Baleful Teleport [Archive] - Wizards Community

Baleful Teleport [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Iver Gearsham
09-20-06, 04:29 PM A lovely 6th level spell that you can cast on a creature or person at close range they get to make a will save to negate or they are affected by a Teleport (with all it restrictions for distance and solid landing surface).

I had originally planed to drop the targets in inhospitable locations like mountain tops, Swamps of Despair, Deserts of Doom, active volcanoes and the like when I thought of if they survive they would just be more powerful for the experience (Connan staked to a tree anyone?) and naturally quite mad at me ;) .

So I decided to just kill them outright by sending them to iron sphere cages that are balanced at the top of a long a bumpy sloped hill, Inside the spheres is a platform with a unique symbol on it and inward facing blades giving the target just enough room to stand and make Balance checks every round or minuet to keep from sending the sphere rolling and bumping down the slope and ending up bloody rags at the bottom.

As the target can't see or Know of their danger they will move and try to get out thus sending them to their Maker.
If they realize their predicament (unlikely without spying, a former victim surviving to tell the tail or meta-gaming) they can stand there till they find away to disable the trap or fall over from exhaustion and die spinning down hill.

As this trick would be used to best effect against melee fighters and brute monsters the ways to survive this are magical items like Armor of Etherealness, Rings of Blink, Boots of Teleport, Cape of the Mountebank.

So what do you think of the Idea? Is it worth the effort?
tarkin
09-20-06, 04:48 PM I see major issues.

The main is your assumption that it is easy/reasonably cheap to make a device with the required characteristics, and that they will stay where you put them unmolested. Forget about the description for a minute. That is secondary.

You are basically describing a trap, that you want to be "save or die". The fact that you bothered to describe how the trap works "balance checks", hills, blades, spheres, is all nice fluff text, but is irrelevant.

Save or die traps, with high saves are EXPENSIVE. If you think that your description means it is not expensive, that is a fault with you, not the rules. You simply can't "ignore" upkeep among other things.

As a DM, I would probably say that your description was fine and worked as you thought it did ... for the first round. Each round they took some small amount of damage, probably 2d6 and each round they get a save. Once they made their save, they are grabbing on to something and no longer taking ANY damage. That might mean they are grabbing onto an axe that is impaled in their chest, but so what.

I also dislike the "combine spell with machine I build" ideas. They generally rely on bad ideas about the machines.

You want a 5th level save or die teleport spell? Fine. make one called Teleport rock into enemey Body. Being 5th level, it should probably have two saves (one for partial damage of 4d6, the other negates damage entirely), but unlike Phantasmal Killer, it should work on any creature, not leaving the loophole for mind affecting.
CryoSilver
09-20-06, 05:17 PM Something like this?

Transposition
Conjuration (teleportation)
Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V,M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft + 5 ft/2 caster levels)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude Partial
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell teleports an object into a target creature. You must make a ranged touch attack to successfully place the object inside your enemy. If you hit, your enemy takes 1d6 damage per point by which you exceeded their touch AC (max 1d6 per caster level, 20d6 cap). If you score a critical hit, the enemy simply dies. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half, and mitgates the death effect to normal full damage.

Material Component: the object to be teleported, which must be at least 1 cubic foot in volume to affect a Medium or larger creature
Iver Gearsham
09-20-06, 06:16 PM Cryosilver nice spell but Fighters and Brute monsters have Great Fort saves so that would be good to use against other Arcane casters.

From tarkin Save or die traps, with high saves are EXPENSIVE. If you think that your description means it is not expensive, that is a fault with you, not the rules. You simply can't "ignore" upkeep among other things.
One: To make/craft anything is One third of the market price So it is less expensive than your Overwhelming cost factor.

Two: Yes I very well expect that how something is made, Who makes it and What it is made of effects the price of anything.

Three: As the sphere is the only moving part and it is a durable single piece object without delicate machine parts and requiers manual reset to work again that also lowers maintenance needs and the over all cost.

Four: It does not need to be hidden to work like all other traps thus by passing another huge expense of most traps.

From tarkin As a DM, I would probably say that your description was fine and worked as you thought it did ... for the first round. Each round they took some small amount of damage, probably 2d6 and each round they get a save. Once they made their save, they are grabbing on to something and no longer taking ANY damage. That might mean they are grabbing onto an axe that is impaled in their chest, but so what.

Your ignoring the very real world fact that to move an injured person risks killing them and that is done with care and effort not to jossl bump or move the person in any unnecessary way
Anybody holding on to a sword blade impaled in their chest or not while bouncing down a hill is going to lose use of their hand and take massive damage internal.

