Banishment fiesta [Archive] - Wizards Community

Banishment fiesta [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
evilrafael
01-30-06, 11:00 AM As a high-level sorcerer, I can cast Banishment quite a few times a day, usually enough to banish a handful of powerful outsiders that would otherwise take the entire group's power to neutralize, even if we fought each one individually. I rule.

My DM, however, feels that the spell power is somewhat unbalanced. So I want to know your people's opinions.

First: do you think it's ok that I cast Banishment again and again on a creature that resists the first time?

Second: can I banish just any extraplanar creature, not only those summoned by Summon monster?

Third: are native outsiders immune to banishment? If so, is it possible a regular extraplanar outsider to be made native, for example?

Umm it might be worth noting that we're playing in Eberron.

Some more might come out on the course of the debate... thanks in advance.
Tommy04
01-30-06, 11:50 AM My DM, however, feels that the spell power is somewhat unbalanced. So I want to know your people's opinions.No, it's not. It allows a Will save and SR.

First: do you think it's ok that I cast Banishment again and again on a creature that resists the first time?Yes.

Second: can I banish just any extraplanar creature, not only those summoned by Summon monster?Yes.

Third: are native outsiders immune to banishment? If so, is it possible a regular extraplanar outsider to be made native, for example?Yes, native outsiders are immune. And no, i can't think of a way to get extraplanar outsiders to become native.

Your DM is missing one important fact: This is CORE. Outsiders have been given their strength with the knowledge there is a spell like banishment and vice-versa.

And: Banishment needs you to win your SR-roll and the outsider to lose his Will-save. Outsiders have good Will-Saves. And Outsiders often have SR. Let's check for Lvl 20-mage versus a Balor (CR20, Will +19, SR 28). I assume you to have an Int of 30 (incluing magic items and so on) and Spell Focus (Abjuration). You had to make a CL-check against his SR of 28. So you had to roll an 8 (60%). The Balor had to make a will save then against DC 28 (10+10[ability mod]+7[spell level]+1[spell focus]). He required a 9 (45% he does not make it). You got a chance of 27% to banish him all in all. I guess the chance that his vorpal sword cuts off your head is greater.
Ut-Napishtim
01-30-06, 11:59 AM I don't think the spell is particularly unbalanced. If the DM is throwing nothing but outsiders at you that's his shortcoming. Sorcerers have very few known spells so selecting Banishment is pretty much putting all your eggs in one basket - making you very effective against outsiders, but comparitively vulnerable to most other things.

As far as I know you can try the spell repeatedly against the same target until it fails the save. Or at least, I see nothing in the description that says they are immune if they resist it the first time, and other spells like Fireball can be cast multiple times even though the opponent may have made the save against the first one.

Outsiders and summoned creatures are both equally vulnerable to being banished.

Not sure on the Native Outsider thing. Generally native outsiders begin as base creatures native the prime that are infused with energy from another plane, be it elemental or celestial/infernal. So no, a true outsider couldn't become native to the prime, but a prime native could become a native outsider. Yet again, I'm not really sure if that would make them vulnerable to Banishment, but my gut inclination is that they would be. You might find some info on that one in the SRD though.
redraven
01-30-06, 12:21 PM Extraplanar Subtype

A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

Banishment is a rather good spell since it works on not just Outsiders, but on every creature not native to the Material Plane (assuming you are adventuring on the Material Plane). If you take a look at CR 18+ creatures, many of them are extraplanar, which means Baniashment will work against them. As others have pointed out though, it requires a successful SR check and then allows a Will save to resist. This puts it in line with many Save-or-Die effects, which Banishment is basically a part of - the only difference is that Banishment targets Will saves versus Fort saves.
stamhaven
01-30-06, 01:04 PM Also banishment doesn't prevent them from coming back it just ejects them. So things that can travel from plane to plane and use teleport at will (many strong extraplanars can do this) it can be just a mild delay. There is no real rule for how you manage the targets of the spell (like there are undead turning rules for who you have to affect first). In general you can pick and choose for multi target spells but the limit for this spell is HD which are not known to the caster and some guidelines are probably in order form a DM... possiby affecting lower HD extraplanars in the area first (not a bad reason for those high CR extraplanars to use the abilty to summon droves of weaker minions as opposed to one bigger one). Also I'd let dimensional anchor stabilize them too... no reason for an extraplanar not to cast a defense against that sort of thing.. though with a drawback in this case of preventing teleport).
evilrafael
01-31-06, 02:08 PM What is this SRD you guys talk about sometimes, and how do I get access to it? Looks like a compendium with all the rules?

