Balancing a rapid change of world magic level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balancing a rapid change of world magic level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xenu
09-02-04, 07:28 AM In one of the books, I think it’s PHB or DMG but I can’t find it right now, there is talk about different game world magic levels. Low level, where magic is rare, standard level, and then high magic lever where even the simplest commoner can cast spells.

Now, I have a little campaign idea. The world’s magic level suddenly change during a adventure that have nothing to do with what just happened to the world, and then the effects of the change and the cosmic events behind the change is a core part of following adventures. Don’t want to say more about the plotline here, in case my players read.

The issue I want to bring up here is how to balance the change. There are two balances that needs to be considered: game balance and gameworld balance. I don’t want to **** up the first, and I only want to **** up the later a little bit. Not like in my previous rapid change world where I gave everyone unlimited access to food and timber, thus annihilating the entire medieval economy and putting the farming 95% of the population out of business.

The thing that changes the world is, lets just call it “The Gift”. Everyone in the world (including all sentient monsters) get it, and each receiver gets the following benefits:

*Gain a certain language (both talk and read/write) as a free bonus language. In a Scarred Lands setting, this language would be Titanspeak: Mesos Dialect. In another setting, maybe draconic or elven. Some language strongly connected to magic.

*Learns four level 0 and two level 1 sorcerer spells. Cannot chose spells freely, see below.

*Gets to make five castings per day of known level 0 sorcerer spells. If charisma is 10 or higher, then also three known level 1 sorceror spells per day.

*Unknown spells on the “common” list below can now be learned as wizard spells by anyone of 10 or higher intelligence. These use the same spell slots as the spells cast as sorcerer, but have to be prepared. A slot prepared for a certain spell can only be used for that spell until the spell have been cast, the spell cannot be discarded to cast a sorcerer spell the same day.

*Wizard and sorcerer are now both bonus favored classes and avaiable classes. A individual who don’t have any levels in either counts as level one when caster levels are needed. If either class is taken then it starts at level one and progress normally. The spells gained from The Gift are bonus spells.

Now, I’m looking for input on two things. First, the general layout of The Gift, above. Second, what spells should be on what list. Both from the perspective of how it effect the game and from the perspective of how it effect the game world.

For example, if most people have “unseen servant”, would that cause hue unemployment in the cities? My take is that it wouldn’t, it would merely make people demand higher living standard. Also, only individuals of 11 charisma or greater can cast it, and the three or four daily castings will only give three hours of invisible servant.

There are three lists: Common, uncommon and forbidden. The common spells are the most commonly gained, and also the ones that can be learned as wizard spells without taking any levels in the wizard class. The uncommon spells are also sometimes gained from The Gift, while the forbidden ones require actual levels as sorcerer or wizard.

I’ll make my own list later. Lets first hear what you think. :)
Seeker95
09-02-04, 08:39 AM I really like this concept, and only the approach need a little more work (in my opinion). To keep things "semi-balanced" consider...
1. Everyone gains a number of cantrips. (I think you said five)
2. Without levels in wizard/sorcerer, you gain 1 1st level spell for every TWO points of Intelligence above 10. (The majority of commoners would not gain any, since their Intelligence will be under 12)
3. Make offensive spells very rare as part of the Gift.

My suggested "common" list:
0-level
Arcane Mark
Dancing Lights
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Flare
Ghost Sound
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Open/Close
Prestidigitation
Read Magic
Resistance

1st-level
Alarm
Animate Rope
Comprehend Languages
Detect Secret Doors
Detect Undead
Disguise Self
Endure Elements
Enlarge Person
Erase
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Grease
Hold Portal
Identify
Jump
Mage Armor
Mount
Nystul's Magic Aura
Obscuring Mist
Protection from Chaos
Protection from Evil
Protection from Good
Protection from Law
Reduce Person
Shield
Silent Image
Tenser's Floating Disk
Unseen Servant
JiobiValen
09-02-04, 08:47 AM An interesting idea. I think if you have a good story to go with it that it will go fine but lets look at each, oh and btw i'm seeing this as a "rush" of magic knowledge is that correct?

