Balancing Wish and Miracle [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balancing Wish and Miracle [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
syrinth
08-08-06, 02:58 AM Hey everyone. A major problem I've had with Miracle and Wish is that Wish, by default, takes XP but Miracle only requires it when you start going into the crazy miracles.

I'm planning to balance the two of them and so I was wondering what the better idea would be, to make Wish cost XP the same way as Miracle or to make Miracle cost XP the same way as Wish.

Thanks for your opinions.

BTW: If you had only 1 9th level spell to choose woould you pick Wish or Time Stop assuming you were a gish character? I'm really torn between the two of them >.<
SamiPeikko
08-08-06, 03:38 AM Well, it depends how you want those spells to be used.
If you want Miracle and Wish to be something like Greatest Anyspell, do it the Miracle way, but if you want no-one to prepare them without prior commitment to huge XP loss, go the Wish way.

However, Wish and Miracle are not equal. Also remember that clerics may have Miracle as a domain spell.

What I recommend after some consideration, is that you change Wish, so that recreating a spell effect does not cost any additional XP, but caster has to provide any material component with value over 100gp.

After this you will have 2 kinds of Wish scrolls: those for duplicating spells only, costing considerably less, and those for other uses, loaded with 5000XP. It is up to you wich version is required to learn the spell.
syrinth
08-08-06, 03:41 AM Yeah, I was personally thinking about doing it that way too but I have a bias towards arcane magic, since I'm love the stuff, and I want to make sure that my bias doesn't get involved in my rulings. :D

Anyone else?
SamiPeikko
08-08-06, 04:21 AM Just something else to give you some perspective. In our long campaign ( 3.0ed now at lvl 19), my cleric has Luck domain, among others. His choise for 9th level domain spell is between Miracle, Foresight and Astral Projection (last has never been used). He usually prepares 2-3 Miracles each day, and uses them to duplicate the weirdest spells from any sourcebooks available.

On the other hand, our Wizard is not interested to learn Wish spell at all. But he has for a long time adverticed that he would be willing to buy 1-2 Wish scrolls fo rising his stats. Those scrolls are extremely rare in the campaign beacuse of the XP cost for making them, and because most other mages in the world also think learnig Wish spell is waste of time because of XP cost for casting it.

So, how I see it, Wish spell as it is written, is not very usefull. It is something only NPC:s or self-sacrficing heroes would want to take.
On the other hand Miracle now allows cheap acces to any spell at lvl 7 or below. Including for example all Paladin, Bard, Blackguard and Assassin spells. From all supplements. Quite miraculous, eh?
ElIsRa
08-08-06, 04:46 AM I personally like Wish but, it is all too easy to subvert the exp cost with a little planning and a couple of 8th level spells. I usually learn Wish out of respect for its 2nd ed ancestor and then let it collect dust on my shelf.
Alric
08-08-06, 05:11 AM It doesn't really need to be balanced. The only real difference is that a miracle can be switched to cast another spell instead for free but that fits in with clerics since they can switch spells already(cure). There isn't a 9th level cure spell so they get miracle instead, seems fair to me. Of course wish is a more powerful spell however. It may not come up that often but your god can refuse your miracle(you still lose the xp) and if it was something important in the middle of combat your probably dead. A wish you can do whatever you want though.
runestar
08-08-06, 05:23 AM Note that miracle requires the permission of your dm, and so you may not always get the effect you want, even if it is within the guidelines of the spell, while for wish, you will always get what you wish for, that's why it has the xp cost.
CaoSlayer
08-08-06, 05:29 AM Still the real trouble with wish it is the fixed price for everything, you spend 5000xp ever if you wish a cantrip...

IMO the solution to the trouble it is to make the wish xp price vary with the thing you are wishing for, so by example you can rule no xp cost for spells of 3rd level or lower and then 1000xp per spell level beyond 3, so we can use level 4 spells with a cost of 1000xp and level 8 spells with 5000xp.

Wish spell power shouldnt have limits in my opinion, just that the xp cost should be related to the thing you are wishing for.. a kind of permanency ruling.
shruggar
08-08-06, 07:13 AM I see it the other way around: Wish should always have the XP cost, no matter what you use it for, but should be able to reproduce effects from any spell 0-9th level, no matter if it is a forbidden school or not on your list (maybe only 8th if it is not on your list).
Miracle comes from a divine source. God pays the XP.

.. And Animate Objects should be a Wizard spell so I dont need to Wish in order to cast it ;)
Sapp
08-08-06, 07:40 AM Choosing between Wish and Time Stop...