I have rolled down relatively smooth hills in tires and inner tubes no way is anyone going to go down a ruff hill in a hard sharp surface and not be ground meat by the bottom of the hill.

I could make a few holes in it so if I could get it to roll into a river or pond they could drown as well :evillaugh .

I will look into the costs of making it as a "real" trap and get back you.
Myree
09-20-06, 11:26 PM I think part of Tarkin's point was that your wiz is not in complete control of the whole world all the time -- it a gale-force wind kicks up, there goes your preciously balanced cage -- not to mention wandering monsters and daring-do adventurers (sorry, our characters really do NOT live in a vaccuum). Anything you do to "protect" your creation risks immobilizing it. As a DM, I might give you kudo points for coming up with it -- but I would also give it at least a 10% chance that something happened to it -- cumulative depending how long it's been since you checked it out.

Otherwise, Tarkin is right that you just seem to be trying too hard to make the perfect over-balanced (pun intended) save-or-die trap. Game mechanics show it can't be THAT easy to kill someone off with a spell that "easy".

Oh, and nice description Cryo, but wouldn't it be easier to just make the rock etheral for half a second after it leaves your hand at the "touch attack" when you force it into their body?
allenchan
09-20-06, 11:39 PM The damage really wouldnt be that much in the first place, this seems way too elaborate for the low-level thigns it would kill.
Andrew
09-21-06, 05:23 AM Use plane shift to an inhospitable plane (negative energy, positive energy, elemental plane of fire) instead. It saves inventing a new spell (unless I just don't know the source). Also, according to the most recent FAQ, momentum is conserved with teleport, so teleporting someone to a time zone 6 hours later slams them into the ground at 700+ MPH.
VulcanStormwrath
09-21-06, 02:21 PM Something like this?

Transposition
Conjuration (teleportation)
Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V,M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft + 5 ft/2 caster levels)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude Partial
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell teleports an object into a target creature. You must make a ranged touch attack to successfully place the object inside your enemy. If you hit, your enemy takes 1d6 damage per point by which you exceeded their touch AC (max 1d6 per caster level, 20d6 cap). If you score a critical hit, the enemy simply dies. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half, and mitgates the death effect to normal full damage.

Material Component: the object to be teleported, which must be at least 1 cubic foot in volume to affect a Medium or larger creature

Combine this with gembomb, fireseeds or a bead of force as the object and now we're talking.:evillaugh
allenchan
09-21-06, 05:42 PM Use plane shift to an inhospitable plane (negative energy, positive energy, elemental plane of fire) instead. It saves inventing a new spell (unless I just don't know the source). Also, according to the most recent FAQ, momentum is conserved with teleport, so teleporting someone to a time zone 6 hours later slams them into the ground at 700+ MPH.

And thats only 20d6 damage. Yawn.
The Simbul
09-21-06, 06:02 PM "Baleful Teleport" has a precedent in the D&D the rules under Trobiand's baleful teleport in City of Splendors: Waterdeep, which is a 6th level spell, grants a bonus to the targets will save based on how unfamiliar the location is, and requires you to be a member of the arcane guild known as Halaster's Heirs and to have the Favored in Guild feat in order to learn it when you level up (although I imagine it otherwise could still be independently researched).

The only other equivalents that come to mind are planeshift, greater plane shift, wish and the baleful teleport spell possesed by Elminster in D&D miniatures.

planeshiftand greater planeshift require a touch attack and a special focus component. The former isnt an optimal as the latter, given that the lesser spell doesnt let you choose the location.

wish affects one target per level, operates regardless of conditions that would prevent teleportation, is negated by a will save, and costs 5,000 XP, the location is chosed by you, and it can send each individual targets to different locations...in addition to the exponential number of options that the wish spell can be used for. An 8th level spell that teleports one target per level to a location you choose, is negated by a will save, and costs around 1,000 XP would be an appropriate lesser extrapolation of that function of the wish spell.

The baleful teleport spell possesed by Elminster's D&D Miniature is a touch range spell, with no saving throw, and it transports the target to its assembly owner's starting location, but the owner chooses the specific square. This effect would be somewhat difficult to translate into D&D, and its effects would not be lethal but rather an inconvienience for the target, or an easy way to "escape" from a single enemy without having to leave your present location.
Iver Gearsham
09-21-06, 10:33 PM It should be a higher level spell so I changed it too 6th.
Myree Good Idea with the 10% per day Miss fire I like it.

