM	So does everyone agree that awakened undead do, in fact, get feats? I am currently wrestling with my DM over whether or not they get feats. He says that they can gain feats at this point, but will not retroactively get them (which makes no sense to me, you either do or don't have feats). I think you have it backwards. Say you cast awaken undead on a 2HD skeleton. It will not get the feat it missed from its 1st HD, but when it takes a class lv(3HD), it can take a feat at this point if it qualifies for it.:) What is the argument I should present to my DM? I personally do think they get feats, but still can't come up with a solid reason why (the description of the spell in SC neglects to say anything about feats). Just curious, what undead are you planning on awakening? Mindless undead like skeletons lose all their original feats when they become undead, so there's really nothing left to regain...:P If so, how exactly does it work? Do I choose all feats as if I were building a character or just choose all six based on his current statistics? I think you go with the 1st choice, but do not reassign feats lost to earlier HD.:P
Navigator 11-02-06, 10:54 PM	Just curious, what undead are you planning on awakening? I awakened two Horned Devil Skeletons. I think you have it backwards. Say you cast awaken undead on a 2HD skeleton. It will not get the feat it missed from its 1st HD, but when it takes a class lv(3HD), it can take a feat at this point if it qualifies for it. So they gain XP? That opens up a whole other can o' worms that I'm not sure I wanna get into, but if that's the case... What level do they count as? I mean, you can't be sane and say that a 15 HD skeleton is the same as a 15th level character. They would, in theory, have their own character wealth, which means your DM will hate you. Forever. Depending on how many awakened undead you have, you'll never, ever level again. Say you have 20 1HD skeletons, which is very, very easy to do. You mean to tell me that you split the XP 21 ways between yourself and your skeletons? I very much doubt that's what the rules intended. Otherwise casting this spell would clearly be more of a detriment than a benefit.
runestar 11-03-06, 01:23 AM	How are awakened undead treated gamewise? Are they companions? Cohorts? I am not sure about the spell, so I was going off the awaken spell.:embarrass
ninja1 11-03-06, 09:38 AM	Ok, I'll try to break this down into steps... 1. Don't wait for your DM to give you corpses... go get them yourself. A great source is the Planar Binding chain of spells or the Gate spell. Beat the heck out of what you Called to you, and animate away. 2. Use animate dead, or better yet, Plague of Undeath... it is cheaper than animate dead but replicates its effects with the added benefit of creating the undead with maximum HP per HD. 3. Take advantage of every boost you can manage. Maxxx, when you say that you mean "without the use of Awaken Undead", I see that as similar to the analogy of... "wizards suck in battle... without the use of their best offensive spells". Awaken Undead, the Corpsecrafter chain of feats, a Desecrated shrine to your evil deity are Huge benefits... to not use them to me sounds like a fighter ditching his +5 sword while charging an enemy. 4. Now, undead created by Animate Dead occupy a special control quota for the caster. Awaken Undead does not remove them from that quota. Awakend Undead that you control via Animate Dead are not companions, cohorts, buddies... they are your undead slaves bound by the Animate Dead spell. They may be intelligent now, thanks to Awaken Undead, but that does not stop them from being your obedient, loyal, unerringly faithful, undying minions. 5. Awakened Undead do not gain xp.. do not rise in level. Now, that being said... there's nothing stoping a DM from House Ruling otherwise. NPC's do not gain xp unless the DM wants them to. That's when rule 0 comes into play, and the DM has full reign. 6. Awakened Undead are assigned feats and skill points based upon the fact that they are now intelligent undead. Undead Type: Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces. Features: An undead creature has the following features. —12-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 1/2 total Hit Dice (as wizard). —Good Will saves. —Skill points equal to (4 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the undead creature has an Intelligence score. However, many undead are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. Feats The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites. If we need a reason why or wonder how it is possible, then just say "It's Magic"... this is some powerful stuff here. Magic makes an otherwise mindless bag of bones, into something intelligent!! That's huge! why then is it such a stretch to imagine that magic also grants some of the byproduct of being an intelligent creature.. that being skill points and feats? The good news is, by RAW, Awakened Undead are intelligent undead and the Undead creature Type says they get skills and feats.... The bad news (for the OP) is that your DM is the final arbiter for your game... If he say's no, then that's it. No soup for you! Should I post some undead to show why I think they are not worthless? (I should probably put them in my sig...)
runestar 11-03-06, 09:39 PM	The good news is, by RAW, Awakened Undead are intelligent undead and the Undead creature Type says they get skills and feats.... I am not saying they don't, I am saying that they do not retroactively reclaim the feats/skill points they were not accrued by virtue of originally being a mindless undead.:)
PhaedrusXY 11-03-06, 10:44 PM	I am not saying they don't, I am saying that they do not retroactively reclaim the feats/skill points they were not accrued by virtue of originally being a mindless undead.:)They are not reclaiming anything. They get feats when they gain sentience. Having a mind grants them feats. Intelligent creatures have feats. Mindless ones don't. You're complicating things unneccessarily just because you want to "interpret" the rules in a restrictive fashion. How are awakened undead treated gamewise? Are they companions? Cohorts? I am not sure about the spell, so I was going off the awaken spell. They are controlled just like other undead created via Animate Dead (or whatever spell you created them with).Do awakened undead get their feats back, or not?The answer is: No. They don't gain their feats back. They do gain feats appropriate for their hit dice, however. These feats have nothing to do with the feats they had in life. There is absolutely nothing in the rules that indicates otherwise. Yes, this is a literal reading of the rules, which some people probably don't like. Take it for what you will.
