Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MikeyP 06-19-07, 10:38 PM	Hi all, Obviously there is quite the glut of spells available these days. I've been reading around and chatting with some people and I've come up with a list of a few spells that I'll be banning in my next campaign. So with all the of the spells out there from various WotC sources, I'd really like to know what spells other DMs are banning from their games and why. So, there it is. - What spells are you currently banning/nerfing/seriously reworking in your games? - Why? Does it just not fit into your campaign, or do you feel it is broken or easily abused/exploited? - If the latter, how is broken/abused/exploited? I'm sure this has probably been discussed in several other threads, but I went back about 24+ pages and couldn't find anything specific. I did get this from another member (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=86768), but I'm looking info on more that just the PHB spells.
Joseph_Silver 06-19-07, 10:47 PM	It varies from DM to DM, so you'll have to ask him which spells are available in his campaign. The different Living Campaigns have different sets of banned spells. Usually it's open-ended stuff like Limited Wish and Wish, but sometimes spells get banned because they're broken. For example, Wraithstrike is banned from all Living Campaigns because it is incredibly overpowered.
MikeyP 06-19-07, 10:55 PM	It varies from DM to DM, so you'll have to ask him which spells are available in his campaign. Well yeah, that's basically what I'm asking here; what spells are DMs banning from their games and why? :) Otherwise, thanks for your input! Wraithstrike is a shining example of a spell that should go away IMO. It's caused a huge problem in my campaign, especially when combined with a Suel Archanamach (sp?). IIRC, there is a spell that does exactly the same thing but with a different name. Maybe it isn't a spell at all and is in ToB? I can't remember offhand.
SephDragoon 06-19-07, 11:28 PM	I have never banned a spell in my campaigns. I just give my players a warning at the onset of a campaign... "Anything you can do, I can do better." If they abuse a spell, I can asure them their enemies will as well. So they know not to overdo it.
bobothechimp 06-19-07, 11:57 PM	Find the Path, just because makes dungeons pointless. Polymorph, does it need an explanation?
Muktar 06-20-07, 12:21 AM	Time stop--only because it slows down combat a lot. Wraithstrike-- because it is way too cheesy. I have thought about making it a 7th lvl spell though.
Salla 06-20-07, 12:26 AM	I don't mind Wraithstrike too much because it's only really good for one type of character (the gish). A regular wizard or sorcerer with this isn't doing himself any great favors. I'm considering, in my next game, banning all Summoning spells (along with Astral Construct for psionics). It's just a pain in the butt.
cato 06-20-07, 01:04 AM	Well summoning is ok as long as the player has done the appropriate amount of preparation. Wraithstrike is only really good for the assassin or the dual classed character, and their reduced attack bonus kinda makes up for it. Time stop doesnt really slow combat down.. Polymorph is a really nice classic spell, and to be honest imo casters should be more powerful than melee chars after a certain level. If I would ban something it would be ray deflection and persistible ruin delver's fortune on high lvl sorcerers.. its ludicrously overpowered. I would also ban epic spellcasting cause I think Is is not in the spirit of the rest of the game. Unless you play it in a restricted way like in the forgotten realms campaign setting.
smallfishnova 06-20-07, 02:51 AM	For some DM, teleport (or teleport greater, and the broken gate) will be a problem. They provide a way for some players to make trouble. Such as, i teleport out the area (which the DM designed for the entire campaign) and the DM suddenly needs to have some make-up for it. If you have some counter act for it, it usually be teleport or some higher level spell. I don't like the sneak attack ideas much, i think 2 times is at most. Scry + teleport when the PC caster are preparing their spell? I just you want a All party kill... I think Dimension Door is OK since it just escape from the battle scene and creare less problem than polymorph.
