Post/Author/DateTime	Post
neanter 11-12-07, 02:27 AM	What happens when a bag of holding is destroyed? Can you take off the headband to put another on for a short while without losing your bonus spells/powers?
Kitep 11-12-07, 05:03 AM	What happens when a bag of holding is destroyed? Much weeping and nashing of teeth. The contents are lost forever. Can you take off the headband to put another on for a short while without losing your bonus spells/powers? Nope. When the intellect stops being active, bonus spells/powers are lost, even if you put the band back on (IMO - I can't cite a specific rule at the moment)
Merestil Haye 11-12-07, 10:30 AM	Can you take off the headband to put another on for a short while without losing your bonus spells/powers?What happens to a character who suffers ability damage which is then magically healed? Do they lose their spells and powers? I suspect most people would agree that a wizard hit with an Int damaging effect (or even Feeblemind) would not lose spells prepared if the ability loss were reversed. Changing headbands is directly analagous, and should have the same answer.
Undrhil 11-12-07, 03:41 PM	What happens to a character who suffers ability damage which is then magically healed? Do they lose their spells and powers? I suspect most people would agree that a wizard hit with an Int damaging effect (or even Feeblemind) would not lose spells prepared if the ability loss were reversed. Changing headbands is directly analagous, and should have the same answer. I disagree here. While it may seem similar enough, the problem is that the headband offers a temporary increase in INT. Having your INT drained is not the same as having temporary INT removed. If the headband is removed, I'd say it means that anything gained from wearing it is lost, even if the headband is only taken off long enough to brush your hair. That is why I have now begun offering Headbands of Intellect and Grooming, which not only increase your INT as per the Headband of Intellect but also keeps your hair nice and clean and free of lice and unsightly grey hairs. If grey hairs is you thing, we have the Headband of Intellect and Grooming (60+). :-D
Scion of Coldshard 11-12-07, 05:23 PM	You can take it off without losing the bonuses just fine. The bonus from having a high stat are only checked once, while you are gaining/regaining. After that only things that specifically state that they make you lose bits actually make you lose them. For example, negative levels specifically state it, but stat damaging poison does not. So once you get the bonus feel free to take the hat off and put on another, your save DC's will suffer though.
Black Mantha 11-12-07, 05:54 PM	I'm not so sure about that. I always understood it as that the number of bonus slots is dependent on your ability bonus. Lower ability bonus means less slots. It also worked like that in NWN. Replacing a headband of intellect by another one is possible, though: just put the new one on before you take the old one off. Or, if you need something else on your head for a while, bridge the gap with a fox' cunning.
steventirey1985 11-12-07, 05:56 PM	You can take it off without losing the bonuses just fine Thats incorrect. From the FAQ: Do ability enhancing items (such as the headband of intellect, cloak of charisma, and periapt of wisdom) grant bonus spells to the appropriate spellcasters? The spells these items are based on would seem to prohibit it, but the only things specifically addressed in the item descriptions are skill points. Yes, you can get extra bonus spells if you have an item that increases the ability score that governs your spellcasting. To get the extra bonus spells, you must wear the item while resting to regain spells and all through your initial daily preparations for spellcasting. (Even characters who don’t prepare spells need to meditate a little while at the beginning of the day; see Daily Readying of spells under the Sorcerers and bards section of Chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.) If you lose the item, you immediately lose the bonus spell slots the item gave you, starting with any uncast spells you have of the appropriate levels.
Kitep 11-12-07, 07:50 PM	To the OP: just be sure to cast a spell before you take it off. Then that spell could count as the lost one.
Undrhil 11-12-07, 08:19 PM	To the OP: just be sure to cast a spell before you take it off. Then that spell could count as the lost one. If you lose the item, you immediately lose the bonus spell slots the item gave you, starting with any uncast spells you have of the appropriate levels. So, unless you cast *all* of your spells, you're going to lose something.
ArcTan 11-12-07, 08:19 PM	What happens to a character who suffers ability damage which is then magically healed? Do they lose their spells and powers? I suspect most people would agree that a wizard hit with an Int damaging effect (or even Feeblemind) would not lose spells prepared if the ability loss were reversed. Wait, what? Yes he would. Your Int goes down, you lose the stuff Int gives you. Just like your HP goes down if your Con goes down and goes back up if your Con goes back up (and yes, this can kill you). Changing headbands is directly analagous, and should have the same answer. Yes. Losing Int makes you lose bonus spell slots. Getting it back leaves those slots empty. It's one of the advantages of being a spontaneous caster.
risner 11-12-07, 08:22 PM	1) What happens when a bag of holding is destroyed? 2) Can you take off the headband to put another on for a short while without losing your bonus spells/powers? 1) DM fiat, most likely lost forever or "if you go on a quest to find it on the astral plane you can get it back" or some such. 2) You really don't want to do that, since if you remove the helm by RAW you lose two uncasted slots from the levels the bonus slots are. When you put it back on it is DM fiat what happens. You could regain those slots or regain nothing. To the OP: just be sure to cast a spell before you take it off. Then that spell could count as the lost one. No, you can't lose something that doesn't exist. So you lose a different uncasted slot of the same level.
Scion of Coldshard 11-12-07, 11:27 PM	Thats incorrect. From the FAQ: The FAQ is making up rules again. For those who are saying that taking the item off makes the slots go away, where does it say this in the rules? We have rules for saying when you 'get' the bonus slots, why, and how.. but where are the rules for when your stat goes down? Again, the only time we know of when the amount of bonus slots are called for is when you gain them. If you want to say that the bonus slots are lost later on because of a change please show the rule that governs that.
Undrhil 11-12-07, 11:49 PM	Well, let's look at it this way, if you have a Wizard with INT of 14 normally, they have a set amount of spells per day, right? If they increase their INT through a temporary item, they gain bonus spells per day, right? Well, if you remove the temporary INT, they are back to being 14 INT with the spells per day assigned to a INT of 14. They will not magically (pun intended!) retain the bonus spell slots of being INT 15 or 16. So, basically, you know what a character with 14 INT would have and what a character of 16 INT would have. If you remove the two INT from 16 to make the characters INT 14, then you have an INT 14 character with the spells per day of a INT 14 character.
Scion of Coldshard 11-12-07, 11:55 PM	Well, let's look at it this way, if you have a Wizard with INT of 14 normally, they have a set amount of spells per day, right? Yep, set spells and bonus spells. When they prepare their spells for the day they get all of them. If they increase their INT through a temporary item, they gain bonus spells per day, right? Nope. You only gain the slots when you prep for the day. Well, if you remove the temporary INT, they are back to being 14 INT with the spells per day assigned to a INT of 14. They will not magically (pun intended!) retain the bonus spell slots of being INT 15 or 16. So, basically, you know what a character with 14 INT would have and what a character of 16 INT would have. If you remove the two INT from 16 to make the characters INT 14, then you have an INT 14 character with the spells per day of a INT 14 character. The rest of this looks to be building off of a faulty assumption. As such it will need to be revised.
groveborn 11-13-07, 12:00 AM	When taking damage to your primary casting attribute you lose the spells prepared in those slots. Lost until reprepared. If you're a spontaneous casting, you lose those slots until you rest as well. The same works for items that grant bonuses. Casting a boosting spell WOULD prevent the loss during transition, provided you put one on before the spell ended. You can take it off without losing the bonuses just fine. The bonus from having a high stat are only checked once, while you are gaining/regaining. After that only things that specifically state that they make you lose bits actually make you lose them. For example, negative levels specifically state it, but stat damaging poison does not. So once you get the bonus feel free to take the hat off and put on another, your save DC's will suffer though. Not true at all. Spell effects only check for valid targets once, during casting, everything else is analog. There is a constant checking.
Scion of Coldshard 11-13-07, 12:07 AM	When taking damage to your primary casting attribute you lose the spells prepared in those slots. Could you give me a rules quote on that? If possible a page number and which book as well ;) Not true at all. Spell effects only check for valid targets once, during casting, everything else is analog. There is a constant checking. Spells only check for valid targets once is generally true, spell slots are gained only once a day is also generally true. It is also generally true that slots are only lost when something specifically calls it out to be so. Given that, where is your rules quote proving your case?
Undrhil 11-13-07, 12:11 AM	Yep, set spells and bonus spells. When they prepare their spells for the day they get all of them. Nope. You only gain the slots when you prep for the day. The rest of this looks to be building off of a faulty assumption. As such it will need to be revised. Not sure which part of the last bit was "faulty assumption." Was I mistaken that we have set rules for what an INT 14 wizard would get and a INT 16 wizard would get? If not, then what is so hard to believe that a INT 16 wizard losing 2 INT would become an INT 14 wizard, losing those additional spells per day in the process?
Scion of Coldshard 11-13-07, 12:14 AM	Not sure which part of the last bit was "faulty assumption." Was I mistaken that we have set rules for what an INT 14 wizard would get and a INT 16 wizard would get? If not, then what is so hard to believe that a INT 16 wizard losing 2 INT would become an INT 14 wizard, losing those additional spells per day in the process? You get spell slots once per day, there are no rules that I have seen that say you gain and lose slots as your stat changes. The only check is when you regain your spells. Anything other than that I havent seen any rules for. If someone could provide them that'd be great. Otherwise, you get the slots for your stat at the time of preparing and changes later on dont effect your slots because nothing says that it does.
Undrhil 11-13-07, 12:37 AM	As a DM, I would rule that the slots go away as the item is removed. How's that? Happy now? Since there is not a fixed rule (and even if there was a fixed rule), as the DM of my campaign, I can make it happen. The bottom line: it's a temporary boost to a stat. I understand that wearing the item during your resting time would allow you to get the spells but if you lose that INT, it's like losing your memory or part of your brain. You lose some vital knowledge (such as spells memorized) due to this lose. A Fighter can do more damage due to having a higher STR. So, if a Fighter loses his Gauntlets of Ogre Power during a fight, his bonus to STR goes away and so does his bonus damage. This is *exactly* the same thing that would happen when removing *any other piece of equipment which is providing a temporary stat bonus*. Anything provided to the character by the temporary increase in that stat goes away when the item is removed.
Scion of Coldshard 11-13-07, 12:46 AM	As a DM, I would rule that the slots go away as the item is removed. How's that? Happy now? Since there is not a fixed rule (and even if there was a fixed rule), as the DM of my campaign, I can make it happen. You can rule however you like in your own game. As far as I know, however, the question was not about your game. Instead, it was about the game in general, which looks to work the way I have said without evidence to the contrary. Suggesting it as an alternative and giving your reasons why would be perfectly acceptable, but claiming it is the rules because it is the way you would do it if it came up in your own game doesnt really answer the question properly.
Undrhil 11-13-07, 12:54 AM	You can rule however you like in your own game. As far as I know, however, the question was not about your game. Instead, it was about the game in general, which looks to work the way I have said without evidence to the contrary. Suggesting it as an alternative and giving your reasons why would be perfectly acceptable, but claiming it is the rules because it is the way you would do it if it came up in your own game doesnt really answer the question properly. I am not suggesting it as an alternative. I am suggesting it as common sense. So far, you have said that it appears *to you* to work the way you are saying it. So, you are now contradicting yourself since you are "suggesting it as an alternative, giving your reasons why *and* claiming it is the rules". If I lose CON, I lose bonus hit points. If I lose INT, I lose bonus spells.
ScipioX 11-13-07, 12:55 AM	Um, since when is the FAQ not an official source?! Sure, you can discount it as RAW when it directly contradicts the primary sources. But its not doing that here. In fact, its doing exactly what its supposed to do... clearing up an area of the rules that is ambiguous in the primary books. So feel free to ignore the faq, just as you are free to make up any other house rule.
Scion of Coldshard 11-13-07, 12:57 AM	I am suggesting it as common sense. Common sense is often neither common nor sensical. ;) So far, you have said that it appears *to you* to work the way you are saying it. Sure. By the rules I have seen so far that is what it appears to me to be. I am open to someone putting up a rule which proves that I am incorrect in my stance. I realize that this might be a strange thing given that message boards tend to have people who will not budge no matter what.. but just try to roll with it ;)
Scion of Coldshard 11-13-07, 12:58 AM	If I lose CON, I lose bonus hit points. If I lose INT, I lose bonus spells. When your con changes your max hp change, that is what the rules say. When you lose int... the rules are silent about what happens. Without a rule stating otherwise the assumption is that nothing happens. To assume otherwise is to make up rules that have not been shown to be present, which means a houserule.
risner 11-13-07, 02:01 AM	Could you give me a rules quote on that? If possible a page number and which book as well ;) Can you give me a rules quote that prevents dead player characters from taking the full attack option? No? Well, I can't give you the negative quote you seek either. In short, the rules on page 7/8 are very clear. Your stat goes up, you have bonus slots. Your stat goes down, you lose slots.
groveborn 11-13-07, 04:46 AM	When your con changes your max hp change, that is what the rules say. When you lose int... the rules are silent about what happens. Without a rule stating otherwise the assumption is that nothing happens. To assume otherwise is to make up rules that have not been shown to be present, which means a houserule. Intelligence (Int) rule Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects how many spells they can cast, how hard their spells are to resist, and how powerful their spells can be. It's also important for any character who wants to have a wide assortment of skills. You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to: The number of languages your character knows at the start of the game. The number of skill points gained each level. (But your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.) Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft checks. These are the skills that have Intelligence as their key ability. A wizard gains bonus spells based on her Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell's level. An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least 3. Bolding mine. Simply put, when you increase the score, you get bonus spells, when you decrease the score, you lose those spells. They cease to exist altogether. You must rest prior to using those slots, as per the magic section. If you lose the bonus spells, you must wait until the appropriate preparation time has occurred, AFTER the bonus is applied. Boosting spells can grant extra slots, but they can't be prepared. Magic items provide bonuses long enough to prepare, but once that bonus is removed, however long, the slots are gone, as are the prepared spells in them. They don't turn unusable, they cease to exist. No house rules are needed.
neanter 11-13-07, 04:49 AM	What I am assuming is that since most of the spell is "cast" the during morning preparation, it is then that one needs the int. After that one needs only to do a few trifle things to finish it(casting). Who's got THE answer?
risner 11-13-07, 09:56 AM	What I am assuming is that since most of the spell is "cast" the during morning preparation, it is then that one needs the int. After that one needs only to do a few trifle things to finish it(casting). Who's got THE answer? Is there a question in there that relates to this thread? Because I couldn't find one.
groveborn 11-13-07, 02:19 PM	Is there a question in there that relates to this thread? Because I couldn't find one. I honestly don't know what the thread is about, the title doesn't make sense to me, nor did the OP. That being said, this is for you Risner... Dying (-1 to -9 Hit Points) combat When your character's current hit points drop to between -1 and -9 inclusive, he's dying. A dying character immediately falls unconscious and can take no actions. A dying character loses 1 hit point every round. This continues until the character dies or becomes stable (see below). Dead (-10 Hit Points or Lower) combat When your character's current hit points drop to -10 or lower, or if he takes massive damage (see above), he's dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution to 0. Since these effects are stacking like fear stacks, then you may also take no actions when you're dead. Now, because when a creature dies it ascends to a new plane, one could allow a character to act on that plane, eventually returning to the material plane, and hiring someone to resurrect him. As a character is different dead, than alive, a new character sheet will be needed for this.
ArcTan 11-13-07, 02:47 PM	You can rule however you like in your own game. As far as I know, however, the question was not about your game. Instead, it was about the game in general, which looks to work the way I have said without evidence to the contrary. Suggesting it as an alternative and giving your reasons why would be perfectly acceptable, but claiming it is the rules because it is the way you would do it if it came up in your own game doesnt really answer the question properly. This is all that is actually said about Wizards, Int and bonus spells: A wizard gains bonus spells based on her Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell’s level. Nothing in this says anything about getting bonus spells at the "beginning of the day" or any crap like that. That's an assumption you're making. It says that spell slots *refresh* every day later on, but the implication is not that you "lose" a spell slot and you get them all back each day -- the implication is that the number of spell slots you have is static, and a spell slot that you choose to use is "empty" until "filled". A Wizard who opts to not prepare his max number of spells at the beginning of the day doesn't not receive those spell slots yet and then receive them later -- he still *has* them, but they are "empty". I.e. it's not true that bonus spell slots affect how many spells you "get" at the beginning of the day. They affect how many spell slots you *have*, period. What happens at the beginning of the day is spell slots being filled or emptied -- but if a spell slot is simply lost, it's lost, and can't be empty or full. Notice this: Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind. The only magic items I know of that it could be referring to in core are casting-stat-boosting items, and what happens when they're removed.
ArcTan 11-13-07, 02:49 PM	What I am assuming is that since most of the spell is "cast" the during morning preparation, it is then that one needs the int. After that one needs only to do a few trifle things to finish it(casting). Who's got THE answer? ...That would be giving Wizards an unnecessary and unfair advantage against all the other casters, such as Clerics, who *pray* for their spells rather than mentally preparing them, or Sorcerers and Bards, who don't "prepare" anything at all.
Scion of Coldshard 11-13-07, 04:11 PM	Can you give me a rules quote that prevents dead player characters from taking the full attack option? Why would such a rule be needed? Perhaps petitioners need to use the full attack option, why should the rules disallow them that? In short, the rules on page 7/8 are very clear. Your stat goes up, you have bonus slots. Your stat goes down, you lose slots. They are clear yes, and they do not say anything like what you are saying here. Bolding mine. Yes, but do you have any rules that say that when your stat goes up or down you gain or lose them right now? We know that when preparing spells for the day you get your allotment, but you will need to show a rule that says that your allotment gained during the preperation actually changes when your stats change. This is all that is actually said about Wizards, Int and bonus spells: Since we are talking about actually having slots to cast with why are you not looking in the spell preperation section? Nothing in this says anything about getting bonus spells at the "beginning of the day" or any crap like that. I dont care when the character prepares their spells, so long as it is within the rules for preperation. Since it is usually done right after resting it generally is the 'beginning of their day', at least for arcane casters, which I suppose is why the FAQ said that. Note that I didnt say 'beginning of the day'. It says that spell slots *refresh* every day later on, but the implication is not that you "lose" a spell slot and you get them all back each day -- the implication is that the number of spell slots you have is static, and a spell slot that you choose to use is "empty" until "filled". A Wizard who opts to not prepare his max number of spells at the beginning of the day doesn't not receive those spell slots yet and then receive them later -- he still *has* them, but they are "empty". Lets look at the spell prep rules for a wizard: Spell Selection and Preparation Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, she chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells. When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells. So yes, you get all of your slots at one time. You can leave them empty so that they can be filled later, but you did get them all to begin with. Which means that you are agreeing with my stance then? When a wizard prepares for the day he gets all of his slots then.. changes later to his stat, up or down, have no impact since the slots have already been granted. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind. The only magic items I know of that it could be referring to in core are casting-stat-boosting items, and what happens when they're removed. This quote from the SRD supports my stance nicely. It takes a special effect to wipe a spell out, and those should be called out specifically because there is no general rule to cover what does and does not do it. Stat boosters and stat penalyzers do not mention the loss of spell slots in general, which means that they do not do so. Losing the effect of an item is not generally an effect of the item in question either, so it wouldnt fall under the 'such as' part directly, but could as an extra if there was further rules support for it. An easy item which would cost a spell slot from a direct effect would be any item which gives the character a negative level while it is worn or used. Some creatures also give negative levels which could work the same way.
Scion of Coldshard 11-13-07, 04:16 PM	What I am assuming is that since most of the spell is "cast" the during morning preparation, it is then that one needs the int. After that one needs only to do a few trifle things to finish it(casting). Who's got THE answer? ...That would be giving Wizards an unnecessary and unfair advantage against all the other casters, such as Clerics, who *pray* for their spells rather than mentally preparing them, or Sorcerers and Bards, who don't "prepare" anything at all. What are you saying gives wizards an advantage here? To neanter: The answer is that you use your stat for bonus spells when you get your spells for the day. This works the same for arcane, divine, and psionic, spontaneous or not. Changes to the stat later do not change how many slots you got when you went through the ritual for the day, but your ability to actually cast them may change.
mvincent 11-13-07, 04:51 PM	The FAQ is making up rules again.All supplements (including the FAQ) have license to make up new rules, provided they don’t conflict with a source that has primacy. Do you believe the core rules already address this somewhere without ambiguity?
groveborn 11-13-07, 06:14 PM	Why would such a rule be needed? Perhaps petitioners need to use the full attack option, why should the rules disallow them that? They are clear yes, and they do not say anything like what you are saying here. Yes, but do you have any rules that say that when your stat goes up or down you gain or lose them right now? We know that when preparing spells for the day you get your allotment, but you will need to show a rule that says that your allotment gained during the preperation actually changes when your stats change. Since we are talking about actually having slots to cast with why are you not looking in the spell preperation section? I dont care when the character prepares their spells, so long as it is within the rules for preperation. Since it is usually done right after resting it generally is the 'beginning of their day', at least for arcane casters, which I suppose is why the FAQ said that. Note that I didnt say 'beginning of the day'. Lets look at the spell prep rules for a wizard: So yes, you get all of your slots at one time. You can leave them empty so that they can be filled later, but you did get them all to begin with. Which means that you are agreeing with my stance then? When a wizard prepares for the day he gets all of his slots then.. changes later to his stat, up or down, have no impact since the slots have already been granted. This quote from the SRD supports my stance nicely. It takes a special effect to wipe a spell out, and those should be called out specifically because there is no general rule to cover what does and does not do it. Stat boosters and stat penalyzers do not mention the loss of spell slots in general, which means that they do not do so. Losing the effect of an item is not generally an effect of the item in question either, so it wouldnt fall under the 'such as' part directly, but could as an extra if there was further rules support for it. An easy item which would cost a spell slot from a direct effect would be any item which gives the character a negative level while it is worn or used. Some creatures also give negative levels which could work the same way. You do not gain your slots at the preperation time, you FILL them. You're allowed to use them. You must HAVE them to use them. When you remove the bonuses, you lose the slots. There is nothing that states it that simply, because you only GET the bonus spells AFTER applying a bonus to your stat. When the bonus to the stat is gone, conversly, so too is the bonus spells. It doesn't have to spell it out, because using simple A+B=C then C-B=A AND C-A=B. It's simple. Just because you don't read a passage that gravity pushes things DOWN, that doesn't mean it can push sideways. Use your brain. This isn't open ended, it's just not spelled out. There are no other interpretations. No bonus to stat, no bonus to spells. Bonus spells disapear.
