Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nosfera2 06-08-06, 11:50 AM	I have a party that has gotten a hold of a bag of holding. One of the things they have been doing lately is putting people in the bag of holding so they can get more people with a single teleport. Is this acceptable? Once the bag of holding is closed are they just another piece of equipment?
DaMullet 06-08-06, 11:55 AM	No, it's still magical. However, since they're nigh weightless, I don't have a problem with it. Of course, if they're putting people in a portable hole and putting that in a bag of holding... That's troublesome.
Someone 06-08-06, 12:02 PM	And there is an easy way to counter that tactic, if you want to discourage it: have something happen to the teleporter. The teleport spell can miss, dropping the caster off a cliff (extreme case). The caster could teleport right into the middle of the enemy barracks. A few high-CR melee monsters could easily take out a wizard before he could open the bag for help. And then the monsters could peruse the contents of the bag at their convenience.
Alac Luin 06-08-06, 12:25 PM	I'd calculate the weight and see if they have overloaded the bag. "If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever."
nosfera2 06-08-06, 12:34 PM	So, bottom line, you guys feel this isn't against any rules? I'm not looking to foil every plan my players have, I'm just making sure that this is fine within the rules.
mvincent 06-08-06, 12:37 PM	So, bottom line, you guys feel this isn't against any rules? Correct. However, they might run out of air quickly.
runestar 06-08-06, 12:41 PM	That is how the combo is supposed to work, especially in conjunction with reduce person. It's even been suggested in the ELH, so there's nothing broken about said combo. It's also very easy to screw over. Like say...the enemy happens to intercept you and the lone spellcaster finds himself surrounded by a bunch of foes while the rest of his party is hiding inside the bag of holding... ;)
Alac Luin 06-08-06, 12:49 PM	Correct. However, they might run out of air quickly. As per description, they have 10 minutes. "If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate."
mvincent 06-08-06, 12:59 PM	I'd calculate the weight and see if they have overloaded the bag.That should not happen without some forcing i.e. it should not happen simply because the PC's forgot to weight everything before gently placing it inside the bag.
mvincent 06-08-06, 01:00 PM	As per description, they have 10 minutes.Correct... normally only an issue if the bag carrier gets waylaid somehow.
Sarlax 06-08-06, 08:26 PM	And there is an easy way to counter that tactic, if you want to discourage it: have something happen to the teleporter. Eventually, it gets increasingly difficult to explain why there's always a troll at the destination, or why the caster always just happens to appear in front of explosive runes, etc. It's also unfair to do this; the players aren't doing anything wrong. Of course, if the PCs are always trying to jump into the center of the Tower of Evil, the DM's within reason to have a dangerous encounter prepared and waiting for intruders. Smart players will use this trick to reduce travel time and to make quick escapes. IE, they just to the edge of the Tower of Evil's domain. If they're in trouble, they throw up a Wall of Force, jump in the portable hole, and teleport out.
mvincent 06-08-06, 08:59 PM	Eventually, it gets increasingly difficult to explain why there's always a troll at the destination, or why the caster always just happens to appear in front of explosive runes, etc. It's also unfair to do this; the players aren't doing anything wrong.Right. I don't see why it needs to be discouraged. Once they have access to teleport, overland travel is pretty much over even without this trick. Of course, if the PCs are always trying to jump into the center of the Tower of Evil, the DM's within reason to have a dangerous encounter prepared and waiting for intruders.Certainly. That's why I'd be happy with a party that uses the bag-o-teleport technique, as it inherently discourages scry-and-fry tactics, and it makes every teleport that much more... 'exciting'. i.e. a teleporting mishap (underwater, in the air, etc.) could become that much worse. Smart players will use this trick to reduce travel time and to make quick escapes. IE, they just to the edge of the Tower of Evil's domain. If they're in trouble, they throw up a Wall of Force, jump in the portable hole, and teleport out.Since they could just as easily use rope-trick to gain some respite, I don't see it as being something that needs to be nerfed.
isaac anthony 06-08-06, 10:23 PM	Since they could just as easily use rope-trick to gain some respite, I don't see it as being something that needs to be nerfed. I dunno if I would recommend that strategy to the owner of a "Bag of holding"...
