Baleful Polymorph error? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Baleful Polymorph error? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NullAshton
06-15-06, 05:51 PM Baleful Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm)

You know, I can't help but notice... THERE'S NO HITDIE LIMIT!
Purkake
06-15-06, 05:59 PM OH my god. *jumps around like crazy* there really isn't.

Should there be one?
tarkin
06-15-06, 06:00 PM I believe the SRD left off a key limitation found in the actual PHB. It said something about restricting it to weak creatures of some kind.

Without some kind of limit, you could use it turn your 10th level friend into a Solar

Of course, if he failed his save he would lose his memories, but he would still be an Solar.
Wonton2006
06-15-06, 06:52 PM It says "As polymorph, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD (such as a dog, lizard, monkey, or toad). If the new form would prove fatal to the creature (for example, if you polymorphed a landbound target into a fish, or a flying target into a toad), the subject gets a +4 on the save."

In fact.... the SRD description is messed up. Severely. VERY VERY severely.
wellofworlds
06-15-06, 07:17 PM I begged a old dm to turn me into a "Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog " during 3.0
Erak
06-15-06, 07:17 PM That's not the official SRD.
tarkin
06-15-06, 08:30 PM No, it's official Player's Handbook.

They left out key information from the SRD, thinking it was "fluff".
ArcTan
06-16-06, 03:45 AM No, actually, I think this is because of the sweeping _polymorph_ errata sent down from on high, which simply excised all sentences that mentioned _polymorph_ in other spells wholesale, including _baleful polymorph_.

Apparently Wizards didn't write a new sentence to replace that "As _polymorph_" sentence, so it's just been left in limbo. I'm surprised they didn't delete the word "polymorph" from the spell name, leaving it just _baleful_ or _baleful CENSORED_, so ruthless and cruel were they in slashing out the poor little word "polymorph" from everything. It seriously has just skipped right on to the second paragraph of the PHB description.

All we know now is that whatever _baleful CENSORED_ does, it does with a certain saving throw and certain limitations, but we aren't told exactly what. Which, yes, is stupid and will hopefully be fixed soon.

Frankly, I'm not a big fan of the _polymorph_ fix -- I liked _polymorph_ the way it was, and don't see why it's such hard work for a DM to "fix" _polymorph_ by allowing or disallowing monsters on a case-by-case basis -- but I especially don't like what they did to _baleful polymorph_, which was to effectively make it a somewhat more powerful spell by changing the ruling about Fort and Will saves under our noses while doing this whole excise-polymorph business.

Not only does _baleful polymorph_ lose one of its important limitations -- the fact that a high-Will-save character keeps all its mental faculties including, possibly, spellcasting or psionics or the use of magical devices -- and now is effectively a Fort-save-only spell, but it now forces you to go through the contradictory and confusing process of deciding how someone who *makes* his Will save -- and should, in theory, be rewarded for this -- can maintain his former personality, his ability to speak language, and all that jazz WHEN HIS INTELLIGENCE SCORE IS NOW 1.

A sparrow with his old Int, Wis and Cha scores who was still the old wizard on the inside made sense. A sparrow who's just as stupid as a sparrow but still the old wizard on the inside really doesn't make sense -- if you really think about it, that makes it merely a technicality that he's still the old wizard inside, given that while he can "understand language" he's incapable of holding basic concepts like "I'm polymorphed" or "That guy is my former henchman" or "This window made of glass and closed, not open" in his head anymore.
jaelis
06-16-06, 10:51 AM The PHB errata for Baleful Poly says

You change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD such as a dog, lizard, monkey, or toad).

The official SRD on the WoTC site says

As polymorph, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD.

What is the issue?
Merestil Haye
06-16-06, 11:19 AM That's not the official SRD.No, it's better.

The SRD available from the Wizards website does not incorporate either the second or third Players Handbook errata files.

For example, Wild ShapeWild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.The latest errata changes the basis from Polymorph to Alternate Form.

Righteous MightYour height immediately doubles, and your weight increases by a factor of eight. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one, and you gain a +8 size bonus to Strength and a +4 size bonus to Constitution. You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to your natural armor. You gain damage reduction 5/evil (if you normally channel positive energy) or damage reduction 5/good (if you normally channel negative energy). At 12th level this damage reduction becomes 10/evil or 10/good, and at 15th level it becomes 15/evil or 15/good (the maximum).The second errata file (issued in September 2004) halved the Str, Con and Natural Armour bonuses, and reduced the DR to 3, 6 or 9.

Divine FavourCalling upon the strength and wisdom of a deity, you gain a +1 luck bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls for every three caster levels you have (at least +1, maximum +6).Capped to +3 by the second PHB errata file.

In short, you don't use the Wizards SRD because they don't bother to update it with the latest errata, and have not been doing so for nearly two years.

@ Jaelis : The issue is that a third party SRD site (NullAshton linked to the page in his OP) has updated its text to incorporate the third PHB errata file and has made a cut and paste mistake, missing out the first sentence of the revised spell description for Baleful Polymorph. I've dropped the site maintainer an email to draw his attention to the problem.