The Simbul one of the reasons to have a unique symbol on each sphere's platform was for targeting it's location as "Very familiar".
Trobiand's baleful teleport It maybe that that Halaster's group only gives out the spell to Favored in the Guild feat takers but I belive in Covergent Evolution for the discovery and invention of ideas.

Using the rules from Stronghold Builder's Guide book for the traps as more detailed.
Trigger:Location cost 0
Reset: Manual Reset cost 0
Search DC: 30 cost 2,000 gp
Disable Device DC: 40 cost 4,000 gp
Reflex Save DC: 40 cost 6,000 gp prevents trap activation, roll every round till you exit the location.
Attack Bonus: Never Miss 1,000 gp
Damage: 20d6 per round of rolling
CR of trap: 8 for average damage +3 for Search DC +3 for Disable Device DC
Total CR: 14
Total Cost: 11,000 gp
Craft Cost: 3,666 gp
Actual Cost: 50 gp Wall of Iron and 1 or more castings of Fabricate
DC to craft trap: 35

Shifting them to another plane to die is great but you can realy lose out on the loot if that plane is destructive or huge how are you going to find it?
If I send them to a Known area I stand a good chance of recovering the loot if I check on it within hours or a day of using the trap. Or have a minion/cohort Simulacrum check the loot as it comes in.
Iver Gearsham
09-27-06, 08:12 PM :bump: :bump: :bump: :emp: :lop: :detect: :globe: :gel: :bravo: :fett: :twitch: :blink: :gah: :crazy: :zzz:
pmurray@bigpond.com
09-27-06, 08:31 PM If they realize their predicament (unlikely without spying, a former victim surviving to tell the tail or meta-gaming) they can stand there till they find away to disable the trap or fall over from exhaustion and die spinning down hill.
Just so long as you clean up after yourself when you are done.

If you want to save-or-die someone, use Phantasmal Killer.
Iver Gearsham
09-27-06, 08:44 PM Just so long as you clean up after yourself when you are done.

If you want to save-or-die someone, use Phantasmal Killer.
And if they cast IRC Resurgents or Resurection or that other spell that pops them up for rounds per level?
Then I got to cast another spell on them instead of moving on to the rest of foes group.

