Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilVegan 03-27-05, 02:28 PM	If you fail the fort save and make the will save on Baleful Polymorph, can you still talk? Reference: awaken, "Willow" (Fin Razel), "Emperor's New Groove" (Kuzko, et al). I'm saying that yes, you can talk if you make the will save. I treat them as awakened animals.
EvilVegan 03-27-05, 02:39 PM	Side note, what if someone casts awaken ON an animal that used to be a high-level PC?!
Egres 03-27-05, 02:58 PM	If you fail the fort save and make the will save on Baleful Polymorph, can you still talk? Reference: awaken, "Willow" (Fin Razel), "Emperor's New Groove" (Kuzko, et al). I'm saying that yes, you can talk if you make the will save. I treat them as awakened animals. If you Polymorph into an animal with the Polymorph spell you retain your mentals stats but you can't talk. Why should you retain your talking ability if subject to Baleful Polymorph?
unusualsuspect 03-27-05, 04:02 PM	because if you fail your fort save but succeed on your will save, YOUR MENTAL STATS DON'T CHANGE.
Drachasor 03-27-05, 04:09 PM	because if you fail your fort save but succeed on your will save, YOUR MENTAL STATS DON'T CHANGE. That doesn't change your body to handle human speech, however. Hey, you can still write out things in the dirt....unless you are illiterate. -Drachasor
Seeker95 03-27-05, 04:23 PM	because if you fail your fort save but succeed on your will save, YOUR MENTAL STATS DON'T CHANGE.Your mental stats don't change with a regular polymorph either, and you still can't talk in your new form if it doesn't have speech to begin with.
Santrilla 03-27-05, 04:30 PM	Speech isn't just about the brain. Human speech involves numerous parts of the mouth and ways of moving them, as well as YEARS of practice working out how to reproduce specific sounds. When your mind is suddenly transplanted into a body with a very different system of mouth shape and vocal chords, it's going to take a while to work out how to speak with that. And of course, in some forms it's impossible to make sounds that provide intelligible speech; frogs, for example, can really only go 'ribbit', no matter how smart they are.
EvilVegan 03-28-05, 01:48 AM	If you polymorph into an orc, do you automatically have an orcish accent, or do you have to relearn to speak because this is all new oral "equipment" (and mental stats don't mean you can automatically speak)? What about magical beasts, which are capable of speech, but are physically the same as other animals of similar form? edit: Baleful Polymorph As polymorph, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD. If the new form would prove fatal to the creature the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save. If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own. It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren’t extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities. Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action. The bolded section seems to indicate that if you make the Will save you retain the ability to cast spells, and also makes no mention of verbal components, which would indicate to me that you could in fact cast spells with verbal components. . . which is a bit more complex than speech from what I've gathered. . . Animals may be capable of speech physically, they just don't have a language section of the brain. A frog can make noises other than ribbit (very malleable vocal chords); has a tongue and lips; and an amphibian's brain. Replace the brain and I'm sure it could croak something close to speech, or at least a "yep" or a "nope". Some Birds could easily speak. Throw a magic'd up llama that used to be a human. . . Anyway, I'd say speech was an extraordinary quality that is retained. Its hard to say what animals would be capable of if they had brains as complex as ours. But yes, RAW (if you reference Alter self), because since animals don't have a language then you can't speak when an animal (which is stupid because no animals have enough intelligence to have a language, and if they did they'd be classified as magical beasts. . .). I say if you fail both saves your type changes to animal [augmented humanoid], if you fail the first 1 your type changes to magical beast [augmented humanoid], simply because you retain all class levels, etc.
