Balanced casting without preparation? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balanced casting without preparation? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thunderbulge
11-11-06, 02:23 AM I am a 12 year GM veteran (D&D 2nd Addition long ago and Shadowrun for 10 yrs) who just started D&Dv3.5, and my gamers and I hate having to choose spells before hand. I've been wracking my brains to figure out how to make the game totally balanced without having to keep track of which spells we can/cannot cast today. Out of 5 casters, only 1 has spontaneous casting abilities (a Favored Soul), so it might not impact my game much, but will eliminating spell prep. unfairly neuter or empower my bud's pure Wizard? Any help would greatly be appreciated!:):confused:
nepence
11-11-06, 04:48 AM Sorcerers, Bards, Warmages and Beguilers all cast spontaneous spells. Druids and Clerics can both ditch a spell to cast a different one instead, although the different one is specific, (SNA and cure wounds) There is a feat that allows you to have one spontaneous spell slot at any level. There are a fair few options available to you.
Lafing Cat
11-11-06, 05:22 AM There are options for Spontaneous Druids and Clerics in the SRD

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm

use those, and use sorcs instead of wizards.

Arcana Unearthed also has a magic system thats entirely spontaneous, the Spirit Shaman uses an almost identical mechanism.

The Sha'ir from Dragon Compendium is also an interesting spontaneous Arcane Caster. I've always wanted to play one.
KoboldDragoon
11-11-06, 10:43 AM Yes. Allowing a Wizard to cast spontaniously without the negative aspects of the Sorcerer class is insane.
PuckEau
11-16-06, 12:30 AM I came up with a house rule that may work for some, may not work for others and will probably upset a number of DM's :tongue:

We still adhere to the regular rules concerning arcane/divine spell selection and use. But if the party finds itself in a situation in which one particular spell that a spellcaster COULD know but doesn't have prepared would be useful, it can still be obtained.

I decided to expand upon the ritual that the cleric performs every day when he/she prepares his/her spells. The PHB says that the cleric should take an hour each day to regain his/her daily allotment of spells.

So I told my spellcasters (a cleric and extended to a duskblade) that, when necessary, they could perform this ritual again at any time to swap out any one spell on their prepared list for any other spell of the same level. They could then use that replacement spell as long as they have the appropriate spell slot remaining for that day's allotment.

Here are the drawbacks:
Performing this ritual again does NOT restore the daily allotment of spells until a full day has passed, in which case it would then be regarded as the regular ritual of the day.

Performing this ritual again will take an hour of game time and open up the party to attacks from wandering monsters, missed storyline opportunities, etc.

Performing this ritual again would not work very well in the heat of battle :rimshot:

Hope this gives you some ideas...

Game On!!! :cool:
Milo HoBo
11-16-06, 01:49 PM http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=700421

This or Otto the Bugbear's Mage are great alternatives if you like Wizard's.
chiefcastor
11-16-06, 01:58 PM There is always psionics.
belewda
11-16-06, 02:16 PM My DM has just adopted some new house rules. We're going to try them out this weekend and see how they go. They definitely make the wizard a bit more powerful, so be warned.

First, there are no sorcerers in his world. This is an artifact of some older house rules we used that hasn't been rectified. Spellcasters that prepare spells get to choose a number of spells each day equal to the number of spells per day they can cast (from their list of spells known). These spells can be cast in any combination a number of times equal to the number of spells of that level the wizard could normally cast. For example, a 1st level wizard who can cast 2 first level spells per day would choose 2 of his spells known when he prepared his spells, let's say sleep and mage armor. For that day, he can cast 2 first level spells and they have to be either sleep or mage armor but he can choose 2 sleeps, 2 mage armors, or 1 of each.

It's a blend of spontaneous and prepared casting.
Bester
11-16-06, 02:20 PM Do remember that a wizard may leave slots empty when he prepares his spells in the morning. These slots may then be filled later in the day by meditating again.After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If she wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of her daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.I also make a block chart for each character that prepares spells. This way, I can easily fill in each spell slot whenever my character prepares, and the other players have a record of my most common spells if I happen to miss a session. If you make a master copy, it takes only a few minutes (if that) to update each time a character levels.
Sphyre
11-16-06, 02:27 PM I'm personally a fan of basically making a new class that gives you an alternate flavor.

As your example, One could play a Favored soul as opposed to a cleric. This allows the players who want to play the cleric, to play one, without changing anything, while you have another class for those who want to play it. Overall, all it does is add an option that can be allowed or dissallowed with each game rather than having to decide "ok, how are we going to houserule preparation this time."