Scion of Coldshard 11-13-07, 06:30 PM	All supplements (including the FAQ) have license to make up new rules, provided they don’t conflict with a source that has primacy. Do you believe the core rules already address this somewhere without ambiguity? The rules are fine as is, yes. You get your slots at a certain point and after that only things that specifically tell you that you lose them cause you to lose them. Quotes already provided in the thread show this pretty clearly. You do not gain your slots at the preperation time, you FILL them. The character fills the ones that it has based on its stats when the character does whatever it needs to do to get them. Some may already be filled and can be abandoned if desired, some classes can leave slots open and fill them later, but they are certainly 'made ready' by the initial process. When you remove the bonuses, you lose the slots. There is nothing that states it that simply, because you only GET the bonus spells AFTER applying a bonus to your stat. Nothing states it simply because it isnt true. You get the bonus slots when you get your slots for the day, as per the rules, but nothing says that you lose some that you have or gain other available later on. It looks like either the rules work the way I have put forward, which is consistant with the rules, or we have to assume that there are huge gaps in the ruleset where things might or might not happen and we have to guess, such as having to guess which slots are lost and what newly gained slots may be used for. I prefer to use the way that is already there in the rules rather than making the assumption that there is a big hole and guesses at function are the only way to progress. As I said earlier, the way I have put forward is consistant with all rules presented thus far.. since it is simple, easy, and intuitive, along with needing the least amount of paperwork, I say it is by far superior to the assumption that somehow there is a swath of rules text that the designers simply forgot to add.
mvincent 11-13-07, 06:35 PM	The rules are fine as is, yes. You get your slots at a certain point and after that only things that specifically tell you that you lose them cause you to lose them. Quotes already provided in the thread show this pretty clearly.So you cannot see how someone might interpret it differently?
Scion of Coldshard 11-13-07, 06:49 PM	So you cannot see how someone might interpret it differently? What rules are they using to interpret it differently? Someone could interpret that a heightened fireball has a higher dice cap than a nonheightened one.. it doesnt mean that they would be correct, just that they were misinterpreting a different rule/guideline.
mvincent 11-13-07, 06:56 PM	What rules are they using to interpret it differently?"Prepared Spell Retention (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#preparingWizardSpells) Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind. " For clarity, can you provide quotes for the text that you believe supports your viewpoint unambiguously?
Scion of Coldshard 11-13-07, 07:04 PM	"Prepared Spell Retention (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#preparingWizardSpells) Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind. " For clarity, can you provide quotes for the text that you believe supports your viewpoint unambiguously? The one you have just provided supports my viewpoint unambiguously. Once the spell is prepared it remains until it is used, it is abandoned (the rules for abandoning the spell have been given earlier in this thread), or specific effects wipe it from the mind. Since the specific effects are not given in a list here, or even guidelines for them, then the only assumption that makes sense is that anything that will wipe a spell will specifically say so. Anything that does not say so does not wipe them.. so taking 10 points of damage does not wipe away any spells, unless the effect says that it does.. regardless of whether this is 10 points of damage from a fall, from a sword, or to your prime casting stat..
ArcTan 11-13-07, 08:53 PM	What are you saying gives wizards an advantage here? To neanter: The answer is that you use your stat for bonus spells when you get your spells for the day. This works the same for arcane, divine, and psionic, spontaneous or not. Changes to the stat later do not change how many slots you got when you went through the ritual for the day, but your ability to actually cast them may change. Many characters don't have a "ritual". Psionic characters don't, for instance, nor do they have "slots" that get "filled" at the beginning of the day -- they just have a total of points that goes up and down. And when they take damage to their psionic stats, they lose points.
ArcTan 11-13-07, 08:59 PM	Yes, but do you have any rules that say that when your stat goes up or down you gain or lose them right now? We know that when preparing spells for the day you get your allotment, but you will need to show a rule that says that your allotment gained during the preperation actually changes when your stats change. You don't "get" spell slots when you prepare spells. You *fill* spell slots. You *get* spell slots when you level up and/or increase your casting stat. You lose them when you lose a level and/or decrease your casting stat. Lets look at the spell prep rules for a wizard: So yes, you get all of your slots at one time. You can leave them empty so that they can be filled later, but you did get them all to begin with. Nothing in that quote says anything about "getting" slots at all. Wizards don't "get" anything when they sleep. They *have* slots that they have *always* had, that were either empty or full. Resting simply empties all full slots and enables them to be filled again. It doesn't "give" you slots at all. Which means that you are agreeing with my stance then? When a wizard prepares for the day he gets all of his slots then.. changes later to his stat, up or down, have no impact since the slots have already been granted. No. As long as a Wizard has Int 18 and is 5th-level, he *has* the slots of an Int 18 5th-level Wizard. The number *never* changes. Using a slot simply turns it into a full, already-used slot that can't be emptied and filled with a fresh spell until he sleeps again. But the *number of slots is constant*. This static number of slots can change if the Wizard takes a negative level, or loses Int, or whatever. At that point he immediately changes his static number of slots to that of an Int 16 5th-level Wizard or an Int 18 4th-level Wizard or whatever. The rules say nothing about "getting spell slots" when you sleep. It talks about *filling* and *emptying*.
Scion of Coldshard 11-13-07, 09:04 PM	Many characters don't have a "ritual". Psionic characters don't, for instance, nor do they have "slots" that get "filled" at the beginning of the day -- they just have a total of points that goes up and down. Sure they have a 'ritual'. Daily Power Point Acquisition To regain used daily power points, a psionic character must have a clear mind. To clear his mind, he must first sleep for 8 hours. The character does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, manifesting powers, skill use, conversation, or any other demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of rest immediately prior to regaining lost power points. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before regaining power points. Regaining Power Points Once the character has rested in a suitable environment, it takes only an act of concentration spanning 1 full round to regain all power points of the psionic character’s daily limit. There it is. And when they take damage to their psionic stats, they lose points. Nope, once they get their daily allotment stat changes dont matter. It looks like by your reasoning a character can have a near infinite amount of pp and spell slots each day.. when they run out they just take off the item and then put it back on.. poof! More slots/pp!
ArcTan 11-13-07, 09:12 PM	Why? An expended slot or power point is expended. Losing it means you can't replenish it the next day, yes, but getting it back doesn't un-expend it.
Scion of Coldshard 11-13-07, 09:14 PM	You don't "get" spell slots when you prepare spells. You *fill* spell slots. You *get* spell slots when you level up and/or increase your casting stat. You lose them when you lose a level and/or decrease your casting stat. The only time the game checks is when they are refreshed, which as far as I can tell is the same as 'getting them back'. If you have an issue with the word 'get' then you can use 'refreshing up to your current amount' or something similar. In any event, the character generally gets back what he used up. The amount of slots you have for the day is set when doing whatever it is the character does to get them. Afterwards nothing checks to see if they have the proper number or not. No. As long as a Wizard has Int 18 and is 5th-level, he *has* the slots of an Int 18 5th-level Wizard. The number *never* changes. This is not different from what I said, so the 'no' seems out of place. I think you are way too hung up on 'get'. The character does get the use of his slots back. I tend to check off spells as they are used, which to me means that they are gone until I get them back by resting and doing whatever ritual is required. You can word it however you like, the result and the process is essentially the same. This static number of slots can change if the Wizard takes a negative level, or loses Int, or whatever. Uh oh.. you brought up negative levels.. If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level. Emphasis mine. The rules say nothing about "getting spell slots" when you sleep. It talks about *filling* and *emptying*. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.
Scion of Coldshard 11-13-07, 09:16 PM	Why? An expended slot or power point is expended. Losing it means you can't replenish it the next day, yes, but getting it back doesn't un-expend it. But there are no rules for losing it nor are there rules for what happens when it is regained. You are making up one rule and that in turn leads you to needing to make up another. If it worked the way you are saying we should have a rule that talks about keeping track of which spells are from the higher stat, or at least a general rule about how to choose between the spells that are left. Instead we know that you only lose spells for a few specific reasons, and each of those are called out specifically in the rules. Stat inc or dec is not called out specifically.
ArcTan 11-13-07, 09:19 PM	But there are no rules for losing it nor are there rules for what happens when it is regained. Sure there are. The situation is exactly analogous to gaining a negative level. The designers, yes, made a hodgepodge of where to find needed rules for what in the PHB, but that doesn't mean the rules aren't there.
Scion of Coldshard 11-13-07, 09:24 PM	Sure there are. Where? None have been presented so far. The situation is exactly analogous to gaining a negative level. Where does it say this? Are you saying that you lose your highest level slot as if it was cast? Do they also get less spell slots the next time they regain their spells? The designers, yes, made a hodgepodge of where to find needed rules for what in the PHB, but that doesn't mean the rules aren't there. Then show them! So far we have evidence against your position, show something for your position!
ArcTan 11-13-07, 09:31 PM	Where does it say this? Are you saying that you lose your highest level slot as if it was cast? Do they also get less spell slots the next time they regain their spells? When you gain a negative level, your total number of spell slots goes down, yes. Not in a permanent way and *not* exactly analogous to losing a level, which is the point of negative levels -- it simplifies bookkeeping. But it does provide the general mechanic -- which is generally adhered to elsewhere -- of how losing a spell slot works. You pick which spell you want to lose out of all currently uncast spells (if you're a prepared caster) or else just decrease your number of slots by one (if you're a spontaneous caster). If you get rid of the negative level before you prepare spells again, you can fill that slot again (you get it back). Otherwise it stays unavailable. Just as if you put the headband back on before you prepare spells again, you can prepare a new spell in there, and if you don't, you can't. Ability loss should work the same way, logically. You lose Int. Your bonus spell slots go down. You pick one at each level to lose. You can prepare or replenish them again the next day *if* you reverse the Int loss before then. If not, it sticks. (It's a lot more complicated than negative levels, sure, because bonus spell slots occur at every level. Note that negative levels aren't always used, and some mechanics, like the Deck of Many Things, simply strip levels from you outright, which would require the same thing -- losing spell slots at every level because you're now actually level 3 instead of level 4.)
celestialkin 11-13-07, 09:33 PM	Much weeping and nashing of teeth. The contents are lost forever. If you knew Plane Shift couldn't you just go get your stuff in the Astral Plane? I ask because I might need to on my next gaming session.
ArcTan 11-13-07, 09:49 PM	If you knew Plane Shift couldn't you just go get your stuff in the Astral Plane? I ask because I might need to on my next gaming session. Only if you knew where it was. It implies that you don't (that the bag and its contents are dumped in some totally random place in the nigh-infinite Astral Plane with no way to look for them).
Scion of Coldshard 11-13-07, 09:55 PM	When you gain a negative level, your total number of spell slots goes down, yes. Not in a permanent way and *not* exactly analogous to losing a level, which is the point of negative levels -- it simplifies bookkeeping. There is nothing in the rules linking the two provided in this thread. You are saying that something is similar but it is only similar because you are declaring it to be, without rules support. If you get rid of the negative level before you prepare spells again, you can fill that slot again (you get it back). That isnt what the rule says. It doesnt say, 'while you have ...' it says, 'the next time you..' Ability loss should work the same way, logically. No, not logically. If your int goes up or down you do not lose skill points. If we take that as a stepping point then it makes sense something you have learned doesnt go away just because you get dumber, nor do you get more knowledge immediately just because you got smarter (skills using the stat as a boost would not signify more knowledge, simply better usage of the knowledge you have). Your bonus spell slots go down. Your number of slots you would be alloted if you were preparing right now might change, but that has no bearing on what you already have, regardless of the direction of change. Simple, easy, no extra book keeping, and in line with the RAW.
Undrhil 11-13-07, 10:17 PM	Let's go with a simple majority vote, shall we? Who believes Scion is correct - that you maintain your spell slots if you lose temporary stat increases from an item?
groveborn 11-14-07, 04:09 PM	Let's go with a simple majority vote, shall we? Who believes Scion is correct - that you maintain your spell slots if you lose temporary stat increases from an item? He's so not correct. And you ARE supposed to keep track of your bonus spells separately so you may know which you lose.... If got to keep your unused slots after removing your bonuses, then there's nothing stopping you from taking off your item, and replacing it with something else that's useful. If it sounds abuseful, then it is, and is likely against the rules. Dude's just wrong. He's reading the way he wants to. Or trying to tick everyone off, whichever.
Toki_Wartooth 11-14-07, 04:19 PM	Let's go with a simple majority vote, shall we? Who believes Scion is correct - that you maintain your spell slots if you lose temporary stat increases from an item?Voting? How wonderfully egalitarian! My vote is for Scion being incorrect.
Scion of Coldshard 11-14-07, 04:20 PM	He's so not correct. According to the rules presented so far in this thread I am correct. If you feel it is so obvious that I am incorrect then you should be able to come up with rules support for your position. If got to keep your unused slots after removing your bonuses, then there's nothing stopping you from taking off your item, and replacing it with something else that's useful. Sure you can, but you lose all of the other benefits for having a higher stat such as higher DC's, bonuses to skills, etc. Just like you can have a healing belt, get healed by it, and then take it off without having to worry about the hp you just gained from it suddenly dissappearing. Items to boost stats are pretty expensive. That is a lot of money to pay if you are only going for a bonus slot or two. You could easily be much better off just buying pearls of power. Where is the abuse?
ArcTan 11-14-07, 04:49 PM	What I'm curious about is whether Scion thinks max spell level limits can also be circumvented in this way. (I.e. whether I can boost my Int from 17 to 19, learn a 9th-level spell, pull off the headband and still have the spell available to me.)
Undrhil 11-14-07, 04:52 PM	According to the rules presented so far in this thread I am correct. Actually, as you have pointed out, the rules are very vague in this respect, making it largely DM fiat in regards to this issue. Therefore, neither of us are correct and we should just agree to disagree on the issue until a ruling from Wizards comes down to clarify. Sure you can, but you lose all of the other benefits for having a higher stat such as higher DC's, bonuses to skills, etc. So, you agree that you lose those benefits but not about losing the bonus spell slots and spells? Contradictory much? Just like you can have a healing belt, get healed by it, and then take it off without having to worry about the hp you just gained from it suddenly dissappearing. Ah, but if you have an item which adds *TEMPORARY* HP and you remove it, those HP do go away. Items to boost stats are pretty expensive. That is a lot of money to pay if you are only going for a bonus slot or two. You could easily be much better off just buying pearls of power. Where is the abuse? By the time the adventures have enough money to buy those stat boosting items, they can afford to be picky about it and only buy them for a bonus slot or two. What does this have to do with the current discussion?
Scion of Coldshard 11-14-07, 04:57 PM	What I'm curious about is whether Scion thinks max spell level limits can also be circumvented in this way. (I.e. whether I can boost my Int from 17 to 19, learn a 9th-level spell, pull off the headband and still have the spell available to me.) If I recall correctly you need to have a high enough stat in order to 'cast' the spell. Unless you are trying to say that you feel taking off the int booster would remove all 8th and 9th level spells from your memory? That would seem like a stretch, you'd have to have some rules quotes for that as well.
Undrhil 11-14-07, 04:57 PM	What I'm curious about is whether Scion thinks max spell level limits can also be circumvented in this way. (I.e. whether I can boost my Int from 17 to 19, learn a 9th-level spell, pull off the headband and still have the spell available to me.) No, from reading Scion's posts, he believes that you would lose access to that spell but if you put the headband back on you would regain the spell without having to prepare it again, etc. This is extrapolated from his post about Feeblemind, wherein he argued that since the rules don't say you *lose* those spells, they are still there, you just can't get to them. Once you regain those lose INT points (from a Restoration or whatever), you would *immediately* have whatever spells available that you had available before the Feeblemind spell. I, of course, disagree.
Armendil 11-14-07, 05:12 PM	The answer to this question should be fairly obvious. The PHB states that a Wizard's intelligence score determines how many spells of a given level he can memorize in a day. He is described as being able to hold a certain number of spells in his memory as if his memory held a certain number of pages and the number of spell slots he can fill is determined by his intelligence. in other words, his head has a carrying capacity. If he wears an item that expands that capacity, and fills his bonus slots with spells, then if the item is removed and his intelligence is diminished, the extra space will go away and the extra spells will be lost. If this were not the case, every wizard could simply cast Fox's Cunning while memorizing spells at the beginning of the day and gain bonus spells lasting long after the spell wore off. The real question is whether the spells will come back when he puts the headband back on. This question is not answered by the rules. I can think of two ways to deal with it. 1) Have a wizard with a headband declare which of the spells he memorizes are dependant on the headband. While the headband is off, he can't cast those spells, but if he puts it back on the spells reappear. 2) removing the headband causes the wizards to lose his bonus spells and he may choose which spells are lost. If he puts the headband back on, the slots reappear but are empty and cannot be refilled until after 8 hours of rest. If you use option 2, you shouldn't allow a wizard to immediately refill the newly empty slots. This would turn the headband into a way of erasing and replacing spells in the middle of the day. A wizard who wishes to leave some slots open for later memorization should be forced to leave the slots blank until they are filled for that day. If a wizard has already memorized spells for the day, and then later puts on a headband, he should be allowed to fill the new slots immediately just as if he were filling a slot deliberately left free because these new slots were not previously occupied with a spell after the lat period of rest.
Scion of Coldshard 11-14-07, 05:12 PM	Actually, as you have pointed out, the rules are very vague in this respect, making it largely DM fiat in regards to this issue. The rules here are clear enough. The only people who are having trouble with them are the ones assuming that the writers forgot huge swaths of text which forces a dm to make things up. The rules presented thus far work perfectly fine with the way I have shown.. Especially that one about, 'you only lose spells for these reasons..' which doesnt list stat changes. So, you agree that you lose those benefits but not about losing the bonus spell slots and spells? Contradictory much? You lose the ones that the rules say you lose. Where is the contradiction?? You havent shown any rules saying that you lose the slots, but we can find rules that tell you how to derive the bonuses for the things I list and see that they do change immediately. It is not a contradiction to say both that water can be both a liquid and a solid. Ah, but if you have an item which adds *TEMPORARY* HP and you remove it, those HP do go away. So if you have an item which casts false life on you then you would have the hp go away if the character removed the item? By the time the adventures have enough money to buy those stat boosting items, they can afford to be picky about it and only buy them for a bonus slot or two. What does this have to do with the current discussion? If you will note what I was responding to it was declared that this would be an abuse. But the abuse looks to be illusory.
Scion of Coldshard 11-14-07, 05:16 PM	No, from reading Scion's posts, he believes that you would lose access to that spell but if you put the headband back on you would regain the spell without having to prepare it again, etc. This is extrapolated from his post about Feeblemind, wherein he argued that since the rules don't say you *lose* those spells, they are still there, you just can't get to them. Once you regain those lose INT points (from a Restoration or whatever), you would *immediately* have whatever spells available that you had available before the Feeblemind spell. I, of course, disagree. The spells are still there but you cannot cast them without the required stat, that is true.. unless you can find somewhere that says otherwise. I find it very odd that someone would think that not only are the bonus spells removed (by some still unknown rule) but also that all slots of certain levels would be gone (by some other unknown rule).
Scion of Coldshard 11-14-07, 05:22 PM	The answer to this question should be fairly obvious. The PHB states that a Wizard's intelligence score determines how many spells of a given level he can memorize in a day. Yes it does. So, once you have those memorized we look for what causes them to stop being memorized.. Prepared Spell Retention Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind. If this were not the case, every wizard could simply cast Fox's Cunning while memorizing spells at the beginning of the day and gain bonus spells lasting long after the spell wore off. Fox's cunning both has insufficient duration and the spell itself says that it does not grant any bonus spells. The real question is whether the spells will come back when he puts the headband back on. This question is not answered by the rules. Since they dont go away in the first place there isnt much need for a rule about them coming back from the place they didnt go. Note that if you do it the way I have described, fully within the rules, you dont have to jump through hoops of guessing and making houserules.
Undrhil 11-14-07, 05:26 PM	If I recall correctly you need to have a high enough stat in order to 'cast' the spell. Unless you are trying to say that you feel taking off the int booster would remove all 8th and 9th level spells from your memory? That would seem like a stretch, you'd have to have some rules quotes for that as well. OK. Allow me to move this discussion along a little bit. In the Player's Handbook, on page 178, under the section: "Spell Selection and Preparation". "Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, she chooses which spells to prepare. The act of preparing a spell is actually the first step in casting it. A spell is designed in such a way that it has an interruption point near its end. This allows a wizard to cast most of the spell ahead of time and finish when it’s needed, even if she is under considerable pressure. Her spellbook serves as a guide to the mental exercises she must perform to create the spell’s effect. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells." Bolding mine. In other words, during the day, those spells you have memorized are actually partially cast (meaning you would have had to have a high enough stat to begin casting it.) If, during the course of your adventure you lose that higher stat, those spells which you had prepared would be no longer castable by you and therefore would cease to be partially cast, since you no longer have the stat requirements to cast that spell. Now, to support this, I quote (also from the Player's Handbook, page 178): "The various character class tables in Chapter 3: Classes show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. For example, a 7th-level wizard has at least one 4th-level spell slot and two 3rd-level spell slots (see Table 3–18: The Wizard, page 55). However, the character could choose to prepare three 3rd-level spells instead, filling the 4th-level slot with a 3rdlevel spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level." So, if you lack the ability score to cast the spell, you cannot cast it and that slot *must* be filled with spells of lower level (or not filled at all.) Therefore, if you no longer qualify to complete casting the spell, those slots are empty and cannot be reused until the next time you do a full rest and refresh.
