Balancing Polymorph [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balancing Polymorph [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kuros81
04-07-08, 04:53 PM Hi everyone,

I love the spell polymorph. Love. It. But my DM does not, and considers it imbalanced.

So rather than bicker over what is admittedly a powerful spell, I'm seeking to compromise with him by limiting it.

Here are some powerful aspects of polymorph:

An 8th level spellcaster can cast this on his familiar. Since a familiar has effectively the same HD as the caster, the familiar can now become, for example, a Dire Lion.

An 8th level spellcaster, behind his Dire Lion familiar, can now cast it again and become an Umber Hulk, gaining +7 natural armor, 10ft reach, and incredible STR and CON. The spellcaster may still cast spells.

I believe my DM may have a bad impression of polymorph, going back to the time where a Red Wizard transmuter character I played polymorphed his familiar into a wyvern, and then cast improved blink, mirror image, haste, and minor globe onto him. When you have minor globe plus polymorph, that takes at least two rounds to dispel.

My question is, how should we balance polymorph? My first suggestion to the DM was, the character has to have encountered the creature in game to polymorph into it. Knowledge (nature / arcana) checks should not be enough.

I welcome other suggestions.
Kerelis
04-07-08, 05:03 PM My inclination has always been to split Polymorph into separate shape spells, i. e., Wolf shape, Eagle shape, Dragon shape, Fiendform, Demon Shape, One-eyed, One-horned, Flying Purple People-eater Shape :D , etc.

This would retain some of the flavor of polymorph while limiting what casters can do with it.

I have always thought it a real mistake to basically give casters a free pass to turn into ANYTHING they wanted to.

However, Shapechange, as a 9th level spell, should remain unchanged.

If a caster wants to risk his familiar in battle by using polymorph self and affecting his familiar:devil:, I have no problem with that...."oops, that kobold just got a crit on the vorpal short sword he JUST happened to have...:
:rolleyes:
Kuros81
04-07-08, 05:50 PM Kerelis,

That's a good idea.

Polymorph allows: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin shapes.

So you could split it into 6 different spells:

Polymorph: Animal/vermin AKA Natural Morph

Polymorph: Humanoid (includes monstrous humanoids) AKA Racial Morph

Polymorph: Plant/ooze AKA Base Lifemorph

Polymorph: Giant/fey AKA Fantastical Morph

Polymorph: Aberration/Magical Beast AKA Bizarre Morph

Polymorph: Dragon AKA Dracomorph
NoldorForce
04-07-08, 08:41 PM How does one construct a balanced Polymorph? Generally by rewriting it from the ground up. Limiting it to single forms per spell makes it either potent or trash, depending on which form you take. Limiting it to classes (such as creature Types) per spell still leaves it rather powerful, as each class will likely have several good candidates to choose from.

Essentially, you'll want to grant benefits from a certain list of options; the bigger your CL and/or the spell level, the more options you can choose from at one time. Pinky's brain had a set of spells that did this, but that's since been removed.
Kuros81
04-07-08, 09:00 PM Essentially, you'll want to grant benefits from a certain list of options; the bigger your CL and/or the spell level, the more options you can choose from at one time. Pinky's brain had a set of spells that did this, but that's since been removed.

Could you expand on this? I'm not asking you to do the work for me, but I would like to see a rough example to get an idea of what you mean.
NoldorForce
04-07-08, 11:08 PM If the set of spells from Pinky's brain still existed, I'd be able to point you at them, but that's unfortunately not possible. So here's my collection of potential options from "Alter Self" (1st-tier version):
+4 to Strength. Each additional +2 counts as an additional option.
+4 to Dexterity, functioning as with Strength.
+4 to Constitution, functioning as with Strength.
Various movement speeds: flight (average), burrow, swim, climb. These should all be relatively slow (30' for flight, and 20' or less for the rest). Each additional +10' to a given movement counts as an additional option.
A single natural weapon (or two claws, which replace handheld weapons).

And so on and so forth. Higher-tier spells would grant new creature options (trip [as wolf], poison, constrict, improved grab, pounce, etc.), better versions of existing options (faster movement speeds, more agile flight, more natural weapons), or simply make additions to existing options (increasing an ability score grants +4 for the first/second/etc. additional options instead of +2). You'd probably grant a certain pool of options starting at some base value and rising based on your caster level; "Alter Self" might grant two options plus one per four CL. Higher-tier spells would increase both the initial pool and the options/CL ratio; thus "Shapechange" (final-tier version) might grant four options plus one per two CL.

It may be that those pools are still too large, and that they need to be capped at so many options for each spell. You'll likely have to experiment with it to produce something that works well for the campaign.
Tukka
04-07-08, 11:26 PM One set of potential adjustments can be found here (http://www.ucalgary.ca/~ammaster/d_n_d/PO.html). I got the link from chonjurer's post in the Problematic Spell (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=86768) thread.
NoldorForce
04-08-08, 01:23 AM That's better...but it still has issues.

Its power can vary depending on the creature you turn into; ability scores and natural armor aren't so giant, but other capabilities are largely retained.

Along the same lines, it still sort of requires the DM to balance a monster selection around the spell rather than the other way around. Sure, there's always "DM discretion" for determining familiarity, but that's a rather large burden for most folks to deal with.

Some of the restrictions are absurd; no Undead or Elemental forms because you aren't allowed a permanent connection to a Plane of Primal Substance?