Of course, there's not always something picture perfect, like you want to be a cleric but you want to keep domain powers - ok, make something like that but make it balanced.

Really, the only time that you should make a sweeping change is if everyone's in favor of it. And if it affects everyone and everyone wants it, there's no real unfairness that comes out of it.
Thunderbulge
11-17-06, 02:28 PM Thank you for the many responses to my problem. Being that the casters we have are a duskblade, favored soul, druid and a wizard, we decided just to make the wizard bound by sorcerer rules when it comes to spell casting and attainment (we also eliminated the sorcerer as an npc class).

For the druid I used the alternate divine spell caster rules (which are almost identical to the sorcerer) provided in an earlier reply to this thread. I DID let the wiz keep all his lvl 0 spells however. Not really a big deal, I am generous to my other players as well. I'm letting both the fav soul and druid have domain powers with a little tweaking.

If it all is balanced in the end, I guess it really doesn't matter, right? The only thing I'd like to change is my underpowered Halfling Druid. His riding dog does more damage :) even when he is shapechanged! Still, I think he will be really fun to roleplay. I'm primarily using him as a spy/scout. Its not easy for most npc's to spot the lizard in the tree who is listening to all of their battle plans. :evillaugh
Deathmond
11-17-06, 05:07 PM Let me make sure I understand you...

You've made a sorcerer that gets extra feats while removing what's possibly the most valuable thing a wizard gets...the ability to have any spell he needs with a bit of preparation? To be honest it sounds like you just made a sorcerer trade in his large amount of spells per day for a few extra feats...unless you gave the 'wizard' more spells per day; in which case it really is just a sorcerer with extra feats.
Marix
11-17-06, 05:14 PM Heh.. here's this for an idea. Use a warlock, but downgrade the hit die, lose the armor, give him poor BAB, ditch the /cold iron DR, lose the UMD skill, toss out the fiendish resilience, keep the eldritch blast but make it go up to 10d6 at 20th lvl, and give the poor sap some extra invocations (like, oh, an extra one everytime they get an invocation at the appropriate levels) and then you have a spellcaster that doesn't need spellslots or prep time.

Just a thought...
Otto the Bugbear
11-17-06, 08:06 PM First things first. Thanks for the props for my system, MiloHobo. And yes, Milo's system is good too. It really depends upon which strikes a better chord with you comparing mine to his. You can find mine in my sig, complete with a lot of re-written classes.

Thank you for the many responses to my problem. Being that the casters we have are a duskblade, favored soul, druid and a wizard, we decided just to make the wizard bound by sorcerer rules when it comes to spell casting and attainment (we also eliminated the sorcer as an npc class).

For the druid I used the alternate divine spell caster rules (which are almost identical to the sorcerer) provided in an earlier reply to this thread. I DID let the wiz keep all his lvl 0 spells however. Not really a big deal, I am generous to my other players as well. I'm letting both the fav soul and druid have domain powers with a little tweaking.

If it all is balanced in the end, I guess it really doesn't matter, right? The only thing I'd like to change is my underpowered Halfling Druid. His riding dog does more damage :) even when he is shapechanged! Still, I think he will be really fun to roleplay. I'm primarily using him as a spy/scout. Its not easy for most npc's to spot the lizard in the tree who is listening to all of their battle plans. :evillaugh

Looks like you've discovered an easy work-around.

The other alternative would be based around the Spirit Shaman casting found in Complete Divine. Basically, they choose up to 3 spells of each spell level to "prepare" each day. Those spells are chosen from the entire druid spell list. After the spells are prepared, they are cast spontaneously. When the next day comes around, they can change what spells they have prepared.

And don't worry about all the people that are going to chime in with snide, snarky, or sarcastic comments about you eliminating vancian casting (that's what the prepare it, fire it, forget it casting system is typically called). If it works for your game, and your players are enjoying it, then no amount of complaints from those on a message board should sway you or your group.

Cheers

Otto :)
Thunderbulge
11-20-06, 03:44 PM Let me make sure I understand you...

You've made a sorcerer that gets extra feats while removing what's possibly the most valuable thing a wizard gets...the ability to have any spell he needs with a bit of preparation? To be honest it sounds like you just made a sorcerer trade in his large amount of spells per day for a few extra feats...unless you gave the 'wizard' more spells per day; in which case it really is just a sorcerer with extra feats.

