Bag of Holding ?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bag of Holding ?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RTNNS
02-25-06, 11:37 AM At the bottem of a flooded mine shaft we located a large mound of GP & SP
We have water breathing spells to take care of us. When we noted to the DM that we open the our bag of holding, he told us that it just filled with water.. I said that was ok, and that we just filled it with coin. on the offset that the coin would displace the water. He beleves that the bag will be over loaded.

My question is would a bag of holding automatily fill with water or do you have to will the water in ?
Seeker95
02-25-06, 04:35 PM Yes, your bag of holding would automatically fill with water. And, technically, there would be no more room in the bag for you to put any coins. As soon as you tried to put one coin in, the bag would rupture.

Then again, I am not overly fond of arguments that require starting with the word technically. :D
ReverendCow
02-25-06, 05:44 PM How much money do you have on you at the moment (in game?) Do you have access to teleportation magic? If so, teleport to the nearest town and buy several empty sacks/barrels/chests and a wand of reduce object. Shrink the sacks/barrels/chests down and put them in your pocket. Teleport back. Unshrink said items. Fill them with gold and silver. Reshrink. Put them back in your pocket. Get out of the water. Unshrink. Go on a shopping spree.
kalstrand
02-25-06, 05:48 PM It will simply take longer to load up the loot. Instead of being able to fill the BoH at the bottom you will have to fill regular bags and take them to the surface to put them in the BoH.
ReverendCow
02-25-06, 05:53 PM Air has mass, does it not? Then why doesn't it count against the capacity limits of a BoH? If putting an object into a BoH, above water, displaces the air to the outside of the bag, then why wouldn't it do the same for water? Seriously, go get a bucket FULL of water and try to put a brick in it.

I believe the correct term is: "Eureka!"
runestar
02-25-06, 09:56 PM Actually, what would happen if you held the bag upside down? Would the water outside be prevented from flowing into the bag by the air inside? If so, then just manually put the coins in. :)
Seeker95
02-25-06, 10:22 PM Air has mass, does it not? Then why doesn't it count against the capacity limits of a BoH?:doh: The limits of a bag of holding are based on weight.
ReverendCow
02-26-06, 07:57 AM :doh: The limits of a bag of holding are based on weight.

Okay, then. Lets figure this out. Let's assume it's a Type II for this exercise.

Bag Bag Weight Contents Weight Limit Contents Volume Limit Market Price
Type II 25 lb. 500 lb 70 cu. ft 5,000 gp

First of all, let's assume that this bag is empty to start with. Okay, so if one cubic foot of water weighs 62.4 lbs, then this bag would be filled to weight capacity with 8.013 cubic feet of water. So here's my question, would the water still be displaced out of the bag if, after inserting the item, the contents of the bag still weighed at or less than 500 lbs?
RTNNS
02-26-06, 11:08 AM Actually, what would happen if you held the bag upside down? Would the water outside be prevented from flowing into the bag by the air inside? If so, then just manually put the coins in. :)

Even If the bag was held upside down water could still enter the bag as the bag is a extral dimentional space and gravity dosn't seem matter.
ReverendCow
02-26-06, 11:52 AM Even If the bag was held upside down water could still enter the bag as the bag is a extral dimentional space and gravity dosn't seem matter.

Gravity may not matter, but boyancy does. Since water is heavier than air, the air wouldn't be able to move down, then up around the sides of the opening. Admittedly, depending on the depth and the amount of water pressure, the air would be somewhat compressed. You'd have to open the bag right-side up for it to fill with water.
ank
03-18-06, 11:14 PM If you read carefully under a bag of holding type one's decription it says that if you turn the bag inside out all the contents will empty out but the bag must be turned right side up to be used again. What im getting at here is that you should turn the bag inside out (thus loosing all the water) since there is now NO air and NO water in the extra-dimentionaly space it becomes a vacuum position the bag next to a majority of the loot and the bag will simply suck it in (along with some water). Repeat this process as often as neccesary by putting the gold/silver on nearby a nearby piece of dry land.
Seeker95
03-19-06, 07:42 AM turn the bag inside out (thus loosing all the water) since there is now NO air and NO water in the extra-dimentionaly space it becomes a vacuum position the bag next to a majority of the loot and the bag will simply suck it inIt "may" be a vacuum, but not on the same dimension as the treasure. It would have no effect on this dimension, and would not suck the treasure into it.
Tyrasius
03-19-06, 12:21 PM Air has mass, does it not? Then why doesn't it count against the capacity limits of a BoH? If putting an object into a BoH, above water, displaces the air to the outside of the bag, then why wouldn't it do the same for water? Seriously, go get a bucket FULL of water and try to put a brick in it.