(I'm located in Brasil, don't always get access to such cool stuff :) )
stamhaven
01-31-06, 02:59 PM It's a compilation of the core rules (most of them). Here's a link to my favorite version of it Hyperlinked SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) give it a try, I think you'll like it for looking up PHB/MM/DMG type materials. It also has certain materials from the epic level handbook, the psionics handbook, and unearthed arcana variant rules (one of my favorite sections).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
evilrafael 01-30-06, 11:00 AM	As a high-level sorcerer, I can cast Banishment quite a few times a day, usually enough to banish a handful of powerful outsiders that would otherwise take the entire group's power to neutralize, even if we fought each one individually. I rule. My DM, however, feels that the spell power is somewhat unbalanced. So I want to know your people's opinions. First: do you think it's ok that I cast Banishment again and again on a creature that resists the first time? Second: can I banish just any extraplanar creature, not only those summoned by Summon monster? Third: are native outsiders immune to banishment? If so, is it possible a regular extraplanar outsider to be made native, for example? Umm it might be worth noting that we're playing in Eberron. Some more might come out on the course of the debate... thanks in advance.
Tommy04 01-30-06, 11:50 AM	My DM, however, feels that the spell power is somewhat unbalanced. So I want to know your people's opinions.No, it's not. It allows a Will save and SR. First: do you think it's ok that I cast Banishment again and again on a creature that resists the first time?Yes. Second: can I banish just any extraplanar creature, not only those summoned by Summon monster?Yes. Third: are native outsiders immune to banishment? If so, is it possible a regular extraplanar outsider to be made native, for example?Yes, native outsiders are immune. And no, i can't think of a way to get extraplanar outsiders to become native. Your DM is missing one important fact: This is CORE. Outsiders have been given their strength with the knowledge there is a spell like banishment and vice-versa. And: Banishment needs you to win your SR-roll and the outsider to lose his Will-save. Outsiders have good Will-Saves. And Outsiders often have SR. Let's check for Lvl 20-mage versus a Balor (CR20, Will +19, SR 28). I assume you to have an Int of 30 (incluing magic items and so on) and Spell Focus (Abjuration). You had to make a CL-check against his SR of 28. So you had to roll an 8 (60%). The Balor had to make a will save then against DC 28 (10+10[ability mod]+7[spell level]+1[spell focus]). He required a 9 (45% he does not make it). You got a chance of 27% to banish him all in all. I guess the chance that his vorpal sword cuts off your head is greater.
Ut-Napishtim 01-30-06, 11:59 AM	I don't think the spell is particularly unbalanced. If the DM is throwing nothing but outsiders at you that's his shortcoming. Sorcerers have very few known spells so selecting Banishment is pretty much putting all your eggs in one basket - making you very effective against outsiders, but comparitively vulnerable to most other things. As far as I know you can try the spell repeatedly against the same target until it fails the save. Or at least, I see nothing in the description that says they are immune if they resist it the first time, and other spells like Fireball can be cast multiple times even though the opponent may have made the save against the first one. Outsiders and summoned creatures are both equally vulnerable to being banished. Not sure on the Native Outsider thing. Generally native outsiders begin as base creatures native the prime that are infused with energy from another plane, be it elemental or celestial/infernal. So no, a true outsider couldn't become native to the prime, but a prime native could become a native outsider. Yet again, I'm not really sure if that would make them vulnerable to Banishment, but my gut inclination is that they would be. You might find some info on that one in the SRD though.
redraven 01-30-06, 12:21 PM	Extraplanar Subtype A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow. Banishment is a rather good spell since it works on not just Outsiders, but on every creature not native to the Material Plane (assuming you are adventuring on the Material Plane). If you take a look at CR 18+ creatures, many of them are extraplanar, which means Baniashment will work against them. As others have pointed out though, it requires a successful SR check and then allows a Will save to resist. This puts it in line with many Save-or-Die effects, which Banishment is basically a part of - the only difference is that Banishment targets Will saves versus Fort saves.
stamhaven 01-30-06, 01:04 PM	Also banishment doesn't prevent them from coming back it just ejects them. So things that can travel from plane to plane and use teleport at will (many strong extraplanars can do this) it can be just a mild delay. There is no real rule for how you manage the targets of the spell (like there are undead turning rules for who you have to affect first). In general you can pick and choose for multi target spells but the limit for this spell is HD which are not known to the caster and some guidelines are probably in order form a DM... possiby affecting lower HD extraplanars in the area first (not a bad reason for those high CR extraplanars to use the abilty to summon droves of weaker minions as opposed to one bigger one). Also I'd let dimensional anchor stabilize them too... no reason for an extraplanar not to cast a defense against that sort of thing.. though with a drawback in this case of preventing teleport).
evilrafael 01-31-06, 02:08 PM	What is this SRD you guys talk about sometimes, and how do I get access to it? Looks like a compendium with all the rules? (I'm located in Brasil, don't always get access to such cool stuff :) )
stamhaven 01-31-06, 02:59 PM	It's a compilation of the core rules (most of them). Here's a link to my favorite version of it Hyperlinked SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) give it a try, I think you'll like it for looking up PHB/MM/DMG type materials. It also has certain materials from the epic level handbook, the psionics handbook, and unearthed arcana variant rules (one of my favorite sections).