You make a good point. Nothing is final yet (we have 12 characters to finish creating) and the sheer variety of spells a wizard can cast IS pretty cool. And yes, my bud's wiz is essentially a sorcerer with extra feats (including the extra spells per day). One of the main reasons we are doing it this way is because it means spell attainment/casting rules are almost identical for each character, and since none of us has played D&D since 1st or OLD 2nd ed., we really don't know what we are missing by eliminating vanican casting.

My DM style is a strong story-telling style. It is fluid and very realistic. We roll and make skill tests if it will strongly impact pc/npcs, but there are times in-game days go by where spellcasting is simply unnecessary. I keep my gamers in suspense, and it is an obvious tell when something dangerous is going to happen when I tell my casters to prep spells for today. I could tell them to prep them at random, even if they will not use them, but we all agree that it seems a waste of time. Spell prep would be cool if I literally ran my campaign day to day. Any additional suggestions are welcome (including criticisms :) ) Are we just making too big of a deal about spell prep?
Thunderbulge
11-20-06, 03:50 PM Heh.. here's this for an idea. Use a warlock, but downgrade the hit die, lose the armor, give him poor BAB, ditch the /cold iron DR, lose the UMD skill, toss out the fiendish resilience, keep the eldritch blast but make it go up to 10d6 at 20th lvl, and give the poor sap some extra invocations (like, oh, an extra one everytime they get an invocation at the appropriate levels) and then you have a spellcaster that doesn't need spellslots or prep time.

Just a thought...

So, are you saying that this is an undesirable build and is essentially what my new "wizard" is? Or are you offering your suggestion as a viable solution? It can be hard to tell because many people on these boards often use sarcasm in place of genuine helpfulness. Im not accussing you of this Marix, I just want to be clear.:)
Thunderbulge
11-20-06, 03:59 PM And don't worry about all the people that are going to chime in with snide, snarky, or sarcastic comments about you eliminating vancian casting (that's what the prepare it, fire it, forget it casting system is typically called). If it works for your game, and your players are enjoying it, then no amount of complaints from those on a message board should sway you or your group.

Cheers

Otto :)

