Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zardnaar 05-29-05, 11:00 PM	Any other DMs here ban spells from certain books? Apart from saying no you can't have access to XYZ book I've banned the following spells from my game. Shivering Touch (players agreed with me on this one) Wood Rot (We're in a seafaring game and as written this spell can compltely shut down anything made out of wood with an AC of 5 or less with no size limit. A Galleon for example) Alter Self Polymorph Polymorph Any Object Shapechange All to powerul/broken for my games. Players had a small objection until I pointed out you could polymorph a Cleric into a Troll for +12 Strength, cast righeous might (+8 strength) and Divine Power for another +6 strength- or 40 strength for a Cleric with 14 natural strength. That doesn't include the other abuses you can put these spells to such as natural armor, awaken abuse, create a vorpal sword abuse, etc etc.
Steely Glint 05-29-05, 11:21 PM	I agree with you on the shape changing spells. They are extremely overpowered in the hands of clever PCs, and a bookkeeping nightmare for the DM. Disguises and similar uses can be handled by illusion spells.
Bopple 05-29-05, 11:26 PM	Shape changing is an iconic theme of magic. Eliminating them altogether, seems too much.
Steely Glint 05-29-05, 11:37 PM	I've considered many options to try and fix the problems caused by shapechanging magic, but none of them are very good. It tends to be either useless or overpowered. One possible solution is to list specific forms that can be taken at certain levels, similar to the summon monster series. This is probably the most viable solution, but it's a decent amount of work. Another is to let casters choose from a pool of abilities they will be granted by their new form (Increased Strength, Large size, natural armor, flight, swimming ability, etc.) This is also hard to balance, and a bookkeeping nightmare. It also takes away a lot of the flavor, turning shapechanging into just another buff spell.
Zardnaar 05-29-05, 11:46 PM	I don't mind specific shapechanging spells. I'm sure that theres spells in the Draconomicon for example that lets you shapechange into a Dragon for example. I have no problem with this or Baleful Polymorph. I have major problems with shapechange magic that lets you assume any form you like and grants ex or su abiltities.
Roxlimn 05-29-05, 11:59 PM	Here are two possible simple solutions to the polymorph problem: Treat them exactly as if they were Summon Monster, except that the caster "melds" into the new form, keeping only HP and HD. Same duration, etc., etc. Limit forms on a +X ECL equivalent basis, X being the level of the spell. This means that you can transform into anything with a +4 ECL or less with Polymorph, but with +2 ECL only (and humanoid form) with Alter Self.
Meta_FR_DM 05-30-05, 06:04 AM	I've not had to ban anything. I'm much more likely to modify a given spell and seek input from my players on such house versions until we're all happy. BTW we haven't banned or modified any of the Poly or Shapechange spells. We go by the "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" rule. Which basically means my players expect I'll make just as good use of Shapechange or whatever as they will, for the fun of all. Dave M.
Zardnaar 05-30-05, 06:55 AM	The problem of whats good for the players is good for the DM doesn't really work. If the players cast a combo of spells and get an easy victory they get some xp. If the DM uses those spells he has dead PCs or a TPK on his hands.
Zee'Tah 05-30-05, 09:25 AM	In my games I ban all detect/determine alignment spells. (this dose pose a problem with a PC paladin but we have not run into that yet) The reason for this is that it is much more fun watching the PCs squirm when deciding whether or not to trust someone. (I know that I could just put hide alignment spells on nearly every evil NPC but that just seems silly)
DHP 05-30-05, 10:06 AM	Players had a small objection until I pointed out you could polymorph a Cleric into a Troll for +12 Strength, cast righeous might (+8 strength) and Divine Power for another +6 strength- or 40 strength for a Cleric with 14 natural strength. That doesn't include the other abuses you can put these spells to such as natural armor, awaken abuse, create a vorpal sword abuse, etc etc. The description for enlarge person says that "multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack". I would rule that a cleric that has already had his size increased by polymorph can't get a further increase in size by using righeous might.. Since the +8 str from righeous might is a size bonus he would no get that.. Furthermore the description for polymorph says "the subject gains the str, dex and con scores of the new form...." therefor a cleric would not get +12 str for being polymorphed into a troll but the average str for a trol = 23... the divine power gives +6 str but that's only for 1 round pr lvl wich is not a very long time... so a cleric could have 31 str for 1/round pr lvl... and 23 str for the duration of the polymorph spell...
allenthailand 05-30-05, 10:07 AM	Players had a small objection until I pointed out you could polymorph a Cleric into a Troll for +12 Strength, cast righeous might (+8 strength) and Divine Power for another +6 strength- or 40 strength for a Cleric with 14 natural strength. That doesn't include the other abuses you can put these spells to such as natural armor, awaken abuse, create a vorpal sword abuse, etc etc. Actually, your cleric gains the troll's strength of 23 (as well as its Dex of 14 and its Con of 23), and RM has been officially nerfed in the errata to only give a +4 bonus to str (also +2 to Con, a +2 to natural armor, and DR of 3, 6 or 9). Divine power still gives the +6, but that's an enhancement bonus, which means Bulls Str, Gauntlets of Ogre power, and the like, don't stack with it. What we end up with is a cleric with a 33 Str, a 14 dex, and a 25 Con. The cleric is unarmored now, and effectively weaponless. Let's assume it's a 10th level cleric with a base str and con of 14. The cleric retains his BAB, so he's attacking with a total bonus of +17 to hit with both claws (1d6+11 damage) and +12 to hit with its bite (1d6+5 damage). His AC is now 18 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +7 natural) + any rings of protection he may have been wearing. He gets 50 more hit points from his con boost as well. Those disapear with a dispel, so massive damage + dispel = do not pass go, go directly to DEATH. Keep in mind that the cleric gets none of the cool Troll abilities, either. I'd say you're within your rights to disallow any spellcasting while the cleric is polymorphed, since the vocal cords and body movements are different. Not sure if this is supported by RAW though. Final analysis: not all that crazy really. Now do this to the party fighter, and you'll see some better benefit (though some tradeoff as well, what with the loss of weapon and armor).
DHP 05-30-05, 10:11 AM	create a vorpal sword abuse, etc etc. how do you create a vorpal sword through polymorphing? You can't make magic items with polymorph any object can you?
Count Arioch the 28th 05-30-05, 10:15 AM	Incidentally, what does shivering touch do? I'm not sure what book it's in. Don't tell me everything, as that's a CoC violation, just give me the gist.
DHP 05-30-05, 10:18 AM	The cleric is unarmored now, and effectively weaponless. Alter self description: "when the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional." He changed size for becoming a troll so the armor would melt into the form because he is to big to wear it, but he would still have his weapon altough it would be too small for the troll to use and would give -2 penalty to attack rolls for being wrong size
Derren S. 05-30-05, 10:27 AM	Incidentally, what does shivering touch do? I'm not sure what book it's in. Don't tell me everything, as that's a CoC violation, just give me the gist. Its a 2nd level spell in Frostburn that does stackable dex damage (and not too few of it)with a touch and no save. It can with a good roll render nearly anything helpless with one casting, but for that there are lesser rods of maximize.
obrysii 05-30-05, 10:28 AM	I banned Temporal Acceleration, because it was allowing the Wilder in our party to become the only one who needed to even start fighting, since he was able to keep up the raw damage-doing until he ran out of power points (500+ damage, I believe).