Scion of Coldshard 11-14-07, 05:50 PM	OK. Allow me to move this discussion along a little bit. Sure. This allows a wizard to cast most of the spell ahead of time and finish when it’s needed, even if she is under considerable pressure. Bolding mine. Ok. If, during the course of your adventure you lose that higher stat, those spells which you had prepared would be no longer castable by you Right. and therefore would cease to be partially cast, since you no longer have the stat requirements to cast that spell. Woah there! Just because you can no longer cast it because your stat isnt high enough that doesnt mean you suddenly lose it out of memory! You simply are not able to cast it at the current time. Much like if you have your hands tied so that you can no longer fulfill the 'S' component that doesnt mean you suddenly lose all spells in memory which require 'S' to cast! Now, to support this, I quote (also from the Player's Handbook, page 178): A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level." Your support for your statement is that when you get your spells for the day.. what? that if at some point later today your stat is going to change then you cannot prepare them now? By the time later today comes around they are already filled though... So, if you lack the ability score to cast the spell, you cannot cast it and that slot *must* be filled with spells of lower level (or not filled at all.) Therefore, if you no longer qualify to complete casting the spell, those slots are empty and cannot be reused until the next time you do a full rest and refresh. It sounds like you are going for either time travel or some form of precognition.. After all, 'must fill' was done earlier today so the 'filled' happened in the past.. Just because you cant put the spell in that slot 'right now' if you were preparing right now doesnt mean you couldnt 'then'.
Armendil 11-14-07, 05:52 PM	Note that if you do it the way I have described, fully within the rules, you dont have to jump through hoops of guessing and making houserules.[/QUOTE] I don't see what rules support you have for the proposition that a spellcaster may only lose a spell if a rules description specifically states a spell is lost. A less troublesome reading of the rules is not necessarily more logical or more correct. The game designers could not possibly have included instructions about every possible permutation of the D&D world. We are expected to extrapolate reasonably from the groundrules established, and the correct way to do that is not always well-defined. In this case, however, it is beyond cavil that a wizard cannot hold more spells in his head at any given time than his intelligence allows. Any reduction in that capacity must also reduce spell load. The following language supports this conclusion: "Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind." Removing a headband is the same as abandoning a spell, and it is accomplished by foregoing the beneficial effect of a previously functioning magical item.
groveborn 11-14-07, 05:57 PM	Sure. Ok. Right. Woah there! Just because you can no longer cast it because your stat isnt high enough that doesnt mean you suddenly lose it out of memory! You simply are not able to cast it at the current time. Much like if you have your hands tied so that you can no longer fulfill the 'S' component that doesnt mean you suddenly lose all spells in memory which require 'S' to cast! Your support for your statement is that when you get your spells for the day.. what? that if at some point later today your stat is going to change then you cannot prepare them now? By the time later today comes around they are already filled though... It sounds like you are going for either time travel or some form of precognition.. After all, 'must fill' was done earlier today so the 'filled' happened in the past.. Just because you cant put the spell in that slot 'right now' if you were preparing right now doesnt mean you couldnt 'then'. You're right that you don't lose a prepared spell just because you lack the ability to cast it. In fact, you'll retain it for as long as you like, provided you don't lose them somehow. You may always gain the Intelligence to cast them later. That being said, bonus slots are dependent on bonus stats. No bonus stats, no bonus slots.
mvincent 11-14-07, 06:00 PM	Actually, as you have pointed out, the rules are very vague in this respect, making it largely DM fiat in regards to this issue. Therefore, neither of us are correct and we should just agree to disagree on the issue until a ruling from Wizards comes down to clarify.That has already happened.
Scion of Coldshard 11-14-07, 06:02 PM	I don't see what rules support you have for the proposition that a spellcaster may only lose a spell if a rules description specifically states a spell is lost. So how many spells do you lose for taking 1 point of fire damage? How many spells do you lose for falling 30'? How many spells do you lose when the party tank kills a troll? Prepared Spell Retention Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind. The spell remains in her mind until it is cast, abandoned, or something (not described) makes them go away. So, the only thing we know is that they can go away, but it doesnt tell us how or when. The only reasonable conclusion that I see is that if something is going to make them go away it will say so. After all, we have no other way of knowing. A less troublesome reading of the rules is not necessarily more logical or more correct. This is true, but not helpful in this case since the way I have shown is both logical and correct ;) Plus, even if someone feels that there is a question and it is ambiguous which should they choose? The option with essentially no book keeping and no extra rules needed or one with lots of book keeping and having to make up extra rules that are likely unique to each game? Removing a headband is the same as abandoning a spell, You are really twisting and torturing those rules to come up with anything close to this. The abandoning process is described as happening during the spell selection process while memorizing.. and it is accomplished by foregoing the beneficial effect of a previously functioning magical item. Which is not the same as the magic item effect causing the wiping so it doesnt even fit with that sentence.
Scion of Coldshard 11-14-07, 06:04 PM	That being said, bonus slots are dependent on bonus stats. No bonus stats, no bonus slots. Yep, so if you dont have the right stat while refreshing for the day then you wont get them. Of course later changes to your stat dont change how many slots you picked up while preparing...
Undrhil 11-14-07, 06:33 PM	Fox's cunning both has insufficient duration and the spell itself says that it does not grant any bonus spells. Finally. I have figured this out. Based on your above statement, we can safely say that Fox's Cunning cannot grant any bonus spells, right? Now, enter the Headband of Intellect, a wondrous item created with the spell fox's cunning as a component. What does the DMG tell us about this marvelous item? Headband of Intellect: This device is a light cord with a small gem set so that it rests upon the forehead of the wearer. The headband adds to the wearer's Intelligence score in the form of an enhancement bonus of +2, +4 or +6. This enhancement bonus does not earn the wearer extra skill points when a new level is attained; use the unmodified Intelligence bonus to determine skill points. Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Wondrous Item, fox's cunning. It then lists prices. The definition of 'enhancement bonus' from the Player's Handbook, page 308. "enhancement bonus: A bonus that represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor). Or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor’s bonus to AC, they don’t apply against touch attacks." EDIT: What happened to the rest of my post? ;( EDIT2: Dang it, it cut off again!?!? To continue where this cut off: Since the headband of intellect is based on fox's cunning and fox's cunning doesn't provide bonus spells and the DMG nor the Player's Handbook state anywhere that the headband would provide bonus spellslots, we have to default to the spell used in creation of the headband. Since that doesn't provide bonus spells, neither then can the headband of intellect. So, you are correct, Scion: the person removing the headband of intellect would not lose any bonus spells since they didn't gain any bonus spells from wearing it.
Scion of Coldshard 11-14-07, 06:44 PM	Now, enter the Headband of Intellect, a wondrous item created with the spell fox's cunning as a component. The spells used during the items creation are immaterial to what the item actually does. The designers often try to match them up pretty well, but that doesnt really matter. Take the monks belt for instance. It uses the spell 'righteous might or transformation' during creation. The item doesnt really look to be giving the benefits of those spells very much though..
Undrhil 11-14-07, 06:51 PM	The spells used during the items creation are immaterial to what the item actually does. The designers often try to match them up pretty well, but that doesnt really matter. Take the monks belt for instance. It uses the spell 'righteous might or transformation' during creation. The item doesnt really look to be giving the benefits of those spells very much though.. But I used your logic for all of that, Scion: There was no written rule, so rule by example. Since fox's cunning doesn't grant bonus spells, I can't really see how something based on it *would*.
Scion of Coldshard 11-14-07, 07:00 PM	But I used your logic for all of that No, you are using other peoples logic in this thread.. making up rules that dont exist and then trying to pass them off as being true anyway. We have rules about when spells are lost, stat changes do not qualify. Making up rules is the department of others in this thread.
Undrhil 11-14-07, 07:15 PM	Well, show me where it says that the headband of intellect grants bonus spells or bonus spell slots then. No, you are using other peoples logic in this thread.. making up rules that dont exist and then trying to pass them off as being true anyway. We have rules about when spells are lost, stat changes do not qualify. Making up rules is the department of others in this thread. What rule did I make up this time?
Scion of Coldshard 11-14-07, 07:21 PM	Well, show me where it says that the headband of intellect grants bonus spells or bonus spell slots then. A higher int grants bonus spells for int casters. What rule did I make up this time? That the spells used as prereqs for making items give the item extra properties that are not actually called out in the items description.
Undrhil 11-14-07, 07:28 PM	A higher int grants bonus spells for int casters. But there is an exception for this: fox's cunning. That the spells used as prereqs for making items give the item extra properties that are not actually called out in the items description. I never said the spell gave the item extra properties. I implied that the spell used *defined* the item, which it does. You cannot create a headband of intellect with the spell fireball.
steventirey1985 11-14-07, 07:28 PM	What about this little thing: When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. It says ALL attributes associated with that score. The number of bonus spell slots are associated with the appropriate score.
Scion of Coldshard 11-14-07, 07:32 PM	But there is an exception for this: fox's cunning. Yes, from the spell, and it lists the exception. I never said the spell gave the item extra properties. From earlier: Since that doesn't provide bonus spells, neither then can the headband of intellect. This is you attributing a property to the item that does not actually exist. I implied that the spell used *defined* the item, which it does. You cannot create a headband of intellect with the spell fireball. The spell used does not define the item, the item definition defines the item. You cannot create a normal headband of intellect with the spell fireball that is true, but it is also completely irrelevant.
Scion of Coldshard 11-14-07, 07:35 PM	What about this little thing: It says ALL attributes associated with that score. The number of bonus spell slots are associated with the appropriate score. Yep, but the only time the amount you get is defined to be check looks to be during the time when the spell slots are refreshed. So when the value changes at another time what happens? The amount of bonus spells you could get if you refreshed 'right now' changes, but the amount you already received do not change since you are not refreshing your spells at the moment. Much like if you have the headband of intellect on and make a knowledge skill check later on when you take the headband off that roll you made does not suddenly get worse. Or like if you take off your gauntlets of dexterity you dont suddenly die because in the last battle someone would've dealt enough damage to you if you hadnt been wearing them.
ArcTan 11-14-07, 07:50 PM	Finally. I have figured this out. Based on your above statement, we can safely say that Fox's Cunning cannot grant any bonus spells, right? Now, enter the Headband of Intellect, a wondrous item created with the spell fox's cunning as a component. Stop right there. Creating an item using a spell as a component means nothing. It only means the spell is vaguely related to the item's properties. The item, however, *does not* follow the same rules as the spell. Bags of holding don't follow the same rules as Leomund's secret chest. A ring of force shield does not work like a wall of force. A brooch of shielding explicitly does *not* have the same effect as a shield spell. The fact that fox's cunning *specifically mentions* both bonus spells and skill points as something it *doesn't* give you, while the headband of intellect *only* mentions skill points, means that the HBoI, logically, does give you bonus spells. (If they wanted you to assume the same rules as fox's cunning, they wouldn't've said anything at all. Calling out skill points but not bonus spells means that the restrictions are what it *says* the restrictions are -- skill points don't change but bonus spells *do*.)
ArcTan 11-14-07, 07:54 PM	If I recall correctly you need to have a high enough stat in order to 'cast' the spell. Unless you are trying to say that you feel taking off the int booster would remove all 8th and 9th level spells from your memory? That would seem like a stretch, you'd have to have some rules quotes for that as well. You need the minimum casting stat to have the spell prepared in the first place. Otherwise you could prepare a spell too high for you to cast at the beginning of the day, leave it around in memory and then cast fox's cunning just before you wanted to use it. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level. Which means that if you were high enough Int to fill a slot with Mordenkainen's disjunction at the beginning of the day but you *become* too stupid to have that spell later on in the day, you can no longer have a spell slot filled with Mordenkainen's disjunction.
ArcTan 11-14-07, 07:57 PM	The rules here are clear enough. The only people who are having trouble with them are the ones assuming that the writers forgot huge swaths of text which forces a dm to make things up. The rules presented thus far work perfectly fine with the way I have shown.. Especially that one about, 'you only lose spells for these reasons..' which doesnt list stat changes. It says magic items and special attacks from monsters. The headband of intellect is a magic item. Int-draining attacks are special attacks from monsters. Where's the contradiction? (Indeed, it seems there's *more* of a contradiction if you *don't* accept this, because in core I don't recall any magic items *at all* that say you lose spells. There are some specifically tailored spell-slot-loss items out there in the splats, maybe, but those were written long after this rule was written.)
Undrhil 11-14-07, 09:46 PM	Yep, but the only time the amount you get is defined to be check looks to be during the time when the spell slots are refreshed. So, someone finally quotes a rule which specifically says what we are *all* trying to tell you and you disregard it. I believe that makes you a troll. Much like if you have the headband of intellect on and make a knowledge skill check later on when you take the headband off that roll you made does not suddenly get worse. Or like if you take off your gauntlets of dexterity you dont suddenly die because in the last battle someone would've dealt enough damage to you if you hadnt been wearing them. Actually, if you took enough DEX damage during the last battle so that removing the gauntlets of dexterity would drop your DEX to 0, then I wouldn't recommend removing those gauntlets. It *would* drop your DEX to 0 and you wouldn't be able to move. Of course it won't kill you, it'll just make you helpless so someone else *can* kill you. :) I understand my mistake with the wondrous items and the spells. Thanks for getting me to see that little error in judgement. :)
kalstrand 11-14-07, 10:34 PM	I admit I quit reading about half way through the third page but to me this is exactly the type of situation the FAQ was created to fix. There are no clear rules on what happens so as was shown very early in the thread the FAQ cleared it up.
Scion of Coldshard 11-15-07, 01:43 AM	You need the minimum casting stat to have the spell prepared in the first place. Yes. That is what I said earlier. Which means that if you were high enough Int to fill a slot with Mordenkainen's disjunction at the beginning of the day but you *become* too stupid to have that spell later on in the day, you can no longer have a spell slot filled with Mordenkainen's disjunction. No. It means you have it prepared but are unable to finish casting it because you are now not smart enough. Nothing says that you suddenly forget the spell! It says magic items and special attacks from monsters. The headband of intellect is a magic item. Int-draining attacks are special attacks from monsters. It says: such as the effects of magic items Taking an item off doesnt really seem to be an 'effect of a magic item', but even if it was there is stil nothing saying that you lose the slots! Monsters also have str draining attacks as a special attack, how many spell slots do you lose from those? Just because something happens to be a magic item or a special attack from a monster does not mean that it automatically makes spell slots go away. Where's the contradiction? Contradiction? The contradiction is that the rules dont say that you forget the spells but you are saying that spells are forgotten. You are working contrary to the rules. in core I don't recall any magic items *at all* that say you lose spells I already listed one type. So, someone finally quotes a rule which specifically says what we are *all* trying to tell you and you disregard it. The rules quote you are refering to says nothing about losing your currently prepared spell slots. I have already covered the rule quoted multiple times, it being quoted again doesnt further your position any since it doesnt support your position. If you can find something that actually says you forget the spells you have in memory and either contradicts or adds to the section in 'prepared slot retention' then feel free to post it up! Considering that you feel it is so obvious then there should be something which actually supports your position! And, again, no, the quote posted above does not support your position because it does not say that you lose those spells you have prepared (since they no longer depend on having the high stat), nor does it change anything about the spell retention section or add anything to it. There are no clear rules on what happens The rules are as clear as most anything else in the game. They are as clear as humans getting a bonus feat and extra skill points but not being able to shoot fire out of their eyes as an innate racial ability. The rules state how you get spells, list ways to lose them, and do not allow for extrapolation based on a list of examples.. it literally works in the same way other things do in that something needs to specifically call out a special feature in order to work. There are no rules about the various bits of spell selection for randomly lost spells from lowering stats.. but that makes sense, since you dont lose any from lowering stats. We also dont have a rule about characters bursting into flame when their current hp is a multiple of 13 or followup rules about what to do about their gear. We dont have those rules because the first would be stupid and the latter because the first rule doesnt exist, why make rules to cover situations that dont happen?
ArcTan 11-15-07, 02:17 AM	Yes. That is what I said earlier. So you agree that if you go below the minimum casting stat, you can no longer have it prepared? No. It means you have it prepared but are unable to finish casting it because you are now not smart enough. Nothing says that you suddenly forget the spell! You have to have the minimum casting stat to *have the spell prepared*. If you don't, you can't have it prepared anymore. Why is this so hard? So you're saying that I can have someone cast fox's cunning on me just before I start learning spells in the morning, prepare a bunch of 7th- and 8th-level spells I normally can't, and then cast fox's cunning on myself again just before I cast them? It says: Taking an item off doesnt really seem to be an 'effect of a magic item', but even if it was there is stil nothing saying that you lose the slots! The fact that having slots is an effect of having the stat and not having the slots is an effect of not having the stat is. Monsters also have str draining attacks as a special attack, how many spell slots do you lose from those? You'd just check the bonus spell slot table to see. If you happened to have Str as a casting stat. Just because something happens to be a magic item or a special attack from a monster does not mean that it automatically makes spell slots go away. Of course not. However, losing points from your casting stat does. The point is there's nothing *else* in core that would seem to fit this description, other than negative levels (which items don't give you). The rule must be referring to *something* when it says magic items can lead to your losing spell slots.
ArcTan 11-15-07, 02:18 AM	There are no rules about the various bits of spell selection for randomly lost spells from lowering stats.. but that makes sense, since you dont lose any from lowering stats. We also dont have a rule about characters bursting into flame when their current hp is a multiple of 13 or followup rules about what to do about their gear. We dont have those rules because the first would be stupid and the latter because the first rule doesnt exist, why make rules to cover situations that dont happen? We have a rule for how you lose spell slots when you lose a level. Why doesn't it also apply to losing Int? (By your argument, you shouldn't lose any spell slots when your level goes down, either.)
Bahumut 11-15-07, 03:10 AM	We have a rule for how you lose spell slots when you lose a level. Why doesn't it also apply to losing Int? (By your argument, you shouldn't lose any spell slots when your level goes down, either.) of course you dont lose spell slots! you just have to prepare lower level spells in them! for me, everyone i have EVER gamed with, and every DM i have ever played under, when you remove the HBoI, the spells go poof. you have to be wearing it when you prepare spells to get the extra spell slots for the day. if you are NOT wearing it when you prepare spells, you CANNOT put it on later and prepare spells in those slots. does anyone besides scion object to the way i do it? i feel like either im missing something big, or someone is just looking for a way to stick their +10 Int headband on, mem their spells, then switch to their headband of telepathy for the day.
groveborn 11-15-07, 06:21 AM	I'm thinking Scion knows the rules well enough to know he's losing this battle. Too many heavy hitters are coming in on this and telling him he's wrong. You can't win against that, it means you're wrong. 3 pages of people telling you you're wrong, with ample proof, means you're wrong. Get over yourself Scion. Give it up. You lose. Further argument indicates lack of intelligence, and that you've lost your spell slots. Wait until you're rested, and have a new battle, with your intelligence boosting equipment on, then come back... And you've lost your slots again. Seriously, consider that you've been beaten, even if you disagree. Whether you can agree that you've been mistaken or not, simply accept your defeat.
Scion of Coldshard 11-15-07, 06:28 PM	So you agree that if you go below the minimum casting stat, you can no longer have it prepared? Nope, mostly because the rules dont support that. You have to have the minimum casting stat to *have the spell prepared*. Correction: You must have the minimum casting stat to 'prepare the spell'. There is a big difference there! So you're saying that I can have someone cast fox's cunning on me just before I start learning spells in the morning, prepare a bunch of 7th- and 8th-level spells I normally can't, and then cast fox's cunning on myself again just before I cast them? The rules are silent on what happens if your stat changes while performing an action like this one. I would say it is up to the dm whether it would be allowed for a short duration effect to work on a long duration ritual. The fact that having slots is an effect of having the stat and not having the slots is an effect of not having the stat is. You arent understanding what I said. Having the bonus slots for when you prepare is a function of a higher stat which is in turn a function of having the item on. However, taking the item off is not an effect of an item, it is the lack of an effect of an item. You'd just check the bonus spell slot table to see. If you happened to have Str as a casting stat. So if you gain your DC's off of strength but your bonus slots off of something else how many spell slots do you lose? And, again, where is the rule that states you lose those prepared spells? Of course not. However, losing points from your casting stat does. Not without a rule saying that it is true. Just like you dont lose all of your prepared spells because the someone casts charm person on you, it doesnt happen because the rules do not state that it does happen. The point is there's nothing *else* in core that would seem to fit this description, other than negative levels (which items don't give you). Items dont give you negative levels? Leaving aside the easy example of a wand of enervation, because that is a trivial example, how about a weapon with the Anarchic special ability? We have a rule for how you lose spell slots when you lose a level. Why doesn't it also apply to losing Int? Why should we apply the same rules for losing a level to losing int?? Those are very different things! In a similar vien, why dont we force a caster to lose their highest level spell at random for every 5 points of damage they take? After all, negative level does 5 points and it causes a loss of a spell...
Scion of Coldshard 11-15-07, 06:30 PM	does anyone besides scion object to the way i do it? Why should I, or anyone else, care about how you do it? Do it any way you like, just dont claim it is the way the rules say it is supposed to work.
