Awaken Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Awaken Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thegans
03-17-07, 02:03 PM I noticed the spell Awaken Undead in Libris Mortis and I am trying to figure out something. The spell gives an uninteligent undead an intelligent score, the armor and weapon proficencies they had, and extraordinary abilities they had in life.

The spell says it makes mindless undead sentient but I am not one hundred percent sure how. Would the undead simply gain a new sentience where it has basic knowledge and no memory or would it regain its past mind and memory.

I am wondering this becuase of the following things.

If you look at the spell Revive Undead in Libris Mortis it mentions that the undeads animating spirit must be willing to return. Then in Magic of Incarnum it mentions in the Incadescent Champion section that they dislike undead because it imprisons the soul.

Not exeryone agrees that creating an undead traps the persons soul but it does make sense since a mindless undead is bacially a simple version of a golem and the creation of a golem involves the trapping of a spirit.

Then there is the Speak with Dead spell.

"This spell does not let you actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse. The partially animated body retains the imprint of the soul that once inhabited it, and thus it can speak with all the knowledge that the creature had while alive. The corpse, however, cannot learn new information.

Indeed, it can’t even remember being questioned.

This spell does not affect a corpse that has been turned into an undead creature."

This means that a persons memory stays in their dead body until it is animated again. Also since souls apparently don't remember their mortal lives when they die the corpse is probably what hold the persons memory.

You could argue that the Speak with Dead thing does not matter becuase of the line that it does not affect undead. The thing is that most undead keep their inteligence. A lich for example has no soul in its body but still has its memories while a vampire probably also remembers its mortal life.

So I will ask my question again.

Should an Awakened Undead regain it's memory?
tarkin
03-17-07, 03:05 PM I would say no.

If you check in the Book of Exalted Deeds, there exists new template that is kind of a 'good' undead.

Also, the alignment change for vampires, etc. has certain spiritual implications.

I would say that while undead LOOK like and the creature that once occupied the body, in truth they are not them.

Using this interpretation, the undead types that 'remember' their life actually have FALSE memories.

This would be the "embodied demon" theory of vampires etc, popular in Buffy, and other shows, where when you die and become a Vampire, you are really dead and it is just a demon that looks like you and has access to your memories that is up and around and walking.

That is, a vampire is a demon that has been forced into the dead body of a person, wiping out it's original memories, and instead using those found in the dead body, thinking they are his own memories.

That explains why they are evil and will kill their old friends.
Seeker95
03-17-07, 03:10 PM Should an Awakened Undead regain it's memory?For simplicity and ease of play, I would just say no.
But I acknowledge a legitimate argument to the contrary.
HellflameArcanite
03-17-07, 03:14 PM I actually don't agree that the memories stay in the dead body. It notes the knowledge imprinted on the corpse, indicating that the memories left some kind of residue, or trail, or something that could be used to reconstruct them - with the right spell. If the mindless undead recieves sentience and memories, I would say those memories would be of its unlife, not its past life.
Thegans
03-17-07, 03:43 PM I would say no.

If you check in the Book of Exalted Deeds, there exists new template that is kind of a 'good' undead.

Also, the alignment change for vampires, etc. has certain spiritual implications.

I would say that while undead LOOK like and the creature that once occupied the body, in truth they are not them.

Using this interpretation, the undead types that 'remember' their life actually have FALSE memories.

This would be the "embodied demon" theory of vampires etc, popular in Buffy, and other shows, where when you die and become a Vampire, you are really dead and it is just a demon that looks like you and has access to your memories that is up and around and walking.

That is, a vampire is a demon that has been forced into the dead body of a person, wiping out it's original memories, and instead using those found in the dead body, thinking they are his own memories.

That explains why they are evil and will kill their old friends.

The demon theory does make sense. Also if the theory is a demon or a devil then its entirely possible that the memories could simply be stolen in the process of having the soul replaced.