BW0222 05-30-05, 10:40 AM	Zardnaar, I often ban non-core books wholesale since a lot of the classes and spells haven't received the same level of playtesting and/or balance as the core books -- and in some cases are rather broken. However, there are alternatives to outright banning a spell. First, you can restrict it and/or apply specific training rules. Alter-self may exist within your world, it is just rare. Only a few NPCs know the spell and/or are willing to teach it. Second, do take the time to read the spells, FAQs, etc. carefully. In a lot of cases where spells look overpowered, there are often significant restrictions within them. Third, you can be brutal on rulings for it. For example, alter self and polymorph use the word 'familiar' in the description. That is up to the DM to decide how much knowledge of a creature one needs to be familiar with it. Just rule you need to study a live creature for 8 hours per hit dice. Readying about it in a book or hearing stories isn't good enough to be familiar with the form. This alone prevents most of the abusive aspects of the spell. Wizards don't polymorph into hydra's because they are awefully hard to capture and study for 5 hours. Immediately, the number of forms is strictly limited. Forth, I wouldn't waste a lot of time on high-level spells. Polymorph any object and shapechange for example. All high-level spells are overpowered and open to abuse. It's hard to say shapechange is anymore broken than time stop.
PrinceAzar 05-30-05, 10:44 AM	Shivering touch is a touch spell that DRASTICALLY lowers the opponents DEX, and it is hard to resist.
Steely Glint 05-30-05, 03:31 PM	It is not a good idea to allow broken (overpowered) abilities in the game, whether or not the PCs are threatened with death for using them. Using the same cheesy tactics that players use does not make the game balanced, it causes one of two things: The campaign ends. A TPK is caused, or maybe one PC lives. If the campaign villians continue to use the cheesy tactics, this will happen repeatedly. Once a BBEG knows the PCs are the ones messing with his plans, he takes five minutes out of his busy schedule to teleport ambush them while they sleep. Campaign over. The campaign world does not make sense. For some reason, characters do not use abilities that allow them to easily win. In the real world, people will do anything to get ahead, and intelligent people in a game will do the same. Enforcing familiarity for the shapechanging spells does reduce their power somewhat, but it restricts the types of enemies that you can throw against your PCs. It's also a stealth nerf that hurts the PCs without telling them beforehand, something that I find quite annoying as a player. I want to know what an ability will make me capable of doing when I select it, not have its power subject to random chance or DM's whim. The polymorph spells are not nearly as ripe for abuse as they were in 3.0, but they're still quite powerful. Teleport spells on the other hand, are campaign breaking if used to their fullest extent. Teleport ambushes are absolutely deadly (combine with scry), and the spell series also totally negates dungeons, castles, and other structures that would otherwise provide an entire adventure worth of encounters. I changed teleport into three spells: a tactical teleport for which you must have line of sight to your destination, a retreat teleport like word of recall (now available to wiz/sor), and a system of portals located in major cities to speed up high level movement somewhat.
Meta_FR_DM 05-30-05, 05:21 PM	If the players cast a combo of spells and get an easy victory they get some xp. If the DM uses those spells he has dead PCs or a TPK on his hands. But that's the game, right? Dave M.
Edymnion 05-30-05, 05:33 PM	Heh, of course Hypnotise and Astral Projection are still the two most broken spells in the book, IMO. ;) (and yes, I'm dead serious)
Steely Glint 05-30-05, 05:33 PM	But that's the game, right? Dave M. Yeah, that's a real fun game. :P
Meta_FR_DM 05-30-05, 06:22 PM	Heh, of course Hypnotise and Astral Projection are still the two most broken spells in the book, IMO. ;) (and yes, I'm dead serious) I think the problem with Astral Projection isn't that is't broken, it's that the way the spell is worded makes it awfully easy for rules-lawyery types to read it literally and run rampant. It's the "what it doesn't say" party they break. IMO, of course. Yeah, that's a real fun game. What, you expected to win all the time? ;) Dave M.
Jaid 05-30-05, 07:10 PM	what, does hypnotise still stack with itself or something? i can't believe they would have left that loophole in... did they?
Count Arioch the 28th 05-30-05, 09:18 PM	What, you expected to win all the time? Dave M. Edymnion didn't say what you're responding to.
allenthailand 05-30-05, 09:30 PM	Third, you can be brutal on rulings for it. For example, alter self and polymorph use the word 'familiar' in the description. That is up to the DM to decide how much knowledge of a creature one needs to be familiar with it. Just rule you need to study a live creature for 8 hours per hit dice. Readying about it in a book or hearing stories isn't good enough to be familiar with the form. This alone prevents most of the abusive aspects of the spell. Wizards don't polymorph into hydra's because they are awefully hard to capture and study for 5 hours. Immediately, the number of forms is strictly limited. Clever players will find several ways around this. A few divinations are really all you need to find a hydra, esp when you can teleort to every major city in the campaign world and do some gathering of information. You can cast overland flight and just hover over the hydra, just out of it's reach for pretty much as long as you want (assuming you don't need to do it all at once). Dominate Monster works well too. Suprisingly, Wizards becoming Hydras aren't all that deadly, since they retain the terrible BAB. The last time the wizard in my campaign tried it, he had to roll 20s to hit.
Shatteredtower 05-30-05, 09:51 PM	Clever players will find several ways around this. A few divinations are really all you need to find a hydra, esp when you can teleort to every major city in the campaign world and do some gathering of information. You can cast overland flight and just hover over the hydra, just out of it's reach for pretty much as long as you want (assuming you don't need to do it all at once). Dominate Monster works well too. All good points, though a DM is still within reason to require an all-or-nothing Knowledge check. A choker is at least a DC 33 Knowledge (dungeoneering) check for example: base 13 (3 HD) +20 (improved grab, constrict, darkvision, and quickness) -- some might require an extra +5 for that exceptional reach. Most of those aren't so hard by the time you can cast shape change, of course, but you've still got to prepare them. On the other hand, good luck with a balor (DC 85 for a Knowledge [the planes] check, or DC 75 if your DM considers the immunities and energy resistance each one category, rather than two), for example, if you read this interpretation of familiarity and Knowledge checks to go hand in hand, for example. A generous DM using that interpretation might allow you to assume guise but not abilities in cases like this. Some might be a little less generous and allow even that only with a check equal to the creature's HD + 10. It doesn't fix the spell, but it is a fast method for handling the question of familiarity and makes use of the rules for Knowledge skills.
jaelis 05-30-05, 09:59 PM	how do you create a vorpal sword through polymorphing? You can't make magic items with polymorph any object can you? Balors have a called out special ability that says "Every balor carries a +1 vorpal longsword that looks like a flame or a bolt of lightning." Evidently, if they give their sword away, then they automatically create a new one via this ability. When you use shapechange, you acquire the supernatural abilities of the target creature. Thus, you can generate an unlimited number of vorpal swords. No DM would ever let this actually work, it's just an example of the RAW abuses that are possible. jaelis
The WarOverlord 05-30-05, 10:33 PM	Any other DMs here ban spells from certain books? Apart from saying no you can't have access to XYZ book I've banned the following spells from my game. Shivering Touch (players agreed with me on this one) Wood Rot (We're in a seafaring game and as written this spell can compltely shut down anything made out of wood with an AC of 5 or less with no size limit. A Galleon for example) Alter Self Polymorph Polymorph Any Object Shapechange All to powerul/broken for my games. Players had a small objection until I pointed out you could polymorph a Cleric into a Troll for +12 Strength, cast righeous might (+8 strength) and Divine Power for another +6 strength- or 40 strength for a Cleric with 14 natural strength. That doesn't include the other abuses you can put these spells to such as natural armor, awaken abuse, create a vorpal sword abuse, etc etc. Well in the plot of the Game world/Campaign you can 1) The Magical spells in question are still availible but don't work as planned for hose PC's that are not native to that Campaign world that gated or plane hopped into it. Natives don't know the spells period. Example: A "Teleport" spell turning into a "Decapitate Target" spell causing instant decapitation as body parts are scattered about a 10' foot radiace and, though still "living", the PC is incompasitated until all the body parts are brought back together and dipell magic or Heal is cast 2) The magical spells are still in the PC Spellbook or on the scroll but they can't be memorized or cast in that World/campaign because they simply don't work in that World/Campaign Example: Trying to Memorize Polymorph just doesn't work, and casting the spell from a scroll or device has "no effect" and the scroll or device does not disapear or lose a charge. 3) Spell is memorizable and castable but "fizzles out" with no explanation why.....most will think that it's a "no Magic Area" or a Magic spell restricted area.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-30-05, 11:28 PM	I don't agree with banning the shapechanging spells. PaO needs to be fixed and Poly needs to be folded into one and restricted, but outright banning is too much, I think. The only spells I think need banning are the alignment detects and MDJ, which I think is the duty of any DM with a long term campaign.