It really depends on what character you're playing. If you're playing a Mystic Theurge or Cerebremancer, then I'd go for Time Stop if I were you.

I don't mind losing Wish as much when I've Miracle and/or Reality Revision to partially cover for it. Sudden Extended, Empowered, Maximized Time Stop is too good to resist. (Though I never reached the level for it to matter... imagine Extended Intensified Time Stop. 20 rounds...)

Though if you're a Psion(Telepath) Temporal Acceleration is just as good as Time Stop anyway. Someone posted a pretty neat trick using Schism and the Psicrystal Containment feat to allow the schism mind to gain psionic focus for you (as a move action). You waste no time gaining psionic focus to Extend augmented Temporal Accelerations. An extended augmented temporal acceleration is 4 free rounds, cast as a swift action. That is the equivalent to a maximized Time Stop (because time stop is not swift).

If you were just a vanilla arcane caster, you would be able to get both... this wouldn't even be a problem.

So what exactly are you playing?
syrinth
08-08-06, 02:27 PM Gish character, sorcerer8/fighter1/spellsword1/eldritch knight 10

Hmmm, any more suggestions?
tarkin
08-08-06, 02:53 PM The simplest way to balance wish and miracle is to realize that Miracle does NOT have the same wording as Wish does.

Instead after a short (and rather restricted list of free things), it states:

Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request.
...
In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused.

The power of Miracle is entirely dependent on the The DM's judgement of what the nature of the deity/alignment allows.

Yes, you can go around saying that Deity is helpfull and lets you do anything a Wish says.

Or you could state that the only things a God of Strength will grant (besides the freebee stuff) are directly related to Strength. Then, even paying the XP, that God's miracles would not be able to raise any stat except Strength, not be capable of making any non-magical item except from the single strongest material in existence, not be capable of making any magical item aside from strength boosting items/weakening items., etc. etc.