I believe the correct term is: "Eureka!"

He has a point. Air has wheight. Therefore if you say the water counts, then so should the air. This means that all bags of holding, unless in a vacuum, wont work. That or oyu can say that the water and air are displaced, which makes sense. Just my opinion, seeker95, I look forward to your counterargument.
El Salvador
03-19-06, 01:04 PM as a DM, I'd just say that putting gold in would push the water out. what kind of DM would I be to say that a bag of holding just doesn't work in one of the situations that it is most helpful (ie, treasure gathering).

as far as the rules that have been expressed so far in this thread, the simplest way to do this, if your DM says its full of water, and that means you cant put gold in, is to turn it inside out, and then pick up the gold the way you might use an inside out bag to pick up dog waste in a park. Its really just that simple.

as far as the argument that putting more gold in will rupture the bag, this is just stupid. by this logic, the bag will rupture itself as soon as you opened it underwater, because after its full of water, more waterpressure will be pushing in to the already full bag. My response to this cunundrum is to go back and read what I typed first in this post :)
Seeker95
03-19-06, 05:03 PM by this logic, the bag will rupture itself as soon as you opened it underwater, because after its full of water, more waterpressure will be pushing in to the already full bag.Bingo.

Don't open your bag of holding underwater.
Seeker95
03-19-06, 05:06 PM He has a point. Air has weight. Therefore if you say the water counts, then so should the air. This means that all bags of holding, unless in a vacuum, wont work. Just my opinion, seeker95, I look forward to your counterargument.The "weight" of air is based on how much air is *above it*. The weight of water is based on the amount of water you have, not on its positional relation to the other water. Air may fill the bag, but it won't have more air on top of it with a center of gravity upon which it could be pushing. So no. Air doesn't count.
Wonton2006
03-19-06, 09:55 PM And then there's the fact that all of you are trying to apply real-world physics to D&D. If physics worked properly, then technically, when two people are grappling, and one is struck by a lightning bolt or shocking grasp, the other should get affected too. Well, he's not. Why not? Because it's magic and works in weird ways. Same with the bag of holding.

But I actually don't know what would happen in said situation, though in my opinion, the bag wouldn't fill up. :thinks:
Twilly
03-20-06, 04:30 AM Conclusion: Bag of Holding is great for putting out fires and emptying small bodies of water.

Q "Hey, where did the lake go?"
A "A group of adventurers with funny bags came by."
Q "What are they going to do with all that water?"
A "Flood a dungeon or something, it seems to decrease the number of encounters.
KirinDave
03-20-06, 12:08 PM It seems to me like in general, there would be a lot more fun things to do in a game than worry about the precise physics of your Bag of Holding, which has sketchy and poorly-understood physics to begin with.

I mean, sheesh. Ask your DM what he's really trying to accomplish here. Is it just to p0wn his players, or is there actually some kind of driving plot influence for this level of tedium.

Let's do a little excercise in Reductio Ad Absurdum:

Let's say that if you fill the bag with water, then add a single coin, it will rupture. Now, imagine the same bag in a sunny field on a pleasant afternoon. You place a 500lbs black sphere that takes 1 cubic foot of space into your bag. By the logic presented, it should rupture, because Air has tangible mass (the air in a Type II bag weighs around 5.5lbs) and our previous statement says that we cannot displace lighter mediums out of the container.

We have logically extended the example to a point where the Bag of Holding no longer functions like it specifically states that it does. Therefore, our original statement must be invalid.