1dndfanatic 05-30-05, 11:45 PM	you can only change into what you have killed
Meta_FR_DM 05-31-05, 03:25 AM	Edymnion didn't say what you're responding to. Gotcha. That's what I get for responding to two people in one post, I suppose. Dave M.
Kodus 05-31-05, 01:51 PM	The problem of whats good for the players is good for the DM doesn't really work. If the players cast a combo of spells and get an easy victory they get some xp. If the DM uses those spells he has dead PCs or a TPK on his hands. Exactly :) Nothing wrong with that. Next time maybe they will counterspell/dispell magic!
Endarire 05-31-05, 02:06 PM	Assuming I am reading hypnotism correctly, I see no obvious abuses. Where do they lie? -EE
Steely Glint 05-31-05, 02:12 PM	Exactly :) Nothing wrong with that. Next time maybe they will counterspell/dispell magic! As I do with many posts of this nature, I'll assume you're being facetious. Nearly all characters have to sleep (or trance) some time during the day. With scry and teleport, it is extremely easy for a villian to attack them during that period with a bunch of his allies. There is no way even an equal level party will win this encounter. Since it takes so few resources, the BBEG can spend five minutes every night doing this to a new party of adventures who have been messing with his hordes, attacking his mining operation, etc. Round 1. Scry. Round 2. Teleport self and several minions (even normal orcs will do) into the same area as the party (surprise round). Round 3. Minions Coup-de-Grace sleeping party. The BBEG can teleport out immediately if he wants to, so there is absolutely no risk to himself. Round 4. Most of the party is dead, though the watch may still be alive. He has to sleep sometime... With the standard rules in 3.5, spellcasting villians (and good guys) would have to be idiots not to do this every day. Any campaign will completely break down if you allow this kind of tactic. Why bother developing an intricate character if he will die the first time you mess with the bad guy's plan? Alternatively, how can you do evil deeds if high level good mages will pop into your room and kill you the moment you do? It is possible to play a game by just ignoring completely broken tactics and pretending they don't exist. I'd rather fix them and have a coherent game world.
smrtgmp 05-31-05, 06:16 PM	Scrying isnt exactly automatic. There are several methods one can employ to foil it (nondetection and mindblank spring instantly to mind). The fact that it allows a save means its also less than 100% reliable. Furthermore, unless the individual casting the spell is intimately familiar with the target and has some sort of a link to him, the spell has a decent chance of failure. Combine that with the Delay Teleport spells from CA and the old scy-and-die tactics become rather dangerous to attempt. If you let something work every time, you're not doing a great job of DMing. The fact of the matter is that the world evolves, and if scy and die is a standart tactic, steps will be taken to counter it. If you let the PCs exist in a vacume, and dont let enemies adapt to their tactics, then yes, your job as DM will be miserable. For the record, I dont like banning spells. If something is disruptive, I change it until I think its balanced. This takes a bit more work that a simple banning, but it makes things more fun IMO. In my experience a flat out "no" should generally be avoided (there are of course situations when a no is unavoidable).
Steely Glint 05-31-05, 06:47 PM	The key with the teleport ambush is that it requires so few resources that the BBEG can use it against low level parties the first time they mess with him. This means they are very likely to fail their Will save, and if they succeed... who cares? He can just try again the next day. I don't think a group of 5th level adventurers can prepare adequate defenses against a high level wizard or cleric, no matter how smart they are. If used wisely, the teleport ambush will be used before defenses could possibly be prepared. They key is that it costs the BBEG almost nothing to do this. This means that he can do it every day without a large expenditure of time or resources. The chance of failure is irrelevant, because their is little to no penalty for failure. If you let something work every time, you're not doing a great job of DMing. The fact of the matter is that the world evolves, and if scy and die is a standart tactic, steps will be taken to counter it. If you let the PCs exist in a vacume, and dont let enemies adapt to their tactics, then yes, your job as DM will be miserable. For the record, I dont like banning spells. If something is disruptive, I change it until I think its balanced. This takes a bit more work that a simple banning, but it makes things more fun IMO. In my experience a flat out "no" should generally be avoided (there are of course situations when a no is unavoidable). For the teleport ambush example, I changed teleport so that it cannot be used for this purpose. If something is legal by the rules, and it would work nearly every time, but your NPCs do not use it, they are not being played correctly. I do not advocate abusing the rules as DM, I advocate fixing them. Telling your PCs that NPCs will use the same broken tactics is not a solution to anything. Alter self, polymorph, and baneful polymorph can be fixed in 3.5, but polymorph any object and shapechange are still pretty abusive.
smrtgmp 05-31-05, 07:04 PM	But it wouldnt work eveytime. And it does use resources. It uses a 4th and a 5th level spell. And why would someone use such tactics, potentially puting themselves in danger, to go after some low level characters that dont pose much of a threat when they could send their lackies instead? Now granted, once they put a serious dent in someones plans, it becomes more likely that more powerful enemies will come looking for them. But generally speaking the BBEG probably has more important things to worry about (such as running their evil empire) than low level PCs. Furthermore, teleport isnt the most accurate spell in existance, and viewing someone with scry isnt going to give you a great chance to teleport to their location. Not only that, but the modifiers in place with scrying make it very difficult to find a creature you are unfamiliar with. Unless the BBEG has been on hand everytime the PCs have tangled with his minions (which is unlikely), chances are he wont have more than second-hand knowledge on them, especially since most of said minions are unlikely to survive an enounter with the PCs.
Soulcatcher 05-31-05, 08:58 PM	I think we're getting a little off topic.. Scry-n-Die is a way to quickly end a campaign, and if done enough, players. Have fun DM'ing without them. It may be logical, but we're talking about Dragons and Wizards here.. Star Wars would have been a five minute film if we followed this logic. You have to cut the players SOME slack, or the story tends to end quickly. As far as banned spells : I limited our players to the PHB until they had a prestiege class, and then only spells feats from that book. That tended to end the Cleric using spells/feats for Oriental characters when they've never been to the east. This limits some of the abuse. We also have to agree to any feats not in the PHB ( we have 3 DM's ). I have more problems with some of the feats, such as ranged dis-arm...
