Awakened druid? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Awakened druid? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sacred Mesa
09-07-04, 03:48 PM Steps:

1. druid wildshape in an animal
2. casts awaken on himself
3. go back to humanoid form
4. 1,2 and 3 again

What stops that from happenning? (he gains HD and CHA)

Awaken transforms him in an magical beast, but he goes back to humanoid and animal because of the wildshape... will he get the augmented subtype? get from there on the magical beast type instead of the animal type? What happen with this druid? I know this is not infinite but how should this stop?
Lanoitakude
09-07-04, 03:53 PM Even if we assume this can work, a druid wouldn't be able to pull it off 'till he's lvl 24 or so. The casting time on Awaken is 24 hours, and Wildshape lasts for 1 hour/druid level.

If I were DM, I'd say "no, you can't do this, it doesn't make any sense.". Think about it, the purpose of the spell is to give an unintellegent animal or plant sentience.
Seeker95
09-07-04, 04:21 PM What stops that from happening?A DM with an intelligence of greater than 3. :D
Gemstone
09-07-04, 04:27 PM To prevent this, I would allow it and let the druid be STUCK in his animal form and slowly lose his druid abilities... But that's just me ^_^
Razorblade Smile
09-07-04, 04:38 PM Although I've heard people (read: munchkins) argue it, my logic is thus: The spell Awaken does two things to an animal. 1) It increases their hit die. Since a druid doesn't gain the HD of the animal form he assumes, nothing happens. 2) It increases their Charisma. Since a druid retains his own Charisma, not that of the animal, his Charisma is not affected.

The munchkin's argument is that Wild Shape turns them into an animal, thus the spell affects them just as if they were an animal. By the rules, that's probably correct. But the rules can :censored: most of the time when munchkindom is involved.
tmagann
09-07-04, 07:06 PM If you read the spell, it affects animals and trees. Animals are of the 'animal' type, trees don't get a type until after the spell succeeds, then it's 'plant.

Either way, an intelligent animal is not an animal, but an magical beast (augemented animal). And that's what the druid changes into.

So, unless the target is a normal animal or non-typed Tree, the spell wouldn't work. That also prevents you from making a super wolf, come to that.
Sacred Mesa
09-07-04, 07:32 PM Well i don't have my books with me, but i remember that wild shape makes you of the type of creature you are transforming into (animal), and doesn't say anything about the augmented subtype, does they get it? i don't remember where it says that. IF you become an animal, then the spell can be used on you...

So, unless the target is a normal animal or non-typed Tree, the spell wouldn't work. That also prevents you from making a super wolf, come to that.

And you can not make a super wolf with the spell, since the spell DOES say that the animal changes type to magical beast.
tmagann
09-07-04, 07:51 PM Wel, the wildshape/spell description wasn't ALL I read. I also read in the MM on page 36 where it says 'no creature with Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal".

So, to resolve things, I read the spell in question, Awaken, and noticed mention of the 'augmented animal' subtype, and used it to resolve an appparent rules conflict.

Druids in animal shape have an Int over 3, so that can't be true animal. 'Augmented' seems to solve everything, doesn't it?
Simetrical
09-07-04, 07:54 PM Originally posted by tmagann
Either way, an intelligent animal is not an animal, but an magical beast (augemented animal). And that's what the druid changes into.Really? Where is this rule that states that anything with an Intelligence score of 3 or greater becomes a magical beast (augmented animal)? There are several specific effects that state that, sure, but not all of them do, and official sources (e.g., Skip's Rules of the Game) seem to indicate that you turn into an animal (augmented humanoid). Apparently, the line about no animals with 3+ Intelligence only applies to animals that weren't originally of a different type.

Anyway, I think I'd just house-rule awaken to only affect unintelligent creatures. I mean, come on.
Sacred Mesa
09-07-04, 08:09 PM Wel, the wildshape/spell description wasn't ALL I read. I also read in the MM on page 36 where it says 'no creature with Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal".

Yes, you are right, and i would rule it the same, but that is a house rule.

I cannot find in the book anything to rule this (and there should be).
tmagann
09-07-04, 08:14 PM Page 306 of the Monster Manual, mostly, under the augmented sub type notes. It can't be an animal, because of the high Int (also 306, animal type).

The subtype is used when something happens to change the original type. Such as more intelligence than the type allows. Like the Awaken spell does, come to that.