Jaeron Dalur 06-08-06, 11:20 PM	That is how the combo is supposed to work, especially in conjunction with reduce person. It's even been suggested in the ELH, so there's nothing broken about said combo. It's also very easy to screw over. Like say...the enemy happens to intercept you and the lone spellcaster finds himself surrounded by a bunch of foes while the rest of his party is hiding inside the bag of holding... ;) The quickest thing for the wizard to do in that situation is to just cut open the bag of holding. When cut from the outseide, everything just immediately falls out of the bag. Might take a round for everyone to become un-prone but it's quicker than reaching in and pulling all of them out.
mvincent 06-08-06, 11:29 PM	I dunno if I would recommend that strategy to the owner of a "Bag of holding"...The FAQ and the RotG have stated that is not a problem.
Alac Luin 06-08-06, 11:34 PM	That should not happen without some forcing i.e. it should not happen simply because the PC's forgot to weight everything before gently placing it inside the bag. I don't know, trying to stick a human sized fighter in plate mail armor into the bag counts as forceing to me.
Alac Luin 06-08-06, 11:37 PM	The quickest thing for the wizard to do in that situation is to just cut open the bag of holding. When cut from the outseide, everything just immediately falls out of the bag. Might take a round for everyone to become un-prone but it's quicker than reaching in and pulling all of them out. Cutting the bag would count as "or if sharp objects pierce it" part of the item description I had above. If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever." now the best thing to do is "If a bag of holding is turned inside out, its contents spill out, unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again. "
Minias 06-09-06, 12:39 AM	Considering the description of a Bag of Holding's dimension: "This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size." I would question the ability of an average sized platemailed human being able to contort himself into a 2 foot hole (I assume the bag's 2 foot dimension is the top, or opening of the bag). Perhaps an Escape Artist check?
utilitarian 06-09-06, 01:43 AM	One of the common misconceptions about the bag of holding regards "what it can hold" versus "what you can put in it" In order to store an item in it, the item must be able to fit in the OPENING of the bag. It's not simply a question of weight. If what you're trying to put into it couldn't be placed through the 2 foot opening of the bag, it ain't goin in. The average plate wearing paladin would have a hard time getting INTO the bag, if it could be done at all. Now, using it with your gnome or halfling, or a Reduced Person is another matter.
mvincent 06-09-06, 02:04 AM	If what you're trying to put into it couldn't be placed through the 2 foot opening of the bag, it ain't goin in. The average plate wearing paladin would have a hard time getting INTO the bag, if it could be done at all.I bet you 1 cp you are incorrect. Care to accept the wager so we can start measuring things?
Chrono Nexus 06-09-06, 09:30 AM	I had always assumed the bag resized, just like most other wondrous items.
Bill Lumberg 06-09-06, 11:51 AM	I would rule that only things that can fit inside the opening can be placed within. In order for characters to get inside they must reduce or fit in naturally. In either case you could rule that they are so tangled up with eachother or other suff in the bag that it is difficult to get out. Imagine being in a giant suspended bag with five or six other people and trying to climb out. You would have no leverage for footing and would probably slide back down. If you don't want to have the caster attacked by a combatant then just have a thief swipe the bag. Let the caster go looking for his friends, all the while worrying about their air supply.
mvincent 06-09-06, 12:11 PM	I would rule that only things that can fit inside the opening can be placed within.A 2' sack wide opening can actually fit a lot of things (think potato sack race). People in platemail shouldn't have a problem. In either case you could rule that they are so tangled up with eachother or other suff in the bag that it is difficult to get out. Imagine being in a giant suspended bag with five or six other people and trying to climb out. You would have no leverage for footing and would probably slide back down.I don't believe that is how the bag works. Objects inside are generally just suspended in non-dimensional space. Per the BoH wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag_of_holding): "Even if the bag is filled to capacity the objects inside never damage or even touch one another, which means that a character could fill a bag of holding full of eggs and weapons, for example, without any fear of breaking the eggs." If you don't want to have the caster attacked by a combatant then just have a thief swipe the bag. Let the caster go looking for his friends, all the while worrying about their air supply.A favorite villian could have someone do this also, but getting to the carrier in the brief time that the party is in the bag is the trick.