Then again the idea of a vampire being willing to kill its old friends makes sense. They don't really have a choice since they are under the control of the vampire that created them until they are freed. The vampire could very easily learn to hate its old friends or to simply view them as food.
Soltares
03-17-07, 05:52 PM I'd go with no. If you Awaken an animal or plant (or construct), they don't have any pre-existing soul / memories to gain, but the spell is the template for Awaken Undead, so I'd say that it acts the same.

Depending on the setting, the 'soul' of a mindless undead may already be in the hands of the appropriate diety (Lathandar, Pelor, etc.) and I seriously doubt this spell is going to snatch these souls away from their patron dieties...
ElIsRa
03-17-07, 09:05 PM I would aurgue no as well. Although not for the same reasons as others have given. I would say that the initial act of animation distroyed any imprint that the soul of the subject might have left, and infact, that 'imprint' actually fuels animation process. This would explain both why Speak with Dead doesn't work on those that have been animanted and why one can not re-Animate Dead.
Decinious
03-18-07, 12:06 PM I am firmly in the camp of the Soul is completely separate from the body so Animate Dead does not trap the soul. I would also treat Awaken Undead as creating a completely new intelligent being, otherwise you run into issues with it being cheaper to just revive your party members as undead 50gp per hp and 200 xp would almost always be cheaper then 5000gp diamond for raise dead. Now, if someone altered create undead, added in an extra 5000 gp material component, and the soul of character was willing to return as an Undead knowing full well what was in store for it, I would allow the original soul to return as the undead being.
PhaedrusXY
03-18-07, 12:24 PM I've always been of the opinion that mindless undead do not have a soul. They are simply "machines" fueled by negative energy. Undead that have minds however do have souls. In some cases (vampires, liches, etc), that soul is clearly the soul of the original creature.

