Banned Schools and Known spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Banned Schools and Known spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jimbo19
06-13-05, 11:12 AM Ok from what I read it seems that if you know a spell before you later drop the school due to taking a class like Incanatrix, then you get to continue to use that spell.

So If I drop illusion at level 7 to go Inc, then I can keep using spells like invis and mirror image etc.

Where do I find a rule, within the PHB and DMG to show my DM? If it aint in Black and white, he wont allow it.
Venom of the Yuan Ti
06-13-05, 11:15 AM Check out the DMG text for red mage.
Seeker95
06-13-05, 11:47 AM In my game (I'm the DM) unless the PrC explicitly says otherwise, you can NOT cast spells from a prohibited school, regardless of when you acquired it.
tarkin
06-13-05, 03:12 PM Seeker95, I am confused by your answer. Not sure if you understand the situation. From what I can tell, this is what happens

1) He started out as a regular mage, not a specialist.

2) He learned several illusion spells.

3) He then takes a Prestige Class (Incantratrix) that forces him to gain a forbidden school, and he took illusion. The class explicitedly stated that spells he already knew he keeps.

With that in mind, your answer seems a bit strange.

And yes, the Red Mage is another good example of this kind of thing.
MrkGrismer
06-13-05, 04:18 PM Ignore this, insufficient cofee or somesuch.
Jimbo19
06-13-05, 05:08 PM The only problem I have with that Tarkin, is that I have not read all the fine text, but I do not think it says you keep them.

If it does not say, you keep the spells you knew before you get a prohibited school, then do you lose them by default?

What is the default rule?

I want to take Incanatrix, but I also want to prohibit illusion, and keep mirror image and invis. Heh.

Question is can I do that?

If the answer is no, fine.

If the answer is yes, where is that?

I will go look at the PRC tonight. If it does not say, then I will go look at specialization, perhaps that section addresses what happenes if you specialize after you have already started.
Elgonn
06-13-05, 05:59 PM Tarkin is right. I doesn't matter if you agree with how it should be it is how "post 1st level" specialization/forbidden schools work. They only prevent gaining more known. They don't remove already obtained abilities. This is functionally the same as specialization at 1st level actually.
smrtgmp
06-13-05, 06:45 PM I agree with tarkin.
MrkGrismer
06-13-05, 06:51 PM I see now, I misunderstood what was being asked. Reading the rules on both Incantrix and Specialization, both places say the character gives up the ability to learn the spells from that school, effectively removing them from their list of spells that can be learned, thus they cannot use them in devices either (wands, scrolls, etc.).

But it does not say that they may not use the magic at all, they may still use wonderous items and potions that have the spells, so it is not that the type of magic is actually prohibited, only that they have decicded not to study it so such knowledge is beyond them (just as if it is not on their lists of spells that can be learned).

I would agree that they do not forget what they have already learned. They are not prohibited from casting the spell, only from learning new ones.
Seeker95
06-13-05, 09:44 PM I doesn't matter if you agree with how it should be it is how "post 1st level" specialization/forbidden schools work. They only prevent gaining more known. They don't remove already obtained abilities.The text in the Red Wizard example would work fine if we were talking about sorcerers or bards, or if there really was a limit on the number of spells a wizard can "know". The only spells a wizard "knows" are the ones s/he has prepared on any given day.

But, as Elgonn pointed out, there is a difference between the RAW and agreeing with the RAW.
tarkin is right. But the text is ridiculous. Either it is prohibited or it is not.
MrkGrismer
06-13-05, 10:47 PM The text in the Red Wizard example would work fine if we were talking about sorcerers or bards, or if there really was a limit on the number of spells a wizard can "know". The only spells a wizard "knows" are the ones s/he has prepared on any given day.

But, as Elgonn pointed out, there is a difference between the RAW and agreeing with the RAW.
tarkin is right. But the text is ridiculous. Either it is prohibited or it is not.