Mellagon 06-20-07, 03:08 AM	Polymorph, because it's a bookwork nightmare and it's simply too good not to take. Forget raw power - it's the one spell that can solve pretty much any problem. The single-shape polymorphs are fine, IMHO. Celerity and its ilk I banned because at high levels it can get simply ridiculous. Foresight + celerity = better than immortal. My PCs didn't want villains to have it, and I agreed they could pull similar tricks. Shivering touch, because 3d6 dex damage with no save kills pretty much anything. Mage's Disjunction isn't banned - it's just very frowned upon, mostly for its, "Ha ha, got your magic items all killed," properties. I usually ban wands and scrolls of wraithstrike and true strike. The spells aren't too bad themselves, but when anyone can use them without the burden of trying to fighter/mage, it becomes scary. I caveatted a casting time on teleport - a mile a round (about as fast as a jet, essentially). This makes teleport still mighty, but keeps Scry and Die in check. Also it makes that miss chance actually mean something other than, "Prepare two teleports." I would frown on Power Word Pain being used against PCs at low levels, either by other PCs or by monsters. And for the love of crap, beware the bard with glibness. A +40 bluff check is ridiculously powerful, according to RAW. Still, they're bards. They need it.
tarkin 06-20-07, 11:24 AM	BLASPEHMY. Just too nasty an idea, when used by 3 casters that can do it.
MikeyP 06-20-07, 11:28 AM	BLASPEHMY. Just too nasty an idea, when used by 3 casters that can do it. What about Holy Word then?
aotrscommander 06-20-07, 11:45 AM	I don't own Frostburn, but if I did, Shivering Touch would make the first spell to make my flat-out banned list (save those from Complete champion that are so tied to the Greyhawk dieites that if I wanted to use for my own world, I'd basically have to re-write them.) Ray of Stupidity, or "I win animal encounters" (D4+1 intelligence damage) is another one to watch out for though. I have not banned this, merely added my own errata which means you can't reduce Int below 1 (since it's not a bad concept).
cato 06-20-07, 11:47 AM	Same problem arises when you take low CR creatures with a lot of HD and apply the half fiend template to them.. instadeathsphemy.
CrazyMarv 06-20-07, 11:59 AM	I usually ban wands and scrolls of wraithstrike and true strike. When you use a wand or scroll the spell is cast as a Standard action isn't it? So a wand/scroll of Wraithstrike would be next to worthless. Ray of Stupidity, or "I win animal encounters" (D4+1 intelligence damage) is another one to watch out for though. I have not banned this, merely added my own errata which means you can't reduce Int below 1 (since it's not a bad concept). Although my group knows about how easily this hoses certain monsters, there are by far more than enough it can't kill with 1 hit that the DM can make preparing the spell kind of useless. Not to mention creatures immune to mind affecting things anyway...
JWT 06-20-07, 12:25 PM	Check out my thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=802849) on the subject. I try to get the posters to rate the spell on potential disruptiveness.
DracoPhoenix 06-21-07, 03:35 AM	Not a spell, but my DM's banned the persistent spell metamagic. Something about it being a bit too powerful with the right spells :).
MikeyP 06-21-07, 07:47 AM	Not a spell, but my DM's banned the persistent spell metamagic. Something about it being a bit too powerful with the right spells :). Do you know which spells he is most concerned with?
DracoPhoenix 06-21-07, 08:12 AM	Do you know which spells he is most concerned with? I can't remember the details of the feat, but most likely most of the better buffs - true seeing, telepathy, mage armour & shield, for example. I think it only had a +1-2 LA to the spell, so pretty much all of the duration in minutes (i.e. 1 encounter) stuff.
SephDragoon 06-21-07, 09:12 AM	No, it was cheese like Wraithstrike, Divine Power, and other things that were like 1/round per level or lower that are the problem.
HuManBing 06-21-07, 10:00 AM	I'm not that big on mechanics. But for flavor reasons, I don't like to allow Comprehend Languages or Tongues. If I put in an NPC that the PCs can't understand, there's a good reason for it, and the search for a translator or translation is a good role playing opportunity. It also allows NPCs to essentially code their communications more easily, like in the real world.