Better dead and litteraly Gone than dead and back in my face about it the same turn.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Iver Gearsham 09-20-06, 04:29 PM	A lovely 6th level spell that you can cast on a creature or person at close range they get to make a will save to negate or they are affected by a Teleport (with all it restrictions for distance and solid landing surface). I had originally planed to drop the targets in inhospitable locations like mountain tops, Swamps of Despair, Deserts of Doom, active volcanoes and the like when I thought of if they survive they would just be more powerful for the experience (Connan staked to a tree anyone?) and naturally quite mad at me ;) . So I decided to just kill them outright by sending them to iron sphere cages that are balanced at the top of a long a bumpy sloped hill, Inside the spheres is a platform with a unique symbol on it and inward facing blades giving the target just enough room to stand and make Balance checks every round or minuet to keep from sending the sphere rolling and bumping down the slope and ending up bloody rags at the bottom. As the target can't see or Know of their danger they will move and try to get out thus sending them to their Maker. If they realize their predicament (unlikely without spying, a former victim surviving to tell the tail or meta-gaming) they can stand there till they find away to disable the trap or fall over from exhaustion and die spinning down hill. As this trick would be used to best effect against melee fighters and brute monsters the ways to survive this are magical items like Armor of Etherealness, Rings of Blink, Boots of Teleport, Cape of the Mountebank. So what do you think of the Idea? Is it worth the effort?
tarkin 09-20-06, 04:48 PM	I see major issues. The main is your assumption that it is easy/reasonably cheap to make a device with the required characteristics, and that they will stay where you put them unmolested. Forget about the description for a minute. That is secondary. You are basically describing a trap, that you want to be "save or die". The fact that you bothered to describe how the trap works "balance checks", hills, blades, spheres, is all nice fluff text, but is irrelevant. Save or die traps, with high saves are EXPENSIVE. If you think that your description means it is not expensive, that is a fault with you, not the rules. You simply can't "ignore" upkeep among other things. As a DM, I would probably say that your description was fine and worked as you thought it did ... for the first round. Each round they took some small amount of damage, probably 2d6 and each round they get a save. Once they made their save, they are grabbing on to something and no longer taking ANY damage. That might mean they are grabbing onto an axe that is impaled in their chest, but so what. I also dislike the "combine spell with machine I build" ideas. They generally rely on bad ideas about the machines. You want a 5th level save or die teleport spell? Fine. make one called Teleport rock into enemey Body. Being 5th level, it should probably have two saves (one for partial damage of 4d6, the other negates damage entirely), but unlike Phantasmal Killer, it should work on any creature, not leaving the loophole for mind affecting.
CryoSilver 09-20-06, 05:17 PM	Something like this? Transposition Conjuration (teleportation) Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V,M Casting Time: 1 action Range: Close (25 ft + 5 ft/2 caster levels) Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude Partial Spell Resistance: Yes This spell teleports an object into a target creature. You must make a ranged touch attack to successfully place the object inside your enemy. If you hit, your enemy takes 1d6 damage per point by which you exceeded their touch AC (max 1d6 per caster level, 20d6 cap). If you score a critical hit, the enemy simply dies. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half, and mitgates the death effect to normal full damage. Material Component: the object to be teleported, which must be at least 1 cubic foot in volume to affect a Medium or larger creature
Iver Gearsham 09-20-06, 06:16 PM	Cryosilver nice spell but Fighters and Brute monsters have Great Fort saves so that would be good to use against other Arcane casters. From tarkin Save or die traps, with high saves are EXPENSIVE. If you think that your description means it is not expensive, that is a fault with you, not the rules. You simply can't "ignore" upkeep among other things. One: To make/craft anything is One third of the market price So it is less expensive than your Overwhelming cost factor. Two: Yes I very well expect that how something is made, Who makes it and What it is made of effects the price of anything. Three: As the sphere is the only moving part and it is a durable single piece object without delicate machine parts and requiers manual reset to work again that also lowers maintenance needs and the over all cost. Four: It does not need to be hidden to work like all other traps thus by passing another huge expense of most traps. From tarkin As a DM, I would probably say that your description was fine and worked as you thought it did ... for the first round. Each round they took some small amount of damage, probably 2d6 and each round they get a save. Once they made their save, they are grabbing on to something and no longer taking ANY damage. That might mean they are grabbing onto an axe that is impaled in their chest, but so what. Your ignoring the very real world fact that to move an injured person risks killing them and that is done with care and effort not to jossl bump or move the person in any unnecessary way Anybody holding on to a sword blade impaled in their chest or not while bouncing down a hill is going to lose use of their hand and take massive damage internal. I have rolled down relatively smooth hills in tires and inner tubes no way is anyone going to go down a ruff hill in a hard sharp surface and not be ground meat by the bottom of the hill. I could make a few holes in it so if I could get it to roll into a river or pond they could drown as well :evillaugh . I will look into the costs of making it as a "real" trap and get back you.