Scion of Coldshard 11-15-07, 06:47 PM	I'm thinking Scion knows the rules well enough to know he's losing this battle. Losing what battle? I have actual rules on my side while the other side has 'but I feel it should work that way so it does!' or 'but we've always played that way!' arguements. If it works the way some people here are saying then why cant they come up with actual rules support? Why do they simply assume that a change occurs even when there is nothing that says it occurs?? The time traveling episode that some people feel must happen is really crazy as well.. I dont see how they can justify that in any way within the rules. Seriously, consider that you've been beaten, even if you disagree. Yes, you should seriously consider that you have been beaten.. mostly because you have no rules support while I do. I dont care how many people would like to shout out that they want it to be different, if they have no rules support for their position then their stance is valueless when discussing the RAW. So far this is one of the big ones: Prepared Spell Retention Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind. With this we know that spells remain in the casters mind until completed, it is abandoned, or 'certain other events' happen. Since those certain other events are not listed here, nor even any guidelines, it must be assumed that anything which can wipe a prepared spell will say so. To assume otherwise is to have no idea at all what might or might not wipe a spell from a characters mind. There are examples of places in the rules which describe that spells are lost and how. There is no such example found so far that describes a similar event for stat loss or gain. Death and Prepared Spell Retention If a spellcaster dies, all prepared spells stored in his or her mind are wiped away. Potent magic (such as raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection) can recover the lost energy when it recovers the character. Negative level If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level. Concentration If the check fails, the action automatically fails and is wasted. If you were in the process of casting a spell, the spell is lost. Where is the rule for stat changes?? Something like this rule: If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly. We have this: To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. Which does not mention needing to have the high stat to currently have the spell 'in memory', only to learn, prepare, or cast. If I was to believe people here then this quote: For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. Would lead me to believe that when the wizards int bonus changes later then the spellbook will immediately gain or lose 1st level spells! We have many examples here.. but none of them say that the currently prepared spells change when your casting stat changes. If it is true that it happens find the rule that says so!
Toki_Wartooth 11-15-07, 07:00 PM	I'm thinking Scion knows the rules well enough to know he's losing this battle.Losing what battle? I have actual rules on my sideIf nothing else, I believe Scion has effectively disproved groveborn's assertion.
Scion of Coldshard 11-15-07, 07:02 PM	If nothing else, I believe Scion has effectively disproved groveborn's assertion. Yes, I know the rules well enough to know I am not losing the battle. I just made a long post with lots of rules quotes, perhaps you would care to pull in some rules support yourself? Preferably relevant to the topic of course.
ArcTan 11-15-07, 07:04 PM	The rules are silent on what happens if your stat changes while performing an action like this one. I would say it is up to the dm whether it would be allowed for a short duration effect to work on a long duration ritual. There's no problem with duration here. Filling a subset of your slots that's less than 25% of your total slots never takes longer than 15 minutes. Fox's cunning is 1 min/lvl, so you just need to be 15th level yourself or have someone to cast it on you who is, or else have an *8th*-level caster with the Extend Spell metamagic feat. You will have a boosted Int for the entire duration of the ritual. Nothing you have said makes this not work in your world. This is very good news for gish characters.
Scion of Coldshard 11-15-07, 07:06 PM	Nothing you have said makes this not work in your world. This is very good news for gish characters. Since I have only used the rules presented for the game to support my arguements would you care to show where the rules support it not working?
Scion of Coldshard 11-15-07, 07:11 PM	Upon further thought, it looks like for those who are saying a decrease in a stat removes spells from memory then when a spell like fox's cunning wears off that character will lose spells equal to the change in the bonus spell chart for each spell level. It doesnt matter that the spell didnt give them in the first place, those supporting the stance that a stat decrease removes them have merely said that a stat change makes spells go away. That does make things pretty rough for whoever is playing with such a houserule. Unless of course the houserule is further modified by other houserules to remove this.. but that is a very large, bulky, and time consuming set of houserules already.. so much easier to just do what the rules say to begin with. :cool:
mvincent 11-15-07, 07:21 PM	I just made a long post with lots of rules quotesThe FAQ actually counts as 'rules'. As mentioned, the FAQ, like any supplement, can provide new rules as long as they do not conflict with a source that has primacy. I do not believe that the FAQ ruling demonstrably conflicts with the core rules you presented. Mind you, if the FAQ ruled the other way, I would not contest it either. Given the length of this thread, the matter is evidently (i.e. evident to all but you) open to interpretation... which is the sort of thing the FAQ is intended to resolve... and in doing so will inevitably conflict with the opinions of many people... some of which have high levels of cognitive dissonance. Haven't you ever rolled your eyes at such a person? Haven't you ever wondered "don't they know how they appear to others"?
groveborn 11-15-07, 07:43 PM	Table 1-1 in the PHB. You put on a device that grants one bonus spell, right? You remove said device, it will stop granting that spell. You can't access it. What happens to the spell? That's not really discussed in the rules, but since the slot ceases to exist it can be assumed that it, too, ceases existing. It's not a leap of logic, nor anti rules, it's following the rules. You can't keep the bonus spells, even if they're prepared. They exist in a slot that stops existing when you lose that bonus. It doesn't only check once, it follows as it's adjusted. You have no rules saying otherwise, you merely ignore those rules thrown at you because you don't like them. Give it up. Or perhaps you can actually prove your point, Scion? This table proves mine. As for having prepared spells stay in your mind until they've been cast, abandoned, or lost, that's flavor, and not rules. It explains how they work, not devising a way to keep them. The wizard and cleric must prepare their spells, while the sorcerer and bard do not. You can't unbalance it by giving one permanent extra spells, while the others lose them. Furthermore, if you can keep those prepared spells after losing the bonus slots, then you may get more simply by putting it back on for the following day's preparation, ultimately gaining an unlimited number of bonus spells. The slots disapear, as do the prepared spells in them. Table 1-1 page 8, Player's Handbook. Dammit, just give up.
Scion of Coldshard 11-15-07, 07:47 PM	The FAQ actually counts as 'rules'. Not really, it tries to provide clarification to the rules. Sometimes it is correct, sometimes it is incorrect, occasionally it contradicts itself. It isnt supposed to 'change' the games rules, although if it declared an errata and labled it properly then I would likely treat it as errata that they didnt feel like putting in the normal errata file. The FAQ, in this instance, is trying to add a rule that doesnt exist. If it is going to do that then it should be listed as errata with the appropriate text. Since the change is not needed in this case and creates extra headaches and rules issues I am not really sure why anyone would pay it any heed at all. Laugh at it, call it silly, and then go on without the extra book keeping seems like a much better plan to me. Note that the FAQ doesnt even say that you lose the spells when you take off the item, only when you 'lose' it. It doesnt describe how or if you should keep track of which slots are from the bonus. It doesnt describe whether or not you only lose from bonus slots or if you only lose from the specific slot you chose to be associated with some level of your bonus. It doesnt really tell us much of anything at all. This means that not only is the FAQ making up rules but it is also giving us insufficient information to even know how to do what it has made up! As a different example. If the FAQ declared that heighten spell increased the dice cap on spells that it was used on there would be some issues as well. Especially if it left the explination as hollow as the explination for stat boosters. Given the length of this thread, the matter is evidently open to interpretation. One does not follow the other. I've seen whole groups of people argue until they were blue in the face that there were no core +0 LA races with a bonus to any mental stats. Even when told the page number and which book such a thing was on there were still people who argued that it didnt exist. In this case people are saying that a rule exists but they cant seem to find it. Or that the rule should follow from other rules.. even though those other rules have nothing to do with the question here, such as the rules for losing a level somehow relating to the rules for losing stats. We have rules that show us what is going on. The RAW as it currently stands is simple, easy, and doesnt require extra book keeping. The FAQ change is complex, ill defined, and requires potentially a great deal of book keeping. Why not just go with the RAW?
Scion of Coldshard 11-15-07, 07:54 PM	t since the slot ceases to exist it can be assumed that it, too, ceases existing The only time put forward with rules so far for when the chart and such are checked is during the preperation/ritual phase. So, where is your rules support for something the character currently has, not the virtual things that he could have if he was to prepare 'right now', going away? As for having prepared spells stay in your mind until they've been cast, abandoned, or lost, that's flavor, and not rules. The SRD does not have an enormous amount of flavor text in it. What grounds do you have to say that this particular passage is flavor text? You can't unbalance it by giving one permanent extra spells, while the others lose them. And why would the others lose them? Furthermore, if you can keep those prepared spells after losing the bonus slots, then you may get more simply by putting it back on for the following day's preparation, ultimately gaining an unlimited number of bonus spells. And how would that happen? When you prepare spells you get slots for your class(es) and stat(s), any that are already full may be either kept or abandoned in favor of other spells. Where is the gain? The slots disapear, as do the prepared spells in them. Table 1-1 page 8, Player's Handbook. That table is referenced when getting your spells for the day. Do you have a rules quote that says spells go away with a decreasing stat and/or a rule saying that the table is checked for something useful at some other time? Note that even the much vaunted FAQ does not say you lose the spells when you remove the item.
groveborn 11-15-07, 08:09 PM	Funny, I don't recall anywhere, anything saying that anything only checks during a certain time to see if it is valid. Spell Effects that have been cast being the exception, of course. No rule tells us that it only checks at time of preparation. In fact, you're making that up. Now, prove it. Prove that it only checks during that time. You can't, because you're flat wrong.
Scion of Coldshard 11-15-07, 08:14 PM	Funny, I don't recall anywhere, anything saying that anything only checks during a certain time to see if it is valid. The spell preperation and retention rules have already been provided. So, we know that in order to get spells for the day you have to check that chart. What we dont know is whether or not that chart changing at a 'later time' is one of the 'other events' which can cause the loss of spells. Without something saying that such a change actually matters to what you already have in memory then the change doesnt matter, unless you are currently trying to get more spells by the normal method. No rule tells us that it only checks at time of preparation. This statement is not what I said. I would appreciate it if you did not try to put words in my mouth or build up any strawmen.
groveborn 11-15-07, 08:43 PM	You can take it off without losing the bonuses just fine. The bonus from having a high stat are only checked once, while you are gaining/regaining. After that only things that specifically state that they make you lose bits actually make you lose them. For example, negative levels specifically state it, but stat damaging poison does not. So once you get the bonus feel free to take the hat off and put on another, your save DC's will suffer though. Really? What words did I put into your mouth? What strawman did I make? Defend your position, don't deflect. Or give up, whichever you'd like.
Scion of Coldshard 11-15-07, 08:47 PM	Really? What words did I put into your mouth? What strawman did I make? I said: The only time put forward with rules so far for when the chart and such are checked is during the preperation/ritual phase. To which you replied with: No rule tells us that it only checks at time of preparation. You do see the difference between these two statements, right?
yrogerg 11-15-07, 08:56 PM	What about this little thing: It says ALL attributes associated with that score. The number of bonus spell slots are associated with the appropriate score. Yep, but the only time the amount you get is defined to be check looks to be during the time when the spell slots are refreshed. Requoted, with emphasis: When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. When: conjunction 1. at what time: to know when to be silent. 2. at the time or in the event that: when we were young; when the noise stops. 3. at any time; whenever: He is impatient when he is kept waiting. 4. upon or after which; and then: We had just fallen asleep when the bell rang. Therefore, the spell slots are adjusted at the time or in the event, whenever it happens, that the Int score is changed, upon which, and then, the spell slots are adjusted accordingly. Right there, the rules are telling us when the number of spell slots gets changed. It's when the Int score gets changed. If it's not changed, and no other rules apply (see negative levels and level loss), then there's no reason to check and you can assume, on refreshing, that you have the same number of spell slots as the last time you had the same level and ability score. So... Argument over, right?
Scion of Coldshard 11-15-07, 11:35 PM	Requoted, with emphasis: You can quote that passage all you like, but it still doesnt say anything about losing prepared spells. This is, as stated many times already, because the only rules we have in this thread so far only check how many bonus spells you get while you are refreshing for the day. So, sure, the amount of bonus spells the character would get 'right now' if they were to prepare 'right now' might be different, but since the character presumably 'isnt' doing so right this moment then we have nothing telling us to bother with anything. Much like if someone attacks you and says something like, 'I got a 15 to hit, does that meet or beat your AC?' and you respond with, 'my fire resistance is 30' they are likely to be confused.. why? Because it isnt relevant at the moment. It might matter once you are hit so that part of the damage will be mitigated, but it doesnt matter 'right now'. In a similar way when the stat changes saying that your bonus spells change, if you were going to prepare 'right now' but arent, is likewise confusing.. why bother to even mention it if there is nothing saying it will do anything? If the change to the stat is going to change something then the rules should say so. We have one rule that talks about retention and makes it pretty clear that anything that will get rid of spells will say so. Changing how many spells you would get if you were to prepare right now doesnt tell us anything about what actually happens. If nothing says to do something then we simply dont do anything.
mvincent 11-15-07, 11:53 PM	Not really Yes really. Like any supplement, it can actually provide new rules. It isnt supposed to 'change' the games rulesAs I've stated several times, any rules it presents that contradicts existing core rules would be invalid. Such changes would require errata. The FAQ, in this instance, is trying to add a rule that doesnt exist.It can do that (sometimes it even needs to in order to do it's job). If it is going to do that then it should be listed as errataActually, it would only need to be errata if it were going to change existing core rules.
Scion of Coldshard 11-16-07, 12:03 AM	Yes really. Prove it. My copy of the FAQ says: If you have a question about the D&D game rules, you might find them within this FAQ. Not only does that not sound like it is going to add new rules but also the purpose of FAQ's in general is to answer questions about some subject matter, not add to the subject itself. As I've stated several times, any rules it presents that contradicts existing core rules would be invalid. Such changes would require errata. Adding new rules into the core requires errata as well, since it is changing the contents of the rules. In this case, however, it is simply incorrect. It isnt adding anything useful in, at best it is adding part of a subset of suggested houserules and is woefully incomplete and at worst it is simply confusing people because it is so very wrong and needlessly complicated.
yrogerg 11-16-07, 12:03 AM	Err... because you can't have more spells than you have spell slots? Because that's what spell slots are? Spell Slots The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level. A reasonable reading of this passage would be you can't cast more spells than you have slots for.
groveborn 11-16-07, 12:07 AM	You can quote that passage all you like, but it still doesnt say anything about losing prepared spells. This is, as stated many times already, because the only rules we have in this thread so far only check how many bonus spells you get while you are refreshing for the day. So, sure, the amount of bonus spells the character would get 'right now' if they were to prepare 'right now' might be different, but since the character presumably 'isnt' doing so right this moment then we have nothing telling us to bother with anything. Much like if someone attacks you and says something like, 'I got a 15 to hit, does that meet or beat your AC?' and you respond with, 'my fire resistance is 30' they are likely to be confused.. why? Because it isnt relevant at the moment. It might matter once you are hit so that part of the damage will be mitigated, but it doesnt matter 'right now'. In a similar way when the stat changes saying that your bonus spells change, if you were going to prepare 'right now' but arent, is likewise confusing.. why bother to even mention it if there is nothing saying it will do anything? If the change to the stat is going to change something then the rules should say so. We have one rule that talks about retention and makes it pretty clear that anything that will get rid of spells will say so. Changing how many spells you would get if you were to prepare right now doesnt tell us anything about what actually happens. If nothing says to do something then we simply dont do anything. And what rule do you quote to back this up? So far you've tried unsuccessfully to invalidate every rule given. You still fail to prove your position. You've managed to get every rule that disproves you entered into this conversation, and yet you remain ignorant. You are wrong. I'll say it again, YOU ARE WRONG. We've proven this. To continue this, from your standpoint, would be plain ignorance. I can only assume that you're so stubborn, to the point of obsessive, that you cannot learn from other people. I have to assume, then, that you are not arguing for any reason other than the desire to see other people angered. You've been disproven in every rebuttal. Every one of them. Continue this and I for one will deem you unworthy of further response. I encourage the rest of the community to do the same. You're hopeless. Four pages of being wrong. Bush isn't THIS dumb. And he's got a "hard" job...
Tzzird 11-16-07, 02:16 AM	[/QOUTE] Nope. When the intellect stops being active, bonus spells/powers are lost, even if you put the band back on (IMO - I can't cite a specific rule at the moment)[/QUOTE] When you put it on again you could reprepare spells as if you had left them blank earlier in the day.
ArcTan 11-16-07, 02:20 AM	No. The description of losing a spell slot explicitly says that losing one is like casting it or abandoning it. It's "wiped" and it can't be reused until your slots refresh next morning.
Bahumut 11-16-07, 02:25 AM	The FAQ actually counts as 'rules'. As mentioned, the FAQ, like any supplement, can provide new rules as long as they do not conflict with a source that has primacy. how can anyone think that the FAQ, which is official WoTC sanctioned clarifications to rules fights like this, can be ignored? Given the length of this thread, the matter is evidently (i.e. evident to all but you) open to interpretation... which is the sort of thing the FAQ is intended to resolve... and in doing so will inevitably conflict with the opinions of many people... some of which have high levels of cognitive dissonance. funny that you mention cognitive dissonance...isn't it amazing that some people's minds will, as a defense mechanism, block out new information that doesn't fit with their paradigm? i think theres a few people in this thread, not JUST Scion, that are suffering from excessive cognitive dissonance.
groveborn 11-16-07, 04:24 AM	GUILTY.... Still...
Bahumut 11-16-07, 06:35 AM	GUILTY.... Still... but at least you have the balls to admit it =D i've already said how i play it, it keeps abuse down, but i have NO FRICKIN clue if it's the "right" way. hey, i just thought of another analogy for it...you are level 10, with 16 base Con and a +4 amulet of health; if you remove the amulet, your max HP goes down by 20, and subsequently, so does your current health...if you put the amulet back on after that, your max HP goes back up by 20, BUT your current HP DOES NOT INCREASE just because your max HP is higher again. i dunno, anyone wanna check my logic? it is 5am here =D
Scion of Coldshard 11-16-07, 12:39 PM	because you can't have more spells than you have spell slots? No one is arguing that point. Although they could, using an item like the pearl of power and saying that it allows you more spells per day than you have spell slots. A reasonable reading of this passage would be you can't cast more spells than you have slots for. Which is irrelevant. Once the ritual for the day is completed the character has those slots. The slots are already given to the character. What we need in order for slots to be lost is saying that something causes them to be lost. Saying that if the character was to prepare at the moment they would get less tells us nothing about what to do if the character is not preparing at the moment. And what rule do you quote to back this up? To back up the fact that we need a rule to tell us to do something? I guess that would be the same rule that says a human doesnt get the racial ability to kill any creature within sight at will as a racial ability as well, the rules dont say that he can do it so he cant. I get the impression that you dont really know what a proof is though. In the case of this thread in order to prove that the spells are lost there will need to be a rule that says so, or a chain of rules that eventually gets us there. You, and others in this thread, have not shown either of these. What is going on is that several people here are 'assuming' a rule exists and then declaring that there is a hole in the rules relating to the rule that they have made up. This really isnt that tough. I have shown where the rules state what causes spell slots to be lost, a stat dropping was not part of it. I have shown where the rules show that the bonus spells are being checked for, a similar rule for when/how it is checked at other times has not been produced. I have shown that other instances in the rules specifically call out changes, both with spell slot changes and in other instances such as constitution calling out that hp change with a change in con with a special restriction, but any special references relating to stat changes have not been produced by the opposition. Even the FAQ, should it be believed, does not state that losing the bonus to the stat causes a change in spell slots! In essence, those who are saying the opposite of what I am saying have not shown that they have a leg to stand on. They only offer up what they think 'should' be happening or use poor logic chains that do not actually lead to their conclusions. how can anyone think that the FAQ, which is official WoTC sanctioned clarifications to rules fights like this, can be ignored? Pretty easily in fact. The FAQ is supposed to answer questions about the ruleset. As such, if one knows the rules then they shouldnt need the FAQ at all. If the FAQ is adding in changes to the ruleset then it is effectively doing something it should not be doing, instead the errata document should be used so that the changes are permanent and in the proper placement and then the FAQ should refer to the errata document. This would allow future edictions of the book to be able to reflect the necessary changes easily instead of having to look through several sources. hey, i just thought of another analogy for it...you are level 10, with 16 base Con and a +4 amulet of health; if you remove the amulet, your max HP goes down by 20, and subsequently, so does your current health...if you put the amulet back on after that, your max HP goes back up by 20, BUT your current HP DOES NOT INCREASE just because your max HP is higher again. i dunno, anyone wanna check my logic? it is 5am here =D Your hp might not change by 20 first off. Next up, when your con changes the rules say your hp change.. one would assume that means current and max. If you wish to rule it the other way expect a lot less people to be playing barbarians all of a sudden..
risner 11-16-07, 03:08 PM	Prove it. Adding new rules into the core requires errata as well, since it is changing the contents of the rules. You can't prove it to your satisfaction, since you have unique (or at least rare) views that WotC and most others do not share. Anything in the FAQ that doesn't directly contradict the core is a rule. It has the same value as if the lines were in the PHB. The exceptions are few and here are the exceptions: 1) If the FAQ said a Longsword weighs 100 lbs, it would be considered incorrect. 2) If the FAQ said "a reasonable house rule would be" or some other line that gave the impression the following is going to deviate from the rules and provide an approach as to how to rule (as a DM) in that situation. In short, if the answer is short and sweet, then it is a rule. It is how the game is played, if you disagree, then fine, but your position should be kept to yourself. It isn't the common one. It isn't the one WoTC suggests you use and it isn't the best one for the game. As for your last comment about "the errata's job is to change things" or some such statement. That is rather convenient for you, since you know they will never publish errata for the majority of things in the FAQ because you likely know they consider the issue settled by adding it to the FAQ. You will never see errata for those subjects because they are deemed unnecessary either because they believe the RAW is clear enough and the FAQ solves the issue with those who didn't "get it" when reading the RAW or they believe or the question is so unique that if every question of the rules was answered directly in the rules the books would be huge.