Heironymus_Vann 03-28-05, 09:20 AM	A wildshaped Druid cannot speak (that's why there is the Natural Spell feat) so I would say a PC baleful polymorphed into an animal CANNOT speak. An "awakened" animal is a magical beast, not an "animal" type any longer, so it's not a good comparison; the baleful polymorphed character is simply an animal. Animals can't speak, period. B.P. is a big problem especially for casters, even if they make their Will save... HV
Drachasor 03-28-05, 09:50 AM	If you polymorph into an orc, do you automatically have an orcish accent, or do you have to relearn to speak because this is all new oral "equipment" (and mental stats don't mean you can automatically speak)? Friendly polymorphs generally give you the capability to utilize the natural physical abilities of the shape (such as attacking). What about magical beasts, which are capable of speech, but are physically the same as other animals of similar form? Not all magical beasts can talk. Paladin Mounts and most Familiars are good examples of this, but there are many, many more. The bolded section seems to indicate that if you make the Will save you retain the ability to cast spells, and also makes no mention of verbal components, which would indicate to me that you could in fact cast spells with verbal components. . . which is a bit more complex than speech from what I've gathered. . . It means that if you have the necessary things you can cast spells. You can cast stilled, silent spells if you are a rat. Compared to not being able to cast anything at all. Animals may be capable of speech physically, they just don't have a language section of the brain. A frog can make noises other than ribbit (very malleable vocal chords); has a tongue and lips; and an amphibian's brain. Replace the brain and I'm sure it could croak something close to speech, or at least a "yep" or a "nope". Some Birds could easily speak. Throw a magic'd up llama that used to be a human. . . Almost no animals have the necessary equipment to talk. We have highly specialized vocal aparati beyond just the brain. It isn't just a matter of vocal cords, but the tongue, mouth, throat, etc. While some words might be possible to duplicate in some animal forms, that is a very far cry from being able to talk in animal form. Even the best the animal kingdom has to offer (say some species of birds) can't pronounce every sound in our language. Most animals simply can't produce anything close to the range of sounds we can, even Neandethals, close relatives of ours, very likely didn't have the physical capacity for our level of speech. It's just a rare thing. Anyway, I'd say speech was an extraordinary quality that is retained. Its hard to say what animals would be capable of if they had brains as complex as ours. There are some things one can rule out as physically impossible though. Remember that extraordinary qualities are the easiest thing to lose when you change your shape. Even Alter Self causes the loss of Ex. Qual. derived from your form. -Drachasor
tarkin 03-28-05, 01:42 PM	If you polymorph a bird into a frog, it can not fly. If you polymorph a creature with the incredibally flexible voicebox, tounge etc. required to make human like speech, into a creature without that ability, it can not talk. Most primates, cetaceans, and Border Collies (generally recognized as the most intelligent type of dog) have a mind capable of speech, but they are trapped in a body that is physically incapable of making the sounds neccesary for human speech. I would let you hear and understand languages you previously knew, but unless you were polymorphed to a species such as parrot, raven, or one that specifically states it can speek, you can not.
EvilVegan 03-28-05, 11:29 PM	Yea. I'm a biology major. I know about physiology. I was discussing magic. I'm not a magic major. Anyway, RAW you can't. My house rule is you can (with trouble), mainly because Willow and Emperor's New Groove are awesome movies, and both involve Baleful Polymorph. Also folk lore is chock full of people getting turned into things and still being able to talk. It is also full of people getting turned into things and not being able to talk. The former made their will save, the later did not. :) Thanks for the feedback. Try not bringing science into a shapechanging discussion though. . . it isn't scientifically possible to turn someone into a frog, so why does it matter that a frog, according to the same science, can't talk? If you want to discuss physiology, then alter self would give you an accent if you changed something as simple as region of birth, and if you went to a different type of humanoid (orc for instance) you would have loads of trouble trying to speak your native language, simply because you've got a different mouth. I'd say it'd be just as hard as casting a spell while deaf, at least until you got used to it, which could take weeks. But that is lame, and over "scientifying" magic. All that being said, from a flavor point of view, how do you guys feel about letting a person talk in simple terms (no spell casting with verbal components) while balefully polymorphed (or wildshaped for that matter)?
Shatteredtower 03-29-05, 12:20 AM	All that being said, from a flavor point of view, how do you guys feel about letting a person talk in simple terms (no spell casting with verbal components) while balefully polymorphed (or wildshaped for that matter)? Pass. I think there's more flavour in having polymorphed earthworms trying to communicate on a ouija board.