I have no idea what Skip Williams may have said, just what the MM and PHB say. An intelligent animal is type(subtype) Magical Beast (Augmented Animal).

And, as you say, Wildshape give the type. But, if you read the Poly Spell, it also gives the subtype.
tmagann
09-07-04, 08:32 PM Yes, you are right, and i would rule it the same, but that is a house rule.

I cannot find in the book anything to rule this (and there should be).

Actually, there's a LOT in the books. Besides page 306 of the MM, and the Awaken spell, there is example after example: Familairs, Mounts, even companions are all Magical Beasts. ANY change from pure animal status seems to make the animal a magical beast.

A line from the MM that seems to the point (well, to me) "A creature with th augmented subtype usually has the traits of it's current type, but the features of the original type." It them gives the example of a familiar: Looks like an animal, but has the traits of a magical beast.

Sounds like a druid to me (or anything under a Poly spell): Looks like an animal, but is much more.
dirkformica
09-07-04, 08:50 PM Well if the sticking point is a character shapechanged into an animal with an intelligence higher than 3 wouldn’t count as strictly an “Animal” for type purposes, what happens if you create a cooperative scenario using Feeblemind, Polymorph, Awaken and Heal? Feeblemind is cast on a character who voluntarily fails the saving throw. This is followed by Polymorph. Since the caster chooses the type to transform the creature into, it would now be an Animal with a 1 intelligence. A druid now casts Awaken on the character using that feat (sorry I don’t have the book, or remember what it’s called) that changes the casting time on spells so that it now only takes a standard action. Polymorph expires or the caster dismisses it. The character is now back to normal form, but still Feebleminded. The Druid then casts Heal, and all should be back to normal, except the character should probably now gain all the effects of Awaken.

Certainly much more roundabout, but it seems doable. It would take the outside sources of a Wizard and a Druid (or whatever classes could be used to cast the above spells,) so it’s not nearly as easy as simply casting Awaken on yourself, but it still results in bonuses.
tmagann
09-07-04, 09:12 PM Well, the first problem is getting the Poly spell to last 24 hours. It's a minute per caster level.

You could use Poly Any Object, which would negate the need for the Feeblemind, but when the spell ended (probably by Dispelling, as human to animal would be permanent) the subject would revert to the original Intelligence, I would think (definitely if Break Enchantment or another Poly Any was used). It changes Int to fit the form, after all.

That's a lot of work for 2HD as an animal (and rather few skill points) and Charisma that could be gotten from a magic book. But possible, I suppose.

Now you've made the character ECL +2. Don't you have to pay for it? wouldn't you get more from your exp by just going up in class levels?.
Razorblade Smile
09-07-04, 10:17 PM Awaken's duration is not an issue. If some munchkin were interested in this, they'd have taken the Rapid Spell feat (Complete Divine) to reduce the casting time of Awaken to one hour.
Seeker95
09-07-04, 10:35 PM Razorblade Smile is right on this. The means of accomplishing what Sacred Mesa suggests is not stoppable "within the rules" (with the exception of house rule interpretations -- still perfectly legitimate, of course). Rather the means of stopping the awakened sruid is to recognize it for what it is: munchkin attempts to abuse a perceived loophole. The DM should simply say no. If the player insists, smack him or her with the lightest core rulebook within reach.
darkwave
09-08-04, 01:40 AM I had a similar question about Awaken (but it was related more to Empowering and perhaps Maximizing it for trees - beware the coming of the age of trees: Empower/Maximized/Awakened Saplings become Druids, gain a couple levels and raise another batch of Empower/Maximized/Awakened Saplings who become Druids... With a rod of maximize (divine) they don't even have to quite go epic). It sounds like an official call on this spell would be GREAT. I have one question in already and don't want to seem like a Nervous-Nelly (in spite of it all being of the same action of PCs). So who's up for making a rational yet friendly request for CLEARIFICATION of the spell and its special ability to be abused for this case? :D
Seeker95
09-08-04, 08:03 AM So who's up for making a rational yet friendly request for CLEARIFICATION of the spell and its special ability to be abused for this case?Not me. I don't need a clarification. I relay on my campaign's DM (me) to provide such clarity.

