Balance of wide-open summon monster spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balance of wide-open summon monster spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MythMage
02-18-05, 10:38 PM I am considering allowing players to summon whatever extraplanar creatures that their character knows of with the summon monster spells, within the appropriate power level.

Basically, the monster's CR simply has to be the same or less than the number of the summon monster spell. The CRs of standard summon monster monsters are really irregular, so they weren't much help.

Please tell me what you think.
Seeker95
02-19-05, 08:11 AM Dangerous. Players can come up with real cheese in the middle of a game.

A slightly different take is to allow your players out of game to submit potential additions to the [i]summon monster[/]i list. That way, out-of-game, you-the-DM can evaluate the suggestions for balance. Your players know wht they can do, and you know what they might try to do.
Bloodtide_the_Red
02-20-05, 12:10 AM It's a bad idea. There are way too many creatures out there. You realy don't want the players just summoning up the perfect monster for every encounter. The ways this can be unbalancing are endless.

BT
MythMage
02-20-05, 12:52 PM I think I should also mention that the characters have to first know of the creature to summon it. I haven't decided for sure yet, but either they have to make a tough Knowledge (the planes) check to remember that a given creature exists, or else have to have seen it. If the character doesn't have experience with a given creature, he or she will not know much about it, even if he or she remembers it exists.

Do you really think it would get that bad with these restriction in place?
was_fired
02-20-05, 01:33 PM Yes
Oberoni
02-20-05, 01:57 PM MythMage, so you're saying that, for example, Summon Monster VIII (a spell that a 15th level caster could use) could summon, say, any creature with a CR of 8 or less?

Honestly, that doesn't sound too terribly scary, and I'd probably allow it.

However, to be safe, you should probably ask the player for some advance knowledge of what particular creatures they're looking at with the spell; if they've managed to find a creature that's just too cool for school, you could say that it's not allowable.
tarkin
02-20-05, 02:13 PM ANy creature of CR 8 or lower?

Wow. So you basically would allow the summoning of Formian Workers - Making Mages FAR better healers than Clerics

Been there, done that. In 3.0, the summon lists were suggestions. The DM was supposed to let you add to them pretty much at will.

It sucked. Summon spells became fantastically powerfull by allowing Mages to get the wierd creatures and abuse their strange powers.

If a DM is going to allow non-standard creatures he should carefully examine them for wierd abilities, such as unlimited healing first.

Letting players summon any monster is done only by an inexperienced DM.
ZombieTonyBlair
02-20-05, 08:04 PM The summon monster spell lists already allow mages to summon creatures that can heal, namely guardinals. Using book of exalted deeds rules you can have more options at different spell levels. Summoning things to heal is in no way as effiecient time or spell slot wise. Also, with the formian workers, you need around 8 or 12 (I can't remember the exact amount) to have them heal, which is more than you get from a summon monster spell, without metamagics included.
Oberoni
02-20-05, 08:18 PM ANy creature of CR 8 or lower?

Wow. So you basically would allow the summoning of Formian Workers - Making Mages FAR better healers than Clerics

:uh-huh:

Yeah, if you summon EIGHT of them, as ZombieTonyBlair said.

Don't mind Tarkin, folks. His hatred of non-Commoners is easily fought by using the actual rules.

However, while I won't go so far as to say that open summon lists are used by inexperienced (which is top-secret-code talk for 'sucky') DMs, I still say that a player should run potential summons candidates by the DM before the game begins, and moreso, he should state why he wants to summon a particular critter.

In most cases, I very sincerely doubt that an open summons list would break a game (or even come close), but it never hurts to be a bit cautious.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MythMage 02-18-05, 10:38 PM	I am considering allowing players to summon whatever extraplanar creatures that their character knows of with the summon monster spells, within the appropriate power level. Basically, the monster's CR simply has to be the same or less than the number of the summon monster spell. The CRs of standard summon monster monsters are really irregular, so they weren't much help. Please tell me what you think.
Seeker95 02-19-05, 08:11 AM	Dangerous. Players can come up with real cheese in the middle of a game. A slightly different take is to allow your players out of game to submit potential additions to the [i]summon monster[/]i list. That way, out-of-game, you-the-DM can evaluate the suggestions for balance. Your players know wht they can do, and you know what they might try to do.
Bloodtide_the_Red 02-20-05, 12:10 AM	It's a bad idea. There are way too many creatures out there. You realy don't want the players just summoning up the perfect monster for every encounter. The ways this can be unbalancing are endless. BT
MythMage 02-20-05, 12:52 PM	I think I should also mention that the characters have to first know of the creature to summon it. I haven't decided for sure yet, but either they have to make a tough Knowledge (the planes) check to remember that a given creature exists, or else have to have seen it. If the character doesn't have experience with a given creature, he or she will not know much about it, even if he or she remembers it exists. Do you really think it would get that bad with these restriction in place?
was_fired 02-20-05, 01:33 PM	Yes
Oberoni 02-20-05, 01:57 PM	MythMage, so you're saying that, for example, Summon Monster VIII (a spell that a 15th level caster could use) could summon, say, any creature with a CR of 8 or less? Honestly, that doesn't sound too terribly scary, and I'd probably allow it. However, to be safe, you should probably ask the player for some advance knowledge of what particular creatures they're looking at with the spell; if they've managed to find a creature that's just too cool for school, you could say that it's not allowable.
tarkin 02-20-05, 02:13 PM	ANy creature of CR 8 or lower? Wow. So you basically would allow the summoning of Formian Workers - Making Mages FAR better healers than Clerics Been there, done that. In 3.0, the summon lists were suggestions. The DM was supposed to let you add to them pretty much at will. It sucked. Summon spells became fantastically powerfull by allowing Mages to get the wierd creatures and abuse their strange powers. If a DM is going to allow non-standard creatures he should carefully examine them for wierd abilities, such as unlimited healing first. Letting players summon any monster is done only by an inexperienced DM.
ZombieTonyBlair 02-20-05, 08:04 PM	The summon monster spell lists already allow mages to summon creatures that can heal, namely guardinals. Using book of exalted deeds rules you can have more options at different spell levels. Summoning things to heal is in no way as effiecient time or spell slot wise. Also, with the formian workers, you need around 8 or 12 (I can't remember the exact amount) to have them heal, which is more than you get from a summon monster spell, without metamagics included.
Oberoni 02-20-05, 08:18 PM	ANy creature of CR 8 or lower? Wow. So you basically would allow the summoning of Formian Workers - Making Mages FAR better healers than Clerics :uh-huh: Yeah, if you summon EIGHT of them, as ZombieTonyBlair said. Don't mind Tarkin, folks. His hatred of non-Commoners is easily fought by using the actual rules. However, while I won't go so far as to say that open summon lists are used by inexperienced (which is top-secret-code talk for 'sucky') DMs, I still say that a player should run potential summons candidates by the DM before the game begins, and moreso, he should state why he wants to summon a particular critter. In most cases, I very sincerely doubt that an open summons list would break a game (or even come close), but it never hurts to be a bit cautious.