utilitarian 06-09-06, 12:55 PM	I bet you 1 cp you are incorrect. Care to accept the wager so we can start measuring things? I accept your challenge sir, and select a Human Fighter of average bulk, wearing full platemail, with a longsword, medium shield, and a decently full backpack on his back, which I think is about what the average fighter would have, size wise.
mvincent 06-09-06, 01:59 PM	I accept your challenge sir, and select a Human Fighter of average bulk, wearing full platemail, with a longsword, medium shield, and a decently full backpack on his back, which I think is about what the average fighter would have, size wise.Ok. Lessee, a 2' wide circular hole will have a circumference of about 6.3' or about 75.6". The bag opening will also be flexible. A man's chest measurement will be about 40", plus about 6" for armor (well-made armor shouldn't bulge too much much)... but he could also squeeze his shoulders in (reducing that 46" to about 40"). His weapon hanging at his side shouldn't alter those dimensions. His backpack would, but that doesn't have to be on him (if he was exiting under emergency situations, he could simply leave it in the bag until later). His shield could also increase those dimensions (assuming he wishes to keep it strapped on) but possibly not if he raised it above his head. That leaves about 35" to spare... easily enough room to accommodate a slender elven sorceress entering at the same time (assuming she was holding onto him close enough).
JoshuaWilhoyte 06-09-06, 03:50 PM	That's what we're doing right now when we need ot teleport. We don't have a full arcane caster, but we have an artificer with a few scrolls of teleport for emergencies. So we cram the gnome and the elf and the bard in the bag right before we teleport, and then let them out immediately afterward. We try to do this rarely. The only time we left someone in the bag for a while, we had a sentient undead and a warforged, and the warforged had to strip off every piece of equipment and store them in the bag before manuevered his way into the bag. They did leave us in there for a while though. Oh, and of course, all Haversacks are stripped from the Holees before we toss them in. In the previous game, we had a Portable Hole, and we had to teleport all over the place because plot was in a hurry. Well, the Wizard could only get three or four of us, but we had a carpet of flying. So the Archer and ninja and druid would spend a few minutes in the Hole, while the Wizard, Cleric and Fighter teleported. It was then the Cleric and Fighter's job to immediately spread the hole out on the ground so the others could fly out on the carpet, regardless of situation. We did come into a couple hot spots that way, but between good initiative rolls, prepped actions in the Hole ot get out ASAP, and the occasional well placed Wall of Force, we never got screwed by it. Fortunately our heaviest hitters were never in the hole to start with, that way in case things did go bad, the Archmage and Barbarian/Cleric were usually able to fend for themselves.
The Simbul 06-10-06, 10:30 PM	How many people are in the party, that would require such drastic and cheesy tactics? The earliest level at which teleport is available to a wizard is 9th, which means at the minimum caster level you can bring along yourself, plus three other characters. If a given adventuring party has more than four characters, then I would hope that one of them would be an extra arcane caster.
Ryll 06-11-06, 09:53 PM	How many people are in the party, that would require such drastic and cheesy tactics? The earliest level at which teleport is available to a wizard is 9th, which means at the minimum caster level you can bring along yourself, plus three other characters. If a given adventuring party has more than four characters, then I would hope that one of them would be an extra arcane caster. We have 5 in our group, just one arcane caster (me). We have no bag of holding, nor portable hole, so we cannot follow this tactic, and thus, teleport is not an option unless I memorize 3 so I can go back and forth enough to get entire group. I would love to use the bag of holding or portable hole strategy, but alas, it is not within our grasp :( (Our group has 1 Paladin, 1 Cleric/Fighter, 1 Rogue, 1 Wizard and 1 character that is a PrC(Melee type) on top of that divine chosen or whatever it is called) (edited to add: In my opinion, the tactic described isn't really all that cheesy or drastic considering the time that can be saved for such a move)
nosfera2 06-12-06, 01:06 PM	My group has 5 members and only one caster with teleport right now, this may change. Also, one of the members has become attached to his buffed up heavy warhorse and he's not a paladin so he can't just magically call it from the celestial plane. If we want to bring the horse along that counts as another 2 people. So this strategy has become very popular. I may have some fun with it some day but overall I was just curious if it was possible. They'll be happy to know it is and they can continue . . . until I decide to implement one of the evil little things that you guys have brainstormed.