*Gain a certain language (both talk and read/write) as a free bonus language. In a Scarred Lands setting, this language would be Titanspeak: Mesos Dialect. In another setting, maybe draconic or elven. Some language strongly connected to magic.

This one is fine and in no way game breaking.

*Learns four level 0 and two level 1 sorcerer spells. Cannot chose spells freely, see below.

This is fine so long as everyone else is getting it anyway. I would give each individual spells based off their characters (or NPCs) personality.
Rogue minded - detect poison, hold portal, detect secret doors
Archer/ranger - mending, true strike
Standard adventurer who cares only about treasure, phat magic loot and runs away like a coward at the first sign of real danger - detect magic, light, identify, expeditious retreat.

*Gets to make five castings per day of known level 0 sorcerer spells. If charisma is 10 or higher, then also three known level 1 sorceror spells per day.

Just give them the same castings as a 1st level sorceror including any bonus they have from high charisma.

*Unknown spells on the “common” list below can now be learned as wizard spells by anyone of 10 or higher intelligence. These use the same spell slots as the spells cast as sorcerer, but have to be prepared. A slot prepared for a certain spell can only be used for that spell until the spell have been cast, the spell cannot be discarded to cast a sorcerer spell the same day.

not entirely sure if I grasp this. what do you mean they can "now" be learned? if it's already on the sor/wiz list this is redundant.
does this mean that a wizard prepares the ones he gets without his spellbook?

Now, I’m looking for input on two things. First, the general layout of The Gift, above. Second, what spells should be on what list. Both from the perspective of how it effect the game and from the perspective of how it effect the game world.

Well as far as a layout is concerned you might give four d100 rolls on the 0 list and two on the 1st list making what spells you get random. Your a lazy bum to not have a basic one up (:p). The world would definetly see some serious changes from certain spells provided by The Gift and need to be cropped off first into "forbidden" but times a wasting so i'm not putting anything up... yet. Anyway good luck to you and feel free to pm me maybe i'll be willing to help design the whole thing with you.
Xenu
09-02-04, 09:40 AM >>"An interesting idea. I think if you have a good story to go with it that it will go fine but lets look at each, oh and btw i'm seeing this as a "rush" of magic knowledge is that correct?"

Aye. A elder god makes a brief apperance for reasons of his own (and the regular Gods are most likely NOT at all happy about the whole deal) and blesses the whole world with The Gift.

In the Scarred Lands setting, this Elder God is the Titan Mesos. He once invented civilization and magic. He created many humanoid races, most likely including the Elfs. Maybe the humans as well. Eventually he was betrayed and assasinated by the Gods, who wanted to get rid of the Titans because of teh destructive aspects of their primordial nature. Mesos probably wasn't a threat to civilization like other titans, but he was the most powerful one and the one most likely to destroy the Gods. They dared not to try to win him over to their side like they did Denev (Mother Earth), much less meet him in honest battle. However, Titans cannot be destroyed. The essence of Mesos was spread throughtout creation. All magic is a part of him, and each time a arcane spell is cast he comes one step closer to once again manifest himself. This is why arcane magic generate heat in the Scarred Lands world.

In this scenario, Mesos do manage to manifest once more. However, he decide against starting a second Divine War (the first nearly destroyed all of creation). Instead, he chose to use a hit and run assault on the very structure of the universe. He suck all obtainable power into him, and then shatters himself over the universe once more. This time imbuing all sentient creatures with the gift of magic. His action leave him powerless but untouchable. The gift he left behind is designed to be beneficial for everyone, at least in the short term. Of course, it still holds true that his power increase each time a spell is cast....

>>"This is fine so long as everyone else is getting it anyway. "

Aye, except that certain spells could be very unbalancing. If every warrior in the world suddenly can cast True Strike three times per day, then it most definitly upsets both game balance and game world balance in a quite bloody way.

>>"Just give them the same castings as a 1st level sorceror including any bonus they have from high charisma."

