Bag of Holding, squared [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bag of Holding, squared [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FlyingCowKing
02-24-04, 09:58 PM Ok, let me apologize ahead of time for this, nit-picking, inane, and totally uninteresting question, but I just gotta know. :)

3.5 DMG, pg.248 Under Bag of Holding, it mentions what happens when you put a Bag of holding into a portable hole, and mentions something else that happens when you put a portable hole into a bag of holding. Two scenarios, two different effects.

(nit-picking crap ensues) What happens if you put a bag of holding into a bag of holding, or a portable hole into a portable hole? Nothing? The same thing that happens above? Am I a moron for asking?

Feel free to respond in a negative and insulting way, Go Nutz! :)

Thx
NestroEmichae
02-24-04, 10:17 PM If you have a kind DM, nothing. If you have an evil DM, expect to die.
Heron_Marked_Blade
02-24-04, 10:31 PM Expect to die. No unpleasant surprises that way. Although if your DM is REALLY evil.... :devil:
channel_dunlap
02-24-04, 11:02 PM I was actually wondering this myself a couple of days ago. Does anyone know for sure, or is it just a DM call?
Seeker95
02-24-04, 11:03 PM If you put a bag of holding into a bag of holding, treat it as if you had put a bag of holding into a portable hole.

If you put a portable hole into a portable hole, treat is as if you had placed a portable hole inside a bag of holding.

This would be based on the effect occuring because you are placing an extra-dimensional object into an extra-dimensional object. The object going in dictates the outcome.

Or reverse it, if you want!
Krynus Ogrebane
02-25-04, 04:42 AM Originally posted by Seeker95
If you put a bag of holding into a bag of holding, treat it as if you had put a bag of holding into a portable hole.

If you put a portable hole into a portable hole, treat is as if you had placed a portable hole inside a bag of holding.

This would be based on the effect occuring because you are placing an extra-dimensional object into an extra-dimensional object. The object going in dictates the outcome.

Or reverse it, if you want!

After reading the description for the magic items, then perusing the spells used to make them, my hypothesis is that the consequences are only dangerous if you put a Portable Hole into another extra-dimensional space (creating a "gate"). Putting the Bag of Holding into the Portable Hole only creates a "rift" and the items (and contents, I imagine) are lost, with no danger of being sucked in.

What I want to know is, is it different with things like Rope Trick, Belt of Many Pockets (T&B), Quiver of Ehlonna, or Heward's Handy Haversack? I imagine it would depend on whether a Portable Hole was placed in it (gate), or vice versa (rift).
Thelon Fairblade
02-25-04, 10:30 AM For added fun, send the party through a Portal (Forgotten Realms has many of them, especially in the Underdark; otherwise, try Planescape)! Boom!
Llathos
02-25-04, 10:45 AM My DM told me that it would rip a hole to the Astral plane and suck us all in and dump us there.

Of course, the players then got excited that they had a means to Planar Jaunt...

Oh well.
Zherog
02-25-04, 12:39 PM Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane
What I want to know is, is it different with things like Rope Trick, Belt of Many Pockets (T&B), Quiver of Ehlonna, or Heward's Handy Haversack? I imagine it would depend on whether a Portable Hole was placed in it (gate), or vice versa (rift).

This has always been something I've pondered. Especially, for an example, taking a Handy Haversack into the effects of a Rope Trick.

The best I have ever been able to determine is nothing happens. I'm not so sure I like that, though.
Ryll
02-25-04, 12:54 PM I have always thought that rope trick, magnificent mansion and the like do not follow the same rules with extradimensional items. By the time parties get magnificent mansion, it is reasonable to assume someone would have a bag, portable hole, quiver...something... and there is no way they would leave it outside the effect while they sleep. It would make the mansion spell rather ineffective, as well as eliminate the uses of rope trick and the like.

Personally, I have never liked the portable hole/bag of holding rules. Stacking them would not be overpowered, as these items shouldn't be so plentiful that they present such problems.
Zherog
02-25-04, 01:30 PM Originally posted by Ryll
I have always thought that rope trick, magnificent mansion and the like do not follow the same rules with extradimensional items. By the time parties get magnificent mansion, it is reasonable to assume someone would have a bag, portable hole, quiver...something... and there is no way they would leave it outside the effect while they sleep. It would make the mansion spell rather ineffective, as well as eliminate the uses of rope trick and the like.

That's pretty much my conclusion as well. Also, I would think the spells would say something if some horrible, awful effect was supposed to happen.
escherblacksmith
07-20-04, 01:09 PM I think the mansion and rope trick create pocket dimensions, so the dimension didn't really exist and is considered a demiplane, albeit very small and temporary.

However, the bags and quiver and so on all put their spaces into non-dimensional space.

That said, the way we play having, say, a haversack in a bag of holding is it generates a lot of noise in the astral plain, which can attrack Xill or the like.

Usually when we least expect it.
amaterasu
10-16-04, 09:21 AM I think the mansion and rope trick create pocket dimensions, so the dimension didn't really exist and is considered a demiplane, albeit very small and temporary.