Steely Glint 05-31-05, 11:47 PM	I do not use teleport ambushes, and I do not want my players using them. I was merely pointing out that it is an extremely easy way for mid to high level wizards to crush their opponents with almost no risk. I understand fully that it will end the campaign, and it would anger the players. Rather than just ignoring this glaring coherency problem, I modified the spells so they cannot be abused in this way. The health of a long-term campaign (especially with creative players who are always on the lookout for powerful tactics like this) depends on fixing (or banning) broken abilities. Remember through everything I say that I am not interested in actually using these tactics against PCs, I am interested in running a coherent campaign in which everyone uses their abilities as optimally as they can. But it wouldnt work eveytime. And it does use resources. It uses a 4th and a 5th level spell. And why would someone use such tactics, potentially puting themselves in danger, to go after some low level characters that dont pose much of a threat when they could send their lackies instead? I would say that ending one potential future threat every night is a very good way to spend your resources, especially considering it only takes a few minutes. He still has 23 hours and 55 minutes per day in which to take care of his scheming, sacrificing virgins and/or laughing maniacally. Bardic tales are undoubtedly full of stories in which villians are defeated by the rag-tag band of adventurers they considered no threat. A high level wizard probably has a few mid level wizard underlings who are perfectly capable of using the same tactics. If done properly, they can teleport away while the PCs would still be rubbing the grit from their eyes if they weren't trying to hold their intestines in. Even a mid level (10th-12th) level party would have to spend a lot of resources to make themselves resistant to this kind of attack, and they're practically legendary. Now granted, once they put a serious dent in someones plans, it becomes more likely that more powerful enemies will come looking for them. But generally speaking the BBEG probably has more important things to worry about (such as running their evil empire) than low level PCs. I would say dealing with the people who attack your underlings would be top priority in running your evil empire. As soon as the party begins to meddle, a BBEG capable of peforming a scry&die should do so. Furthermore, teleport isnt the most accurate spell in existance, and viewing someone with scry isnt going to give you a great chance to teleport to their location. Not only that, but the modifiers in place with scrying make it very difficult to find a creature you are unfamiliar with. Unless the BBEG has been on hand everytime the PCs have tangled with his minions (which is unlikely), chances are he wont have more than second-hand knowledge on them, especially since most of said minions are unlikely to survive an enounter with the PCs. If he misses with the teleport, the PCs are none the wiser. He can teleport home or give it another try. A +5 modifer to the Will save for second hand knowledge won't do much for the party tank, who probably has a +1 or +2 Will save. As Soulcatcher said, this is getting a little off-topic. I am done discussing the effectiveness of teleport ambushes; if you're not convinced of their incredible lethality and low risk by now, you probably never will be. If you and your players are content to simply ignore the tactic, it is certainly within your rights to do so.
smrtgmp 06-01-05, 12:31 AM	I never said it wasnt effective, I just said it wasnt as fool proof as you seem to think it is.
Steely Glint 06-01-05, 01:13 AM	I don't think it's foolproof, it's just that the cost of failure is so low that it doesn't even matter when you fail. Anyway, that's enough out of me for now. :P
Link182 06-01-05, 01:24 AM	I'd love to use Mords Disjunction to thin out my players magic items but its just far to cruel. We banned that and that old drown spell. I think Drown is now an 8th level spell
Keenath 06-01-05, 01:41 AM	Banned spells? Well... In my games, I don't generally ban core stuff. In 3.0, I talked with the players and we decided -- as a group -- to ban the Poly series. They don't take the spell and I don't use it against them. It was too much of a headache to deal with at the time. The 3.5 version works wonderfully, though. I'm very happy with the changes and haven't had any major problems. (The one I did have was not terrible, and my own fault -- I forgot Polymorph means you can turn into a small bird and therefore escape through a tiny window that lets out onto a sheer cliff. Darn it, that was just supposed to be SCENERY!) Now, as for non-core material, I don't ban it as such, but my line is this: If you want to take something from non-core, you bring it to me FIRST. Magic items, spells, feats, or anything else; it comes to me before it goes on your character sheet. And if I say no, don't start whining; I may not think the spell is BROKEN when I refuse. Sometimes it's just to save me headaches later on -- strange movement modes, bizarre damage types -- or I may just disagree with the whole feel of a spell. For example, I really dislike the recent influx of Swift spells that give you some other spell's effect for one turn as a swift action. In short, I don't normally "ban spells", as I think of it -- I just don't give players a carte blanche to walk in with absolutely anything they see in a book. Maybe you see that as a ban, but I just think it's campaign control. Edit: Oh, that's right... I forgot. We did ban Disjunction. Same as with 3.0 Poly -- I agree not to MDJ their gear, and they agree not to do it to my BBEG.
Mellowship Slinky 06-01-05, 02:36 AM	Wood Rot (We're in a seafaring game and as written this spell can compltely shut down anything made out of wood with an AC of 5 or less with no size limit. A Galleon for example) I think banning this spell from your campaign was a bad idea. Any game world with mildy high magic would have things like a group of mages making a buisness of scribing special runes onto ships that would give them benifits like resistance to fire, capsizing, or rotting. The runes could require renewal every year. This would give you interesting plot hooks: The wrightmages are losing buisness to a rival group who is undercutting their prices by more than half, there are a large number of ships who, instead of recieving real runes, just have scribbles on them an a Nystul's Magic Aura. Is there a relation between these happenings? A group of pirates is being led by a powerful mage who is able to dispel the runes, the royal navy has hired the adventurers to capture/assasinate him.
Zardnaar 06-01-05, 03:24 AM	I think banning this spell from your campaign was a bad idea. Any game world with mildy high magic would have things like a group of mages making a buisness of scribing special runes onto ships that would give them benifits like resistance to fire, capsizing, or rotting. The runes could require renewal every year. This would give you interesting plot hooks: The wrightmages are losing buisness to a rival group who is undercutting their prices by more than half, there are a large number of ships who, instead of recieving real runes, just have scribbles on them an a Nystul's Magic Aura. Is there a relation between these happenings? A group of pirates is being led by a powerful mage who is able to dispel the runes, the royal navy has hired the adventurers to capture/assasinate him. Theres rules for that already. However magical defenses are often woth more than the ship itself. Not every boat owner should need to fork out 3000gp+ just to protect themselves vs basic spells.
smrtgmp 06-01-05, 04:06 AM	I don't think it's foolproof, it's just that the cost of failure is so low that it doesn't even matter when you fail. What level BBEG are we talking about here? He's so high in level that the price of failure of such tactics is negligable but the PCs in question arent even high enough to use nondetection? Any time you pit PCs of 4th level and lower against those capable of scry and die tactics they will die. That has nothing to do with the tactics, and everything to do with the fact that the enemy is several CRs higer than the party level. Its easy to kill PCs with any baddie that has a CR 5+ higher than the group. I'll leave it at that. Happy gaming.
Mellowship Slinky 06-01-05, 04:54 AM	Theres rules for that already. However magical defenses are often woth more than the ship itself. Not every boat owner should need to fork out 3000gp+ just to protect themselves vs basic spells. The cheapest boat in the DMG (rowboat nonwithstanding) is the keelboat, which costs 3000gp, I don't see such guarding spells costing more than 1000gp per enhancement (renewed each year), and most merchants who can buy a 20,000gp ship should be doing enough buisness that spending 3,000gp a year to protect their investment is worth it. Besides, have you also banned shape wood (2nd level druid spell)? Druid wild shapes into a dolphin, shapes a 10' diameter hole in the base of the ship.
Zardnaar 06-01-05, 05:14 AM	Most ships are to big for shape wood to effect. We're using the seafarers handbook and ships can be enchanted the same as armor- +1 AC = 1000gp, +2 4000gp etc or double cost for the big ships.