In other cases (awakened undead that were originally non-sentient), I could see arguing that they don't have the original soul (as it is already in its afterlife). In cases like this, the soul is probably that of some evil person who (temporarily) avoids the punishment of their afterlife by allowing themselves to be imprisoned in an undead body by a necromancer. In this case, I think the newly awakened undead should get feats and skills appropriate for it, but not (necessarily) those that were possessed by the original, living, creature.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thegans 03-17-07, 02:03 PM	I noticed the spell Awaken Undead in Libris Mortis and I am trying to figure out something. The spell gives an uninteligent undead an intelligent score, the armor and weapon proficencies they had, and extraordinary abilities they had in life. The spell says it makes mindless undead sentient but I am not one hundred percent sure how. Would the undead simply gain a new sentience where it has basic knowledge and no memory or would it regain its past mind and memory. I am wondering this becuase of the following things. If you look at the spell Revive Undead in Libris Mortis it mentions that the undeads animating spirit must be willing to return. Then in Magic of Incarnum it mentions in the Incadescent Champion section that they dislike undead because it imprisons the soul. Not exeryone agrees that creating an undead traps the persons soul but it does make sense since a mindless undead is bacially a simple version of a golem and the creation of a golem involves the trapping of a spirit. Then there is the Speak with Dead spell. "This spell does not let you actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse. The partially animated body retains the imprint of the soul that once inhabited it, and thus it can speak with all the knowledge that the creature had while alive. The corpse, however, cannot learn new information. Indeed, it can’t even remember being questioned. This spell does not affect a corpse that has been turned into an undead creature." This means that a persons memory stays in their dead body until it is animated again. Also since souls apparently don't remember their mortal lives when they die the corpse is probably what hold the persons memory. You could argue that the Speak with Dead thing does not matter becuase of the line that it does not affect undead. The thing is that most undead keep their inteligence. A lich for example has no soul in its body but still has its memories while a vampire probably also remembers its mortal life. So I will ask my question again. Should an Awakened Undead regain it's memory?
tarkin 03-17-07, 03:05 PM	I would say no. If you check in the Book of Exalted Deeds, there exists new template that is kind of a 'good' undead. Also, the alignment change for vampires, etc. has certain spiritual implications. I would say that while undead LOOK like and the creature that once occupied the body, in truth they are not them. Using this interpretation, the undead types that 'remember' their life actually have FALSE memories. This would be the "embodied demon" theory of vampires etc, popular in Buffy, and other shows, where when you die and become a Vampire, you are really dead and it is just a demon that looks like you and has access to your memories that is up and around and walking. That is, a vampire is a demon that has been forced into the dead body of a person, wiping out it's original memories, and instead using those found in the dead body, thinking they are his own memories. That explains why they are evil and will kill their old friends.
Seeker95 03-17-07, 03:10 PM	Should an Awakened Undead regain it's memory?For simplicity and ease of play, I would just say no. But I acknowledge a legitimate argument to the contrary.
HellflameArcanite 03-17-07, 03:14 PM	I actually don't agree that the memories stay in the dead body. It notes the knowledge imprinted on the corpse, indicating that the memories left some kind of residue, or trail, or something that could be used to reconstruct them - with the right spell. If the mindless undead recieves sentience and memories, I would say those memories would be of its unlife, not its past life.
Thegans 03-17-07, 03:43 PM	I would say no. If you check in the Book of Exalted Deeds, there exists new template that is kind of a 'good' undead. Also, the alignment change for vampires, etc. has certain spiritual implications. I would say that while undead LOOK like and the creature that once occupied the body, in truth they are not them. Using this interpretation, the undead types that 'remember' their life actually have FALSE memories. This would be the "embodied demon" theory of vampires etc, popular in Buffy, and other shows, where when you die and become a Vampire, you are really dead and it is just a demon that looks like you and has access to your memories that is up and around and walking. That is, a vampire is a demon that has been forced into the dead body of a person, wiping out it's original memories, and instead using those found in the dead body, thinking they are his own memories. That explains why they are evil and will kill their old friends. The demon theory does make sense. Also if the theory is a demon or a devil then its entirely possible that the memories could simply be stolen in the process of having the soul replaced. Then again the idea of a vampire being willing to kill its old friends makes sense. They don't really have a choice since they are under the control of the vampire that created them until they are freed. The vampire could very easily learn to hate its old friends or to simply view them as food.
Soltares 03-17-07, 05:52 PM	I'd go with no. If you Awaken an animal or plant (or construct), they don't have any pre-existing soul / memories to gain, but the spell is the template for Awaken Undead, so I'd say that it acts the same. Depending on the setting, the 'soul' of a mindless undead may already be in the hands of the appropriate diety (Lathandar, Pelor, etc.) and I seriously doubt this spell is going to snatch these souls away from their patron dieties...
ElIsRa 03-17-07, 09:05 PM	I would aurgue no as well. Although not for the same reasons as others have given. I would say that the initial act of animation distroyed any imprint that the soul of the subject might have left, and infact, that 'imprint' actually fuels animation process. This would explain both why Speak with Dead doesn't work on those that have been animanted and why one can not re-Animate Dead.
Decinious 03-18-07, 12:06 PM	I am firmly in the camp of the Soul is completely separate from the body so Animate Dead does not trap the soul. I would also treat Awaken Undead as creating a completely new intelligent being, otherwise you run into issues with it being cheaper to just revive your party members as undead 50gp per hp and 200 xp would almost always be cheaper then 5000gp diamond for raise dead. Now, if someone altered create undead, added in an extra 5000 gp material component, and the soul of character was willing to return as an Undead knowing full well what was in store for it, I would allow the original soul to return as the undead being.
PhaedrusXY 03-18-07, 12:24 PM	I've always been of the opinion that mindless undead do not have a soul. They are simply "machines" fueled by negative energy. Undead that have minds however do have souls. In some cases (vampires, liches, etc), that soul is clearly the soul of the original creature. In other cases (awakened undead that were originally non-sentient), I could see arguing that they don't have the original soul (as it is already in its afterlife). In cases like this, the soul is probably that of some evil person who (temporarily) avoids the punishment of their afterlife by allowing themselves to be imprisoned in an undead body by a necromancer. In this case, I think the newly awakened undead should get feats and skills appropriate for it, but not (necessarily) those that were possessed by the original, living, creature.