Finally, it's based on the likely more unbalanced 3.0 spell Polymorph Other...which means that it has a permanent duration. Isn't this sort of thing exactly what people try to avoid when PAO is banned?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kuros81 04-07-08, 04:53 PM	Hi everyone, I love the spell polymorph. Love. It. But my DM does not, and considers it imbalanced. So rather than bicker over what is admittedly a powerful spell, I'm seeking to compromise with him by limiting it. Here are some powerful aspects of polymorph: An 8th level spellcaster can cast this on his familiar. Since a familiar has effectively the same HD as the caster, the familiar can now become, for example, a Dire Lion. An 8th level spellcaster, behind his Dire Lion familiar, can now cast it again and become an Umber Hulk, gaining +7 natural armor, 10ft reach, and incredible STR and CON. The spellcaster may still cast spells. I believe my DM may have a bad impression of polymorph, going back to the time where a Red Wizard transmuter character I played polymorphed his familiar into a wyvern, and then cast improved blink, mirror image, haste, and minor globe onto him. When you have minor globe plus polymorph, that takes at least two rounds to dispel. My question is, how should we balance polymorph? My first suggestion to the DM was, the character has to have encountered the creature in game to polymorph into it. Knowledge (nature / arcana) checks should not be enough. I welcome other suggestions.
Kerelis 04-07-08, 05:03 PM	My inclination has always been to split Polymorph into separate shape spells, i. e., Wolf shape, Eagle shape, Dragon shape, Fiendform, Demon Shape, One-eyed, One-horned, Flying Purple People-eater Shape :D , etc. This would retain some of the flavor of polymorph while limiting what casters can do with it. I have always thought it a real mistake to basically give casters a free pass to turn into ANYTHING they wanted to. However, Shapechange, as a 9th level spell, should remain unchanged. If a caster wants to risk his familiar in battle by using polymorph self and affecting his familiar:devil:, I have no problem with that...."oops, that kobold just got a crit on the vorpal short sword he JUST happened to have...: :rolleyes:
Kuros81 04-07-08, 05:50 PM	Kerelis, That's a good idea. Polymorph allows: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin shapes. So you could split it into 6 different spells: Polymorph: Animal/vermin AKA Natural Morph Polymorph: Humanoid (includes monstrous humanoids) AKA Racial Morph Polymorph: Plant/ooze AKA Base Lifemorph Polymorph: Giant/fey AKA Fantastical Morph Polymorph: Aberration/Magical Beast AKA Bizarre Morph Polymorph: Dragon AKA Dracomorph
NoldorForce 04-07-08, 08:41 PM	How does one construct a balanced Polymorph? Generally by rewriting it from the ground up. Limiting it to single forms per spell makes it either potent or trash, depending on which form you take. Limiting it to classes (such as creature Types) per spell still leaves it rather powerful, as each class will likely have several good candidates to choose from. Essentially, you'll want to grant benefits from a certain list of options; the bigger your CL and/or the spell level, the more options you can choose from at one time. Pinky's brain had a set of spells that did this, but that's since been removed.
Kuros81 04-07-08, 09:00 PM	Essentially, you'll want to grant benefits from a certain list of options; the bigger your CL and/or the spell level, the more options you can choose from at one time. Pinky's brain had a set of spells that did this, but that's since been removed. Could you expand on this? I'm not asking you to do the work for me, but I would like to see a rough example to get an idea of what you mean.
NoldorForce 04-07-08, 11:08 PM	If the set of spells from Pinky's brain still existed, I'd be able to point you at them, but that's unfortunately not possible. So here's my collection of potential options from "Alter Self" (1st-tier version): +4 to Strength. Each additional +2 counts as an additional option. +4 to Dexterity, functioning as with Strength. +4 to Constitution, functioning as with Strength. Various movement speeds: flight (average), burrow, swim, climb. These should all be relatively slow (30' for flight, and 20' or less for the rest). Each additional +10' to a given movement counts as an additional option. A single natural weapon (or two claws, which replace handheld weapons). And so on and so forth. Higher-tier spells would grant new creature options (trip [as wolf], poison, constrict, improved grab, pounce, etc.), better versions of existing options (faster movement speeds, more agile flight, more natural weapons), or simply make additions to existing options (increasing an ability score grants +4 for the first/second/etc. additional options instead of +2). You'd probably grant a certain pool of options starting at some base value and rising based on your caster level; "Alter Self" might grant two options plus one per four CL. Higher-tier spells would increase both the initial pool and the options/CL ratio; thus "Shapechange" (final-tier version) might grant four options plus one per two CL. It may be that those pools are still too large, and that they need to be capped at so many options for each spell. You'll likely have to experiment with it to produce something that works well for the campaign.
Tukka 04-07-08, 11:26 PM	One set of potential adjustments can be found here (http://www.ucalgary.ca/~ammaster/d_n_d/PO.html). I got the link from chonjurer's post in the Problematic Spell (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=86768) thread.
NoldorForce 04-08-08, 01:23 AM	That's better...but it still has issues. Its power can vary depending on the creature you turn into; ability scores and natural armor aren't so giant, but other capabilities are largely retained. Along the same lines, it still sort of requires the DM to balance a monster selection around the spell rather than the other way around. Sure, there's always "DM discretion" for determining familiarity, but that's a rather large burden for most folks to deal with. Some of the restrictions are absurd; no Undead or Elemental forms because you aren't allowed a permanent connection to a Plane of Primal Substance? Finally, it's based on the likely more unbalanced 3.0 spell Polymorph Other...which means that it has a permanent duration. Isn't this sort of thing exactly what people try to avoid when PAO is banned?