However, the bags and quiver and so on all put their spaces into non-dimensional space.

IIRC back in Planescape days there was a difference between low level spells like rope trick, which "borrow" their space from the astral and higher ones like Mordenkainens's Magnificent Mansion create their own demiplanes.
Anyway, at the of the Rope Trick spell description is a paragraph, which states explicitely, that "it is hazardous to ... take an extradimensional space in an existing one." Given that, SOMETHING should happen, if PCs enter a rope trick space with one of the extradimensional items. On the other hand, "extradimensional" includes also M.M.Mansion.... :weep:
The official voice of the sgae in Dragon 291 says: "Spells that produce their own extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick,
pose no danger to occupants who might be using portable holes, bags of
holding and the like" (Dragon Issue 291, page 104).
I my campaign I rule along the Planescape argumentation, because it seems most logical (whatever it's worth in this multiverse... ;))
Frank the Vandal
10-16-04, 03:18 PM This is from the 3.0 FAQ, not the 3.5 one, which doesn't mention this topic. I don't see a reason why it wouldn't still be valid, though.

Will extradimensional items rupture a bag of holding?
The DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide says that a bag of holding placed within a portable hole tears a rift to the Astral Plane. Bag and hole alike are then sucked into the void and forever lost. The DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide also says that when a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process. However, the description for Heward’s handy haversack makes no mention of any rifts or gates. This implies that only the combination of a bag of holding and portable hole forms a rift or gate. Thus, a bag of holding could be placed inside another bag of holding with no unusual effects.
It’s a general rule that you can’t mix items containing nondimensional or extradimensional spaces (things that are bigger inside than out) with each other or with portable holes. Such combinations tend to strain the fabric of the cosmos. Putting one bag of holding within another is just like putting the bag into a portable hole. Items that function like bags of holding, such as Heward’s handy haversacks, cause the same mishaps when mishandled.
Note you can freely go plane hopping with portable holes, bags of holding, and the like. Spells that produce their own extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, and the like.
Sakaki22
10-16-04, 11:37 PM DM: You have found a bag.
PC: A bag...? Bag of what? Bag of Holding?
DM: Nothing.
PC: Nothing?
DM: A big Bag of Nothing.
PC: I open the bag.
DM: The nothing escapes the bag and envelops the multiverse. Everything inside the realms becomes nothing, nonexistant. You all die, game over! *slams his DMG shut and walks off*