Link182 06-01-05, 05:19 AM	Any run afoul of that Blizzard spell or whatever it's called from Frostburn? I don't rember the specifics but it can turn a whole lot of people into solid ice. I may ban that turkey
The WarOverlord 06-01-05, 07:19 AM	Balors have a called out special ability that says "Every balor carries a +1 vorpal longsword that looks like a flame or a bolt of lightning." Evidently, if they give their sword away, then they automatically create a new one via this ability. When you use shapechange, you acquire the supernatural abilities of the target creature. Thus, you can generate an unlimited number of vorpal swords. No DM would ever let this actually work, it's just an example of the RAW abuses that are possible. jaelis Your Pc Wakes up after an apparent ambush in some sort of dank dark dungeoun and when your PC moves. notices that a thin but strong silvery like chain and shackels are on both wrist, both ankles, and the neck "Don't Bother trying to Shape change, it won't work as long as you are in contact with shifterbane silver....which is what your shackles are made of" ~ Werewolf prisoner in human form from across dungeon.
smrtgmp 06-01-05, 08:15 AM	And they chained a wizard/sorcerer capable of casting shapechange how? Even if they were chained in such a fashion, chances are they would have some other means of escape. Given all the levels you had to go through to gain access to shapechange, in all likelyhood you have a few other tricks up your sleeve.
MrkGrismer 06-01-05, 10:46 AM	I don't ban the polys either, afterall you can't even use the spell-like abilities of the form... As far as scrying, detect scry is a darn useful spell, as is false vision. Scry itself also does not have a very long duration, so unless it is off a magic item it does not mean 24/7 survellience.
Steely Glint 06-01-05, 02:48 PM	What level BBEG are we talking about here? He's so high in level that the price of failure of such tactics is negligable but the PCs in question arent even high enough to use nondetection? If the scry fails, he's out one 4th level spell. If the teleport fails, he's out one 4th level spell and two 5th level spells. If both succeed, it's a TPK or close to it. At mid levels (9th-11th), this is very effective against a party of equal levelled characters as well, unless they spend 12 (twelve) 3rd level spells and 600 gp worth of diamond dust (!) per day ensuring they're always under the effects of nondetection. False vision costs 250 gp in materials per cast. Detect scrying will help, but only as long as the wizard or bard who cast it is awake. Detect scrying also doesn't stop the BBEG from teleporting in and wasting the party anyway (fully buffed up, of course), it just gives the PC one round to wake everyone up. None of these really stop the scryer completely. There is no reason for the BBEG to let PCs even get to mid levels, if they tangle with him before that. He may even have a small group of wizards around 10th level for "threat control." Their sole duty is to teleport ambush groups of adventurers that mess with him. Any time you pit PCs of 4th level and lower against those capable of scry and die tactics they will die. That has nothing to do with the tactics, and everything to do with the fact that the enemy is several CRs higer than the party level. Its easy to kill PCs with any baddie that has a CR 5+ higher than the group. The fact that scry&die brings high level characters easily (a few minutes time, minor resources for a high level character) into contact with low level characters is one of it's main problems! We agree that this is bad! I do not want this to happen in my campaign any more than you want it to happen in yours! This is the logical outcome of allowing this tactic, and I want to be able to have high level characters scheming behind the scenes even in my low level campaign, which eventually become a high level campaign- at which point the PCs will finally encounter the schemers. I keep saying that I'm not going to continue this discussion because it's offtopic, but I think that has been shown to be false. :P I've decided that it's not offtopic, but the very root of the reason why one should ban or modify spells. I think it is absolutely critical to fix broken things instead of just ignoring them or waving them away with flavor, and that is the point at the core of my argument.
MrkGrismer 06-01-05, 04:37 PM	Mords Private Sanctum Also note that False Vision or M. Private Sanctum can be cast as soon as Detect Scrying detects something, and it detects an attempt so it alerts before the save is even made. M. Private Sanctum does have a long casting time, however so it is not as useful. However any 9th level caster that can't come up with 250gp for a False Vision isn't worth attacking anyways. Besides, will saves aren't that difficult to make.
Derren S. 06-01-05, 04:43 PM	Except of course the scrying happens when you are asleep, False Vision won't help you then.
Tribal 06-01-05, 04:57 PM	Ok I've noticed a few things in reading the posts here. The whole thing with the BBEG seems fairly rigid in the thinking behind it. It sounds to me like like the same BBEG is always behind everything that the players do from level one untill they retire. While thats perfectly ok to do but having EVERY campaign run that way is a little dull. Why not have lower level BBEGs that have nothing to do with certian higher level BBEGs? Another point is how does the BBEG learn about the PCs so quickly? So the PCs disrupt a slave trading ring run by one of the BBEG's minions. The PC's don't even know the BBEG exists yet and they have caught or killed all those involved in the slave trading. No one is left to give him even second hand knowledge of the PC's (granted their are spells one could use to learn about them in this case) And whats to say he or she even knows the slave trade is going on. Maybe one of his minions', minions', minions was in charge of raising money. That low level dude, in fear for his life uses some of the gold he had been skiming off the top to cover for the fact that his slaver ring has been blown. He never tells his boss who then can't send it on up the chain for the BBEG to learn. Yes you can't use this tactic to often either as it will get stale as well but common...they are the bad guys, they just might lie to their bosses. And thats just one way to explain why BBEG's wouldn't have all the info they need. Now having said all that I also disagree with the whole "whats good for the goose" way of play. I DM'd a campaign that turned into that sort of play and it was disasterous. The game group disolved and friendships were lost. It turned into some Players Vs The DM and DM Vs some Players. Each trying to one up the other. No one had any fun. I also don't like just banning spells but I find that some house rules can be used to make many broken spells less abusable. Really it also comes down to the group you play with. If you get one or 2 players who like to munchkin and abuse ambiguous wording things can get ugly. I'm now playing with a group (as a PC) with very few restrictions and its worked well so far because no one insists on abusing the rules (though to be totally honest a few of the players don't know them well enough to abuse them lol) And speaking of spells that I modify...Poly and shape change need a little bit of work but no where near as much as the 3.0 versions. I also like to rename and give some explanation of Limited Wish and Wish. I change them to Lesser Limited Wish and Greater Limited Wish. Wish really is limited in what it can do. Changing the name makes players realize this. It keeps them from fantasizing about what they will do when they can cast it. I explain that it is very limited in what it can do and can't do. Of course you can't cover every situation but this helps to some degree.
Steely Glint 06-01-05, 05:04 PM	Ah yes, private sanctum is a new spell in 3.5, right? Anyway, it actually provides a pretty good defense against scrying for 9th level or higher characters. Just cast it whenever you rest. I guess the BBEG may actually have to get his hands dirty if he wants to take out mid-level PCs by attacking them when they're on the move. False vision sucks compared to private sanctum. My point about it referred to casting it every night, as opposed to using up 4th and 5th level slots and keeping your wizard up all night... which is completely untenable. Private sanctum almost convinced me that scrying could be defeated. Unfortunately, I then realized it just makes it all the more important that your wizard villians kill the PCs before they reach 9th level. Besides, will saves aren't that difficult to make.That is a pretty meaningless statement. In the standard 4 character party, two of the characters (rogue and fighter) will probably have weak Will saves. Even with iron will and a 14 Wisdom, they'll still fail a most of the time. And remember, failure to scry doesn't cost the BBEG very much. I don't like the idea that everyone has to be extremely paranoid to survive. In my opinion, it takes a lot of the fun out of a campaign if characters have to be on guard all the time and can't ever kick back for a cold one. Scry&die isn't a heroic way to die, and it isn't a heroic way to win. I think it's bad for a campaign for both mechanical and flavor reasons.