From my reading a wizard 'knows' or 'learns' a spell once he has deciphered it and spent the time to be able to understand it and then scribe it into his book. What I believe is the case here is that the specialist wizard decides to stop doing his studies and research in the 'prohibited' school, and thus can no longer advance his knowledge in that particular school. He can no longer 'figure out' more advanced spells in that school in exchange for the more focused research he puts into the more specialized knowledge (in this case, the incantrix).

Now, if the mage decides to take back up the research and advance levels as wizard (non specialist) again, I would presume he could again gain knowledge in the school, thus making it only 'prohibited' to spells gained as an incantrix.

But that's my reading.
Elgonn
06-13-05, 10:50 PM The only spells a wizard "knows" are the ones s/he has prepared on any given day.

Not exactly. For example Wizards "know" what they've managed to interpret and learn through a spellcraft check. They just lack any sort of fundamental cap on it.

Wizard 5 finds an opponents spellbook. Learns Fireball, Displacement, and fails to learn Suggestion. Wizard gains a level and takes Incantatrix 1. Chooses to drop Enchantment. Also gains another rank in spellcraft allowing them to retry to learn Suggestion but cannot any longer because Enchantment is now barred.

Wizards have "known".
runestar
06-13-05, 10:50 PM The problem is that while red wizard specifically states that you retain the ability to cast the spells from your new prohibited school that you already knew, incantatrix has no such reminder text. You may argue that red wiz reminder text may be applied to all classes with similiar drawbacks, but that clearly wasn't the case with the SLA feat from PGTF.

So, since incantatrix has no reminder text, I would say you lose the ability to cast the spells you already knew from your new prohibited school.
Elgonn
06-13-05, 11:01 PM Actually the 3.0 Incantatrix has the text similar to the Red Wizard. The 3.5 Incantatrix does not.