One hour and a half of complaining and utter hatred later, we had new characters and a burning hatred to desecrate the first thing the DM threw at us.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FlyingCowKing 02-24-04, 09:58 PM	Ok, let me apologize ahead of time for this, nit-picking, inane, and totally uninteresting question, but I just gotta know. :) 3.5 DMG, pg.248 Under Bag of Holding, it mentions what happens when you put a Bag of holding into a portable hole, and mentions something else that happens when you put a portable hole into a bag of holding. Two scenarios, two different effects. (nit-picking crap ensues) What happens if you put a bag of holding into a bag of holding, or a portable hole into a portable hole? Nothing? The same thing that happens above? Am I a moron for asking? Feel free to respond in a negative and insulting way, Go Nutz! :) Thx
NestroEmichae 02-24-04, 10:17 PM	If you have a kind DM, nothing. If you have an evil DM, expect to die.
Heron_Marked_Blade 02-24-04, 10:31 PM	Expect to die. No unpleasant surprises that way. Although if your DM is REALLY evil.... :devil:
channel_dunlap 02-24-04, 11:02 PM	I was actually wondering this myself a couple of days ago. Does anyone know for sure, or is it just a DM call?
Seeker95 02-24-04, 11:03 PM	If you put a bag of holding into a bag of holding, treat it as if you had put a bag of holding into a portable hole. If you put a portable hole into a portable hole, treat is as if you had placed a portable hole inside a bag of holding. This would be based on the effect occuring because you are placing an extra-dimensional object into an extra-dimensional object. The object going in dictates the outcome. Or reverse it, if you want!
Krynus Ogrebane 02-25-04, 04:42 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 If you put a bag of holding into a bag of holding, treat it as if you had put a bag of holding into a portable hole. If you put a portable hole into a portable hole, treat is as if you had placed a portable hole inside a bag of holding. This would be based on the effect occuring because you are placing an extra-dimensional object into an extra-dimensional object. The object going in dictates the outcome. Or reverse it, if you want! After reading the description for the magic items, then perusing the spells used to make them, my hypothesis is that the consequences are only dangerous if you put a Portable Hole into another extra-dimensional space (creating a "gate"). Putting the Bag of Holding into the Portable Hole only creates a "rift" and the items (and contents, I imagine) are lost, with no danger of being sucked in. What I want to know is, is it different with things like Rope Trick, Belt of Many Pockets (T&B), Quiver of Ehlonna, or Heward's Handy Haversack? I imagine it would depend on whether a Portable Hole was placed in it (gate), or vice versa (rift).
Thelon Fairblade 02-25-04, 10:30 AM	For added fun, send the party through a Portal (Forgotten Realms has many of them, especially in the Underdark; otherwise, try Planescape)! Boom!
Llathos 02-25-04, 10:45 AM	My DM told me that it would rip a hole to the Astral plane and suck us all in and dump us there. Of course, the players then got excited that they had a means to Planar Jaunt... Oh well.
Zherog 02-25-04, 12:39 PM	Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane What I want to know is, is it different with things like Rope Trick, Belt of Many Pockets (T&B), Quiver of Ehlonna, or Heward's Handy Haversack? I imagine it would depend on whether a Portable Hole was placed in it (gate), or vice versa (rift). This has always been something I've pondered. Especially, for an example, taking a Handy Haversack into the effects of a Rope Trick. The best I have ever been able to determine is nothing happens. I'm not so sure I like that, though.
Ryll 02-25-04, 12:54 PM	I have always thought that rope trick, magnificent mansion and the like do not follow the same rules with extradimensional items. By the time parties get magnificent mansion, it is reasonable to assume someone would have a bag, portable hole, quiver...something... and there is no way they would leave it outside the effect while they sleep. It would make the mansion spell rather ineffective, as well as eliminate the uses of rope trick and the like. Personally, I have never liked the portable hole/bag of holding rules. Stacking them would not be overpowered, as these items shouldn't be so plentiful that they present such problems.
Zherog 02-25-04, 01:30 PM	Originally posted by Ryll I have always thought that rope trick, magnificent mansion and the like do not follow the same rules with extradimensional items. By the time parties get magnificent mansion, it is reasonable to assume someone would have a bag, portable hole, quiver...something... and there is no way they would leave it outside the effect while they sleep. It would make the mansion spell rather ineffective, as well as eliminate the uses of rope trick and the like. That's pretty much my conclusion as well. Also, I would think the spells would say something if some horrible, awful effect was supposed to happen.
escherblacksmith 07-20-04, 01:09 PM	I think the mansion and rope trick create pocket dimensions, so the dimension didn't really exist and is considered a demiplane, albeit very small and temporary. However, the bags and quiver and so on all put their spaces into non-dimensional space. That said, the way we play having, say, a haversack in a bag of holding is it generates a lot of noise in the astral plain, which can attrack Xill or the like. Usually when we least expect it.
amaterasu 10-16-04, 09:21 AM	I think the mansion and rope trick create pocket dimensions, so the dimension didn't really exist and is considered a demiplane, albeit very small and temporary. However, the bags and quiver and so on all put their spaces into non-dimensional space. IIRC back in Planescape days there was a difference between low level spells like rope trick, which "borrow" their space from the astral and higher ones like Mordenkainens's Magnificent Mansion create their own demiplanes. Anyway, at the of the Rope Trick spell description is a paragraph, which states explicitely, that "it is hazardous to ... take an extradimensional space in an existing one." Given that, SOMETHING should happen, if PCs enter a rope trick space with one of the extradimensional items. On the other hand, "extradimensional" includes also M.M.Mansion.... :weep: The official voice of the sgae in Dragon 291 says: "Spells that produce their own extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to occupants who might be using portable holes, bags of holding and the like" (Dragon Issue 291, page 104). I my campaign I rule along the Planescape argumentation, because it seems most logical (whatever it's worth in this multiverse... ;))
Frank the Vandal 10-16-04, 03:18 PM	This is from the 3.0 FAQ, not the 3.5 one, which doesn't mention this topic. I don't see a reason why it wouldn't still be valid, though. Will extradimensional items rupture a bag of holding? The DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide says that a bag of holding placed within a portable hole tears a rift to the Astral Plane. Bag and hole alike are then sucked into the void and forever lost. The DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide also says that when a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process. However, the description for Heward’s handy haversack makes no mention of any rifts or gates. This implies that only the combination of a bag of holding and portable hole forms a rift or gate. Thus, a bag of holding could be placed inside another bag of holding with no unusual effects. It’s a general rule that you can’t mix items containing nondimensional or extradimensional spaces (things that are bigger inside than out) with each other or with portable holes. Such combinations tend to strain the fabric of the cosmos. Putting one bag of holding within another is just like putting the bag into a portable hole. Items that function like bags of holding, such as Heward’s handy haversacks, cause the same mishaps when mishandled. Note you can freely go plane hopping with portable holes, bags of holding, and the like. Spells that produce their own extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, and the like.
Sakaki22 10-16-04, 11:37 PM	DM: You have found a bag. PC: A bag...? Bag of what? Bag of Holding? DM: Nothing. PC: Nothing? DM: A big Bag of Nothing. PC: I open the bag. DM: The nothing escapes the bag and envelops the multiverse. Everything inside the realms becomes nothing, nonexistant. You all die, game over! slams his DMG shut and walks off One hour and a half of complaining and utter hatred later, we had new characters and a burning hatred to desecrate the first thing the DM threw at us.