Steely Glint 06-01-05, 05:24 PM	Ok I've noticed a few things in reading the posts here. The whole thing with the BBEG seems fairly rigid in the thinking behind it. It sounds to me like like the same BBEG is always behind everything that the players do from level one untill they retire.In my example I suggested that the PCs were 5th level before they interfered with the BBEG's plan, possibly without even realizing it. That gives four full levels to deal with punk bandits and small tribes of kobolds/goblins/orcs. When your PCs are breaking up small time criminal organizations, I'd say there's a good chance at least one of them has ties to a large criminal syndicate, an evil wizard's cabal, a powerful evil cult, or some other organization capable of easily dispatching them with the scry&die. Another point is how does the BBEG learn about the PCs so quickly?It doesn't matter if they find out a few hours or a few weeks after the meddling takes place. As long as the PCs are 8th level or lower or do not take the precaution of casting Mord's private sanctum every night, they can be easily taken out with the scry&die. Unless of course all these evil organizations are so incompetent that they can't get their intelligence gathering straight. I agree with the most of the other stuff you say; I had some problems with haste and polymorph in the first 3.0 campaign I ran.
MrkGrismer 06-01-05, 05:56 PM	They only need scrolls of private sanctum, then they can cast it well below 9th. Why would a wizard even have reason to scry on characters that are under 9th level anyways? Do they have t-shirts that say, "I'm a PC, I'm going to ruin your plans"? The sensor for scry can be seen with see invisibility as well. A spell which is relatively cheap to make permenent. As far as the will save: Scry is 4th level wiz, requiring 7th level caster and at least a 17 int. DC for the save being 17. But characters get +5 to the save if the scryer has secondhand knowledge of the target, and +10 to the save if the caster has no knowledge. A 7 save is not difficult to make.
MrkGrismer 06-01-05, 05:56 PM	They only need scrolls of private sanctum, then they can cast it well below 9th. Why would a wizard even have reason to scry on characters that are under 9th level anyways? Do they have t-shirts that say, "I'm a PC, I'm going to ruin your plans"? The sensor for scry can be seen with see invisibility as well. A spell which is relatively cheap to make permenent. As far as the will save: Scry is 4th level wiz, requiring 7th level caster and at least a 17 int. DC for the save being 17. But characters get +5 to the save if the scryer has secondhand knowledge of the target, and +10 to the save if the caster has no knowledge. A 7 save is not difficult to make.
Adrez Nesnsid 06-01-05, 05:59 PM	Balors have a called out special ability that says "Every balor carries a +1 vorpal longsword that looks like a flame or a bolt of lightning." Evidently, if they give their sword away, then they automatically create a new one via this ability. When you use shapechange, you acquire the supernatural abilities of the target creature. Thus, you can generate an unlimited number of vorpal swords. No DM would ever let this actually work, it's just an example of the RAW abuses that are possible. jaelis Actually, it strikes me more as a common misinterpretation of the rules as written, i.e. if having the vorpal sword is an ability intrinsic to being a balor, than the balor can't give its sword away any more than a mind flayer can give you its psionic abilities. (by the way, I can cite a precedent for this interpretation of racial abilities which give a creature posession of certain specific magical weapons. Go into the SRD, open the file "Epic Monsters (G-W)" then type "LeShay Weapons" into the find text tool on your word processor and read the entry that comes up. I cite that entry as the precedent for my interpretation of the balor's vorpal sword ability)
Steely Glint 06-01-05, 06:05 PM	They only need scrolls of private sanctum, then they can cast it well below 9th.If your characters have enough money to spend 1,125 gp per night on sanctum scrolls, they can go ahead and do so.
MrkGrismer 06-01-05, 06:11 PM	If your characters have enough money to spend 1,125 gp per night on sanctum scrolls, they can go ahead and do so. They don't need to use one unless they have reason to believe they are being scried upon.
MrkGrismer 06-01-05, 06:14 PM	Except of course the scrying happens when you are asleep, False Vision won't help you then. PCs that don't set up a watch deserve to die. And False Vision works fine while you are asleep, read the spell.
Steely Glint 06-01-05, 06:23 PM	They don't need to use one unless they have reason to believe they are being scried upon.I've already been over this. The PCs will be TP ambushed before they even realize they need the protection. Even if they keep a scroll in reserve, the spell takes 10 minutes to cast. They are dead in one round. PCs that don't set up a watch deserve to die. And False Vision works fine while you are asleep, read the spell.Yeah, it's real fun (and heroic) to have to set up a watch even when staying in an inn. Or your own castle/hideout. Not to mention that a watch will do basically nothing against a well planned TP ambush. The party still gets TPK'ed! False vision sucks, unless you want to spend 250 gp every night to cast it. That adds up pretty quickly.
MrkGrismer 06-01-05, 07:07 PM	I've already been over this. The PCs will be TP ambushed before they even realize they need the protection. Even if they keep a scroll in reserve, the spell takes 10 minutes to cast. They are dead in one round. Uhm, False Vision has a casting time of 1 standard action. Private Sanctum takes 10 minutes, but then again it also has a duration of 24 hours. Which means that anybody that can cast it can cast it every day. The PCs can't be TP ambushed by somebody that doesn't know about them, so if somebody has reason to know about them then they have reason to make preparations. See invisibility, Detect scrying, False Vision, Private Sanctum, etc. Yeah, it's real fun (and heroic) to have to set up a watch even when staying in an inn. The characters might not even have to worry about it when staying at an inn, depending on the world. For instance, in Silverymoon (Forgotten Realms) there isn't going to be any BBEG teleporting into the inns, since TP is banned by the Mythal. Or your own castle/hideout. Are we still talking under 9th level here? Because it seems like you are straying. Not to mention that a watch will do basically nothing against a well planned TP ambush. The party still gets TPK'ed! This has to be one of the funniest things I have read in a while. Roughly akin to, "Not to mention that no matter what the players do it will do basically nothing against an Epic Dragon." Any "well planned TP ambush" that guarantees a TPK'ed is streaching suspension of disbelief, since it would require resources beyond what anybody should be willing to expend to 'deal' with a group of petty adventurers. False vision sucks, unless you want to spend 250 gp every night to cast it. That adds up pretty quickly. False Vision can be cast as a standard action (or faster if the caster has a rod of quicken) as soon as Detect Scrying goes off. Teleport and Greater Teleport have the exact same casting time, and both require the destination to have been at least viewed once. False Vision creates a false destination within less then 6 seconds, foiling any teleport. Of course as the DM you can choose to be unrealistic and have 30th level people randomly teleporting around the world killing peasants for fun, but that seems like crazy world to me.
Steely Glint 06-01-05, 07:22 PM	...snip...I have already commented on many of the points you brought up, please go back and read my previous posts. To answer several of your specific points (unfortunately repeating some of the stuff you seem to have ignored): I was referring to private sanctum as having a 10 minute casting time. It is the only spell I consider an adequate defense against scrying, and is available only 9th level and after. The fact that the designers of the FR saw fit to put in specific protections against this show how broken it is. 8th level characters could easily have a small hideout, perhaps a dungeon or something they cleared out. Attacking that example does nothing to further your case. As I have said many times in this thread, the fact that high level characters can wipe out low level characters with minimal effort is the exact problem I see with this tactic! They are not killing peasants. Characters between 5th and 8th level are quite powerful, and pose a real and immediate threat to the operations of an evil organization. A smart wizard kills them before they have the capability to foil his most powerful method of attack.