Alamanther's comeback 06-21-07, 11:10 AM	I'm not that big on mechanics. But for flavor reasons, I don't like to allow Comprehend Languages or Tongues. If I put in an NPC that the PCs can't understand, there's a good reason for it, and the search for a translator or translation is a good role playing opportunity. It also allows NPCs to essentially code their communications more easily, like in the real world. Fortunately, not every party has access to those spells - and what's more, what does comprehend languages help if you can't ask the right questions? The touched creature gains no ability to understand you. But searching for a translator is not a terribly exciting thing - at worst, it can be a boring stalling measure by the DM. It's not something that I'd ban a spell over - use it as a plot device only if you have some cool ideas about it, and not too many times. I have similar issues with raise dead and similar spells - they can really lessen the impact of a good murder mystery. In general, however, I think banning anything from the PHB is cheesy - it has dumb DM written all over it. However, I always think a DM should censure what spells (feats, and prestige classes) from other sources he wishes to include, for flavour as much as balance.
SephDragoon 06-21-07, 05:34 PM	I have similar issues with raise dead and similar spells - they can really lessen the impact of a good murder mystery. 1HD NPC's ftw... you suffer level loss on res right? So, am I right in assuming being dropped to 0HD would kill him again? :P
Salla 06-21-07, 07:17 PM	1HD NPC's ftw... you suffer level loss on res right? So, am I right in assuming being dropped to 0HD would kill him again? :P If you can't lose the level, you just take points of permanent unrestorable CON damage.
Lafing Cat 06-21-07, 08:37 PM	I have similar issues with raise dead and similar spells - they can really lessen the impact of a good murder mystery. Why not just have them be unwilling to return, if you really don't want it working? Raise Dead spells only work on the willing, and its not like the players can say "No, this NPC is really willing to be raised"
HuManBing 06-21-07, 10:30 PM	But searching for a translator is not a terribly exciting thing - at worst, it can be a boring stalling measure by the DM. It's not something that I'd ban a spell over - use it as a plot device only if you have some cool ideas about it, and not too many times. In general, however, I think banning anything from the PHB is cheesy - it has dumb DM written all over it. However, I always think a DM should censure what spells (feats, and prestige classes) from other sources he wishes to include, for flavour as much as balance. If it works for you, that's fine.
Joachim 06-21-07, 11:44 PM	We don't have any banned spells in our group, but we have an agreed-to disarmament treaty on a couple of items: Time Stop and Mage's Disjunction. The former slows down combat to a crawl and the latter can just plain wreck a campaign at the levels you can expect to see them.
Alamanther's comeback 06-22-07, 03:18 AM	I don't think time stop is that bad... But the DM should have no reservations about pressing the player whose character casts it to make quick decisions about what he wants to do each round. After all, twelve to thirty seconds isn't all the time in the world. The DM can also limit time stop abuse (as in time stop + delayed blast fireball ad libitum) by being creative about hostile encounters - an encounter can easily start at point blank range with the pcs surrounded. The pc who is a champion of excessive force with time stop overkill may also find that restraint is good thing when he suddenly finds he's burned all his high-level spell slot before a particularly challenging encounter. Thanks for the feedback on raise dead. It would still require some explanation as to why the spirit won't come back - not just "the spirit is unwilling because it furthers my plot".
cato 06-22-07, 03:55 AM	We don't have any banned spells in our group, but we have an agreed-to disarmament treaty on a couple of items: Time Stop and Mage's Disjunction. The former slows down combat to a crawl and the latter can just plain wreck a campaign at the levels you can expect to see them. I believe the reason they kept Mordenkainens's disjunction same throughout editions and erratas is cause it adds some sort of balance to overbuffing, permanencies, loving/depending on your items too much etc, there are ways to prevent it from hitting you you just have to be vigilant. I dont think its more powerful than shapechange, and I have to agree with some other poster here who stated its unwise to ban Phb spells.