ninja1 11-03-06, 11:00 PM	runestar, I am saying that there is no retroactivity (if that's a word?) involved. Just as the magic that makes them become intelligent creatures is not retroactively making them intelligent. The magic is actively making them intelligent undead. The magic that actively makes them intelligent undead, gives them 1 feat plus 1 per 3 Hit Die (as per the Undead Type). The magic that actively makes them intelligent undead, gives them skill points equal to (4 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die (as per the Undead Type). This is the cold, hard Game Mechanic aspect. Awaken Undead = Intelligent Undead Intelligent Undead = Feats and Skill Points If you would rather discuss the Flavor Text aspect, that's fine.. but the way I see it, we have two choices. 1. we use flavor text that supports the game mechanics. This maintains RAW, and allows us to discuss rules on an equal footing with other gamers across the intarweb. 2. we alter game mechanics to conform to flavor text that we prefer or find easier to justify with our sense of "realism". This becomes House Rules. While house rules are probably an important part in most games, they are not uniform across all players that frequent the boards to discuss, seek help, look for advice or ideas... (edit: damn, PhaedrusXY, you posted while I was composing mine! :) )
runestar 11-03-06, 11:02 PM	They are not reclaiming anything. They get feats when they gain sentience. Having a mind grants them feats. Intelligent creatures have feats. Mindless ones don't. You're complicating things unneccessarily just because you want to "interpret" the rules in a restrictive fashion. My version might seem restrictive, but that does not necessarily mean it is wrong. Conversely, you can rule in a certain manner that might seem more appealing for convenience sake, but that would not necessarily mean it was correct as per the RAW. They never had feats to start with(save for the bonus improved initiative). Why would they suddenly get feats just because of an int score? Incarnate golems don't get it retroactively as well...:confused:
PhaedrusXY 11-03-06, 11:06 PM	Incarnate golems don't get it retroactively as well...:confused:Do they not? I thought about bringing that up, but I couldn't remember if they did or not. I was thinking they did.
ninja1 11-03-06, 11:07 PM	Please forgive me, as I'm not very familiar with the golem analogy. I could look it up later, but I fear I am far too lazy (and sleepy) to look now. If I may take a stab at it, I would offer a guess that comparing golems to undead are like comparing apples to oranges. If Incarnate golems do not get similar things... It is probably because the Golem Type does not allow it... like the Undead Type does. That, and please refrain from using the word retroactively... besides hurting my fragile brain, it is not appropriate because I am not saying that the act of gaining skills or feat is retroactive. The are Actively gaining it as they are Actively gaining intelligence. ;)
PhaedrusXY 11-03-06, 11:09 PM	Using a spell in Savage Species, you can turn a golem into a living creature. It loses the construct type, and becomes a giant (I think). I am still at work, and can't check the book, but I thought they got feats when they underwent the transformation.
ninja1 11-03-06, 11:16 PM	wow, I'm soo tired that I wrote Golem Type when I should have entered Construct Type. :) Yeah, I'm gonna pass out soon... But first, I overcame my lazyness temorarily and here is what I found: Spell Compendium, page 21, Awaken Construct.. (See MM 290 for information on skills and feats the creature gains). So, awakened constructs GAIN skill and feats. (please don't say retroactivly gain... I beg you!) Monster Manual, page 290: Construct, Skill Points 2 +Int mod per HD. All types have a number of feats equal to 1 +1 per 3 Hit Dice.
PhaedrusXY 11-03-06, 11:18 PM	That's what I thought. Too bad they didn't go ahead and point that out explicitly in the Awaken Undead spell, or even Awaken (for plants).
runestar 11-03-06, 11:21 PM	At least according to this article, the sample incarnate flesh golem fighter1 only gained skill points and the bonus feat from his 1st lv of fighter. It did not get any feats/skill points as should be accrued from its racial HD. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20040904a Perhaps this was what they meant?:confused:
ninja1 11-03-06, 11:21 PM	Oh god, please don't make me look up plants... must... get... sleep... ;)
ninja1 11-03-06, 11:24 PM	At least according to this article, the sample incarnate flesh golem fighter1 only gained skill points and the bonus feat from his 1st lv of fighter. It did not get any feats/skill points as should be accrued from its racial HD. dude guy! that article was written on 09/04/2004... Holy 3.0 Stuffs Batman!