Miracle is a DM judgment based spell. If it is unbalanced, then adjust your judgment, not the spell itself.
Alric
08-08-06, 05:53 PM If your that powerful and your using a 9th level spell slot for a cantrip you have serious problems. Its just like any other spells, you can't switch power word kill for another spell so why should you be able to with wish? The only reason you think you should be able to is because your comparing it to a different spell from a different class.
camble
08-08-06, 06:33 PM Make a new 9th level arcane spell that can mimic other spells then and call it happy. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
syrinth 08-08-06, 02:58 AM	Hey everyone. A major problem I've had with Miracle and Wish is that Wish, by default, takes XP but Miracle only requires it when you start going into the crazy miracles. I'm planning to balance the two of them and so I was wondering what the better idea would be, to make Wish cost XP the same way as Miracle or to make Miracle cost XP the same way as Wish. Thanks for your opinions. BTW: If you had only 1 9th level spell to choose woould you pick Wish or Time Stop assuming you were a gish character? I'm really torn between the two of them >.<
SamiPeikko 08-08-06, 03:38 AM	Well, it depends how you want those spells to be used. If you want Miracle and Wish to be something like Greatest Anyspell, do it the Miracle way, but if you want no-one to prepare them without prior commitment to huge XP loss, go the Wish way. However, Wish and Miracle are not equal. Also remember that clerics may have Miracle as a domain spell. What I recommend after some consideration, is that you change Wish, so that recreating a spell effect does not cost any additional XP, but caster has to provide any material component with value over 100gp. After this you will have 2 kinds of Wish scrolls: those for duplicating spells only, costing considerably less, and those for other uses, loaded with 5000XP. It is up to you wich version is required to learn the spell.
syrinth 08-08-06, 03:41 AM	Yeah, I was personally thinking about doing it that way too but I have a bias towards arcane magic, since I'm love the stuff, and I want to make sure that my bias doesn't get involved in my rulings. :D Anyone else?
SamiPeikko 08-08-06, 04:21 AM	Just something else to give you some perspective. In our long campaign ( 3.0ed now at lvl 19), my cleric has Luck domain, among others. His choise for 9th level domain spell is between Miracle, Foresight and Astral Projection (last has never been used). He usually prepares 2-3 Miracles each day, and uses them to duplicate the weirdest spells from any sourcebooks available. On the other hand, our Wizard is not interested to learn Wish spell at all. But he has for a long time adverticed that he would be willing to buy 1-2 Wish scrolls fo rising his stats. Those scrolls are extremely rare in the campaign beacuse of the XP cost for making them, and because most other mages in the world also think learnig Wish spell is waste of time because of XP cost for casting it. So, how I see it, Wish spell as it is written, is not very usefull. It is something only NPC:s or self-sacrficing heroes would want to take. On the other hand Miracle now allows cheap acces to any spell at lvl 7 or below. Including for example all Paladin, Bard, Blackguard and Assassin spells. From all supplements. Quite miraculous, eh?
ElIsRa 08-08-06, 04:46 AM	I personally like Wish but, it is all too easy to subvert the exp cost with a little planning and a couple of 8th level spells. I usually learn Wish out of respect for its 2nd ed ancestor and then let it collect dust on my shelf.
Alric 08-08-06, 05:11 AM	It doesn't really need to be balanced. The only real difference is that a miracle can be switched to cast another spell instead for free but that fits in with clerics since they can switch spells already(cure). There isn't a 9th level cure spell so they get miracle instead, seems fair to me. Of course wish is a more powerful spell however. It may not come up that often but your god can refuse your miracle(you still lose the xp) and if it was something important in the middle of combat your probably dead. A wish you can do whatever you want though.
runestar 08-08-06, 05:23 AM	Note that miracle requires the permission of your dm, and so you may not always get the effect you want, even if it is within the guidelines of the spell, while for wish, you will always get what you wish for, that's why it has the xp cost.
CaoSlayer 08-08-06, 05:29 AM	Still the real trouble with wish it is the fixed price for everything, you spend 5000xp ever if you wish a cantrip... IMO the solution to the trouble it is to make the wish xp price vary with the thing you are wishing for, so by example you can rule no xp cost for spells of 3rd level or lower and then 1000xp per spell level beyond 3, so we can use level 4 spells with a cost of 1000xp and level 8 spells with 5000xp. Wish spell power shouldnt have limits in my opinion, just that the xp cost should be related to the thing you are wishing for.. a kind of permanency ruling.
shruggar 08-08-06, 07:13 AM	I see it the other way around: Wish should always have the XP cost, no matter what you use it for, but should be able to reproduce effects from any spell 0-9th level, no matter if it is a forbidden school or not on your list (maybe only 8th if it is not on your list). Miracle comes from a divine source. God pays the XP. .. And Animate Objects should be a Wizard spell so I dont need to Wish in order to cast it ;)
Sapp 08-08-06, 07:40 AM	Choosing between Wish and Time Stop... It really depends on what character you're playing. If you're playing a Mystic Theurge or Cerebremancer, then I'd go for Time Stop if I were you. I don't mind losing Wish as much when I've Miracle and/or Reality Revision to partially cover for it. Sudden Extended, Empowered, Maximized Time Stop is too good to resist. (Though I never reached the level for it to matter... imagine Extended Intensified Time Stop. 20 rounds...) Though if you're a Psion(Telepath) Temporal Acceleration is just as good as Time Stop anyway. Someone posted a pretty neat trick using Schism and the Psicrystal Containment feat to allow the schism mind to gain psionic focus for you (as a move action). You waste no time gaining psionic focus to Extend augmented Temporal Accelerations. An extended augmented temporal acceleration is 4 free rounds, cast as a swift action. That is the equivalent to a maximized Time Stop (because time stop is not swift). If you were just a vanilla arcane caster, you would be able to get both... this wouldn't even be a problem. So what exactly are you playing?
syrinth 08-08-06, 02:27 PM	Gish character, sorcerer8/fighter1/spellsword1/eldritch knight 10 Hmmm, any more suggestions?
tarkin 08-08-06, 02:53 PM	The simplest way to balance wish and miracle is to realize that Miracle does NOT have the same wording as Wish does. Instead after a short (and rather restricted list of free things), it states: Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. ... In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused. The power of Miracle is entirely dependent on the The DM's judgement of what the nature of the deity/alignment allows. Yes, you can go around saying that Deity is helpfull and lets you do anything a Wish says. Or you could state that the only things a God of Strength will grant (besides the freebee stuff) are directly related to Strength. Then, even paying the XP, that God's miracles would not be able to raise any stat except Strength, not be capable of making any non-magical item except from the single strongest material in existence, not be capable of making any magical item aside from strength boosting items/weakening items., etc. etc. Miracle is a DM judgment based spell. If it is unbalanced, then adjust your judgment, not the spell itself.
Alric 08-08-06, 05:53 PM	If your that powerful and your using a 9th level spell slot for a cantrip you have serious problems. Its just like any other spells, you can't switch power word kill for another spell so why should you be able to with wish? The only reason you think you should be able to is because your comparing it to a different spell from a different class.
camble 08-08-06, 06:33 PM	Make a new 9th level arcane spell that can mimic other spells then and call it happy. :)