Alamanther's comeback 06-22-07, 04:52 AM	With Mordenkainen's disjunction, there is always the greed factor - adventurers and villains alike may be unwilling to sacrifice valuable magic items unless desperate. Is ruin delver's fortune ludicrously overpowered? It lasts only 1-4 rounds. Okay, so with Persistent Spell, it lasts all day. So what? It uses up a tenth level slot! How high is an epic level sorcerer's charisma? 30, tops? Is it really that bad for him to use a 10th level slot to gain a +10 bonus to one type of saving throw for 24 hours?
dirkformica 06-22-07, 07:53 AM	I'm guessing with Ruin's Delver + Sorc, the reason some feel it is over-powered is because it's an immediate action to cast. All you need is it as a spell known and have spells per day left and you can use the effects whenever you want (barring surprise or something.) If you're about to be hit with a spell you might fail, or take a bit hit of damage, just instantly cast the spell to get the protection you need.
HuManBing 06-22-07, 09:44 AM	Generally if I ban a spell (just the same as if I ban a race, class, or other issue) it's because of flavor of the campaign, not because of power levels. It won't be gone from every game I run, just a few ones to preserve what the campaign stands for. E.g. in the campaign where I put Comprehend Language and Tongues off-limits, I also put non-human races off-limits too. Why? The whole campaign was about mankind's first contact with elves, and the challenges of effective communication with them. You can get profound and dramatic plot changes from a single misunderstood gesture, just like you see in realworld historical situations where civilizations meet for the first time. Also, there are campaigns where I remove spells like Sending and Teleport, for a somewhat lower-magic feeling. If the PCs have to get back to the capital as fast as they can to prevent a coup, there might be a few good encounters on the horseback ride there... which they would miss entirely if they just teleported back. I make sure my PCs know these limitations before playing the campaign. Nobody likes to be nerfed as a surprise. But for those of you saying "lame DM", I point out that the RAW are merely a guideline for play, not a straitjacket. DMs and players can and do routinely pick and choose which parts they like to incorporate in their campaigns, and which parts they don't. In my opinion, players who think that every campaign MUST be exactly done by the RAW, no more, no less - those are the "lame players", for lacking any sense of flexibility, imagination, and customization.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 06-22-07, 12:02 PM	All teleport/greater teleport/Shadow Walk/Air walk/Ethereal Jaunt style spells. They reduce the world to a very small place. Once players get a fast travel spell of this nature they cease going overland to anything they have visited before. In my game Teleportor (basic) is a 8th level spell. Planar Travel Magic is 9th level. The ability to bend space time to that extent is mighy magic indeed. Miracle and Wish are the sole '10th level' spells in my game and reserved for epic levels as per the FR setting. Lesser versions are 9th level. Divination magics that ask questions of extraplanar or deific creatures are usable once per month and have exponentially scaling material costs as the level of the spell increases. A good solid HINT from these spells is fine but when over used a divination style spell can destroy murder mysteries or long lost item/person questions, or quests. Translation spells like comprehend languages or tongues are also much, much higher level and again cost a lot in material components. (6th and 8th respectively). The ability they give to translate and communicate is a real mystery killer a lot of the time. Wraistrike is banned for the moment until I figure out where I want it in the level setting. Any ability/effect/spell that allows Sneak Attack to be used on Undead, Constructs or creatures normally immune to criticals is similarly banned complete. An intelligently played Rogue can be absolutely deadly. They need that counterbalance to make them feel mortal from time to time.
Gnarl 06-22-07, 12:45 PM	These are the spells I have banned in my games: Alter Self, Polymorph, ...: These spells are a pain to handle. You might be able to add a little control on the spell by banning some shapes but I'm lazy and I find that too much trouble. Veil of Undeath: Undead immunities without almost no drawbacks is just not my kind of fun. Yeah, it's 'only' 10 minutes per level but at 15th level it lasts way too long. Illusory Pit: 6th level spell that disables multiple opponents for at least 2 rounds on a will save and no spell resistance is way to strong for a spell that level (in my humble opinion). Assay Spell Resistance: Some monsters used to rely on spell resistance to avoid save or die spells. There are lots of other ways to deal with monsters with high spell resistance but with this thing, players have the bad habbit of becoming lazy. Hail of Stone: Area, no save, no spell resistance, no damage reduction for a 1st level spell. It's not that bad but once your players figure out they can put these things in wands you're going to hate it. Investiture of the Amnizu: Just read the spell. I hate spells that deal ability damage too easily. These are the ones I have altered: Radiant Assault: I changed dazed with dazzled. I'm agains giving clerics a spell that disables multiple opponents for multiple rounds on a failed will save (in addition to dealing damage). Conviction: I limited the bonus to +2. At higher levels, players and monsters become nearly invulnerable to effects with a saving throw. As a side note, my players still consider Mass Conviction to be one of the best party buffs. Ray of Stupidity: This is a common fix. I changed it to a penalty similar to the ray of enfeeblement spell.