Scion of Coldshard 11-16-07, 03:21 PM	You can't prove it to your satisfaction, since you have unique (or at least rare) views that WotC and most others do not share. Do you have anything written by WOTC in some fashion that says the FAQ is allowed to make up new rules? Note though that the FAQ does talk about adding recommended houserules. This is not one of those times however. The FAQ states: If you lose the item, you immediately lose the bonus spell slots the item gave you, starting with any uncast spells you have of the appropriate levels. It is not worded as a recommended houserule as other places in the FAQ. It is simply described as being true, which leads to the assumption that it is what the rules already say before taking into account the FAQ. There are no conditions given, no recommendations of how to follow through, and the reader is simply left to wonder where this rule might be. Even if we assume that this is a new rule created by the FAQ that should be used it still doesnt say that when the bonus from the stat booster is lost due to taking off the item that the spells are lost.. it says that when you 'lose the item' you lose the bonus slots it gave you. So, where is this rule that the FAQ is referencing to answer this question? Actually, where is the set of rules telling us how to proceed through the entire process, both forwards and backwards? No one here has been able to produce it. It doesnt look to exist. Which means that the FAQ is incorrect along with the proposed new houserule being very poorly described to the point of needing a lot of houserules created by the dm just to use it.
Undrhil 11-16-07, 04:02 PM	If you lose the item, you immediately lose the bonus spell slots the item gave you, starting with any uncast spells you have of the appropriate levels. The FAQ is doing what you keep proclaiming it is supposed to be doing: clarifying rules. You say that there is no rule for when you lose spell slots except for those rather vague entries in the PHB, well ... guess what? Here's the FAQ clarifying the rules on this. If the FAQ cannot add a new facet to the rules for clarification, how do you expect it to clarify rules? Just reword them? That would be rediculous in the extreme. The purpose of the FAQ is to clarify rules, not be a grammar/spelling/prose nazi. On top of this, I have yet to see you point out a rule that says, specifically, that losing the INT points lets you keep those spell slots. You have shown us rules of when spell slots are lost, granted, but no rules about removing magic items that are granting bonuses and keeping those bonuses around. Where is your proof of this?
Scion of Coldshard 11-16-07, 04:09 PM	The FAQ is doing what you keep proclaiming it is supposed to be doing: clarifying rules. Then you should have no problem quoting the rule(s) that it is trying to clarify. If the FAQ cannot add a new facet to the rules for clarification, how do you expect it to clarify rules? By giving a more indepth explination than the rules cover, preferably also quoting the rules and giving page numbers. So, actual explinations. If it runs up against something that actually isnt covered by the rules then it should say so and at that point I have no problem with it suggesting houserules.. which is what it does in other sections. On top of this, I have yet to see you point out a rule that says, specifically, that losing the INT points lets you keep those spell slots. You missed the rules on spell retention? Or are you looking for a rule that says, 'you do not lose spell slots when your casting stat changes'? If so, find me the rule that says taking 5 points of fire damage does not cause the character to lose a spell slot, and then find me the rule that says humans do not gain wings when they say the word 'ipsy', and then find me the rule that says all gnomes are not transparent when under a blanket, and... The rules do say what can and cannot be done, but generally if there is no rule telling you to do something then you dont do it.
Undrhil 11-16-07, 05:13 PM	Then you should have no problem quoting the rule(s) that it is trying to clarify. Prepared Spell Retention Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind. Bolding mine. Now, couple this with the quote from the FAQ: If you lose the item, you immediately lose the bonus spell slots the item gave you, starting with any uncast spells you have of the appropriate levels. There you go. Ruling (from the SRD) and clarification (from the FAQ.) Now, to be safe, I will also define another word. lose /luz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[looz] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, lost, los·ing. –verb (used with object) 1. to come to be without (something in one's possession or care), through accident, theft, etc., so that there is little or no prospect of recovery: I'm sure I've merely misplaced my hat, not lost it. 2. to fail inadvertently to retain (something) in such a way that it cannot be immediately recovered: I just lost a dime under this sofa. 3. to suffer the deprivation of: to lose one's job; to lose one's life. 4. to be bereaved of by death: to lose a sister. 5. to fail to keep, preserve, or maintain: to lose one's balance; to lose one's figure. 6. (of a clock or watch) to run slower by: The watch loses three minutes a day. 7. to give up; forfeit the possession of: to lose a fortune at the gaming table. 8. to get rid of: to lose one's fear of the dark; to lose weight. 9. to bring to destruction or ruin (usually used passively): Ship and crew were lost. 10. to condemn to hell; damn. 11. to have slip from sight, hearing, attention, etc.: to lose him in the crowd. 12. to stray from or become ignorant of (one's way, directions, etc.): to lose one's bearings. 13. to leave far behind in a pursuit, race, etc.; outstrip: She managed to lose the other runners on the final lap of the race. 14. to use to no purpose; waste: to lose time in waiting. 15. to fail to have, get, catch, etc.; miss: to lose a bargain. 16. to fail to win (a prize, stake, etc.): to lose a bet. 17. to be defeated in (a game, lawsuit, battle, etc.): He has lost very few cases in his career as a lawyer. 18. to cause the loss of: The delay lost the battle for them. 19. to let (oneself) go astray, miss the way, etc.: We lost ourselves in the woods. 20. to allow (oneself) to become absorbed or engrossed in something and oblivious to all else: I had lost myself in thought. 21. (of a physician) to fail to preserve the life of (a patient). 22. (of a woman) to fail to be delivered of (a live baby) because of miscarriage, complications in childbirth, etc. –verb (used without object) 23. to suffer loss: to lose on a contract. 24. to suffer defeat or fail to win, as in a contest, race, or game: We played well, but we lost. 25. to depreciate in effectiveness or in some other essential quality: a classic that loses in translation. 26. (of a clock, watch, etc.) to run slow. —Verb phrase27. lose out, to suffer defeat or loss; fail to obtain something desired: He got through the preliminaries, but lost out in the finals. —Idiom28. lose face. face (def. 48). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Origin: bef. 900; ME losen, OE -léosan; r. ME lesen, itself also reflecting OE -léosan; c. G verlieren, Goth fraliusan to lose. See loss] In particular, the bolded entry #7 "to give up". In other words, "loss of an item" is defined as "you gave up the item" or "you had the item taken by force." This means that, in the event that you "give up" the item (ie, remove it for another item), you immediately lose those spell slots. You missed the rules on spell retention? Or are you looking for a rule that says, 'you do not lose spell slots when your casting stat changes'? If so, find me the rule that says taking 5 points of fire damage does not cause the character to lose a spell slot, and then find me the rule that says humans do not gain wings when they say the word 'ipsy', and then find me the rule that says all gnomes are not transparent when under a blanket, and... The rules do say what can and cannot be done, but generally if there is no rule telling you to do something then you dont do it. But, by your logic, since there is no rule specifically telling you that you keep those slots, you do *not* keep them since the rules don't tell you to do so. Just because you asked for a rule first doesn't mean that I cannot turn around and ask you for a rule for your position as well. If you cannot find one either, then I have to ask why do you keep arguing this?
Scion of Coldshard 11-16-07, 05:44 PM	Bolding mine. And how, exactly, does that relate to the topic at hand? Are you trying to say that taking a hat off is an effect of the hat? Even if it somehow was, how does that relate to the loss of spells? You need something to connect the two! I will also define another word. 7. to give up; forfeit the possession of To give up and forfeit the possession of something would mean that it is no longer in your possession. Merely taking it off does not remove it from your possession. [QUOTE=Undrhil;14353137] But, by your logic, since there is no rule specifically telling you that you keep those slots I have already quoted the spell retention rules, would you like to see them again? Here you go: Prepared Spell Retention Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind. The spell remains until cast, abandoned, or specific events happen that are not listed. The only logical assumption is that such specific events will tell us that the spells will be lost, there are several cases of this, because otherwise anything at all could cause a spell slot to be lost as pretty much everything else is an 'other event'. Since you ignored the questions, I'll ask them again: Or are you looking for a rule that says, 'you do not lose spell slots when your casting stat changes'? If so, find me the rule that says taking 5 points of fire damage does not cause the character to lose a spell slot, and then find me the rule that says humans do not gain wings when they say the word 'ipsy', and then find me the rule that says all gnomes are not transparent when under a blanket, and...
Undrhil 11-16-07, 07:04 PM	And how, exactly, does that relate to the topic at hand? Are you trying to say that taking a hat off is an effect of the hat? Even if it somehow was, how does that relate to the loss of spells? You need something to connect the two! I'm sorry. You're correct. I left something out. When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. Therefore, when you lose the item (willingly or otherwise relinquish its use) you lose the effects of that item, yes? If so, then the effects of the headband of intellect is an increase in the INT ability score. Removing the headband of intellect causes you to lose the effects of the headband of intellect, ie. a decrease (a change) in the INT ability score. So, the decrease in the INT ability score causes all attributes associated with that score to change accordingly. This means bonus spells and spell slots, in the case of the INT ability score. The spell remains until cast, abandoned, or specific events happen that are not listed. The only logical assumption is that such specific events will tell us that the spells will be lost, there are several cases of this, because otherwise anything at all could cause a spell slot to be lost as pretty much everything else is an 'other event'. Since you ignored the questions, I'll ask them again: These are invalid questions which have no relevence on the discussion at hand. I shall choose to ignore them as you have chosen to ignore all of the proof which points to you being wrong.
Bahumut 11-17-07, 02:49 AM	Your hp might not change by 20 first off. Next up, when your con changes the rules say your hp change.. one would assume that means current and max. If you wish to rule it the other way expect a lot less people to be playing barbarians all of a sudden.. so by that logic, i can use the +4 amulet of health as a healing item. same setup, level 10, with 16 base Con and a +4 amulet of health; say i have 100 max HP with the amulet on, and i get hit for 10 damage. i would be at 90 out of 100. then i remove the amulet, and my max HP drops to 80; so does my current HP, since it cant be more than my max without temporary HP. i then put the amulet back on...by your logic, when my max HP increases back up to 100, so does my current HP? that...just doesnt sound right to me. yes, a barbarian gets to add the bonus HP to his current total when he rages, but that comes directly from the text of the ability, and he loses them at the end of his rage. i have seen many a barbarian butcher the enemies, but drop dead from the HP loss when his rage ends. they call it Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome where i come from.
yrogerg 11-17-07, 02:50 AM	No one is arguing that point. Although they could, using an item like the pearl of power and saying that it allows you more spells per day than you have spell slots. Which is irrelevant. Once the ritual for the day is completed the character has those slots. The slots are already given to the character. What we need in order for slots to be lost is saying that something causes them to be lost. Saying that if the character was to prepare at the moment they would get less tells us nothing about what to do if the character is not preparing at the moment. ... And now you're talking in circles. The passage I originally quoted stated clearly when you modify the number of extra spell slots that a character has: immediately as the relevant ability score changes. You cannot, per the second passage I quoted, cast more spells than you have spell slots, per *the definition of spell slots*. You don't actually contest either of these statments. The second someone points out how these two portions of the rules interact, however, you jump back to your original (and incorrect) premise, that you only "check" the number of spell slots at the point of spell preparation. This is wrong. I've cited rules that clearly state otherwise, and you have continued to fail to cite any rules that even hint at your argument. *Spells* are granted at preparation points, but can be lost at any point. *Spell slots* are containers for spells, and exist continually, in a number determined based on class, abilty score, and level. They're never "granted" when spells are prepared, and the number of spell slots available is modified immediately when one of the aforementioned factors changes. It's not a difficult concept.
groveborn 11-17-07, 04:24 AM	so by that logic, i can use the +4 amulet of health as a healing item. same setup, level 10, with 16 base Con and a +4 amulet of health; say i have 100 max HP with the amulet on, and i get hit for 10 damage. i would be at 90 out of 100. then i remove the amulet, and my max HP drops to 80; so does my current HP, since it cant be more than my max without temporary HP. i then put the amulet back on...by your logic, when my max HP increases back up to 100, so does my current HP? that...just doesnt sound right to me. yes, a barbarian gets to add the bonus HP to his current total when he rages, but that comes directly from the text of the ability, and he loses them at the end of his rage. i have seen many a barbarian butcher the enemies, but drop dead from the HP loss when his rage ends. they call it Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome where i come from. Either you're doing a poor job of explaining your position, or I'm failing to understand it. When you gain hit points from a constitution boost, they're instantly there. When you lose that constitution boost, they disapear. You don't have to rest to receive them. This doesn't heal you, it just make you more able to take damage. Lets say, out on a limb and completely out of the bounds of such a thing, that you had exactly 0 hit points after a battle. Somebody was kind enough to place a +100 amulet of health (again, not possible), then you'd have 50 hp, assuming level 1. If you lost an additional 10 hit points, you'd still have 40. If that amulet was removed, you'd die. Back to Scion. You're wrong.
yrogerg 11-17-07, 09:07 AM	What Groveborn said. When Con is boosted, it creates bonus hit points that increase both current and maximum hit points. You don't need to heal to get these, otherwise, a Barbarian would gain little benefit from raging multiple times/day. The reason for Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome is that when rage ends, the Con is modified back down, and both current and maximum hit points are also modified down by 1-4 HP/level, even if that drops the Barbarain below 0 or below -10 HP. Fact is, this is directly analogous to how the Headband is supposed to work. Have headband on? Get extra spell slots, that you can prepare extra spells in. Take headband off after preparing spells? Instantly lose the spells along with the slots the spells were prepared in. Take "damage", i.e, cast spells, or lose memorized spells in the above fashion and then replace the headband? You still have bonus spell slots, but now they're empty.
Merestil Haye 11-17-07, 10:55 AM	Fact is, this is directly analogous to how the Headband is supposed to work. Have headband on? Get extra spell slots, that you can prepare extra spells in. Take headband off after preparing spells? Instantly lose the spells along with the slots the spells were prepared in.Nowhere have you shown that loss of Int results in losing the prepared spells. That you lose the ability to cast all the spells you have prepared I quite agree with. Your capacity goes down by some number. That you lose the prepared spell itself? No, you do not. You retain that spell until something happens that causes you to lose it. Those somethings are defined in the rules Scion has cited, and Intelligence reduction is not one of them. This method has the happy consequence of treating all methods of lowering Intelligence as a problem, but not an insurmountable one. Let me ask you a question. If your wizard PC failed a save vs Feeblemind and then had the effect broken, would you expect to have the spells you had prepared available? According to your argument, you have no prepared spells left. Not one.
groveborn 11-17-07, 11:09 AM	Nowhere have you shown that loss of Int results in losing the prepared spells. That you lose the ability to cast all the spells you have prepared I quite agree with. Your capacity goes down by some number. That you lose the prepared spell itself? No, you do not. You retain that spell until something happens that causes you to lose it. Those somethings are defined in the rules Scion has cited, and Intelligence reduction is not one of them. This method has the happy consequence of treating all methods of lowering Intelligence as a problem, but not an insurmountable one. Let me ask you a question. If your wizard PC failed a save vs Feeblemind and then had the effect broken, would you expect to have the spells you had prepared available? According to your argument, you have no prepared spells left. Not one. If the spells slots aren't there anymore, and you've conceded that point, then how would one retain the spells? Let's say you have fourteen buckets of water, all filled. 13 disapear due to them ceasing to exist. Where's the water? Without a bucket, the water just drops to the surface, and flows away. I'm not sure if any particular rules actually state this explicitly, but they don't have to. No spell slot, no spell. Spells are stored in spell slots. If you have no slot to fill, you don't fill them. If you have filled a slot that disappears, you lose that spell. It's a balancing factor for every spellcaster.
Merestil Haye 11-17-07, 12:08 PM	If the spells slots aren't there anymore, and you've conceded that point, then how would one retain the spells? Let's say you have fourteen buckets of water, all filled. 13 disapear due to them ceasing to exist. Where's the water? Without a bucket, the water just drops to the surface, and flows away.The spell slots are there. The number of spells you can prepare is set at the time you first prepare. But the number of spells you can cast in a day isn't fixed. They vary in exactly the same way that the Cleric's capacity to Turn Undead varies - but capped by the earlier preparation exercise. The preparation work is done. Once it is done, the spells remain almost cast until something actively removes them from that status - which casting ability reduction does not do. You contend that it does. Please show where. I'm not sure if any particular rules actually state this explicitly, but they don't have to. No spell slot, no spell. Spells are stored in spell slots. If you have no slot to fill, you don't fill them. If you have filled a slot that disappears, you lose that spell. It's a balancing factor for every spellcaster.Please answer the question in the post you quoted then. Do you make a Feebleminded wizard lose all his uncast prepared spells when the Feeblemind is broken? Yes or no?
yrogerg 11-17-07, 01:11 PM	If the spells slots aren't there anymore, and you've conceded that point, then how would one retain the spells? Let's say you have fourteen buckets of water, all filled. 13 disapear due to them ceasing to exist. Where's the water? Without a bucket, the water just drops to the surface, and flows away. And to follow this analogy, if you later spirit the buckets back into existence, you're still going to have to refill them, becuase the water that used to be in them just got wasted. I would say, yes, Feeblemind wipes prepared spells away. It's a powerful spell that's at the same spell level as Hold Monster, Dominate Person, Baleful Polymorph, and Magic Jar. It *should* be this powerful. And let's be honest; it's a rare circumstance where you'd be trying to remove it in the middle of combat, anyway.
yrogerg 11-17-07, 01:30 PM	The spell slots are there. The number of spells you can prepare is set at the time you first prepare. No it's not. The number of spells you can prepare -and the number of spells you can have prepared at any given moment- is determined at the point your Int score changes. We've already established that the PHB says this. Gain int, and you can take 15 minutes to fill your extra (empty) spell slots. Lose int, and lose the spell slots. It's pretty simple. The preparation work is done. Once it is done, the spells remain almost cast until something actively removes them from that status - which casting ability reduction does not do. You contend that it does. Please show where. It's been established that a plain reading of the text on spell slots, quoted above, makes it clear that you can't keep prepared spells when you lose spell slots, as spell slots are, by definition, the number of spells you can cast in a day. The relevant rules text for this has already been quoted, extensively.
Undrhil 11-17-07, 01:52 PM	Then you should have no problem quoting the rule(s) that it is trying to clarify. Prepared Spell Retention Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind. Bolding mine. Now, couple this with the quote from the FAQ: If you lose the item, you immediately lose the bonus spell slots the item gave you, starting with any uncast spells you have of the appropriate levels. There you go. Ruling (from the SRD) and clarification (from the FAQ.) Now, to be safe, I will also define another word. lose /luz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[looz] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, lost, los·ing. –verb (used with object) 1. to come to be without (something in one's possession or care), through accident, theft, etc., so that there is little or no prospect of recovery: I'm sure I've merely misplaced my hat, not lost it. 2. to fail inadvertently to retain (something) in such a way that it cannot be immediately recovered: I just lost a dime under this sofa. 3. to suffer the deprivation of: to lose one's job; to lose one's life. 4. to be bereaved of by death: to lose a sister. 5. to fail to keep, preserve, or maintain: to lose one's balance; to lose one's figure. 6. (of a clock or watch) to run slower by: The watch loses three minutes a day. 7. to give up; forfeit the possession of: to lose a fortune at the gaming table. 8. to get rid of: to lose one's fear of the dark; to lose weight. 9. to bring to destruction or ruin (usually used passively): Ship and crew were lost. 10. to condemn to hell; damn. 11. to have slip from sight, hearing, attention, etc.: to lose him in the crowd. 12. to stray from or become ignorant of (one's way, directions, etc.): to lose one's bearings. 13. to leave far behind in a pursuit, race, etc.; outstrip: She managed to lose the other runners on the final lap of the race. 14. to use to no purpose; waste: to lose time in waiting. 15. to fail to have, get, catch, etc.; miss: to lose a bargain. 16. to fail to win (a prize, stake, etc.): to lose a bet. 17. to be defeated in (a game, lawsuit, battle, etc.): He has lost very few cases in his career as a lawyer. 18. to cause the loss of: The delay lost the battle for them. 19. to let (oneself) go astray, miss the way, etc.: We lost ourselves in the woods. 20. to allow (oneself) to become absorbed or engrossed in something and oblivious to all else: I had lost myself in thought. 21. (of a physician) to fail to preserve the life of (a patient). 22. (of a woman) to fail to be delivered of (a live baby) because of miscarriage, complications in childbirth, etc. –verb (used without object) 23. to suffer loss: to lose on a contract. 24. to suffer defeat or fail to win, as in a contest, race, or game: We played well, but we lost. 25. to depreciate in effectiveness or in some other essential quality: a classic that loses in translation. 26. (of a clock, watch, etc.) to run slow. —Verb phrase27. lose out, to suffer defeat or loss; fail to obtain something desired: He got through the preliminaries, but lost out in the finals. —Idiom28. lose face. face (def. 48). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Origin: bef. 900; ME losen, OE -léosan; r. ME lesen, itself also reflecting OE -léosan; c. G verlieren, Goth fraliusan to lose. See loss] In particular, the bolded entry #7 "to give up". In other words, "loss of an item" is defined as "you gave up the item" or "you had the item taken by force." Now, for the next bit. When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. Therefore, when you lose the item (willingly or otherwise relinquish its use) you lose the effects of that item, yes? If so, then the effects of the headband of intellect is an increase in the INT ability score. Removing the headband of intellect causes you to lose the effects of the headband of intellect, ie. a decrease (a change) in the INT ability score. So, the decrease in the INT ability score causes all attributes associated with that score to change accordingly. This means bonus spells and spell slots, in the case of the INT ability score. This should clear up the discussion.