Myree 09-20-06, 11:26 PM	I think part of Tarkin's point was that your wiz is not in complete control of the whole world all the time -- it a gale-force wind kicks up, there goes your preciously balanced cage -- not to mention wandering monsters and daring-do adventurers (sorry, our characters really do NOT live in a vaccuum). Anything you do to "protect" your creation risks immobilizing it. As a DM, I might give you kudo points for coming up with it -- but I would also give it at least a 10% chance that something happened to it -- cumulative depending how long it's been since you checked it out. Otherwise, Tarkin is right that you just seem to be trying too hard to make the perfect over-balanced (pun intended) save-or-die trap. Game mechanics show it can't be THAT easy to kill someone off with a spell that "easy". Oh, and nice description Cryo, but wouldn't it be easier to just make the rock etheral for half a second after it leaves your hand at the "touch attack" when you force it into their body?
allenchan 09-20-06, 11:39 PM	The damage really wouldnt be that much in the first place, this seems way too elaborate for the low-level thigns it would kill.
Andrew 09-21-06, 05:23 AM	Use plane shift to an inhospitable plane (negative energy, positive energy, elemental plane of fire) instead. It saves inventing a new spell (unless I just don't know the source). Also, according to the most recent FAQ, momentum is conserved with teleport, so teleporting someone to a time zone 6 hours later slams them into the ground at 700+ MPH.
VulcanStormwrath 09-21-06, 02:21 PM	Something like this? Transposition Conjuration (teleportation) Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V,M Casting Time: 1 action Range: Close (25 ft + 5 ft/2 caster levels) Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude Partial Spell Resistance: Yes This spell teleports an object into a target creature. You must make a ranged touch attack to successfully place the object inside your enemy. If you hit, your enemy takes 1d6 damage per point by which you exceeded their touch AC (max 1d6 per caster level, 20d6 cap). If you score a critical hit, the enemy simply dies. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half, and mitgates the death effect to normal full damage. Material Component: the object to be teleported, which must be at least 1 cubic foot in volume to affect a Medium or larger creature Combine this with gembomb, fireseeds or a bead of force as the object and now we're talking.:evillaugh
allenchan 09-21-06, 05:42 PM	Use plane shift to an inhospitable plane (negative energy, positive energy, elemental plane of fire) instead. It saves inventing a new spell (unless I just don't know the source). Also, according to the most recent FAQ, momentum is conserved with teleport, so teleporting someone to a time zone 6 hours later slams them into the ground at 700+ MPH. And thats only 20d6 damage. Yawn.
The Simbul 09-21-06, 06:02 PM	"Baleful Teleport" has a precedent in the D&D the rules under Trobiand's baleful teleport in City of Splendors: Waterdeep, which is a 6th level spell, grants a bonus to the targets will save based on how unfamiliar the location is, and requires you to be a member of the arcane guild known as Halaster's Heirs and to have the Favored in Guild feat in order to learn it when you level up (although I imagine it otherwise could still be independently researched). The only other equivalents that come to mind are planeshift, greater plane shift, wish and the baleful teleport spell possesed by Elminster in D&D miniatures. planeshiftand greater planeshift require a touch attack and a special focus component. The former isnt an optimal as the latter, given that the lesser spell doesnt let you choose the location. wish affects one target per level, operates regardless of conditions that would prevent teleportation, is negated by a will save, and costs 5,000 XP, the location is chosed by you, and it can send each individual targets to different locations...in addition to the exponential number of options that the wish spell can be used for. An 8th level spell that teleports one target per level to a location you choose, is negated by a will save, and costs around 1,000 XP would be an appropriate lesser extrapolation of that function of the wish spell. The baleful teleport spell possesed by Elminster's D&D Miniature is a touch range spell, with no saving throw, and it transports the target to its assembly owner's starting location, but the owner chooses the specific square. This effect would be somewhat difficult to translate into D&D, and its effects would not be lethal but rather an inconvienience for the target, or an easy way to "escape" from a single enemy without having to leave your present location.
Iver Gearsham 09-21-06, 10:33 PM	It should be a higher level spell so I changed it too 6th. Myree Good Idea with the 10% per day Miss fire I like it. The Simbul one of the reasons to have a unique symbol on each sphere's platform was for targeting it's location as "Very familiar". Trobiand's baleful teleport It maybe that that Halaster's group only gives out the spell to Favored in the Guild feat takers but I belive in Covergent Evolution for the discovery and invention of ideas. Using the rules from Stronghold Builder's Guide book for the traps as more detailed. Trigger:Location cost 0 Reset: Manual Reset cost 0 Search DC: 30 cost 2,000 gp Disable Device DC: 40 cost 4,000 gp Reflex Save DC: 40 cost 6,000 gp prevents trap activation, roll every round till you exit the location. Attack Bonus: Never Miss 1,000 gp Damage: 20d6 per round of rolling CR of trap: 8 for average damage +3 for Search DC +3 for Disable Device DC Total CR: 14 Total Cost: 11,000 gp Craft Cost: 3,666 gp Actual Cost: 50 gp Wall of Iron and 1 or more castings of Fabricate DC to craft trap: 35 Shifting them to another plane to die is great but you can realy lose out on the loot if that plane is destructive or huge how are you going to find it? If I send them to a Known area I stand a good chance of recovering the loot if I check on it within hours or a day of using the trap. Or have a minion/cohort Simulacrum check the loot as it comes in.
Iver Gearsham 09-27-06, 08:12 PM	:bump: :bump: :bump: :emp: :lop: :detect: :globe: :gel: :bravo: :fett: :twitch: :blink: :gah: :crazy: :zzz:
pmurray@bigpond.com 09-27-06, 08:31 PM	If they realize their predicament (unlikely without spying, a former victim surviving to tell the tail or meta-gaming) they can stand there till they find away to disable the trap or fall over from exhaustion and die spinning down hill. Just so long as you clean up after yourself when you are done. If you want to save-or-die someone, use Phantasmal Killer.
Iver Gearsham 09-27-06, 08:44 PM	Just so long as you clean up after yourself when you are done. If you want to save-or-die someone, use Phantasmal Killer. And if they cast IRC Resurgents or Resurection or that other spell that pops them up for rounds per level? Then I got to cast another spell on them instead of moving on to the rest of foes group. Better dead and litteraly Gone than dead and back in my face about it the same turn.