Post/Author/DateTime	Post
happybeardmustdie 02-22-07, 01:07 AM	So, I've been wondering about Telekinesis and it's Combat Maneuver function. It allows for Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple or Trip using caster level as base attack and Int/Cha as ability modifier. What about Improved Bull Rush, Disarm, etc.? Do they add up? Also what about situational modifiers such as size? I find it hard to believe that a halfling wizard would be worse of than an Ogre mage using telekinesis to grapple. Also, a spell in the spell compendium, sonorous hum, eliminates the need to concentrate on the spell which sort of looks like 3 sonorous hums and 3 telekinesis spells would equal out to a round of 3 telekinesis combat maneuvers and the caster's normal actions. This becomes particularly disturbing when you are a Master of the Unseen Hand and can use telekinesis as a way to make a weapon perform a full attack all by itself or, in this case the 3 telekinesis worth of full attacks. If this has been touched upon before I would appreciate a point in the right direction. Otherwise, I would appreciate if someone considered this and got back to me on what they think this all means. Thank you for your time. And don't forget Happybeard must die.
SephDragoon 02-22-07, 09:01 AM	Except, the Master of the Unseen Hand can concentrate as a move action, that doesn't mean they can attack as a move action, but they could say, hold a grapple, not initiate one. These actions would still be standard actions, and attacking with a weapon would be a full round action. This doesn't change because of concentration.
Part-Human2 02-22-07, 01:04 PM	Except, the Master of the Unseen Hand can concentrate as a move action, that doesn't mean they can attack as a move action, but they could say, hold a grapple, not initiate one. These actions would still be standard actions, and attacking with a weapon would be a full round action. This doesn't change because of concentration. Check out the Master of the Unseen Hand thread on the Optimization Board (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=409126) where the concensus is the opposite of your interpretation.
SephDragoon 02-22-07, 01:18 PM	Check out the Master of the Unseen Hand thread on the Optimization Board (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=409126) where the concensus is the opposite of your interpretation. You mean munchkin central? This si the same board that came up with Pun Pun, I'll stick to my interpretation.
mvincent 02-22-07, 03:38 PM	What about Improved Bull Rush, Disarm, etc.? Do they add up?Ask your DM. Assuming you had some justification (like having practiced with it a bit), I don't see why not. Also what about situational modifiers such as size? You own size does not matter, as you are not using your own body.
TheCobra 02-22-07, 04:20 PM	You own size does not matter, as you are not using your own body. That's the logical interpretation, but it's not so clear in the RAW. From the SRD: Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). It doesn't say anything about size no longer mattering. Of course, it also doesn't say you can start a grapple without moving into your opponent's space (as you normally have to).
Part-Human2 02-22-07, 04:22 PM	You mean munchkin central? This si the same board that came up with Pun Pun, I'll stick to my interpretation. Why are you insulting a large group of posters because some posters find ambiguous or poorly written rules and decide to share it on an official WotC forum?
mvincent 02-22-07, 05:23 PM	Why are you insulting a large group of posters because some posters find ambiguous or poorly written rules and decide to share it on an official WotC forum?That's assuming you take "munchkin" to be a derogative term. I personally do not since it is often used to mean "power-gamer" or "rules-lawyer", which I find complimentary because it is denoting both skill and effort. However, the term originally meant a young-ish player. This seems ironic since SephDragoon's posts had often seemed young-ish to me (this is not meant to be an insult, merely an observation).
SephDragoon 02-22-07, 08:53 PM	Why are you insulting a large group of posters because some posters find ambiguous or poorly written rules and decide to share it on an official WotC forum? How is this any different than that? Sorry, but it was never intended for you to get free full attack actions. This is poor interpretation, that is all. And don't think i have any biased, in my current campaign I DO play a Master of the Unseen Hand, who uses this ability quite often. I don't need to break the game, doing so is rather childish. I will however maximize my potential, but not through hazing up the rules. mvincent, if you mean young as in not having played a long time, then no, I really haven't I only started playing when I got in college, and I am just about 22 now. I was never a 2nd edition vet or anything. I don't take offense, so long as you aren't trying to call me immature or anything, which it doesn't seem you are.
Archtyrant Terevoth 02-24-07, 09:41 AM	You mean munchkin central? This si the same board that came up with Pun Pun, I'll stick to my interpretation. Yeah, I would tend to agree, the Char Op boards tend to interpret stuff in the most favorable way possible for them, ignoring sane interpretations in favor of stuff that breaks the game better.