Merestil Haye 11-17-07, 02:27 PM	No it's not. The number of spells you can prepare -and the number of spells you can have prepared at any given moment- is determined at the point your Int score changes. We've already established that the PHB says this. Gain int, and you can take 15 minutes to fill your extra (empty) spell slots. Lose int, and lose the spell slots. It's pretty simple.Most of the people arguing that spell slots are lost flatly disagree that raising Int again regains the spell slots. I had several people argue with me that this makes preparing casters casters too flexible (last year sometime iirc). "Damn, I didn't expect to need that spell. Never mind, if I take the headband off it will wipe [this unneeded spell] from my mind. Then I put it back on and Hey Presto! - Empty slot to fill with the spell we need." Hence you will find that most people deny that you get the slot back until you next prepare. What I am asking them (you having answered) is whether they cripple spellcasters who have, for any reason (Feeblemind being the most dramatic) had their casting ability reduced and restored. The same applies to any caster. It's been established that a plain reading of the text on spell slots, quoted above, makes it clear that you can't keep prepared spells when you lose spell slots, as spell slots are, by definition, the number of spells you can cast in a day. The relevant rules text for this has already been quoted, extensively.To be honest, I'm quite prepared to agree with your approach. Now we just have to find ways to deal with the increase in power.
yrogerg 11-17-07, 02:56 PM	Most of the people arguing that spell slots are lost flatly disagree that raising Int again regains the spell slots. I had several people argue with me that this makes preparing casters casters too flexible (last year sometime iirc). "Damn, I didn't expect to need that spell. Never mind, if I take the headband off it will wipe [this unneeded spell] from my mind. Then I put it back on and Hey Presto! - Empty slot to fill with the spell we need." Hence you will find that most people deny that you get the slot back until you next prepare. What I am asking them (you having answered) is whether they cripple spellcasters who have, for any reason (Feeblemind being the most dramatic) had their casting ability reduced and restored. The same applies to any caster. To be honest, I'm quite prepared to agree with your approach. Now we just have to find ways to deal with the increase in power. Actually, that's a fair catch- I had missed the power issue. My thought, though, is that spells lost due to vanishing spell slots still fall under the 'effects that wipe away spells' clause that I don't actually care to look up right now, and as such, the spellcaster would have to wait an additional 8 hours to re-prepare for those slots, per the "you can't fill slots that you casted from in the past 8 hours" clause in spell preparation. Note: I'm not trying to cite rules here, so much as simply state that that would be a reasonable solution, and I think it's one that the rules vaguely support.
Scion of Coldshard 11-17-07, 03:25 PM	I'm sorry. You're correct. I left something out. You are leaving out the important part.. where is your quote telling someone to lose slots? Yes, we know things can change when a stat changes.. but all of those changes are listed. You need something to say it changes in order for the general 'change things that change' to be useful. Therefore, when you lose the item (willingly or otherwise relinquish its use) you lose the effects of that item, yes? When you lose the item it is no longer in your possession. When you take an item off you have not lost the item. These are invalid questions which have no relevence on the discussion at hand. They are perfectly valid questions if you are asking, 'where is the rule that states you keep the spells' or something similar. That is the same as asking the questions I posed. If you feel your question is valid then so are my questions. so by that logic, i can use the +4 amulet of health as a healing item. Why do you say, 'by that logic' and then not use the logic I presented? Con says that when it changes your hp change. Thus, when your con changes your hp change. It also says that no matter your con penalty you cannot go to less than 1 hp/hd. This means that even though your con changes it may not go down by the full amount it would have if the change hadnt dropped one or more of your hd to giving 0 or less which brings the cutoff rule into play. And now you're talking in circles. No, it is simply that you are failing to understand a basic point. The spell slots have already been gained and the rules say they only go away under specific conditions. A change to the stat is not listed as one of those conditions. Therefore there is no change to spell slots that are currently on the character. You are attempting to make a bridge between two things with no connection in between. You havent shown where the rules say that they are connected. As such, they are not. You need an actual rule to put them together. Nowhere have you shown that loss of Int results in losing the prepared spells. And that is the problem! They seem to be assuming that it is true because they assume it is true.. ;/ Also, thanks for the support ;)
Scion of Coldshard 11-17-07, 03:37 PM	Bolding mine. You have gone through this before. I am curiuos as to how you think this actually proves your point. The first bit shows that it is possible for some things to remove spells, no one disagrees with this. The second part is the FAQ making up a rule without rules support. Even if we were to say that this is fine it still doesnt say taking the item off removes the bonus, only losing the item. Your third bit is showing that you dont know what 'forfeit the possession of' means. Or it is just a large block of text put into your post for no reason. The fourth bit just tells us that when an ability score changes that we change the things that the ability score tells us to change. No one has shown that slots currently given to the character are part of this change. So, you have no proof of change for spell slots currently in memory of the character.. We know that some things 'can' change them but nothing here shows that the stat change is one of them. The rules simply dont say that the spells are lost when the ability score changes, at least not as far as anyone here has found.
yrogerg 11-17-07, 04:18 PM	No, it is simply that you are failing to understand a basic point. The spell slots have already been gained and the rules say they only go away under specific conditions. A change to the stat is not listed as one of those conditions. Therefore there is no change to spell slots that are currently on the character. You are attempting to make a bridge between two things with no connection in between. You havent shown where the rules say that they are connected. As such, they are not. You need an actual rule to put them together Coldshard, you are saying that spell slots are gained when spells are prepared. This is flat-out wrong. We have been over and over the fact that there is an unequivocal line in the PHB that says that spell slots are gained *when* the associated ability score changes. SPELLS, not spell slots, are gained when spells are prepared. Spells fill spell slots. Spell slots tell you how many spells you can cast in a day. Spells and spell slots are different things, and you seem to be constantly confusing the two. *Spells* refresh every day. Spell slots do not, and are constant so long as the proper ability score, level, and class remain the same. However, if you ever find yourself in a situation where you have more spells prepared than spell slots, you adjust down, because spell slots, again, by definition, define how many spells you can cast. This "you check spell slots when you prepare spells" nonsense is just that: nonsense. By this logic, if my character's Con changes, his hit points don't until someone tries to attack or heal him.
Scion of Coldshard 11-17-07, 05:26 PM	Coldshard, you are saying that spell slots are gained when spells are prepared. This is flat-out wrong. Do you have some rules support for this? I have given mine, which says explicitly that I am correct.. are you still going off of rules which you claim exist but no one can find? Lets take a look at negative levels again: In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level. This single text block alone proves you incorrect. We have been over and over the fact that there is an unequivocal line in the PHB that says that spell slots are gained *when* the associated ability score changes. Is this another of those rules that cannot actually be shown? Or is it another one that you claim says one thing but does not actually say what you are saying? This "you check spell slots when you prepare spells" nonsense is just that: nonsense. By this logic, if my character's Con changes, his hit points don't until someone tries to attack or heal him. Again someone says, 'by this logic' and then fails to use the logic I have put forth. Why do people keep on trying to put up their strawmen? Con says that hp changes when con changes. There have not been any rules put up saying that spells dissappear from memory when the stat changes. Hopefully you can see the difference there. As it stands we know when the slots are checked and filled up, I have shown this repeatidly, but we do not have anything that says that what is currently prepared changes because of a change to the stat. Without that the argument opposing what I have put forward is missing the linking parameter on which it stands.. which means that it has nothing to stand on yet. Even the FAQ does not say that the spells go away when the stat decreases.
Undrhil 11-18-07, 12:31 AM	OK, let me ask this: What happens when a character puts the headband of intellect on? Please quote exact rules.
Scion of Coldshard 11-18-07, 01:36 AM	OK, let me ask this: What happens when a character puts the headband of intellect on? Please quote exact rules. The character gains an enhancement bonus to int. Headband of Intellect This device is a light cord with a small gem set so that it rests upon the forehead of the wearer. The headband adds to the wearer’s Intelligence score in the form of an enhancement bonus of +2, +4, or +6. This enhancement bonus does not earn the wearer extra skill points when a new level is attained; use the unenhanced Intelligence bonus to determine skill points. Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Wondrous Item, fox’s cunning; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6).
groveborn 11-18-07, 06:16 AM	Table 1-1, page 8 Player's Handbook. I've said it before. When you change your stats, you refer to it for new information. When you lose enough of the primary stat for a cast, that caster loses the bonus spells. They cannot be cast. Since the bonus spells are no longer present, one must assume that they are gone until rested, and in the case of those who prepare their spells, prepared. Rules are presented in the magic section regarding preparation. If you receive a new bonus spell that has not yet been prepared, to prepare in it, you must rest for at least 8 hours (you may consider yourself rested if you have not yet begun the straineous activities that prevent it). This, I'm sure, we can all agree on. This part in this paragraph. Now you lose those stats, whether it's due to damage to the stat, removal of an effect from a magic item, or a penalty. That new bonus slot(s) are now gone. Erased from the capabilities as shown on Table 1-1. If those spells per day are no longer available, then it is natural to assume, whether or not it is ruled, that the spells prepared are no longer prepared, as when you gain that new slot, that self same slot is empty. The old prepared spell is lost. The Table refered shows that the spells are no longer there. Check Bonus Spells per level, in reference to the various stats. You get fewer bonus spell slots for a 16 than for an 18. You cannot keep these spells. Big deal if you lose a few spells. Not that important. By the time you can lose enough to matter, you have scrolls, wands, and staves that do the job.
Scion of Coldshard 11-18-07, 03:13 PM	Table 1-1, page 8 Player's Handbook. I've said it before. Yes you have. And as I have said before the only time the rules tell us to look at that chart is when the character is getting their spells for the day. Without the rules telling us to reference it for some other reason then we simply dont. Much like we dont care how much fire resistance a character has unless they are actually being dealt fire damage. When you lose enough of the primary stat for a cast, that caster loses the bonus spells. No rules say this though. Or, at least, none say it that have been presented so far. Just because the spell slots that would be gained if a character was to prepare 'right now' have changed does not mean that those slots already gained are lost.
yrogerg 11-18-07, 03:40 PM	Yes you have. And as I have said before the only time the rules tell us to look at that chart is when the character is getting their spells for the day. Without the rules telling us to reference it for some other reason then we simply dont. Much like we dont care how much fire resistance a character has unless they are actually being dealt fire damage. We don't "care", but they still have the fire resistance. If something raises or lowers it, it's raised or lowered, even though we don't necessarily care at the moment. If something changes their fire resistance, it changes instantly, even if they're not currently exposed to fire. Just like a character's Hit points change when their Con changes, even if they're not getting healed or damaged at that exact moment. And just like the number of spells available changes instantly, whether or not he's memorizing or casting a spell at that exact moment. You're claiming the opposite with regard to that last one.
yrogerg 11-18-07, 03:47 PM	No rules say this though. Or, at least, none say it that have been presented so far. They don't need to say anything more explictly than they already had. Each Int score is tied to a certain number of bonus spell slots. If Int changes in *any* direction, the number of bonus spell slots increase or decrease instantly. Because spell slots DEFINE how many spells can be cast in a day, you can't cast more spells than you have spell slots for, ergo having fewer spell slots than prepapred spells means you lose those extra prepared spells.
Undrhil 11-18-07, 04:24 PM	The character gains an enhancement bonus to int. Please go on. Give the exact rules quotes that say that this character would then immediately be able to use those spell slots and bonus spells.
Scion of Coldshard 11-18-07, 07:27 PM	We don't "care", but they still have the fire resistance. Just like we dont 'care' that if they were to memorize right now the amount of slots that they would get has been reduced, it is still true, but until they are actually going through the process we dont care. And just like the number of spells available changes instantly, whether or not he's memorizing or casting a spell at that exact moment. No one has shown with rules that spells are dropped from memory when the stat changes. Until they do show that they I will indeed say it isnt true.. because until the rules say it is true then it isnt. They don't need to say anything more explictly than they already had. That is true, they dont. It is currently completely internally consistant for the spells to remain in memory when stat changes occur. However, if you want it to work the way you are saying then there would have to be a rule actually saying that.
Scion of Coldshard 11-18-07, 07:28 PM	Please go on. Give the exact rules quotes that say that this character would then immediately be able to use those spell slots and bonus spells. Immediately use spell slots? You must think you are talking with someone else or something.. I have maintained, based on the rules, that the only time those slots are checked for is when preparing. That means that there is no immediate change unless someone can find a rule stating that there is, which they apparently cannot.
groveborn 11-19-07, 03:48 AM	According to Skip Williams, as per an email I requested yesterday... Rules of the Game is about to handle this one. The short answer is: Use your current stat to determine bonus spells. If you have too few -- too bad unless the situation prevails when it's time for you to renew spells for the day. If you have too many, lose the difference immediately. Mind you, that answer has yet to be vetted by WotC, but I doubt they'll fool with it. On Nov 18, 2007, at 4:07 AM, Groveborn wrote: > I'm sure you're a very busy person, and would prefer not to have simple questions asked, but the Forums at Wizards have a very long winded, and unresolved situation. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=951619 currently has 5 pages of arguing about the effect of changing the primary casting statistic for a caster. So the question put forth is thus: If a score is reduced in such a way as to affect the number of bonus spells, what happens to the spells? > > The general opinion is that they disappear, and cannot be regained until the next resting period. Only one currently argues furtively against this position, wasting way too much time. > > If you'd be so kind to help, it would be much appreciated. > > Thank you, > > Groveborn > > Now tell me this isn't enough, game designer says so.
risner 11-19-07, 08:16 AM	Now tell me this isn't enough, game designer says so. I think I liked it better before when I was happy and content with them coming back when you put the hat back on your head. I will accept it and go forward. It certainly makes more sense (it is logical) than SoC's "only check in the morning" theory which didn't match any of the rest of the game's mechanics.
Scion of Coldshard 11-19-07, 10:36 AM	According to Skip Williams, as per an email I requested yesterday... Now tell me this isn't enough, game designer says so. Who cares what the game designer says? If he isnt using the rules in the game then the 'rules of the game' article should reflect that. In that email he does at least say that wotc has not yet approved that response yet, but even if they do approve it unless he finds this mysterious hidden rule that no one else can it still wont have a leg to stand on. I will accept it and go forward. It certainly makes more sense (it is logical) than SoC's "only check in the morning" theory which didn't match any of the rest of the game's mechanics. Note, yet again, that this isnt what I said. I have said nothing about the morning. It also matches the other mechanics of the game perfectly well. No where else do you go back and redo things you have already done because the stat has changed. If you succeeded in a knowledge check last round and this round your int has been damaged that knowledge check does not suddenly get worse. If you were missed last round because of your dex bonus and take dex damage this round you do not suddenly take damage from last round. Unless a rule is shown otherwise the spells prepared works the same way. By the time the stat changes later the prep process has already been done. Going back and changing it is currently doing some time traveling like the above examples.
Bahumut 11-19-07, 12:27 PM	Who cares what the game designer says? If he isnt using the rules in the game then the 'rules of the game' article should reflect that. In that email he does at least say that wotc has not yet approved that response yet, but even if they do approve it unless he finds this mysterious hidden rule that no one else can it still wont have a leg to stand on. "i dont care what the guys who made the game say, i know this game better than them!" that's sig-worthy, right there. at this point, i concede to a higher authority. if skip williams tells me that barbarians can shoot lightning bolts out of their arse (:cookie: for the reference), i'll only ask how many times a day, and how much damage. it might sound dumb, but these are the mucky mucks that are deciding the fate of 4E, so im gonna take their word on what they say the INTENT of the rules are.
Scion of Coldshard 11-19-07, 02:38 PM	"i dont care what the guys who made the game say, i know this game better than them!" that's sig-worthy, right there. That isnt what I said. I said that when they claim something is against the rules why should we believe them over the rules? If they wish to have the game actually work the way they are saying they are the ones who actually have the power to make it work that way. Plus, while they are making the game it could be that they are remembering bits that were in the game during development but never actually made it into the game. As such, they can easily be remembering suggestions that they made or houserules they were using, but not actually know what the real rules situation is. Why should their voice count for more than the rules themselves? If skip was to say that fireball is a 4th level spell with no cap does that mean that suddenly it is true? at this point, i concede to a higher authority. if skip williams tells me that barbarians can shoot lightning bolts out of their arse (:cookie: for the reference), i'll only ask how many times a day, and how much damage. Apparently you do think it is true. So, at whim, any of the designers can say anything they like and suddenly it is part of the rules? What if their are conflicts from those on high? What about custserv? Do they also have this power? it might sound dumb, but these are the mucky mucks that are deciding the fate of 4E, so im gonna take their word on what they say the INTENT of the rules are. Who is arguing intent? I am arguing what the rules actually say. They might've 'intended' for 'barbarians to shoot lightning bolts out of their arse' but forgot to put it into the rules. As such, the rules do not allow for it to happen, no matter what the 'intent' was. Assuming that the intent was to have the spells go away then why isnt it in the rules? Why arent all of the rules we would need to know in order to have it work reproduceably across multiple dm's there? Are we actually supposed to assume that it was intended for the spells to go away but whole swaths of text saying when and how was left out and that it hasnt been put into errata yet??? That seems like a pretty big pill to swallow.
groveborn 11-19-07, 03:35 PM	You just don't get it do you Scion? Skip Williams was telling us what the rules said, not what they intended to say. He just responded with plain speech. The same rules we've been throwing at you, and that you've ignored. If you want it another way, consider the SRD the law, and people like Skip Williams, and Customer Service to be judges. We're the lawyers that argue a case. The judge has spoken. Table 1-1, page 8. Read it. That's all there is to end your opposition. No more. It clearly tells us what happens. You keep quoting flavor. Chicken doesn't bring home the spells baby.
risner 11-19-07, 04:39 PM	That isnt what I said. I said that when they claim something is against the rules why should we believe them over the rules? That is exactly what you said plus you haven't shown even a tiny bit of evidence that the rules read the way you alleged and their way of reading the rules as written makes a heck of a lot more sense than your way. In short, you refuse to accept the rules as written. It would be best if you kept your minority opinion and let the rest of the world read the rules as written without convoluted required to come up with your way of thinking?
Scion of Coldshard 11-19-07, 05:33 PM	You just don't get it do you Scion? Skip Williams was telling us what the rules said, not what they intended to say. I get it just fine. The rules dont say it but people will claim that they do even without proof of it and when forced into a corner they will try to appeal to a higher authority rather than actually provide evidence. If he is telling us what the rules say then there should be rules to back him up. Since he provided no references and no one here has provided references to prove the point then it is just his own houserule. If you want it another way, consider the SRD the law, and people like Skip Williams, and Customer Service to be judges. We're the lawyers that argue a case. The judge has spoken. Judges will refer to the law and use it. Skip and custserv have both contradicted each other, themselves, and the rules often enough to not be trusted as a source directly. Either what they say can be backed up by the rules or it cant, if it cant then it has no bearing on a discussion of the RAW. Table 1-1, page 8. Read it. I have read it, and it does not support your position. Maybe you have a magical copy of the book with different rules in it, so perhaps you could quote the one you are refering to for the table. The table simply tells how many bonus spells a certain casting stat will give. Other rules dictate its use. You apparently want it to be the magical solution to your position but since by itself it does nothing it simply cannot be. Where are the rules dictating its use? I have already provided some, you need to provide others that support your position. You keep quoting flavor. And when I've asked for proof of something being flavor none is given. The SRD doesnt have a lot of flavor text and the particular bit of text in question is the only text under a bolded header. The text from the actual book has more flavor text to it but the main parts are still there. Also, if 'certain other events..' is flavor, and therefore mutable without changing the system, then stat changes are again denied the ability to change prepared spells as now there are no other events to wipe away slots other than casting or abandoning.
Scion of Coldshard 11-19-07, 05:41 PM	That is exactly what you said plus you haven't shown even a tiny bit of evidence that the rules read the way you alleged and their way of reading the rules as written makes a heck of a lot more sense than your way. My quote is exactly what I said, yes. The other quote was not. I have shown evidence through several rules while you have, apparently, none. Also, the method I have put forward makes perfect sense.. just like rolling a check gives a specific result until nullified elsewhere spells are kept until something makes them go away. We know what makes them go away, the things that do tell us so. Noone here has found a rule that says changing the stat makes the spells go away. It makes sense that once they are placed into memory they do not go away easily. This is much the same as skill points, feats, checks, and various types of training. All of these things stick through stat changes. A feat may become unusable because a stat is lowered beyond its threshold, much like a spell, but it is still there. It does not suddenly go away, in fact it can still be used as a prereq for other feats. Whenever spell slots are gained by the character they are set, because that is what the rules say. They can be gotten rid of through a few means: casting, abandonment, and a few other specific circumstances. We know what these other circumstances are because they tell us so, if we were left to guess then anything and everything could cause them to go away, how would we ever know for sure? Without a rule telling us that the spells go away when the stat changes then they simply do not. Since no one can find such a rule then a stat change does not cause spells to fall out of memory. Since the way I have shown works in the rules and is very simple and is logical within the system and requires no extra rules it certainly seems best to me. To do it otherwise requires a pile of houserules to be created and is a big hassle. Why go through the hassle when simply following the rules is so easy?
groveborn 11-19-07, 05:55 PM	Summery of the current argument thus far: Position 1: When preparing spells, check for bonus spells by looking at Table 1-1, and preparer normally. In the event that you lose bonus spells, you retain any spell you've managed to prepare in those alloted slots as the game does not check for bonuses at any time other than preparation. This is championed by Scion. Position 2: When preparing spells, check for bonus spells by looking at Table 1-1, and prepare normally. If the primary casting attribute changes negatively, check again Table 1-1 to see how many bonus spells you've lost, and remove that many spells from those bonus slots. It is best to keep track of which spells are prepared in these slots as to prevent the game grinding to a halt. This is championed by EVERYONE who is not Scion. Including Skip Williams, who is in fact one of the original writers of 3.5. Do I exaggerate? Yes, a bit, but nonetheless, here it is. Let's see if we can clarify the difficulty. I'm starting to think Scion is under the mistaken impression that people are telling him to lose ALL of the spells prepared in the event a caster loses his entire primary casting attribute. This is not the case, of course. That caster would lose only the BONUS spells granted by a high score. Those same bonus spells would disapear altogether, and not be allowed to be retained, even if the attribute was restored. The favored argument is that Feeblemind takes the attributes down to 1. Thus a caster would be unable to utilize ANY spell during this time, but when the spell is removed the caster would then be able regain the use of his spells. The only spells lost are those prepared in bonus slots. The rest are still there. I hope this finally ends this ridiculous argument. There are no rules, after all, that support checking the bonuses only at preparation. This is the base upon which Scion's arguments are made, and are most definitely not present. The other argument, that one retains spells prepared until used, given up, or removed by other unnamed effects doesn't pertain to this argument, and never had. I think nobody will argue that one loses prepared spells in the non-bonus slots without some serious intervention, as they do not depend on the primary casting attribute, but rather on class level. Class levels only change negatively with level loss, which does explicitly state that the caster will lose prepared spells. So, can we all just get along now?