Aye. That's what I did, so I should have said it that way instead.

>>"not entirely sure if I grasp this. what do you mean they can "now" be learned? if it's already on the sor/wiz list this is redundant."

Means that they can now be learned as if the character was a wizard, EVEN if he don't take any levels in the wizard class. If he do take a level in the (non-specialist) wizard class, then all level 0 and level 1 spells becomes avaiable to him.

Mesos goals with The Gift are:

*Improve the quality of life for everyone. (If this charity is altrusitic or if it is merely a ploy to gain power remains to be seen. There will be much disagreement about that.)

*Avoid creating disasters. Thus destructive and insulting spells should be left out. (Even if he is utterly selfish, he want the world to embrace his gift. The fewer who try to remove The Gift from the world, the better.)

*Encourage people to become real wizards and sorcerers. The Gift gives a taste of the power, and it also opens the way for further development. Anyone of 10 or higher int/cha can now become a real wizard/sorcerer, while especially sorcererhood was restricted to specially gifted individuals.

*Maximize the ammount of arcane spellcasting in the world. It everyone cast several spells every day, then Mesos will gain power faster then ever before.
Xenu
09-02-04, 10:04 AM So, here's my preliminary list.
considering moving some attack spells up to uncommon and mayve shield and/or mage armor to common. Protective spells would make people rely upon magic more. The question is how much it woudl affect game balance and game world balance. Moving something from uncommon to common is really a much larger issue then moving something from forbidden to uncommon.

Common
0
Read Magic (extremely common)
Detect Magic
Dancing lights (very common)
Light
Disrupt Undead
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Open/Close
Prestidigitation (extremely common)
1
Alarm
Endure elements (very common)
Mount (very common)
Unseen Servant (extremely common)
Comprehend Languages
Identify
Tenser’s Floating Disc
Silent Image
Animate Rope
Enlarge person
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Jump
Magic Weapon
Reduce Person