No worries there, mate. I'm 28, and your three "S"es of behavior no longer bother me and are rightfully scoffed. I appreciate the help. Your reasoning for your alternate spellcasting system is exactly the same as mine. Good work. We may use it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thunderbulge 11-11-06, 02:23 AM	I am a 12 year GM veteran (D&D 2nd Addition long ago and Shadowrun for 10 yrs) who just started D&Dv3.5, and my gamers and I hate having to choose spells before hand. I've been wracking my brains to figure out how to make the game totally balanced without having to keep track of which spells we can/cannot cast today. Out of 5 casters, only 1 has spontaneous casting abilities (a Favored Soul), so it might not impact my game much, but will eliminating spell prep. unfairly neuter or empower my bud's pure Wizard? Any help would greatly be appreciated!:):confused:
nepence 11-11-06, 04:48 AM	Sorcerers, Bards, Warmages and Beguilers all cast spontaneous spells. Druids and Clerics can both ditch a spell to cast a different one instead, although the different one is specific, (SNA and cure wounds) There is a feat that allows you to have one spontaneous spell slot at any level. There are a fair few options available to you.
Lafing Cat 11-11-06, 05:22 AM	There are options for Spontaneous Druids and Clerics in the SRD http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm use those, and use sorcs instead of wizards. Arcana Unearthed also has a magic system thats entirely spontaneous, the Spirit Shaman uses an almost identical mechanism. The Sha'ir from Dragon Compendium is also an interesting spontaneous Arcane Caster. I've always wanted to play one.
KoboldDragoon 11-11-06, 10:43 AM	Yes. Allowing a Wizard to cast spontaniously without the negative aspects of the Sorcerer class is insane.
PuckEau 11-16-06, 12:30 AM	I came up with a house rule that may work for some, may not work for others and will probably upset a number of DM's :tongue: We still adhere to the regular rules concerning arcane/divine spell selection and use. But if the party finds itself in a situation in which one particular spell that a spellcaster COULD know but doesn't have prepared would be useful, it can still be obtained. I decided to expand upon the ritual that the cleric performs every day when he/she prepares his/her spells. The PHB says that the cleric should take an hour each day to regain his/her daily allotment of spells. So I told my spellcasters (a cleric and extended to a duskblade) that, when necessary, they could perform this ritual again at any time to swap out any one spell on their prepared list for any other spell of the same level. They could then use that replacement spell as long as they have the appropriate spell slot remaining for that day's allotment. Here are the drawbacks: Performing this ritual again does NOT restore the daily allotment of spells until a full day has passed, in which case it would then be regarded as the regular ritual of the day. Performing this ritual again will take an hour of game time and open up the party to attacks from wandering monsters, missed storyline opportunities, etc. Performing this ritual again would not work very well in the heat of battle :rimshot: Hope this gives you some ideas... Game On!!! :cool:
Milo HoBo 11-16-06, 01:49 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=700421 This or Otto the Bugbear's Mage are great alternatives if you like Wizard's.
chiefcastor 11-16-06, 01:58 PM	There is always psionics.
belewda 11-16-06, 02:16 PM	My DM has just adopted some new house rules. We're going to try them out this weekend and see how they go. They definitely make the wizard a bit more powerful, so be warned. First, there are no sorcerers in his world. This is an artifact of some older house rules we used that hasn't been rectified. Spellcasters that prepare spells get to choose a number of spells each day equal to the number of spells per day they can cast (from their list of spells known). These spells can be cast in any combination a number of times equal to the number of spells of that level the wizard could normally cast. For example, a 1st level wizard who can cast 2 first level spells per day would choose 2 of his spells known when he prepared his spells, let's say sleep and mage armor. For that day, he can cast 2 first level spells and they have to be either sleep or mage armor but he can choose 2 sleeps, 2 mage armors, or 1 of each. It's a blend of spontaneous and prepared casting.
Bester 11-16-06, 02:20 PM	Do remember that a wizard may leave slots empty when he prepares his spells in the morning. These slots may then be filled later in the day by meditating again.After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If she wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of her daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.I also make a block chart for each character that prepares spells. This way, I can easily fill in each spell slot whenever my character prepares, and the other players have a record of my most common spells if I happen to miss a session. If you make a master copy, it takes only a few minutes (if that) to update each time a character levels.
Sphyre 11-16-06, 02:27 PM	I'm personally a fan of basically making a new class that gives you an alternate flavor. As your example, One could play a Favored soul as opposed to a cleric. This allows the players who want to play the cleric, to play one, without changing anything, while you have another class for those who want to play it. Overall, all it does is add an option that can be allowed or dissallowed with each game rather than having to decide "ok, how are we going to houserule preparation this time." Of course, there's not always something picture perfect, like you want to be a cleric but you want to keep domain powers - ok, make something like that but make it balanced. Really, the only time that you should make a sweeping change is if everyone's in favor of it. And if it affects everyone and everyone wants it, there's no real unfairness that comes out of it.
Thunderbulge 11-17-06, 02:28 PM	Thank you for the many responses to my problem. Being that the casters we have are a duskblade, favored soul, druid and a wizard, we decided just to make the wizard bound by sorcerer rules when it comes to spell casting and attainment (we also eliminated the sorcerer as an npc class). For the druid I used the alternate divine spell caster rules (which are almost identical to the sorcerer) provided in an earlier reply to this thread. I DID let the wiz keep all his lvl 0 spells however. Not really a big deal, I am generous to my other players as well. I'm letting both the fav soul and druid have domain powers with a little tweaking. If it all is balanced in the end, I guess it really doesn't matter, right? The only thing I'd like to change is my underpowered Halfling Druid. His riding dog does more damage :) even when he is shapechanged! Still, I think he will be really fun to roleplay. I'm primarily using him as a spy/scout. Its not easy for most npc's to spot the lizard in the tree who is listening to all of their battle plans. :evillaugh