By the way, your tree agenda *could* work.
And makes for an interesting twist.
(Not sure I'd use the metamagic stuff, but it could happen.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sacred Mesa 09-07-04, 03:48 PM	Steps: 1. druid wildshape in an animal 2. casts awaken on himself 3. go back to humanoid form 4. 1,2 and 3 again What stops that from happenning? (he gains HD and CHA) Awaken transforms him in an magical beast, but he goes back to humanoid and animal because of the wildshape... will he get the augmented subtype? get from there on the magical beast type instead of the animal type? What happen with this druid? I know this is not infinite but how should this stop?
Lanoitakude 09-07-04, 03:53 PM	Even if we assume this can work, a druid wouldn't be able to pull it off 'till he's lvl 24 or so. The casting time on Awaken is 24 hours, and Wildshape lasts for 1 hour/druid level. If I were DM, I'd say "no, you can't do this, it doesn't make any sense.". Think about it, the purpose of the spell is to give an unintellegent animal or plant sentience.
Seeker95 09-07-04, 04:21 PM	What stops that from happening?A DM with an intelligence of greater than 3. :D
Gemstone 09-07-04, 04:27 PM	To prevent this, I would allow it and let the druid be STUCK in his animal form and slowly lose his druid abilities... But that's just me ^_^
Razorblade Smile 09-07-04, 04:38 PM	Although I've heard people (read: munchkins) argue it, my logic is thus: The spell Awaken does two things to an animal. 1) It increases their hit die. Since a druid doesn't gain the HD of the animal form he assumes, nothing happens. 2) It increases their Charisma. Since a druid retains his own Charisma, not that of the animal, his Charisma is not affected. The munchkin's argument is that Wild Shape turns them into an animal, thus the spell affects them just as if they were an animal. By the rules, that's probably correct. But the rules can :censored: most of the time when munchkindom is involved.
tmagann 09-07-04, 07:06 PM	If you read the spell, it affects animals and trees. Animals are of the 'animal' type, trees don't get a type until after the spell succeeds, then it's 'plant. Either way, an intelligent animal is not an animal, but an magical beast (augemented animal). And that's what the druid changes into. So, unless the target is a normal animal or non-typed Tree, the spell wouldn't work. That also prevents you from making a super wolf, come to that.
Sacred Mesa 09-07-04, 07:32 PM	Well i don't have my books with me, but i remember that wild shape makes you of the type of creature you are transforming into (animal), and doesn't say anything about the augmented subtype, does they get it? i don't remember where it says that. IF you become an animal, then the spell can be used on you... So, unless the target is a normal animal or non-typed Tree, the spell wouldn't work. That also prevents you from making a super wolf, come to that. And you can not make a super wolf with the spell, since the spell DOES say that the animal changes type to magical beast.
tmagann 09-07-04, 07:51 PM	Wel, the wildshape/spell description wasn't ALL I read. I also read in the MM on page 36 where it says 'no creature with Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal". So, to resolve things, I read the spell in question, Awaken, and noticed mention of the 'augmented animal' subtype, and used it to resolve an appparent rules conflict. Druids in animal shape have an Int over 3, so that can't be true animal. 'Augmented' seems to solve everything, doesn't it?
Simetrical 09-07-04, 07:54 PM	Originally posted by tmagann Either way, an intelligent animal is not an animal, but an magical beast (augemented animal). And that's what the druid changes into.Really? Where is this rule that states that anything with an Intelligence score of 3 or greater becomes a magical beast (augmented animal)? There are several specific effects that state that, sure, but not all of them do, and official sources (e.g., Skip's Rules of the Game) seem to indicate that you turn into an animal (augmented humanoid). Apparently, the line about no animals with 3+ Intelligence only applies to animals that weren't originally of a different type. Anyway, I think I'd just house-rule awaken to only affect unintelligent creatures. I mean, come on.
Sacred Mesa 09-07-04, 08:09 PM	Wel, the wildshape/spell description wasn't ALL I read. I also read in the MM on page 36 where it says 'no creature with Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal". Yes, you are right, and i would rule it the same, but that is a house rule. I cannot find in the book anything to rule this (and there should be).