Edit: When I think of it, the "uncommon" and "forbidden" categories are redundant. Lets just have Common as the only category listed. The spells atat are not on the list are not on the list, simple as that. The DM can still let individual PC:s and NPC:s have such spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xenu 09-02-04, 07:28 AM	In one of the books, I think it’s PHB or DMG but I can’t find it right now, there is talk about different game world magic levels. Low level, where magic is rare, standard level, and then high magic lever where even the simplest commoner can cast spells. Now, I have a little campaign idea. The world’s magic level suddenly change during a adventure that have nothing to do with what just happened to the world, and then the effects of the change and the cosmic events behind the change is a core part of following adventures. Don’t want to say more about the plotline here, in case my players read. The issue I want to bring up here is how to balance the change. There are two balances that needs to be considered: game balance and gameworld balance. I don’t want to ** up the first, and I only want to ** up the later a little bit. Not like in my previous rapid change world where I gave everyone unlimited access to food and timber, thus annihilating the entire medieval economy and putting the farming 95% of the population out of business. The thing that changes the world is, lets just call it “The Gift”. Everyone in the world (including all sentient monsters) get it, and each receiver gets the following benefits: Gain a certain language (both talk and read/write) as a free bonus language. In a Scarred Lands setting, this language would be Titanspeak: Mesos Dialect. In another setting, maybe draconic or elven. Some language strongly connected to magic. Learns four level 0 and two level 1 sorcerer spells. Cannot chose spells freely, see below. Gets to make five castings per day of known level 0 sorcerer spells. If charisma is 10 or higher, then also three known level 1 sorceror spells per day. Unknown spells on the “common” list below can now be learned as wizard spells by anyone of 10 or higher intelligence. These use the same spell slots as the spells cast as sorcerer, but have to be prepared. A slot prepared for a certain spell can only be used for that spell until the spell have been cast, the spell cannot be discarded to cast a sorcerer spell the same day. *Wizard and sorcerer are now both bonus favored classes and avaiable classes. A individual who don’t have any levels in either counts as level one when caster levels are needed. If either class is taken then it starts at level one and progress normally. The spells gained from The Gift are bonus spells. Now, I’m looking for input on two things. First, the general layout of The Gift, above. Second, what spells should be on what list. Both from the perspective of how it effect the game and from the perspective of how it effect the game world. For example, if most people have “unseen servant”, would that cause hue unemployment in the cities? My take is that it wouldn’t, it would merely make people demand higher living standard. Also, only individuals of 11 charisma or greater can cast it, and the three or four daily castings will only give three hours of invisible servant. There are three lists: Common, uncommon and forbidden. The common spells are the most commonly gained, and also the ones that can be learned as wizard spells without taking any levels in the wizard class. The uncommon spells are also sometimes gained from The Gift, while the forbidden ones require actual levels as sorcerer or wizard. I’ll make my own list later. Lets first hear what you think. :)
Seeker95 09-02-04, 08:39 AM	I really like this concept, and only the approach need a little more work (in my opinion). To keep things "semi-balanced" consider... 1. Everyone gains a number of cantrips. (I think you said five) 2. Without levels in wizard/sorcerer, you gain 1 1st level spell for every TWO points of Intelligence above 10. (The majority of commoners would not gain any, since their Intelligence will be under 12) 3. Make offensive spells very rare as part of the Gift. My suggested "common" list: 0-level Arcane Mark Dancing Lights Detect Magic Detect Poison Flare Ghost Sound Light Mage Hand Mending Message Open/Close Prestidigitation Read Magic Resistance 1st-level Alarm Animate Rope Comprehend Languages Detect Secret Doors Detect Undead Disguise Self Endure Elements Enlarge Person Erase Expeditious Retreat Feather Fall Grease Hold Portal Identify Jump Mage Armor Mount Nystul's Magic Aura Obscuring Mist Protection from Chaos Protection from Evil Protection from Good Protection from Law Reduce Person Shield Silent Image Tenser's Floating Disk Unseen Servant
JiobiValen 09-02-04, 08:47 AM	An interesting idea. I think if you have a good story to go with it that it will go fine but lets look at each, oh and btw i'm seeing this as a "rush" of magic knowledge is that correct? Gain a certain language (both talk and read/write) as a free bonus language. In a Scarred Lands setting, this language would be Titanspeak: Mesos Dialect. In another setting, maybe draconic or elven. Some language strongly connected to magic. This one is fine and in no way game breaking. Learns four level 0 and two level 1 sorcerer spells. Cannot chose spells freely, see below. This is fine so long as everyone else is getting it anyway. I would give each individual spells based off their characters (or NPCs) personality. Rogue minded - detect poison, hold portal, detect secret doors Archer/ranger - mending, true strike Standard adventurer who cares only about treasure, phat magic loot and runs away like a coward at the first sign of real danger - detect magic, light, identify, expeditious retreat. Gets to make five castings per day of known level 0 sorcerer spells. If charisma is 10 or higher, then also three known level 1 sorceror spells per day. Just give them the same castings as a 1st level sorceror including any bonus they have from high charisma. Unknown