Would a bag of holding simply burst if you opened it underwater though? The weight of water would rapidly exceed the weight capacity of the bag before the volume was filled, but I'd still say "no." Water only flows when there is no resistance, and it's not like extradimensional spaces follow any laws we can apply from the physical world anyways. Most importantly, it is Not Fun. Unless mitigating circumstances make it fun, but then I doubt this forum thread would exist.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RTNNS 02-25-06, 11:37 AM	At the bottem of a flooded mine shaft we located a large mound of GP & SP We have water breathing spells to take care of us. When we noted to the DM that we open the our bag of holding, he told us that it just filled with water.. I said that was ok, and that we just filled it with coin. on the offset that the coin would displace the water. He beleves that the bag will be over loaded. My question is would a bag of holding automatily fill with water or do you have to will the water in ?
Seeker95 02-25-06, 04:35 PM	Yes, your bag of holding would automatically fill with water. And, technically, there would be no more room in the bag for you to put any coins. As soon as you tried to put one coin in, the bag would rupture. Then again, I am not overly fond of arguments that require starting with the word technically. :D
ReverendCow 02-25-06, 05:44 PM	How much money do you have on you at the moment (in game?) Do you have access to teleportation magic? If so, teleport to the nearest town and buy several empty sacks/barrels/chests and a wand of reduce object. Shrink the sacks/barrels/chests down and put them in your pocket. Teleport back. Unshrink said items. Fill them with gold and silver. Reshrink. Put them back in your pocket. Get out of the water. Unshrink. Go on a shopping spree.
kalstrand 02-25-06, 05:48 PM	It will simply take longer to load up the loot. Instead of being able to fill the BoH at the bottom you will have to fill regular bags and take them to the surface to put them in the BoH.
ReverendCow 02-25-06, 05:53 PM	Air has mass, does it not? Then why doesn't it count against the capacity limits of a BoH? If putting an object into a BoH, above water, displaces the air to the outside of the bag, then why wouldn't it do the same for water? Seriously, go get a bucket FULL of water and try to put a brick in it. I believe the correct term is: "Eureka!"
runestar 02-25-06, 09:56 PM	Actually, what would happen if you held the bag upside down? Would the water outside be prevented from flowing into the bag by the air inside? If so, then just manually put the coins in. :)
Seeker95 02-25-06, 10:22 PM	Air has mass, does it not? Then why doesn't it count against the capacity limits of a BoH?:doh: The limits of a bag of holding are based on weight.
ReverendCow 02-26-06, 07:57 AM	:doh: The limits of a bag of holding are based on weight. Okay, then. Lets figure this out. Let's assume it's a Type II for this exercise. Bag Bag Weight Contents Weight Limit Contents Volume Limit Market Price Type II 25 lb. 500 lb 70 cu. ft 5,000 gp First of all, let's assume that this bag is empty to start with. Okay, so if one cubic foot of water weighs 62.4 lbs, then this bag would be filled to weight capacity with 8.013 cubic feet of water. So here's my question, would the water still be displaced out of the bag if, after inserting the item, the contents of the bag still weighed at or less than 500 lbs?
RTNNS 02-26-06, 11:08 AM	Actually, what would happen if you held the bag upside down? Would the water outside be prevented from flowing into the bag by the air inside? If so, then just manually put the coins in. :) Even If the bag was held upside down water could still enter the bag as the bag is a extral dimentional space and gravity dosn't seem matter.
ReverendCow 02-26-06, 11:52 AM	Even If the bag was held upside down water could still enter the bag as the bag is a extral dimentional space and gravity dosn't seem matter. Gravity may not matter, but boyancy does. Since water is heavier than air, the air wouldn't be able to move down, then up around the sides of the opening. Admittedly, depending on the depth and the amount of water pressure, the air would be somewhat compressed. You'd have to open the bag right-side up for it to fill with water.
ank 03-18-06, 11:14 PM	If you read carefully under a bag of holding type one's decription it says that if you turn the bag inside out all the contents will empty out but the bag must be turned right side up to be used again. What im getting at here is that you should turn the bag inside out (thus loosing all the water) since there is now NO air and NO water in the extra-dimentionaly space it becomes a vacuum position the bag next to a majority of the loot and the bag will simply suck it in (along with some water). Repeat this process as often as neccesary by putting the gold/silver on nearby a nearby piece of dry land.