Scion of Coldshard 11-19-07, 06:12 PM	Do I exaggerate? Yes, a bit, but nonetheless, here it is. Quite a bit exaggerating, especially since you are still refusing to show rules to actually support your case. And, once again, the table does not tell you to immediately remove spells. In fact, without other rules we dont know what to do with it at all. We have a rule that says when to use it at one time, but it does not support your position. So, also once again, provide your rule source that tells you to immediately change prepared spells. Without that you have no basis for saying that they go away.
groveborn 11-19-07, 06:13 PM	Find me the rules that state you must breath every round. The Abilities Prev The Basics Next -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Abilities Strength (Str) Dexterity (Dex) Constitution (Con) Intelligence (Int) Wisdom (Wis) Charisma (Cha) rule Each ability partially describes your character and affects some of his or her actions. Strength (Str) rule Strength measures your character's muscle and physical power. This ability is especially important for fighters, barbarians, paladins, rangers, and monks because it helps them prevail in combat. Strength also limits the amount of equipment your character can carry. You apply your character's Strength modifier to: Melee attack rolls. Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon (including a sling). (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only one-half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive one and a half times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.) Climb, Jump, and Swim checks. These are the skills that have Strength as their key ability. Strength checks (for breaking down doors and the like). Dexterity (Dex) rule Dexterity measures hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance. This ability is the most important one for rogues, but it's also high on the list for characters who typically wear light or medium armor (rangers and barbarians) or no armor at all (monks, wizards, and sorcerers), and for anyone who wants to be a skilled archer. You apply your character's Dexterity modifier to: Ranged attack rolls, including those for attacks made with bows, crossbows, throwing axes, and other ranged weapons. Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack. Reflex saving throws, for avoiding fireballs and other attacks that you can escape by moving quickly. Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and Use Rope checks. These are the skills that have Dexterity as their key ability. Constitution (Con) rule Constitution represents your character's health and stamina. A Constitution bonus increases a character's hit points, so the ability is important for all classes. You apply your character's Constitution modifier to: Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1-that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level). Fortitude saving throws, for resisting poison and similar threats. Concentration checks. Concentration is a skill, important to spellcasters, that has Constitution as its key ability. If a character's Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character's hit points also increase or decrease accordingly. Intelligence (Int) rule Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects how many spells they can cast, how hard their spells are to resist, and how powerful their spells can be. It's also important for any character who wants to have a wide assortment of skills. You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to: The number of languages your character knows at the start of the game. The number of skill points gained each level. (But your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.) Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft checks. These are the skills that have Intelligence as their key ability. A wizard gains bonus spells based on her Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell's level. An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least 3. Wisdom (Wis) rule Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one's ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one's surroundings. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom. Every creature has a Wisdom score. You apply your character's Wisdom modifier to: Will saving throws (for negating the effect of charm person and other spells). Heal, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks. These are the skills that have Wisdom as their key ability. Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers get bonus spells based on their Wisdom scores. The minimum Wisdom score needed to cast a cleric, druid, paladin, or ranger spell is 10 + the spell's level. Charisma (Cha) rule Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score. You apply your character's Charisma modifier to: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks. These are the skills that have Charisma as their key ability. Checks that represent attempts to influence others. Turning checks for clerics and paladins attempting to turn zombies, vampires, and other undead. Sorcerers and bards get bonus spells based on their Charisma scores. The minimum Charisma score needed to cast a sorcerer or bard spell is 10 + the spell's level. When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence. In bold. When an ability score changes, all (not some) attributes associated with that score change accordingly. That is pretty clear in my language (english). I don't know what language you speak, but the word "when" is pretty clear. At the time. There is no room for arguing this point, and there never was.
Scion of Coldshard 11-19-07, 06:27 PM	There are rules for how long a character can hold their breath. If there werent then they could hold their breath for an arbitrary length of time. Also, note that spells currently in memory isnt dependent on the casting stat unless something says it is. So, while all attributes that go off of a stat change spells currently in memory arent a part of that list without a rule saying that they are. That is the problem. People are making the assumption that they are without any proof that they are. The only time we know with certainty that the chart is checked for bonus spells is during the preperation time, when the caster gets their slots. We dont know of any other times and without those there is no reason to reference the table other than when getting spell slots for the day.
yrogerg 11-19-07, 09:31 PM	I think I'm done with this thread at this point. It seems pretty obvious that Coldshard isn't interested in honest argument. I've seen the following exchange play out multiple times in this thread: Coldshard: It never says *when* you check your spell slots, except at spell preparation. Someone: Actually, it says right here that you change all attributes when the relevant ability score changes. Coldshard: Well, whatever, all that changes is the number of spells you would have prepared at the start of the day. But those are already prepared. Someone: Actually, it says right here that spell slots== the number of spells you can cast in a day. Logic and the english language suggest that you can't cast more spells than you have spell slots for, by this definition. Coldshard: Well, it never says *when* you check your spell slots, except at spell preparation. Etc. He's moving the goalposts, people. He's maintaining his argument of a lack of evidence by doggedly ignoring the evidence that's presented to him, and simultaneously ignoring any calls to present evidence of his own to support his position. It's not actually worth continuing this argument. I'm reasonably certain that any newb DM who slogs through this entire thread can divine the reasonable answer from this thread, despite Coldshard's obfuscation. As such, I feel that my duty in this thread is discharged, and I feel no particular need to continue in this thread. Let's face it, Coldshard's not going to let himself be swayed. If that's your goal in this thread, it's probably not worth the effort. And Coldshard: lest you take my quitting as a sign that your argument is somehow "winning", take a look at my sig. Third quote down.
Scion of Coldshard 11-19-07, 09:43 PM	I think I'm done with this thread at this point. It seems pretty obvious that Coldshard isn't interested in honest argument. And by 'honest argument' you mean 'roll over and play dead when people speak' rather than 'making a logical conclusion based on the evidence'? I am interested in actual proof of your point, but it seems you are not really interested in proving it but instead just wish to have a bunch of yes men around who will agree to whatever you say... regardless of whether or not it actually stands on its own. As for your dialogue, I am simply asking for proof of peoples contentions. It seems that they are unable to give it and when they are called on that they resort to simply yelling or pointing to 'evidence' that isnt remotely close to their claims. Such as the repeated 'table 1-1' which tells us nothing about spells prepared going away or calling any text that they dont like flavor text or simply ignoring points such as the rules needing to state changes in state.. He's moving the goalposts, people. What goalposts are being moved? My stance from the beginning has been that the spells stay unless something says they go away. Just because I keep trying to get people back to that point does not mean that the goalposts are changing, nor do people making up strawmen mean that the goalposts are changing. Find a rule that says when the stat changes spells prepared go away, if you can. Without that the argument against what I have said is without a basis. I have shown where the rules talk about getting the spell slots, but people refuse to show where the rules state that changing the stat later removes those spell slots. Is it really that hard to find? If it is so hard to find could it be that the rule simply doesnt exist? The really sad part is that even in your little dialogue it is clear that the goalposts are not changing. Asking someone to find a rule stating where a change matters is the same as asking for a rule that says when the spells go away when a stat changes is the same as asking for proof that the spells go away when a stat changes... so on and so forth.. but saying 'things change when things change' isnt helpful, pointing to a table that does not itself say when it is used is not helpful, asking for a rule that states that spells never go away is not helpful, so on and so forth.. Let's face it, Coldshard's not going to let himself be swayed. Certainly not by people simply saying it is so without proof. Why should anyone be swayed by that? Just because you can yell louder than the next guy does not mean that you are more right. I have shown my point within the rules, but those saying I am wrong have not done the same courtesy. They assume that the spells are lost, without the rules saying so, and then build off of that assumption. But it is a house built on something that has not been proven. Without the simple rule stating that the spells go away they simply dont. How is that so hard to understand? There needs to be a rule making the change. No one has provided such a rule. As such, there is no change. If it was true certainly someone by now would have actually found the rule. It would seem that it is most certainly not true that spells go away with a stat but people choose to make it so anyway, houseruling their own games.. I wonder just how many houserules they need in order to get that done when it occurs, likely several.
risner 11-20-07, 12:30 AM	And by 'honest argument' you mean 'roll over and play dead when people speak' rather than 'making a logical conclusion based on the evidence'? Have you made a logical conclusion based on evidence? If so, I missed it with all the logical conclusions based on evidence from everyone else including the developers.
Bahumut 11-20-07, 03:30 AM	When an ability score changes, all (not some) attributes associated with that score change accordingly. That is pretty clear... so, you are saying that ALL of the associated attributes change immediately, right? and, bonus spell splots are an attribute of intelligence...thus, when Int changes, you immediately lose the bonus spell slots? yeah, im done here too. if someone cant concede to facts pointed out by someone who wrote the rules, then my babbling wont make a lick of difference. it's not about being right, or winning, it's about new people not getting misinformation about the game mechanics from posters they assume to be well versed in the rules.
groveborn 11-20-07, 03:48 AM	Here you go: Preparing Wizard Spells A wizard's level limits the number of spells she can prepare and cast. Her high Intelligence score might allow her to prepare a few extra spells. She can prepare the same spell more than once, but each preparation counts as one spell toward her daily limit. To prepare a spell the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell's level Then... Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. [b]These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level. Then refer to table 1-1 page 8 of the PHB to determine bonus spell slots... and then When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence. Reading these indicates that the following is true: A)A wizard cannot prepare more than their alloted spells per day, plus bonus spells as determined by class level, and high intelligence score. B)Spells reside in "slots", which are an ambiguous name for a retainer. C)When the intelligence score goes down, so too do the number of bonus spells allotted to the wizard. That wizard immediately loses those slots, and with them, the spells. Can this really be argued? Spells reside in slots. Slots are determined by a high attribute. If it changes, so do the slots. If the slot disappears, it no longer retains the spell. Since you can only fill slots at the beginning of a new day after rest, or after rest when deliberately empty slots are available. One CAN argue that you may prepare a spell in a new empty slot that you previously didn't have, after 8 hours of rest.
Scion of Coldshard 11-20-07, 05:23 PM	Have you made a logical conclusion based on evidence? If so, I missed it with all the logical conclusions based on evidence from everyone else including the developers. What evidence from everyone else? The strongest thing that has been presented against what I have said is that someone feels it shouldnt work that way in their own game. But since that has no bearing on the topic at hand.. I have made a logical conclusion based on the evidence. To describe it yet again... A character gets spells/slots after resting and going through their ritual. In the case of a wizard this is 8 hours of rest, at least 1 hour of which must be immediately before preparing spells. In a fairly benign place the wizard may then prepare. The amount of time varies between 15 minutes and 1 hour, depending on how many slots are being prepared. Spell slots are gained based on level and attribute along with any other modifiers such as any spells cast in the past 8 hours and negative levels. Some spell slots may be left empty to be filled later. Prepared spells stay in memory until they are cast, abandoned, or specific other events occur which wipe the spell away. That is essentially it. After that we need something telling us to wipe the spell away in order for it to be wiped away. The table 1-1 does not tell us to do this, it only tells us a potentially relevant value, we need further rules to tell us how and when to apply these numbers. The text around the table does not tell us anything about removing spells. It does talk about not gaining any spells if the character has a - for spells along with needing to get the stat back up again if it drops too low to cast certain spells. It does not mention losing spells at all, it simply says that the score will need to be raised in order to cast 'even the simplest of spells' because its example uses a 9 for int. The intelligence blurb in the stat section does not mention losing spells. It does say that it effects how many spells a character can cast, but that is not out of line with my example nor does it call for losing spells when the stat decreases. It does mention the min stat needed to cast spells specifically again, but still nothing about losing slots. The wizard entry says, 'To learn, prepare, or cast a spell the wizard must have an int of at least 10 + the spell level...' It does not say the stat is required to have the spells currently prepared. The wizard entry also talks about a 'daily allotment', which further implies that the number is fixed once gained. The concentration skill mentions that if you fail various checks you can lose the spell without it coming into effect. In the spell section under 'choosing a spell' it talks about only being able to cast a spell once unless it has been prepared multiple times or if the caster is a spontaneous caster. It does not talk about spells which have been lost due to a stat decrease, presumably because it either does so elsewhere or it simply does not occur. Arcane spell section.. This is a pretty good amount of text. It talks about when to get spells, how to prepare them, how many spells a character gets per day, and so forth. In the section talking about leaving slots open it says that while filling them a character cannot abandon a spell to replace it, nor can they fill a spot that has already been used for the day. There is no mention here about stat changes emptying or creating slots, no talk about what to do in such a case were it to happen. Nothing here gives us any special rules about what to do if a stat change is supposed to force the loss of a prepared spell, it doesnt talk about it directly or seemingly even indirectly. In short, nothing talks about losing spells when a stat changes at all. We have no rules for how to adjucate it if we assumed it did happen nor do we know how it interacts with rules that we know are there such as filling empty slots for the wizard. Where else can we look for such a rule? If we find it, is it going to have an explination for all of these little things that pop up along the way? Why isnt it mentioned in any of the numerous sections that could/should have it if it were true??
Scion of Coldshard 11-20-07, 05:25 PM	it's about new people not getting misinformation about the game mechanics from posters they assume to be well versed in the rules. Which is why I am here because it is clear that there is an assumption among at least some of the people who talk on the board that spells go away when a slot decreases.. but they dont actually have any RAW evidence to support their case!
Scion of Coldshard 11-20-07, 05:28 PM	When the intelligence score goes down, so too do the number of bonus spells allotted to the wizard. And still I am forced to ask, where is the rule that says that what you have been given already goes away? It is akin to you saying that because a characters dex decreased 'this round' they take extra damage 'last round'. You are trying to change something already over and done with without a rule telling you to do so.
risner 11-20-07, 05:57 PM	Which is why I am here because it is clear that there is an assumption among at least some of the people who talk on the board that spells go away when a slot decreases.. but they dont actually have any RAW evidence to support their case! On the contrary, they have the RAW to back up that they go away. You have posted not one single bit of RAW to back up your opinion other than "I know it is this way, never mind what is behind the screen." You are demanding RAW to back it up, when it already exists. Here are three examples that must be true for your way to be true: 1) I wake up and have 70 hit points including 30 from CON (16) at level 10. I get hit for 50 points of damage from a Fireball. I take -6 CON damage to be at CON 10. I lose no hit points because when I was awake this morning I had 16 CON. I am still alive because my CON doesn't change except this morning. 2) I wake up and have +9 CHA modifier. I have a total of 10 Turn Undead per day. I use 7 of my Turns. I then lose my +6 clock. Since my Turns are set at the morning, I still have 10 Turns and don't lose the 3 granted from the cloak. I can now do 3 more Turns today. In short, they all work the same way. If you lose hit points from CON, you lose spell slots. If you lose turn attemtps from lost CHA, you lose spell slots. This whole thread is a discussion of your house rule and doesn't have anything to do with RAW, RAI, or balance. All three support the "lose the spell slots" way of thinking including the RADWT (Rules as the Developer Wrote Them.)
Scion of Coldshard 11-20-07, 06:15 PM	On the contrary, they have the RAW to back up that they go away. Have they been putting the proof in another thread? Which section of the rules are they hiding from my book? Failing that, which part of what I laid out do you feel is not supported? Since it all comes directly from the rules it would seem pretty odd for it to not be supported from the rules.. I only paraphrased without changing any actual meanings. As for your examples 1) You are obviously missing the part where con actually tells you what to do. This is different from spells because in case 1 the rules tell us what to do while in the case of the spells people are assuming a rule that no one can actually find. That is a pretty big difference. 2) From what I have found in the rules with a brief search reveals only, 'A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.' as a condition on the number of times it is useable per day, nothing else. With spells we know that for preparing them they are stuck in memory until they are cast, abandoned, or a specific event happens. Also, spells have a specific time period during which they are gained for the day. Those two situations appear to be night and day from one another as well. Each of these has a specific rule talking about when they change. Spells have their own rules which have been put up repeatidly in this thread. To say that because hp and turn attempts change when the stat changes therefore spells do as well is ridiculous based on the rules for each being different. Again note that con tells us what to do for hp when it changes. Now look at int and note that it doesnt say something similar for spells and then look at spell preperation and note that it also does not say something similar for spells. What does this tell you? If it tells you that they are exactly the same... well.. hopefully it doesnt tell you that they are exactly the same.
Scion of Coldshard 11-20-07, 06:19 PM	Risner, it appears from your last post that you believe when int changes your total number of skill points changes immediately as well. After all, when one thing changes everything based on that changes.. and hp and turning attempts both change.. so total skill points must immediately change as well.
risner 11-20-07, 08:46 PM	Risner, it appears from your last post that you believe when int changes your total number of skill points changes immediately as well. After all, when one thing changes everything based on that changes.. and hp and turning attempts both change.. so total skill points must immediately change as well. No, I don't believe that, but you are welcome to filibuster some more. When the stat changes all things associated with the stat change (including skill mod based on the stat) and including bonus spell slots provided due to the higher stat. You clearly lose those if the stat changes based on the text in the bonus spell area (page 8) and the ability area. You refuse to accept it, fine, you can have any house rule you like, but it isn't RAW (at least not in the absolute sense you say.)
yrogerg 11-20-07, 08:59 PM	Risner, it appears from your last post that you believe when int changes your total number of skill points changes immediately as well. After all, when one thing changes everything based on that changes.. and hp and turning attempts both change.. so total skill points must immediately change as well. (I lied, I'm back -for now-, but I'm still not going to argue the above points any further) Congrats. You found the exception that proves the rule. Skill ranks are expressly non-retroactive. Future changes to Int don't result in you having had more skill points at earlier levels, as you can expressly only add skill ranks at level-up, based on your current (un-enhanced) Int modifier. This is explicitly spelled out on page 61 of the PHB. No such express language exists for spell slots, and we've all pointed to language that makes it plenty clear that the number of bonus spell slots are modified on a rolling basis, even if this causes spells to be lost. Note also that this means that the FAQ is incorrect when it states that a Polymorphed Human loses their Human bonus skill ranks.
Scion of Coldshard 11-20-07, 09:02 PM	No, I don't believe that If you dont believe it then you agree that not everything related to the character changes when a stat changes. From there it is possible to think that there might be other things in the ruleset which work similarly. For skill points we ask, 'when does a change in int matter?' and the answer is 'when leveling, with restrictions'. For spells we ask, 'when does a change in int matter?' and the only answer we have so far is 'when spells are gained for the day'. This last bit works without regard to any change in table 1-1 because table 1-1 itself doesnt do anything without another rule telling what to do with it. Much like we dont know that a change to int changes the knowledge skill bonus without a rule saying that the knowledge skills are based off of int and that the skills recognize the change immediately. When the stat changes all things associated with the stat change You have already acknowledged that this is not true for skill points. At the very least that opens the door for the same to be true for other things. and including bonus spell slots provided due to the higher stat. No rule presented thus far says that a stat change removes spells from memory. You clearly lose those if the stat changes based on the text in the bonus spell area (page 8) and the ability area. Why? I can say something similar for skill points if we only look at the following: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#intelligenceInt Intelligence (Int) Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects how many spells they can cast, how hard their spells are to resist, and how powerful their spells can be. It’s also important for any character who wants to have a wide assortment of skills. You apply your character’s Intelligence modifier to: The number of languages your character knows at the start of the game. The number of skill points gained each level. (But your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.) Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft checks. These are the skills that have Intelligence as their key ability. A wizard gains bonus spells based on her Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell’s level. An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least 3. This doesnt say explicitely that changes to int dont change your current amount of skill points. There can be more than one place to look for a rule after all. But in this case you are saying that the table tells us something. How does it do this? There is no text telling us what to do with the numbers. Somewhere there must be a rule telling us to do something with those numbers, the table alone is insufficient to claim anything about spells. You are trying to tell me that a table, which is devoid of any text describing its use, is telling you what to do. I am calling shenanigans. The table only gives information, how to interpret and use that information is given elsewhere in the ruleset. Without a rule saying that the spells are lost then they simply arent. Note that with the path I have put down using the rules there are no gaps, there are no disjointed paths, everything is easy and continuous, no rules are left out. With the way you are proposing there are so many rules left out of the system it is staggering. There arent even references in parts of the ruleset which would deal directly with the issue! I've already gone through section by section briefly along with laying down a logical path that both works in the rules and is simple.. but you wont comment on that, or even try to show were an error in logic will be.. The only thing that you and a few others will do apparently is point to a table and declare it to be your holy grail of rules knowledge.. even though it has no rules text associated, it does not tell how to use the information it gives!! So, since the table itself does not say what to do and that is apparently your only bastion of rules knowledge......