Deathmond 11-17-06, 05:07 PM	Let me make sure I understand you... You've made a sorcerer that gets extra feats while removing what's possibly the most valuable thing a wizard gets...the ability to have any spell he needs with a bit of preparation? To be honest it sounds like you just made a sorcerer trade in his large amount of spells per day for a few extra feats...unless you gave the 'wizard' more spells per day; in which case it really is just a sorcerer with extra feats.
Marix 11-17-06, 05:14 PM	Heh.. here's this for an idea. Use a warlock, but downgrade the hit die, lose the armor, give him poor BAB, ditch the /cold iron DR, lose the UMD skill, toss out the fiendish resilience, keep the eldritch blast but make it go up to 10d6 at 20th lvl, and give the poor sap some extra invocations (like, oh, an extra one everytime they get an invocation at the appropriate levels) and then you have a spellcaster that doesn't need spellslots or prep time. Just a thought...
Otto the Bugbear 11-17-06, 08:06 PM	First things first. Thanks for the props for my system, MiloHobo. And yes, Milo's system is good too. It really depends upon which strikes a better chord with you comparing mine to his. You can find mine in my sig, complete with a lot of re-written classes. Thank you for the many responses to my problem. Being that the casters we have are a duskblade, favored soul, druid and a wizard, we decided just to make the wizard bound by sorcerer rules when it comes to spell casting and attainment (we also eliminated the sorcer as an npc class). For the druid I used the alternate divine spell caster rules (which are almost identical to the sorcerer) provided in an earlier reply to this thread. I DID let the wiz keep all his lvl 0 spells however. Not really a big deal, I am generous to my other players as well. I'm letting both the fav soul and druid have domain powers with a little tweaking. If it all is balanced in the end, I guess it really doesn't matter, right? The only thing I'd like to change is my underpowered Halfling Druid. His riding dog does more damage :) even when he is shapechanged! Still, I think he will be really fun to roleplay. I'm primarily using him as a spy/scout. Its not easy for most npc's to spot the lizard in the tree who is listening to all of their battle plans. :evillaugh Looks like you've discovered an easy work-around. The other alternative would be based around the Spirit Shaman casting found in Complete Divine. Basically, they choose up to 3 spells of each spell level to "prepare" each day. Those spells are chosen from the entire druid spell list. After the spells are prepared, they are cast spontaneously. When the next day comes around, they can change what spells they have prepared. And don't worry about all the people that are going to chime in with snide, snarky, or sarcastic comments about you eliminating vancian casting (that's what the prepare it, fire it, forget it casting system is typically called). If it works for your game, and your players are enjoying it, then no amount of complaints from those on a message board should sway you or your group. Cheers Otto :)
Thunderbulge 11-20-06, 03:44 PM	Let me make sure I understand you... You've made a sorcerer that gets extra feats while removing what's possibly the most valuable thing a wizard gets...the ability to have any spell he needs with a bit of preparation? To be honest it sounds like you just made a sorcerer trade in his large amount of spells per day for a few extra feats...unless you gave the 'wizard' more spells per day; in which case it really is just a sorcerer with extra feats. You make a good point. Nothing is final yet (we have 12 characters to finish creating) and the sheer variety of spells a wizard can cast IS pretty cool. And yes, my bud's wiz is essentially a sorcerer with extra feats (including the extra spells per day). One of the main reasons we are doing it this way is because it means spell attainment/casting rules are almost identical for each character, and since none of us has played D&D since 1st or OLD 2nd ed., we really don't know what we are missing by eliminating vanican casting. My DM style is a strong story-telling style. It is fluid and very realistic. We roll and make skill tests if it will strongly impact pc/npcs, but there are times in-game days go by where spellcasting is simply unnecessary. I keep my gamers in suspense, and it is an obvious tell when something dangerous is going to happen when I tell my casters to prep spells for today. I could tell them to prep them at random, even if they will not use them, but we all agree that it seems a waste of time. Spell prep would be cool if I literally ran my campaign day to day. Any additional suggestions are welcome (including criticisms :) ) Are we just making too big of a deal about spell prep?
Thunderbulge 11-20-06, 03:50 PM	Heh.. here's this for an idea. Use a warlock, but downgrade the hit die, lose the armor, give him poor BAB, ditch the /cold iron DR, lose the UMD skill, toss out the fiendish resilience, keep the eldritch blast but make it go up to 10d6 at 20th lvl, and give the poor sap some extra invocations (like, oh, an extra one everytime they get an invocation at the appropriate levels) and then you have a spellcaster that doesn't need spellslots or prep time. Just a thought... So, are you saying that this is an undesirable build and is essentially what my new "wizard" is? Or are you offering your suggestion as a viable solution? It can be hard to tell because many people on these boards often use sarcasm in place of genuine helpfulness. Im not accussing you of this Marix, I just want to be clear.:)
Thunderbulge 11-20-06, 03:59 PM	And don't worry about all the people that are going to chime in with snide, snarky, or sarcastic comments about you eliminating vancian casting (that's what the prepare it, fire it, forget it casting system is typically called). If it works for your game, and your players are enjoying it, then no amount of complaints from those on a message board should sway you or your group. Cheers Otto :) No worries there, mate. I'm 28, and your three "S"es of behavior no longer bother me and are rightfully scoffed. I appreciate the help. Your reasoning for your alternate spellcasting system is exactly the same as mine. Good work. We may use it.