tmagann 09-07-04, 08:14 PM	Page 306 of the Monster Manual, mostly, under the augmented sub type notes. It can't be an animal, because of the high Int (also 306, animal type). The subtype is used when something happens to change the original type. Such as more intelligence than the type allows. Like the Awaken spell does, come to that. I have no idea what Skip Williams may have said, just what the MM and PHB say. An intelligent animal is type(subtype) Magical Beast (Augmented Animal). And, as you say, Wildshape give the type. But, if you read the Poly Spell, it also gives the subtype.
tmagann 09-07-04, 08:32 PM	Yes, you are right, and i would rule it the same, but that is a house rule. I cannot find in the book anything to rule this (and there should be). Actually, there's a LOT in the books. Besides page 306 of the MM, and the Awaken spell, there is example after example: Familairs, Mounts, even companions are all Magical Beasts. ANY change from pure animal status seems to make the animal a magical beast. A line from the MM that seems to the point (well, to me) "A creature with th augmented subtype usually has the traits of it's current type, but the features of the original type." It them gives the example of a familiar: Looks like an animal, but has the traits of a magical beast. Sounds like a druid to me (or anything under a Poly spell): Looks like an animal, but is much more.
dirkformica 09-07-04, 08:50 PM	Well if the sticking point is a character shapechanged into an animal with an intelligence higher than 3 wouldn’t count as strictly an “Animal” for type purposes, what happens if you create a cooperative scenario using Feeblemind, Polymorph, Awaken and Heal? Feeblemind is cast on a character who voluntarily fails the saving throw. This is followed by Polymorph. Since the caster chooses the type to transform the creature into, it would now be an Animal with a 1 intelligence. A druid now casts Awaken on the character using that feat (sorry I don’t have the book, or remember what it’s called) that changes the casting time on spells so that it now only takes a standard action. Polymorph expires or the caster dismisses it. The character is now back to normal form, but still Feebleminded. The Druid then casts Heal, and all should be back to normal, except the character should probably now gain all the effects of Awaken. Certainly much more roundabout, but it seems doable. It would take the outside sources of a Wizard and a Druid (or whatever classes could be used to cast the above spells,) so it’s not nearly as easy as simply casting Awaken on yourself, but it still results in bonuses.
tmagann 09-07-04, 09:12 PM	Well, the first problem is getting the Poly spell to last 24 hours. It's a minute per caster level. You could use Poly Any Object, which would negate the need for the Feeblemind, but when the spell ended (probably by Dispelling, as human to animal would be permanent) the subject would revert to the original Intelligence, I would think (definitely if Break Enchantment or another Poly Any was used). It changes Int to fit the form, after all. That's a lot of work for 2HD as an animal (and rather few skill points) and Charisma that could be gotten from a magic book. But possible, I suppose. Now you've made the character ECL +2. Don't you have to pay for it? wouldn't you get more from your exp by just going up in class levels?.
Razorblade Smile 09-07-04, 10:17 PM	Awaken's duration is not an issue. If some munchkin were interested in this, they'd have taken the Rapid Spell feat (Complete Divine) to reduce the casting time of Awaken to one hour.
Seeker95 09-07-04, 10:35 PM	Razorblade Smile is right on this. The means of accomplishing what Sacred Mesa suggests is not stoppable "within the rules" (with the exception of house rule interpretations -- still perfectly legitimate, of course). Rather the means of stopping the awakened sruid is to recognize it for what it is: munchkin attempts to abuse a perceived loophole. The DM should simply say no. If the player insists, smack him or her with the lightest core rulebook within reach.
darkwave 09-08-04, 01:40 AM	I had a similar question about Awaken (but it was related more to Empowering and perhaps Maximizing it for trees - beware the coming of the age of trees: Empower/Maximized/Awakened Saplings become Druids, gain a couple levels and raise another batch of Empower/Maximized/Awakened Saplings who become Druids... With a rod of maximize (divine) they don't even have to quite go epic). It sounds like an official call on this spell would be GREAT. I have one question in already and don't want to seem like a Nervous-Nelly (in spite of it all being of the same action of PCs). So who's up for making a rational yet friendly request for CLEARIFICATION of the spell and its special ability to be abused for this case? :D
Seeker95 09-08-04, 08:03 AM	So who's up for making a rational yet friendly request for CLEARIFICATION of the spell and its special ability to be abused for this case?Not me. I don't need a clarification. I relay on my campaign's DM (me) to provide such clarity. By the way, your tree agenda could work. And makes for an interesting twist. (Not sure I'd use the metamagic stuff, but it could happen.)