Seeker95 03-19-06, 07:42 AM	turn the bag inside out (thus loosing all the water) since there is now NO air and NO water in the extra-dimentionaly space it becomes a vacuum position the bag next to a majority of the loot and the bag will simply suck it inIt "may" be a vacuum, but not on the same dimension as the treasure. It would have no effect on this dimension, and would not suck the treasure into it.
Tyrasius 03-19-06, 12:21 PM	Air has mass, does it not? Then why doesn't it count against the capacity limits of a BoH? If putting an object into a BoH, above water, displaces the air to the outside of the bag, then why wouldn't it do the same for water? Seriously, go get a bucket FULL of water and try to put a brick in it. I believe the correct term is: "Eureka!" He has a point. Air has wheight. Therefore if you say the water counts, then so should the air. This means that all bags of holding, unless in a vacuum, wont work. That or oyu can say that the water and air are displaced, which makes sense. Just my opinion, seeker95, I look forward to your counterargument.
El Salvador 03-19-06, 01:04 PM	as a DM, I'd just say that putting gold in would push the water out. what kind of DM would I be to say that a bag of holding just doesn't work in one of the situations that it is most helpful (ie, treasure gathering). as far as the rules that have been expressed so far in this thread, the simplest way to do this, if your DM says its full of water, and that means you cant put gold in, is to turn it inside out, and then pick up the gold the way you might use an inside out bag to pick up dog waste in a park. Its really just that simple. as far as the argument that putting more gold in will rupture the bag, this is just stupid. by this logic, the bag will rupture itself as soon as you opened it underwater, because after its full of water, more waterpressure will be pushing in to the already full bag. My response to this cunundrum is to go back and read what I typed first in this post :)
Seeker95 03-19-06, 05:03 PM	by this logic, the bag will rupture itself as soon as you opened it underwater, because after its full of water, more waterpressure will be pushing in to the already full bag.Bingo. Don't open your bag of holding underwater.
Seeker95 03-19-06, 05:06 PM	He has a point. Air has weight. Therefore if you say the water counts, then so should the air. This means that all bags of holding, unless in a vacuum, wont work. Just my opinion, seeker95, I look forward to your counterargument.The "weight" of air is based on how much air is above it. The weight of water is based on the amount of water you have, not on its positional relation to the other water. Air may fill the bag, but it won't have more air on top of it with a center of gravity upon which it could be pushing. So no. Air doesn't count.
Wonton2006 03-19-06, 09:55 PM	And then there's the fact that all of you are trying to apply real-world physics to D&D. If physics worked properly, then technically, when two people are grappling, and one is struck by a lightning bolt or shocking grasp, the other should get affected too. Well, he's not. Why not? Because it's magic and works in weird ways. Same with the bag of holding. But I actually don't know what would happen in said situation, though in my opinion, the bag wouldn't fill up. :thinks:
Twilly 03-20-06, 04:30 AM	Conclusion: Bag of Holding is great for putting out fires and emptying small bodies of water. Q "Hey, where did the lake go?" A "A group of adventurers with funny bags came by." Q "What are they going to do with all that water?" A "Flood a dungeon or something, it seems to decrease the number of encounters.
KirinDave 03-20-06, 12:08 PM	It seems to me like in general, there would be a lot more fun things to do in a game than worry about the precise physics of your Bag of Holding, which has sketchy and poorly-understood physics to begin with. I mean, sheesh. Ask your DM what he's really trying to accomplish here. Is it just to p0wn his players, or is there actually some kind of driving plot influence for this level of tedium. Let's do a little excercise in Reductio Ad Absurdum: Let's say that if you fill the bag with water, then add a single coin, it will rupture. Now, imagine the same bag in a sunny field on a pleasant afternoon. You place a 500lbs black sphere that takes 1 cubic foot of space into your bag. By the logic presented, it should rupture, because Air has tangible mass (the air in a Type II bag weighs around 5.5lbs) and our previous statement says that we cannot displace lighter mediums out of the container. We have logically extended the example to a point where the Bag of Holding no longer functions like it specifically states that it does. Therefore, our original statement must be invalid. Would a bag of holding simply burst if you opened it underwater though? The weight of water would rapidly exceed the weight capacity of the bag before the volume was filled, but I'd still say "no." Water only flows when there is no resistance, and it's not like extradimensional spaces follow any laws we can apply from the physical world anyways. Most importantly, it is Not Fun. Unless mitigating circumstances make it fun, but then I doubt this forum thread would exist.