Zelin 06-22-07, 02:08 PM	Hail of Stone: Area, no save, no spell resistance, no damage reduction for a 1st level spell. It's not that bad but once your players figure out they can put these things in wands you're going to hate it. Agreed. We added a reflex save for half.
cato 06-22-07, 02:32 PM	Agreed. We added a reflex save for half. Tbh i think magic missile is way more powerful
Gnarl 06-22-07, 05:35 PM	Tbh i think magic missile is way more powerful I think Hail of Stone is slightly more powerful at lower levels and magic missile is probably better after level 7. But the real trouble with hail of stone is not when you memorize it; it's when you put it into a wand. You get a cheap unlimited 5d4 area attack without any means of protection (other than total cover). It makes wizards from level 3-11 a lot more deadly.
MikeyP 06-22-07, 09:44 PM	Just playing devil's advocate here, but just keep in mind that in a wand Hail of Stone still has a casting time of 1 round, and that it costs just a bit more to place in a wand than any other 1st level spell.
FallingIcicle 06-23-07, 08:12 AM	The only spell I despise enough to ban is Mordenkainen's Disjunction. I don't think words can adequately express how much I despise that spell. A player can spend tens of thousands of exp and gold spent on magic items, only for an obnoxious enemy mage to wave his hand and *poof*, they lose their enchantments - permanently. It'd be one thing if it targeted only one item at a time, but this is an area effect spell! And unlike dispel magic, even *epic* dispel magic, no caster level roll is required for it to dispel all of the party's buffs! It is just far too powerful, too cheap, and too easy. This spell is completely ridiculous, even for 9th level, imo. The worst thing about this spell is that it's the perfect DM griefing tool. No player will ever want to use this spell on an enemy because they don't want to destroy their loot. An NPC, on the other hand, will if the DM says he will. It's not that I think magic items should be indestructible, just that it should be much harder than this spell makes it.
Father Dale 06-23-07, 10:55 AM	I have never banned a spell in my campaigns. I just give my players a warning at the onset of a campaign... "Anything you can do, I can do better." If they abuse a spell, I can asure them their enemies will as well. So they know not to overdo it. QFT
cato 06-23-07, 11:02 AM	The only spell I despise enough to ban is Mordenkainen's Disjunction. I don't think words can adequately express how much I despise that spell. A player can spend tens of thousands of exp and gold spent on magic items, only for an obnoxious enemy mage to wave his hand and *poof*, they lose their enchantments - permanently. It'd be one thing if it targeted only one item at a time, but this is an area effect spell! And unlike dispel magic, even *epic* dispel magic, no caster level roll is required for it to dispel all of the party's buffs! It is just far too powerful, too cheap, and too easy. This spell is completely ridiculous, even for 9th level, imo. The worst thing about this spell is that it's the perfect DM griefing tool. No player will ever want to use this spell on an enemy because they don't want to destroy their loot. An NPC, on the other hand, will if the DM says he will. It's not that I think magic items should be indestructible, just that it should be much harder than this spell makes it. The game emulates the real world, and in the real world **** happens, and your items are not part of yourself. This is what this spell is trying to say. And tbh even as a player in order to survive I wouldnt mind using this spell at all, battles at those levels are really unrealistic if players dont use their strongest spells cause of loot.