Scion of Coldshard 11-20-07, 09:05 PM	I'm still not going to argue the above points any further Since you never bothered to refute any of my points nor even present an arguable case I assume this means you conceed that the rules do not support removing the spells because a stat decreases. Congrats. You found the exception that proves the rule. Thanks. It also supports my case nicely.
yrogerg 11-20-07, 10:26 PM	Since you never bothered to refute any of my points nor even present an arguable case I assume this means you conceed that the rules do not support removing the spells because a stat decreases. Thanks. It also supports my case nicely. Saying it over and over again doesn't make it so. I said I'm letting these things rest, and will let the evidence I've presented speak for itself at this point, and I mean it. Feel free to present any evidence, at all, ever, to refute it, but you haven't done so at this point. You've simply declared victory. Which, great, if that's your goal here, then you're done. Declaring it over and over again doesn't make you *more* right. And I have no idea how you think the fact that the non-retroactivity of skill ranks, as explicitly spelled out in pages 61-62 of the PHB, supports anything you've claimed. "The exception that proves the rule" is a phrase people use when describing something that *appears* to be an exception to a rule (that all attributes related to an ability score are adjusted when the ability score changes), but actually *reinforces* the rule upon any scrutiny, usually because of explicit language that separates it from the default case (in this case, that it's explicitly stated that Skills are ONLY added upon level-up based on the INT AT THAT POINT, but no such statement exists for any other attribute). The point is, you were the one who tried to lump the Int modifier to skills ranks at level-up in with Turning Attempts and Bonus Hit Points. Page 61-62 of the PHB explicitly separate the Int modifier to skill ranks at level-up from other attributes based on ability scores by making it clear that it's not retroactive, and page 10 also states this explicity and directly contrasts it with other attributes based on ability scores. Furthermore page 10 of the PHB also lists all of the effects that can raise or lower ability scores in greater detail than the SRD, and directly draws equivalency between all of them. It also clearly indicates that magic items like the Headband of Intellect only increase ability scores as long as the character is using them. Read in the most literal way possible, this would mean that when they are removed, it is *as though the relevant ability scores were never increased in the first place*. Which, when it comes down to it, is all that the rest of us have claimed this whole time. Page 10 then goes on to use Mailee's bonus spell slots as an *overt* example of an attribute that changes immediately as her Int score changes, and her previously earned skill ranks as an OVERT example of something that does not change. It ends up, this whole topic becomes even more obvious once we crack open the PHB, rather than relying on the SRD.
Scion of Coldshard 11-20-07, 10:42 PM	Saying it over and over again doesn't make it so. Luckily, what I am saying being true doesnt depend on your accepting it or not. If you could, say, support your position with actual rules that would be refreshing. Pointing to a table that still doesnt say what you want it to say is just boring and useless. And I have no idea how you think the fact that the non-retroactivity of skill ranks, as explicitly spelled out in pages 61-62 of the PHB, supports anything you've claimed. Then you havent been paying attention to the thread. I brought it up in response to a comment that since hp and turning works in a certain way then spells must work in a similar way, even if the rules dont actually say it. Bringing up a clean example that everyone can agree does not work the same way as hp and turning shows that it is not sufficient to say that since two things work one way that everything works the same way. "The exception that proves the rule" I know what the phrase means. In the case of this thread though the rules are clear, people are simply choosing to believe that a rule exists that does not and thereby there are many problems since the rules do not tell them how to adjucate their made up rule. We know when the table is used for spells, when preparing. Nothing says to use the table at any other time. As such, there is no reason to look at it most of the time. Without a rule saying to modify spells in memory relative to the chart whenever the stat changes then spells in memory simply arent modified except in specific cases which are all called out explicitly. (in this case, that it's explicitly stated that Skills are ONLY added upon level-up based on the INT AT THAT POINT, but no such statement exists for any other attribute). Prepared Spell Retention Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind. Spells remain until cast, abandoned, or certain specific events happen. Those specific events mention when and how spells are removed. Stat changes are not listed as being one of these events anywhere, not even on the table, nor are there any rules about how to do so. To assume that spells are removed is to assume that there is a hidden rule that no one can find. That sounds pretty crazy. Earlier I went through every section that is likely to be relevant. There is no mention of such a rule explicitly, there is no mention of how to deal with such a rule, there are no interactions with the rule mentioned.. nothing is said at all about it through several different sections that should mention it explicitly so as to know how to deal with it. No one refuted any of those claims nor showed where I missed something in the relevant texts. Again, to assume that spells are removed is to assume that there is a hidden rule that no one can find. The table does not tell us when or how to remove spells from memory, the text does not tell us when or how.. apparently no rules exist at all for it.. yet people will defend this rule to the death even while not being able to quote it...
JacobReed3 11-20-07, 10:46 PM	Congratulation Coldshard You have created a very articulate and well researched argument. In your post you make the following statement “This doesnt say explicitely that changes to int dont change your current amount of skill points” One thing that was ill placed was the word “explicitly.” You will not find every exception explicitly pointed out. There is just not enough room in literature. Never the less you are right in your assumption that it should be listed or defined elsewhere. I think a concept that you have brought forward is what I refer to as the BK boards. An unpopular idea is brought forth, that may or may not have merit in regards to the rules, so the popular majority attempt to squash or slander the idea, divert it’s meaning, or change the subject altogether. “Without presenting book proof.” Hence ( BK ) - “Have it your way” message boards. Having the last word is not winning, anymore then using BK tactics against to defraud their findings. However when determining a rule if you fail to present book evidence to support your opinion you have stated an opinion. That is all. When there is a complete lack of book evidence similarities and contradictions to corresponding information should be used. Should a ruling forms a contradiction within the books then an explanation needs to accompany the ruling. If no such explanation is given then the ruling is not valid until defined. The rulings made after the publication of a book provide the necessary room, required by literature, to be explicate. When there is a contradiction to the rules, without an explanation, a broken system is formed. Thus the problem is not solved. A poorly, worded question receive a poorly worded answer. I would agree with the game designer on the basis of non-preparation casters as they simply use what spell slots are available at the time. Perhaps this is how he interpreted the question. It a little uncharitable to take these spells form the unused slots but I would not argue it. As for preparation casters they have all but complete the spell in their head. A simpler way of looking at it would be, they have already cast the spell in preparation, they are simply waiting to release the spells effect. Idea popularity should not sway a ruling. The BK concept applies to anyone not willing to hear someone out, examine their evidence, and most importantly provide, valid, alternative evidence. The core books should always be treated as law. This goes both way so it applies to Coldshard as well. Always hear everyone out and give them the opportunity to provide valid proof, and attempt to look at the issue from their position. That being said well done Coldshard but I would not raise the flag of victory just yet. Much like you are looking for the “explicitly says” statement against your argument, look for the “explicitly says” statement that support your side.
Malek2991 11-20-07, 11:17 PM	I agree with the people stating that when your casting stat goes down you lose your bonus spells based on that stat. In the case of removing a stat bonus I'm particularly nice and would give them 3 rds before the slots dissapear, but that's just me.
groveborn 11-21-07, 01:10 AM	Appearantly my last post wasn't clear enough, so instead of bolding the important text, I'll simply paste that. A wizard's level limits the number of spells she can prepare and cast. Her high Intelligence score might allow her to prepare a few extra spells. This is important for the next part, not in and of itself. This is just telling us that level, not a high intelligence determines the number of slots a character has. Keep that in mind please. Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. This part defines the spells as filling a slot. A container. We're not worried about the mechanics of that container. WE DON'T CARE HOW IT'S PREPARED. Forget about memorizing spells. That's not the game. That's flavor. It resides in slots. When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence. Since a higher stat will increase the spell slots allotted, a low one will remove them. Only the bonus spells of course. Again, this tells us that immediately upon a change to a score, anything that score has any control over changes. Spell slots are one of these things. You immediately lose the slot. Bye bye. Since we've established that the SLOT, not a memorized spell is what's disappearing, the container of the spell, the spell must follow suit. Natural english allows us to know this to be fact, not imaginary. One cannot get caught up in silly flavor like a spell in memory. So, to clarify, spells aren't in memory, they're in slots. A wizard doesn't memorize spells, he casts part of it. He's able to do this a certain number of times based on level, and high scores. The spell retention isn't in memory, it's in slots. SLOT SLOT SLOT SLOT SLOT SLOT. The slots have been proven to disapear. The proof is here. There is no proof against this. No examples are needed, if you simply read and comprehend the language.
Scion of Coldshard 11-21-07, 01:17 PM	In order to reach the conclusion you are reaching groveborn you have to ignore rules text I have provided and add in rules text not present. Until you stop doing those two things you are not going to get anywhere useful in the RAW.
risner 11-21-07, 02:01 PM	In order to reach the conclusion you are reaching groveborn you have to ignore rules text I have provided and add in rules text not present. Until you stop doing those two things you are not going to get anywhere useful in the RAW. He ignored no such rules text you have provided, since you have not provided any rules text to support your case. You think you have, but you done so only in your mind and not in reality.
groveborn 11-21-07, 02:50 PM	Me: A+B=C, therefore, C=B+A Scion There's no such thing as A, because it's not in the books. Me: Page 8. Scion: I'm looking on page 100, and there's no mention of A. Me: A Scion: No A.
yrogerg 11-21-07, 06:15 PM	Me: A+B=C, therefore, C=B+A Scion There's no such thing as A, because it's not in the books. Me: Page 8. Scion: I'm looking on page 100, and there's no mention of A. Me: A Scion: No A. Word. Apparently, I referenced some sort of table in this thread, which is weird, as, to the best of my knowledge, I have mentioned no tables up until now. :rolleyes:
Egres 11-22-07, 09:25 AM	Nevermind.
narack 11-22-07, 01:04 PM	What happens when a bag of holding is destroyed? Can you take off the headband to put another on for a short while without losing your bonus spells/powers? 1- you wish it was a big big bag an the Tarasque was inside of it :P. Not for real the rule state that a broken magic item lost all his attribute, and does not gain it back by repairing. So the bag of holding loss his attribute and by the same time what was inside disappear. (the Tarasque part was true though but cost alot $$$ to make one and superb luck to trick her in :P) 2- the way you should be filling your spell the morning is by selecting your normal spell and when you get to the one the headband gives you put in on the list of the headband. when headband lost the unused spell or used spell in there disappear and does not come back when putting back. Same goes for cloak of charisma but it's not calcul as same. Bonus always disappear first so if you had 4/day level 2 spell and with cloak you go up to 6/day, if you havent expended any you loose 2 cast. But if you used 3 left you dont loose any because they were casted already.
Grandpa_Gort 11-24-07, 10:01 AM	Wow, quite a thread! I've got to say its been vastly amusing to read. A lot of rules have been presented, but it looks like Scion of Coldshard wants to see a printed rule that explicitly states the spells are lost, and such a rule doesn't exist. (Though "When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence." comes close enough for most everyone else, I think.) Hmm... Ok, the DMG has one applicable thing to say about adjudicating when there are no explicit rules for a given situation. Often a situation will arise that isn't explicitly covered by the rules. In such a situation, you need to provide guidance as to how it should be resolved. When you come upon a situation that the rules don't seem to cover, consider the following courses of action. Look to any similar situation that is covered in a rulebook. Try to extrapolate from what you see presented there and apply it to the current circumstance. Well, that's been done already... We can all see that changes to attributes immediately affect dependant benefits, such as CON to HP, DEX to AC, or WIS bonus to Spot checks. And that skill points, once gained, are explicitly not affected by INT loss. Damn, the DMG is no help for ya. <snip> EDIT: I don't do snark well. My apologies. :(
ArcTan 11-24-07, 02:23 PM	For once I realize that an argument is stupid and try to do the mature thing and back out of it, and then everyone else keeps it going anyway. Ironic.
groveborn 11-24-07, 11:38 PM	I was having too much fun to back out.
Knightblde 12-04-07, 01:19 AM	My turn, I just found this thread. I have to say, I think I agree with Scion. I know it is not the popular vote, but following the logic of the game, it is the only one that makes sense to me. Here is why: 1) Anytime anything other than memorized spells are in question, the current ability score tells you what is going on. If strength is damaged then healed, there is no full day effect. If con is damaged then healed, hit points are returned. 2) Only one type of caster is affected by this. That seems odd to me. What is the point of making prepared casters weaker, maybe, and only if they did not cast the spells of that level for the day? For instance, if at level 3 with a int of 14, if I already cast all my 2nd level spells, then there would be no 'spell loss'. Devestating only one type of character's base class skills throughout the rest of the day just seems at odds with the core mechanic. 3) Is there any reason to believe that someone in a magic dead/antimagic area would lose prepared spells do to ability loss from items? If so, is a spontaneous caster equally screwed if they lose their ability score? 4) Should a 5th level spell (feeblemind) be able to decimate a character for the rest of the day, even if healed in the next round? 5) Since you could not memorize a spell if your ability score is too low, would it not stand to reason you would lose all of the spells associated with your ability that you can no longer cast if the FAQ was infact correct? Now, I am not so zealous in this that I will state Mr. Williams has no clue what he is talking about. The problem is, I can't understand what is written in the quote below. As presented, no offense, I don't know what he said vs. what the poster is saying. If Mr. Williams did respond with the entire quote, then I still have a hard time breaking it down. The short answer is: Use your current stat to determine bonus spells. If you have too few -- too bad unless the situation prevails when it's time for you to renew spells for the day. If you have too many, lose the difference immediately. "Use your current stat to determine bonus spells." OK, current means what I have now. As such when my int goes up, so do my bonus spells. Most of us disagree with that, right? "If you have too few -- too bad unless the situation prevails when it's time for you to renew spells for the day." Does this mean it only matters when you are renewing spells? This whole conversation is about the situation prevailing to have the bonus int back well before the time to gain spells. "If you have too many, lose the difference immediately." Have to many when? When you memorize them? When you want to cast them? Even after everyone's arguements I am confused. Does a spontaneous caster lose slots when their ability is damaged? If so, when their ability is healed, do they gain it back? I know someone posted here that they do not, but others disagreed with that. The strongest argument for me is that no other type of character is effected the same way from any ability loss. I have no problem with the effects while the ability is lost, but once healed every other type of character is back to normal. Making it different for those that memorize spells just seems off to me. Without trolling and flaming, I am interested in your thoughts on what I think are a new angle. I am not trying to 'prove' anything, just trying to have a debate. Happy Gaming!
yrogerg 12-04-07, 01:53 AM	1) Anytime anything other than memorized spells are in question, the current ability score tells you what is going on. If strength is damaged then healed, there is no full day effect. If con is damaged then healed, hit points are returned. I could make the same point about Coldshard's stance. In fact, we all have. Repeatedly. Every other attribute based on ability scores changes when the ability score changes. Spells aren't called out as an exception, whereas skills are. The question of whether spells return with the spell slots is a separate one from Coldshard's argument (that spell slots never disappear *at all* when the relevant scores change). 2) Only one type of caster is affected by this. That seems odd to me. What is the point of making prepared casters weaker, maybe, and only if they did not cast the spells of that level for the day? For instance, if at level 3 with a int of 14, if I already cast all my 2nd level spells, then there would be no 'spell loss'. Devestating only one type of character's base class skills throughout the rest of the day just seems at odds with the core mechanic. Given all of the other advantages prepared casters have, making them every slightly weaker in this manner doesn't seem all that problematic to me. They're still way better than sorcerers. I mean, prepared casters make up the three most powerful classes in the game. Why would a ruling that weakens them ever so marginally be such a bad thing? 3) Is there any reason to believe that someone in a magic dead/antimagic area would lose prepared spells do to ability loss from items? If so, is a spontaneous caster equally screwed if they lose their ability score? Yes. The spontaneous caster also loses their bonus spells/day in this situation. The alternative is one where the prepared caster is not affected, but the spontaneous caster still loses their bonus spells/day (since they aren't pre-assigned) 4) Should a 5th level spell (feeblemind) be able to decimate a character for the rest of the day, even if healed in the next round? It doesn't. All it does is wipe *bonus* spells. Base spells are preserved, so the character is hardly decimated. But, look at other 5th level spells: Hold Monster, Dominate Person, Magic Jar, Cloudkill, Baleful Polymorph. We're talking Save or Die stuff, already. Compared to these, Feeblemind is hardly overpowered, even if it wipes bonus spells. 5) Since you could not memorize a spell if your ability score is too low, would it not stand to reason you would lose all of the spells associated with your ability that you can no longer cast if the FAQ was infact correct? I'm not sure I understand this. Only bonus spells would be lost from ability score loss. You just can't *cast* any spells if your ability score is below 10.
groveborn 12-04-07, 04:19 AM	I thought this dead. Guess people are insistent on not reading everything. Bonus spells are lost when the primary attribute falls too low. No other spells are lost, though they can't be cast if the score is low enough. When the stat returns to its previous high state, or a new higher state is reached, the slots return, but are empty, and can be filled only at the start of the new day. This is true for all types of casters. Divine, of course, prepare at certain times, and are not dependent on new days, only the right time. If you think this is bad, consider getting wands and staffs. That's what they're for.
Knightblde 12-04-07, 10:21 AM	Look, I was only trying to have a debate on what I thought was a new angle, not just rehash all the same points from both sides. I am just interested in talking about the rules and why. Just like two friends having a conversation.
risner 12-04-07, 12:30 PM	1) Anytime anything other than memorized spells are in question, the current ability score tells you what is going on. 2) Only one type of caster is affected by this. 3) Is there any reason to believe that someone in a magic dead/antimagic area would lose prepared spells do to ability loss from items? If so, is a spontaneous caster equally screwed if they lose their ability score? 4) Should a 5th level spell (feeblemind) be able to decimate a character for the rest of the day, even if healed in the next round? 5) Since you could not memorize a spell if your ability score is too low, would it not stand to reason you would lose all of the spells associated with your ability that you can no longer cast if the FAQ was infact correct? These are new angles, but unfortunately you are misunderstanding the implications of the removal. There is no RAW that says they removed spell slots are not returned when the ability score impairment is returned. There is only RAW saying they are removed. If a DM chooses to burn them for the day, that is his choice. 1) Exactly, which is the reason the only option is that you lose spells when you lose your casting stat. 2) No, everyone is effected equally (prepared and spontaneous.) 3) If Antimagic negated your +6 WIS item, then yes you would lose bonus spell slots and if it was low enough, you wouldn't be able to cast spells of X level depending on how low it went. Spontaneous is equally screwed. 4) If the damage/penalty is remove the slots should return. It is DM fiat what that means. Return (in my world) means you get the spell slots you lost back as they were with the spells in them that you had. Other DMs may not return the slots, but instead count them as expended. You seem to be thinking expended is what this is thread is suggesting. This thread is mostly about "do you lose them or not" instead of "do you lose them to have them return when you put the hat back on?" 5) The FAQ is correct. Do you mean if you had a 10 WIS as a Paladin and lost you +6 WIS item (putting you back at WIS 10), then yes. You wouldn't be able to cast any spells since you need at least a WIS 11 to cast 1st level spells.
Knightblde 12-04-07, 01:23 PM	These are new angles, but unfortunately you are misunderstanding the implications of the removal. There is no RAW that says they removed spell slots are not returned when the ability score impairment is returned. There is only RAW saying they are removed. If a DM chooses to burn them for the day, that is his choice. There is not question, to me, that when an ability is lost it effects the ability to cast spells. My only issue, and I am just thinking outloud, not carving my position in stone, is when the ability comes back. The only RAW about them being removed is the FAQ correct? For the record, I usually consider the *** and RotG to be RAW or very close. But this one troubles me a bit, as I mentioned before. 4) If the damage/penalty is remove the slots should return. It is DM fiat what that means. Return (in my world) means you get the spell slots you lost back as they were with the spells in them that you had. Other DMs may not return the slots, but instead count them as expended. You seem to be thinking expended is what this is thread is suggesting. This thread is mostly about "do you lose them or not" instead of "do you lose them to have them return when you put the hat back on?" Hmm. I always thought it was about if you get them back once healed/fixed. I didn't even think Scion was stating that you can actually do anything with the spells/slots in question unless you actually get healed. I thought this dead. Guess people are insistent on not reading everything. No, I read it all, took me about an hour. I might have missed something as many ideas were just rehashed it got confusing. Having done it all in one sitting also made it harder to digest who said what when. But I did read it all and I am trying to have an intelligent discussion about it. I would have looked at it earlier if I had any idea this is what the topic was about. Based on the title I never would have guessed.
yrogerg 12-04-07, 08:28 PM	There is not question, to me, that when an ability is lost it effects the ability to cast spells. My only issue, and I am just thinking outloud, not carving my position in stone, is when the ability comes back. The only RAW about them being removed is the FAQ correct? Depends very strongly on your definition of RAW. I think the evidence cited in this thread would qualify as RAW, it just requires you to think for a minute about how different RAW statments interact. Nothing explicitly says "spells are removed when the character no longer has the ability scores to have bonus spells," but this conclusion follows directly from the things that the PHB *does* plainly state. For the record, I usually consider the *** and RotG to be RAW or very close. But this one troubles me a bit, as I mentioned before.For the record, I don't, usually. I consider it to be converging evidence, the same way I consider the opinions of random forumgoers to be converging evidence. However, I do consider significant portions of the PHB to provide RAW support for my opinion (and that of the FAQ in this case), as previously quoted. Also, it's FAQ. The other one pings the profanity filter. Hmm. I always thought it was about if you get them back once healed/fixed. I didn't even think Scion was stating that you can actually do anything with the spells/slots in question unless you actually get healed. You might want to re-read the thread, then. He's rather clearly stated his opinion -repeatedly- that you only note the number of spell slots upon preparation, and changes in abilities won't cause you to lose access to those spell slots once prepared. No, I read it all, took me about an hour. I might have missed something as many ideas were just rehashed it got confusing. Having done it all in one sitting also made it harder to digest who said what when. But I did read it all and I am trying to have an intelligent discussion about it. I would have looked at it earlier if I had any idea this is what the topic was about. Based on the title I never would have guessed. I suspect you did miss something. This particular issue, of whether or not spells are regained when spell slots were lost was addressed about two pages ago, and I presented my rationale for treating wiped spells as "cast", and needing 8 hours to restore.