Strangely it references the 3.5 specialization text which is really odd. Which says you cannot learn from your opposed school and that spells are "not available" (doesn't say can't cast or banned). I'm sure someone could or will try to argue that since the school's spells themselves aren't inherently banned you could still cast what you know.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jimbo19 06-13-05, 11:12 AM	Ok from what I read it seems that if you know a spell before you later drop the school due to taking a class like Incanatrix, then you get to continue to use that spell. So If I drop illusion at level 7 to go Inc, then I can keep using spells like invis and mirror image etc. Where do I find a rule, within the PHB and DMG to show my DM? If it aint in Black and white, he wont allow it.
Venom of the Yuan Ti 06-13-05, 11:15 AM	Check out the DMG text for red mage.
Seeker95 06-13-05, 11:47 AM	In my game (I'm the DM) unless the PrC explicitly says otherwise, you can NOT cast spells from a prohibited school, regardless of when you acquired it.
tarkin 06-13-05, 03:12 PM	Seeker95, I am confused by your answer. Not sure if you understand the situation. From what I can tell, this is what happens 1) He started out as a regular mage, not a specialist. 2) He learned several illusion spells. 3) He then takes a Prestige Class (Incantratrix) that forces him to gain a forbidden school, and he took illusion. The class explicitedly stated that spells he already knew he keeps. With that in mind, your answer seems a bit strange. And yes, the Red Mage is another good example of this kind of thing.
MrkGrismer 06-13-05, 04:18 PM	Ignore this, insufficient cofee or somesuch.
Jimbo19 06-13-05, 05:08 PM	The only problem I have with that Tarkin, is that I have not read all the fine text, but I do not think it says you keep them. If it does not say, you keep the spells you knew before you get a prohibited school, then do you lose them by default? What is the default rule? I want to take Incanatrix, but I also want to prohibit illusion, and keep mirror image and invis. Heh. Question is can I do that? If the answer is no, fine. If the answer is yes, where is that? I will go look at the PRC tonight. If it does not say, then I will go look at specialization, perhaps that section addresses what happenes if you specialize after you have already started.
Elgonn 06-13-05, 05:59 PM	Tarkin is right. I doesn't matter if you agree with how it should be it is how "post 1st level" specialization/forbidden schools work. They only prevent gaining more known. They don't remove already obtained abilities. This is functionally the same as specialization at 1st level actually.
smrtgmp 06-13-05, 06:45 PM	I agree with tarkin.
MrkGrismer 06-13-05, 06:51 PM	I see now, I misunderstood what was being asked. Reading the rules on both Incantrix and Specialization, both places say the character gives up the ability to learn the spells from that school, effectively removing them from their list of spells that can be learned, thus they cannot use them in devices either (wands, scrolls, etc.). But it does not say that they may not use the magic at all, they may still use wonderous items and potions that have the spells, so it is not that the type of magic is actually prohibited, only that they have decicded not to study it so such knowledge is beyond them (just as if it is not on their lists of spells that can be learned). I would agree that they do not forget what they have already learned. They are not prohibited from casting the spell, only from learning new ones.
Seeker95 06-13-05, 09:44 PM	I doesn't matter if you agree with how it should be it is how "post 1st level" specialization/forbidden schools work. They only prevent gaining more known. They don't remove already obtained abilities.The text in the Red Wizard example would work fine if we were talking about sorcerers or bards, or if there really was a limit on the number of spells a wizard can "know". The only spells a wizard "knows" are the ones s/he has prepared on any given day. But, as Elgonn pointed out, there is a difference between the RAW and agreeing with the RAW. tarkin is right. But the text is ridiculous. Either it is prohibited or it is not.
MrkGrismer 06-13-05, 10:47 PM	The text in the Red Wizard example would work fine if we were talking about sorcerers or bards, or if there really was a limit on the number of spells a wizard can "know". The only spells a wizard "knows" are the ones s/he has prepared on any given day. But, as Elgonn pointed out, there is a difference between the RAW and agreeing with the RAW. tarkin is right. But the text is ridiculous. Either it is prohibited or it is not. From my reading a wizard 'knows' or 'learns' a spell once he has deciphered it and spent the time to be able to understand it and then scribe it into his book. What I believe is the case here is that the specialist wizard decides to stop doing his studies and research in the 'prohibited' school, and thus can no longer advance his knowledge in that particular school. He can no longer 'figure out' more advanced spells in that school in exchange for the more focused research he puts into the more specialized knowledge (in this case, the incantrix). Now, if the mage decides to take back up the research and advance levels as wizard (non specialist) again, I would presume he could again gain knowledge in the school, thus making it only 'prohibited' to spells gained as an incantrix. But that's my reading.
Elgonn 06-13-05, 10:50 PM	The only spells a wizard "knows" are the ones s/he has prepared on any given day. Not exactly. For example Wizards "know" what they've managed to interpret and learn through a spellcraft check. They just lack any sort of fundamental cap on it. Wizard 5 finds an opponents spellbook. Learns Fireball, Displacement, and fails to learn Suggestion. Wizard gains a level and takes Incantatrix 1. Chooses to drop Enchantment. Also gains another rank in spellcraft allowing them to retry to learn Suggestion but cannot any longer because Enchantment is now barred. Wizards have "known".
runestar 06-13-05, 10:50 PM	The problem is that while red wizard specifically states that you retain the ability to cast the spells from your new prohibited school that you already knew, incantatrix has no such reminder text. You may argue that red wiz reminder text may be applied to all classes with similiar drawbacks, but that clearly wasn't the case with the SLA feat from PGTF. So, since incantatrix has no reminder text, I would say you lose the ability to cast the spells you already knew from your new prohibited school.
Elgonn 06-13-05, 11:01 PM	Actually the 3.0 Incantatrix has the text similar to the Red Wizard. The 3.5 Incantatrix does not. Strangely it references the 3.5 specialization text which is really odd. Which says you cannot learn from your opposed school and that spells are "not available" (doesn't say can't cast or banned). I'm sure someone could or will try to argue that since the school's spells themselves aren't inherently banned you could still cast what you know.