MrkGrismer 06-01-05, 07:28 PM	As I have said many times in this thread, the fact that high level characters can wipe out low level characters with minimal effort is the exact problem I see with this tactic! If that is the case, you might as well ban D&D, because high level characters can always wipe out low level characters with minimal effort. Banning a couple of spells isn't going to change that. You originally started with the assertation that equal level parties wouldn't stand a chance against scry & tp, then you changed it to groups under 8th level against high level villians (at least 9th level). Sorry, but TP or no TP trying to ambush a group of adventurers with anything that less then 5 EL higher is not a gauranteed TPK. Doing it with more then +5 EL is generally overkill as far as D&D goes.
ammoless056 06-01-05, 07:33 PM	Of course as the DM you can choose to be unrealistic and have 30th level people randomly teleporting around the world killing peasants for fun, but that seems like crazy world to me. Classic Straw Man Argument...the execution is just beautiful...it brings a tear to my eye. *sniff* Anyway, just wanted to say that if I were a 17th level wizard running an evil organization, I would make smiting one 5th level party every night a serious priority. I wouldn't even do it myself...I'd have my wizard cohort do the dirty work for me. Those adventurers may seem weak now, but if you leave them alone they'll soon become strong enough to pose a serious threat.
PoeticJustice 06-01-05, 07:34 PM	Don't want to set up a watch? The answer is hirelings. Offer a couple commoners some gold to watch over you during the night. They get paid for a month's work over the course of a single night, it's cheap, easy, and accessible in any civlized area. Should your sleep be interrupted by some unwanted guests, I'm sure the screams will be enough to rouse you.
Steely Glint 06-01-05, 07:43 PM	If that is the case, you might as well ban D&D, because high level characters can always wipe out low level characters with minimal effort. Banning a couple of spells isn't going to change that. You originally started with the assertation that equal level parties wouldn't stand a chance against scry & tp, then you changed it to groups under 8th level against high level villians (at least 9th level). Sorry, but TP or no TP trying to ambush a group of adventurers with anything that less then 5 EL higher is not a gauranteed TPK. Doing it with more then +5 EL is generally overkill as far as D&D goes.I think you're missing the point of everything I've been saying. My point is that the TP ambush allows BBEGs to spend a minute to kill the party, instead of being forced to trek a hundred miles or whatever. It brings high level characters into conflict with low level ones with a flick of the wrist. I know I would be much less likely to handle some little punks if I had to take a 3 day voyage to do so, instead of 60 seconds with no risk to myself. It also forces you to make every high level opponent of the PCs have some way of protecting themselves against the TP ambush. This means most of them have to be wizards (or sorcerers spending a precious known spell), because only wizards have private sanctum and mind blank (excluding clerics with the protection domain). I originally had forgotten about about Mord's private sanctum, which provides reasonable protections against scry. Of course, any party without a sor/wiz is still meat at any level, as is a party that forgets to cast it while they sleep.
ammoless056 06-01-05, 07:46 PM	Don't want to set up a watch? The answer is hirelings. Offer a couple commoners some gold to watch over you during the night. They get paid for a month's work over the course of a single night, it's cheap, easy, and accessible in any civlized area. Should your sleep be interrupted by some unwanted guests, I'm sure the screams will be enough to rouse you. Peasants have notoriously low will saves, spot/listen checks, and have no spellcasting ability to put up defenses like false vision or detect scrying.
Adrez Nesnsid 06-01-05, 07:51 PM	I think you're missing the point of everything I've been saying. My point is that the TP ambush allows BBEGs to spend a minute to kill the party, instead of being forced to trek a hundred miles or whatever. It brings high level characters into conflict with low level ones with a flick of the wrist. I know I would be much less likely to handle some little punks if I had to take a 3 day voyage to do so, instead of 60 seconds with no risk to myself. However, villians at that much higher of a level probably consider the heroes beneath their notice at that level, unless there's an ancient prophecy or something to tell them otherwise.
djinni 06-01-05, 07:54 PM	A smart wizard kills them before they have the capability to foil his most powerful method of attack. all very good points the only one I have a different opinion about is this one... if that were true then that same wizard would have been killed long ago when he himself was a mere 5-8 level. in addition how many times have you seen in the movies where the good guy gets away because the evil overlord was too cocky? a 30th level character would send his lackies to deal with the players, because he's either too lazy or too uninsterested to take any note at all.
Steely Glint 06-01-05, 08:02 PM	if that were true then that same wizard would have been killed long ago when he himself was a mere 5-8 level.Well, I guess he's just a 6000 year old lich who was the first wizard ever to learn the spells. :P That is the logical outcome in a world where this tactic is allowed; dominance by the first and most ruthless. a 30th level character would send his lackies to deal with the players, because he's either too lazy or too uninsterested to take any note at all.Some of his lackeys are probably high level wizards. They use this tactic to keep the entire world under his control by killing any potential threats. This is not a fun campaign to play. That high level wizard has an Intelligence score over 30. That's so far beyond genius that none of us can really begin to understand it. He is so friggin' smart, he can outsmart a metagamer from within the game. Again, I'm getting a little off track. Even though the 6000 year old lich was a facetious example, I think it is a potential outcome of allowing abuse like this to exist.
Elgonn 06-01-05, 08:27 PM	I'm surprised Steely Glint that your taking so much flak for this. Scry & Die is extremely efficient and should be used by anyone with above average intelligence. Mord's Private Sanctum isn't even that great really. It still doesn't do what the real power of Mind Blank does which is keep your location hidden all day long. It will prevent the most basic scrying but won't stop you from being attacked virtually every night for weeks on end. Fun to run a party out of spells just by preventing the ability to rest.
MrkGrismer 06-01-05, 09:33 PM	... and nobody else notices that nobody seems to be able to get stronger before they and all their friends are 'mysteriously' slaughtered? Such rampant use of scry and teleport simply isn't realistic. As I said before neither the BBEG nor his lackeys would likely have even so much as second hand knowledge of the PCs. PCs being notarious for leaving no survivors. Thus +10 on the will save, and now the PCs are tipped off, and will start using Detect Scry. Scrying for a few minutes a night isn't likely going to give you a good picture of your oponents either. At CL 9 Teleport only transports a total of 4 people, including the caster. Already probably an EL 6 or 7, and most likely defeatable by any competent party of 4 characters at level 6 or better. That is assuming those four people even arrive at the destination (25% of a miss). That is assuming no False Vision, with FV (after a Scry Detection) there is no chance of them arriving on target, and a 7% chance of a mishap. Especially if a previous attempt was failed and the party may decide to fake sleep (and rings of sustance make this highly possible). and if the PCs have merciful weapons then they have lackeys to question.
makeshiftwings 06-01-05, 10:45 PM	Though I can see your point with scry&die, I think the same thing happens when you try and take the effects of any d&d spell on the world to its extreme. Raise Dead and Ressurrection just do not work in a high-magic world. In fact, in any world where there are homicidal psychopaths that can cast Time Stop and Wish, there would never be any 1st level commoners around; survival of the fittest would ensure that only creatures with high spell resistance and magical powers would survive. If you use statted gods, it's even more ridiculous; you just need to make up bizarre unfathomable reasons that the gods sit around all day with this massive power and do absolutely nothing. But... if you're going to try to justify it all, you'll need to use Forgotten Realm's excuse: for every bad guy with ultimate power, there's an equal and opposite good guy with the same ultimate power that is consuming most of his time and energy. So, your BBEG wouldn't really be able to take the time to kill 5th level parties every night, because almost all of his time is spent keeping Elminster away. Or, if your party somehow does pose a threat, good old Elminster would be willing to lend them some good magic items to prevent the bad guy's scry and die. If the bad guy casts Wish, Elminster just casts another Wish to reverse it. Of course, I for one, hate Elminster and the like, so we all try to ignore the logical inconsistencies in the world.