spells on the “common” list below can now be learned as wizard spells by anyone of 10 or higher intelligence. These use the same spell slots as the spells cast as sorcerer, but have to be prepared. A slot prepared for a certain spell can only be used for that spell until the spell have been cast, the spell cannot be discarded to cast a sorcerer spell the same day. not entirely sure if I grasp this. what do you mean they can "now" be learned? if it's already on the sor/wiz list this is redundant. does this mean that a wizard prepares the ones he gets without his spellbook? Now, I’m looking for input on two things. First, the general layout of The Gift, above. Second, what spells should be on what list. Both from the perspective of how it effect the game and from the perspective of how it effect the game world. Well as far as a layout is concerned you might give four d100 rolls on the 0 list and two on the 1st list making what spells you get random. Your a lazy bum to not have a basic one up (:p). The world would definetly see some serious changes from certain spells provided by The Gift and need to be cropped off first into "forbidden" but times a wasting so i'm not putting anything up... yet. Anyway good luck to you and feel free to pm me maybe i'll be willing to help design the whole thing with you.
Xenu 09-02-04, 09:40 AM	>>"An interesting idea. I think if you have a good story to go with it that it will go fine but lets look at each, oh and btw i'm seeing this as a "rush" of magic knowledge is that correct?" Aye. A elder god makes a brief apperance for reasons of his own (and the regular Gods are most likely NOT at all happy about the whole deal) and blesses the whole world with The Gift. In the Scarred Lands setting, this Elder God is the Titan Mesos. He once invented civilization and magic. He created many humanoid races, most likely including the Elfs. Maybe the humans as well. Eventually he was betrayed and assasinated by the Gods, who wanted to get rid of the Titans because of teh destructive aspects of their primordial nature. Mesos probably wasn't a threat to civilization like other titans, but he was the most powerful one and the one most likely to destroy the Gods. They dared not to try to win him over to their side like they did Denev (Mother Earth), much less meet him in honest battle. However, Titans cannot be destroyed. The essence of Mesos was spread throughtout creation. All magic is a part of him, and each time a arcane spell is cast he comes one step closer to once again manifest himself. This is why arcane magic generate heat in the Scarred Lands world. In this scenario, Mesos do manage to manifest once more. However, he decide against starting a second Divine War (the first nearly destroyed all of creation). Instead, he chose to use a hit and run assault on the very structure of the universe. He suck all obtainable power into him, and then shatters himself over the universe once more. This time imbuing all sentient creatures with the gift of magic. His action leave him powerless but untouchable. The gift he left behind is designed to be beneficial for everyone, at least in the short term. Of course, it still holds true that his power increase each time a spell is cast.... >>"This is fine so long as everyone else is getting it anyway. " Aye, except that certain spells could be very unbalancing. If every warrior in the world suddenly can cast True Strike three times per day, then it most definitly upsets both game balance and game world balance in a quite bloody way. >>"Just give them the same castings as a 1st level sorceror including any bonus they have from high charisma." Aye. That's what I did, so I should have said it that way instead. >>"not entirely sure if I grasp this. what do you mean they can "now" be learned? if it's already on the sor/wiz list this is redundant." Means that they can now be learned as if the character was a wizard, EVEN if he don't take any levels in the wizard class. If he do take a level in the (non-specialist) wizard class, then all level 0 and level 1 spells becomes avaiable to him. Mesos goals with The Gift are: Improve the quality of life for everyone. (If this charity is altrusitic or if it is merely a ploy to gain power remains to be seen. There will be much disagreement about that.) Avoid creating disasters. Thus destructive and insulting spells should be left out. (Even if he is utterly selfish, he want the world to embrace his gift. The fewer who try to remove The Gift from the world, the better.) Encourage people to become real wizards and sorcerers. The Gift gives a taste of the power, and it also opens the way for further development. Anyone of 10 or higher int/cha can now become a real wizard/sorcerer, while especially sorcererhood was restricted to specially gifted individuals. Maximize the ammount of arcane spellcasting in the world. It everyone cast several spells every day, then Mesos will gain power faster then ever before.
Xenu 09-02-04, 10:04 AM	So, here's my preliminary list. considering moving some attack spells up to uncommon and mayve shield and/or mage armor to common. Protective spells would make people rely upon magic more. The question is how much it woudl affect game balance and game world balance. Moving something from uncommon to common is really a much larger issue then moving something from forbidden to uncommon. Common 0 Read Magic (extremely common) Detect Magic Dancing lights (very common) Light Disrupt Undead Mage Hand Mending Message Open/Close Prestidigitation (extremely common) 1 Alarm Endure elements (very common) Mount (very common) Unseen Servant (extremely common) Comprehend Languages Identify Tenser’s Floating Disc Silent Image Animate Rope Enlarge person Expeditious Retreat Feather Fall Jump Magic Weapon Reduce Person Edit: When I think of it, the "uncommon" and "forbidden" categories are redundant. Lets just have Common as the only category listed. The spells atat are not on the list are not on the list, simple as that. The DM can still let individual PC:s and NPC:s have such spells.