Father Dale 06-23-07, 11:15 AM	These are the spells I have banned in my games: Alter Self, Polymorph, ...: These spells are a pain to handle. You might be able to add a little control on the spell by banning some shapes but I'm lazy and I find that too much trouble. Veil of Undeath: Undead immunities without almost no drawbacks is just not my kind of fun. Yeah, it's 'only' 10 minutes per level but at 15th level it lasts way too long. Illusory Pit: 6th level spell that disables multiple opponents for at least 2 rounds on a will save and no spell resistance is way to strong for a spell that level (in my humble opinion). Assay Spell Resistance: Some monsters used to rely on spell resistance to avoid save or die spells. There are lots of other ways to deal with monsters with high spell resistance but with this thing, players have the bad habbit of becoming lazy. Hail of Stone: Area, no save, no spell resistance, no damage reduction for a 1st level spell. It's not that bad but once your players figure out they can put these things in wands you're going to hate it. Investiture of the Amnizu: Just read the spell. I hate spells that deal ability damage too easily. These are the ones I have altered: Radiant Assault: I changed dazed with dazzled. I'm agains giving clerics a spell that disables multiple opponents for multiple rounds on a failed will save (in addition to dealing damage). Conviction: I limited the bonus to +2. At higher levels, players and monsters become nearly invulnerable to effects with a saving throw. As a side note, my players still consider Mass Conviction to be one of the best party buffs. Ray of Stupidity: This is a common fix. I changed it to a penalty similar to the ray of enfeeblement spell. Veil of Undeath is nice and powerful, but also has the drawback of making you take damage from positive energy and get healed by negative energy. In most PC party's, the healer will be throwing out more positive energy and generally won't have a lot of negative energy to play with. So it typically makes it harder to get healed if you need it. AND its NOT dismisable, so if the caster is at low hps and the PC's healer doesn't have some inflict or harm spells handy, hes stuck in a rough spot. Although granted, there are some ways for an arcane caster to pump himself with negative energy, they usually aren't the most efficient ways of doing it. It also has an odd material component, although it shouldn't be too difficult for 15th lvl necromantic casting PCs. I don't see a problem with Hail of Stone. Its got a 'costly' material componenet, so no Eschew Materials. Its area is small (only 5' radius), and its damage is small as well. Further, its got a 1 round casting time. Pretty balanced for a 1st level spell I think. Its strongest use? Adding Fell Drain to it to give a target an automatic negative level.
stuffed_monkey17 06-29-07, 04:55 PM	I really hate the luminous armor and greater luminous armor from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Sure is only +4 AC and +8 AC for a 1st and 3rd(?) level spell, but oh, by the way, I'm shining so frickin bright that you take -4 to hit me in melee, for the low cost of like 1d3 str per casting. Darn, cause I'm a druid who's gonna wildshape into a dire bear now. Now thats rediculous.
robitusinz 06-29-07, 05:55 PM	1) Anything outside of the PHB+the core campaign book for whatever campaign is currently being used, is banned for PCs. 2) Anything outside of the PHB or campaign book that a PC wants to use or do can possibly be allowed via DM's decision. 3) Anything that's allowed in the game can be used by NPCs as easily as PCs. That's pretty much my regular group's stance on things. Usually, there's a minor story arc if someone wants to grab something that falls out of the scope of the PHB+campaign books. Typically, anything "ridiculous" is disallowed. We like to power-game and optimize, but pretty much draw the line at combos, or anything that can't feasibly be explained through game terms. Wish, Miracle, Planar Ally, Gate...anything that can basically cause a storyline in and of itself is usually restricted to DM-only. It's pretty obvious when a spell exists in order to make the DM's life easy, or just as tools to make interesting stories. A PC has no need to summon a Planar Ally when he's got a buttload of Summon spells he can use. He he has a buddy on another plane, then the buddy will show up whenever it's appropriate to the story. I dunno, I never play D&D with the intent to play in some public league where the rules have to be standardized. So words like "ban" just seem kinda stupid to me when used to refer to anything in D&D. "Ban" is perfect for Magic...but D&D...meh...