Added : The spell text on the site's been updated and now includes the missing line.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NullAshton 06-15-06, 05:51 PM	Baleful Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm) You know, I can't help but notice... THERE'S NO HITDIE LIMIT!
Purkake 06-15-06, 05:59 PM	OH my god. jumps around like crazy there really isn't. Should there be one?
tarkin 06-15-06, 06:00 PM	I believe the SRD left off a key limitation found in the actual PHB. It said something about restricting it to weak creatures of some kind. Without some kind of limit, you could use it turn your 10th level friend into a Solar Of course, if he failed his save he would lose his memories, but he would still be an Solar.
Wonton2006 06-15-06, 06:52 PM	It says "As polymorph, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD (such as a dog, lizard, monkey, or toad). If the new form would prove fatal to the creature (for example, if you polymorphed a landbound target into a fish, or a flying target into a toad), the subject gets a +4 on the save." In fact.... the SRD description is messed up. Severely. VERY VERY severely.
wellofworlds 06-15-06, 07:17 PM	I begged a old dm to turn me into a "Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog " during 3.0
Erak 06-15-06, 07:17 PM	That's not the official SRD.
tarkin 06-15-06, 08:30 PM	No, it's official Player's Handbook. They left out key information from the SRD, thinking it was "fluff".
ArcTan 06-16-06, 03:45 AM	No, actually, I think this is because of the sweeping _polymorph_ errata sent down from on high, which simply excised all sentences that mentioned _polymorph_ in other spells wholesale, including _baleful polymorph_. Apparently Wizards didn't write a new sentence to replace that "As _polymorph_" sentence, so it's just been left in limbo. I'm surprised they didn't delete the word "polymorph" from the spell name, leaving it just _baleful_ or _baleful CENSORED_, so ruthless and cruel were they in slashing out the poor little word "polymorph" from everything. It seriously has just skipped right on to the second paragraph of the PHB description. All we know now is that whatever _baleful CENSORED_ does, it does with a certain saving throw and certain limitations, but we aren't told exactly what. Which, yes, is stupid and will hopefully be fixed soon. Frankly, I'm not a big fan of the _polymorph_ fix -- I liked _polymorph_ the way it was, and don't see why it's such hard work for a DM to "fix" _polymorph_ by allowing or disallowing monsters on a case-by-case basis -- but I especially don't like what they did to _baleful polymorph_, which was to effectively make it a somewhat more powerful spell by changing the ruling about Fort and Will saves under our noses while doing this whole excise-polymorph business. Not only does _baleful polymorph_ lose one of its important limitations -- the fact that a high-Will-save character keeps all its mental faculties including, possibly, spellcasting or psionics or the use of magical devices -- and now is effectively a Fort-save-only spell, but it now forces you to go through the contradictory and confusing process of deciding how someone who makes his Will save -- and should, in theory, be rewarded for this -- can maintain his former personality, his ability to speak language, and all that jazz WHEN HIS INTELLIGENCE SCORE IS NOW 1. A sparrow with his old Int, Wis and Cha scores who was still the old wizard on the inside made sense. A sparrow who's just as stupid as a sparrow but still the old wizard on the inside really doesn't make sense -- if you really think about it, that makes it merely a technicality that he's still the old wizard inside, given that while he can "understand language" he's incapable of holding basic concepts like "I'm polymorphed" or "That guy is my former henchman" or "This window made of glass and closed, not open" in his head anymore.
jaelis 06-16-06, 10:51 AM	The PHB errata for Baleful Poly says You change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD such as a dog, lizard, monkey, or toad). The official SRD on the WoTC site says As polymorph, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD. What is the issue?
Merestil Haye 06-16-06, 11:19 AM	That's not the official SRD.No, it's better. The SRD available from the Wizards website does not incorporate either the second or third Players Handbook errata files. For example, Wild ShapeWild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.The latest errata changes the basis from Polymorph to Alternate Form. Righteous MightYour height immediately doubles, and your weight increases by a factor of eight. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one, and you gain a +8 size bonus to Strength and a +4 size bonus to Constitution. You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to your natural armor. You gain damage reduction 5/evil (if you normally channel positive energy) or damage reduction 5/good (if you normally channel negative energy). At 12th level this damage reduction becomes 10/evil or 10/good, and at 15th level it becomes 15/evil or 15/good (the maximum).The second errata file (issued in September 2004) halved the Str, Con and Natural Armour bonuses, and reduced the DR to 3, 6 or 9. Divine FavourCalling upon the strength and wisdom of a deity, you gain a +1 luck bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls for every three caster levels you have (at least +1, maximum +6).Capped to +3 by the second PHB errata file. In short, you don't use the Wizards SRD because they don't bother to update it with the latest errata, and have not been doing so for nearly two years. @ Jaelis : The issue is that a third party SRD site (NullAshton linked to the page in his OP) has updated its text to incorporate the third PHB errata file and has made a cut and paste mistake, missing out the first sentence of the revised spell description for Baleful Polymorph. I've dropped the site maintainer an email to draw his attention to the problem. Added : The spell text on the site's been updated and now includes the missing line.