Navigator 11-04-06, 05:12 AM	I'd also like to point out that the text of the Libris Mortis version of the spell specifically states that the creature does not gain feats, but the SC version neglects any mention of feats. Assuming the authors knew what they were doing (which at this point, I'm never absolutely certain of), they meant for the undead to "actively" gain feats, as according the undead type. 1. Don't wait for your DM to give you corpses... go get them yourself. A great source is the Planar Binding chain of spells or the Gate spell. Beat the heck out of what you Called to you, and animate away. Believe me, I make good use of Planar Binding. I'm already getting the evil eye from my DM because of how much I use it. These particular Horned Devils corpses were just sort of available after a fight, and they were very good candidates (fast healing 5 = I never have to worry about healing them). :) They do gain feats appropriate for their hit dice, however. These feats have nothing to do with the feats they had in life. This is really the answer I'm looking for. The rules also seem to back it up. Even if they don't get back exactly what they had in life, the difference between feats and no feats is significant. I think we've all that is sufficient to give my DM a heart-attack. That is, of course, unless anyone can refute PhaedrusXY. 1. we use flavor text that supports the game mechanics. Errata for Awaken Undead? :P
runestar 11-04-06, 07:00 AM	This is really the answer I'm looking for. The rules also seem to back it up. Even if they don't get back exactly what they had in life, the difference between feats and no feats is significant. So you mean if you cast awaken undead on a skeleton with say, 12 HD, it will somehow magically gain access to 5 feats all of a sudden?:confused: That seems kind of far fetched, even by dnd standards...
Drachasor 11-04-06, 11:32 AM	So you mean if you cast awaken undead on a skeleton with say, 12 HD, it will somehow magically gain access to 5 feats all of a sudden?:confused: That seems kind of far fetched, even by dnd standards... To be fair, so does suddenly given it intelligence and a personality. Afterall, it isn't like it starts out with an infant level intelligence and takes time to develop into a properly sentient being. It's just "poof", it's fully sentient. -Drachasor
Rundor The Mighty 11-05-06, 09:29 PM	The spell compendium tells you to treat them as having levels in the warrior npc class (unless the dm wants to give them different levels). So it seems they would have feats, 2 + int skills per level, and FULL ATTACK BONUS.
Ashheart 12-05-06, 04:54 AM	Even though it is completly beside the point when your talking about skeletons, you should look into the Awakend Spawn prestige class from Savage Species. This allows for a creature that has become a spawn by say a shadow or other undead creature to regain their original class abilities while also gaining turn resistence. You could choose to use something like it for all awakend undead, slowly letting them gain their old feat and skills. Your skeletons could gain the class as your followers (by using Leadership) and then getting their lost abilities and feats back.
aotrscommander 12-05-06, 10:47 AM	The answer is: No. They don't gain their feats back. They do gain feats appropriate for their hit dice, however. These feats have nothing to do with the feats they had in life. There is absolutely nothing in the rules that indicates otherwise. Yes, this is a literal reading of the rules, which some people probably don't like. Take it for what you will. I concur. That was my reading distilled from both versions. (I did send off an email to cust serve when the question arose in the FAQ (but the answer in the FAQ only addresses the Lib Mort version); never got anything back, though!) This answer also fits with my conception of animated Undead, in that apart from weapon/armour proficienies (which I attribute to spell-retrieved psychic imprints that form the basic, robot-like 'progamming' of the Animating spell), there is nothing left of the original soul within, and therefore Awaken basically creates a 'new' intelligence.
meta 12-05-06, 02:56 PM	So you mean if you cast awaken undead on a skeleton with say, 12 HD, it will somehow magically gain access to 5 feats all of a sudden?:confused: That seems kind of far fetched, even by dnd standards... In my games, Awaken Undead gives undead the *potential* to learn feats. A 1st level Human has two feat slots, but in my world, it takes time to actually learn them. The same is true at 3rd level, 6th, etc. Just because you *can* learn a feat doesn't mean you have - role play the activities involved, and you get the feat. Same rationale applies to Awakened Undead - they don't instantly acquire 5 feats - they instantly acquire the potential to learn five feats. It might take them 6 months to learn them all, but so what - they will be around forever (until some judgemental pelor-worshipping freak decides to enforce their personal idea of what is "evil" on the poor maligned misunderstood awakened undead). P.S. I also allow Awakened Undead to gain XP and level, but they take serious XP penalties when they are under the control of someone else (they only gain 10-50% of their eligible XP - my rationale being that the domination effect involved in being controlled takes away too much of their ability to learn). Of course, when the creator releases them (when they create new undead that exceed the 4*L limit), the undead can level normally.
meta 12-05-06, 03:00 PM	I am not saying they don't, I am saying that they do not retroactively reclaim the feats/skill points they were not accrued by virtue of originally being a mindless undead.:) I'm in total agreement with everyone who has clarified that the Awakened Undead do NOT retroactively gain feats - they just have the potential to learn feats now that they are intelligent. For those of you who are all keen about retroactive skills/feats, use Bone Creatures and Corpse Creatures from the Book of Vile Darkness. They are skeletons/zombies that maintain their feats, skills and abilities (but need to be created with Create Undead or Greater Create Undead). Personally I'm not a fan of them, as they take away some of the flavour of what make undead neat, but they may float your boat.
ninja1 12-06-06, 09:29 AM	I just wanted to say that I completely agree with those that wrote that they hate using the word "retro-actively"... ...oh wait, that was just me... yeah, I agree with me. :D Undead actively gain feats and skill points with Awaken Undead.