Lord shadow35 06-01-05, 11:11 PM	I don't think that any spells should be banned that are in the players handbook. The standard core rule book 1. And if these spell are so powerful look on the errata, They have been nerfed. shapechange has been nerfed. these rules are the standard rules. It's all is fine if the dm plays it right. STR 12 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 28 Wis 16 Cha 16 Wiz5/Shadow Adept10 3.0 ed DND :cool:
cchopps 06-01-05, 11:30 PM	In the campaign that I just ran there was a Spirit Shaman who took Legion's Snake Swiftness from the Miniatures Handbook. It is only 2nd level on the Druid Spell list and as a Spirit Shaman he could cast it a hell of a lot. It was incredibly dirty and I am thinking of banning it in the next game I run. I may just ban the Miniatures Handbook, most of those spells have been reprinted anyway.
Zardnaar 06-02-05, 01:24 AM	Think of it this way. A particuly clever/insideous BBEG who happens to be a wizard/cleric manages to get to the top of the heap. He/She/It has a cohort who is a bit weaker. This particular BBEG knows the main threat to his power is from other spellcasters so proceeds to kill every single person who can cast a spell. Think Star Wars if the emperor had this type of power. No need to hunt down Skywalker- Vader just casts teleport and presto Lukes dead/captured. In DnD the only logical downside to this is if the BBEG starts to kill Clerics en masse and has multiple churches/gods come after him. A Lich is active 24/7 and can destroy a low level party in a few rounds including the travel time. Thats not even counting any enterprising PC with multiple bags of holding and a teleport spell or 2. All the best counters to Teleport are also higher level and generally require a warded area to hole up in.
MrkGrismer 06-02-05, 07:10 AM	In the campaign that I just ran there was a Spirit Shaman who took Legion's Snake Swiftness from the Miniatures Handbook. It is only 2nd level on the Druid Spell list and as a Spirit Shaman he could cast it a hell of a lot. It was incredibly dirty and I am thinking of banning it in the next game I run. I may just ban the Miniatures Handbook, most of those spells have been reprinted anyway. I don't think Snake's Swiftness (Legion) is all that bad, it only allows all allies in 20-ft radius to make a single additional attack (melee or ranged) in a round. Kind of a mini-haste, but haste gives so much more. The Druid in my game doesn't even cast it anymore.
MrkGrismer 06-02-05, 07:13 AM	Think of it this way. A particuly clever/insideous BBEG who happens to be a wizard/cleric manages to get to the top of the heap. He/She/It has a cohort who is a bit weaker. This particular BBEG knows the main threat to his power is from other spellcasters so proceeds to kill every single person who can cast a spell. Think Star Wars if the emperor had this type of power. No need to hunt down Skywalker- Vader just casts teleport and presto Lukes dead/captured. In DnD the only logical downside to this is if the BBEG starts to kill Clerics en masse and has multiple churches/gods come after him. A Lich is active 24/7 and can destroy a low level party in a few rounds including the travel time. Well the Emporer and Vader didn't even have second hand knowledge of Skywalker, so Skywalker would have gotten +10 on his will save.
Adrez Nesnsid 06-02-05, 08:39 AM	Think of it this way. A particuly clever/insideous BBEG who happens to be a wizard/cleric manages to get to the top of the heap. He/She/It has a cohort who is a bit weaker. This particular BBEG knows the main threat to his power is from other spellcasters so proceeds to kill every single person who can cast a spell. Think Star Wars if the emperor had this type of power. No need to hunt down Skywalker- Vader just casts teleport and presto Lukes dead/captured. In DnD the only logical downside to this is if the BBEG starts to kill Clerics en masse and has multiple churches/gods come after him. A Lich is active 24/7 and can destroy a low level party in a few rounds including the travel time. But a lich also has a limited number of spells per day, some of which need to be saved for fighting off anybody powerful who may show up, advancing evil plans, miscellaneous, and so on.
Lord shadow35 06-02-05, 11:53 AM	and the lich still has to rest to get his spells back. How low level would this party be? there is some low level party's that could take out lich's in there sleep.
ammoless056 06-02-05, 12:25 PM	Well the Emporer and Vader didn't even have second hand knowledge of Skywalker, so Skywalker would have gotten +10 on his will save. After the death star, they know about Luke. Vader senses that he is aboard the station and feels Luke's presence again when he takes it out with torpedoes. At this point, instead of teleporting to Luke and, to use the vernacular, "pwning him up", Vader and the Emperor set up an elaborate trap using Luke's friends as bait. Teleport, in this case, would have had the following ramifications: a) Luke loses. Even if he gets away from Vader, the pair of Sith just scry/teleport again the next day. b) The whole freaking storyline with the enemy having to set up an elaborate trap is gone!!! Movies 5 and 6 become just as terrible as movies 1-3. Again, the ramifications of teleport mean that there would inherently be no opposition. The first spellcaster to develop Scry and Die (tm) simply rules the world.
MrkGrismer 06-02-05, 12:50 PM	After the death star, they know about Luke. Vader senses that he is aboard the station and feels Luke's presence again when he takes it out with torpedoes. Sensing his presence is not good enough for Teleport, obviously. Vader couldn't even find Obi-wan, but had to instead wait by the falcon. Luke had to find Vader on Endor, and did so by turning himself in. As you can see, TP already has the built in safe guard against this type of stuff.
ammoless056 06-02-05, 01:37 PM	Sensing his presence is not good enough for Teleport, obviously. Vader couldn't even find Obi-wan, but had to instead wait by the falcon. Luke had to find Vader on Endor, and did so by turning himself in. As you can see, TP already has the built in safe guard against this type of stuff. You're ignoring the scry aspect of Scry and Die, but I think you're starting to understand its effectiveness. It is a valid point, however, that removing scry, and related magical items, would effectively end this tactic. Personally, I find stories involving scry to be much more interesting than stories involving teleport. Given the choice, I would prefer the removal of the latter, rather than the former.
mwynne 06-02-05, 01:45 PM	Teleport spells on the other hand, are campaign breaking if used to their fullest extent. Teleport ambushes are absolutely deadly (combine with scry), and the spell series also totally negates dungeons, castles, and other structures that would otherwise provide an entire adventure worth of encounters. I changed teleport into three spells: a tactical teleport for which you must have line of sight to your destination, a retreat teleport like word of recall (now available to wiz/sor), and a system of portals located in major cities to speed up high level movement somewhat. Would it be possible for you to post your house rule spells that you use? Thanks!
Steely Glint 06-02-05, 01:55 PM	Personally, I find stories involving scry to be much more interesting than stories involving teleport. Given the choice, I would prefer the removal of the latter, rather than the former.Fortunately, the entire teleport mechanic doesn't have to be removed, just modified so that this tactic does not work. The problem is solved. Would it be possible for you to post your house rule spells that you use? Thanks! I have removed teleport/greater teleport. Dimension door requires line of sight to the destination (tactical teleport). Word of recall is a 5th level sor/wiz spell (retreat teleport). My system of teleport gates is controlled by an organization known as the Gatewardens, whose agents must be paid a small fee for their use. They act somewhat similar to stargates, if you've ever seen the movie or tv show with the same name. Teleportation circle is used only in the creation of these gates. The specifics of the gate system should be modified to fit your campaign. They could be horizontal pads, they could be free to use (causes some problems with the economy, removing the need for long distance trade). I was also considering a spell that lets you make short teleports (close range, maybe) as a move action for 1 round/level or so, but I haven't gotten around to it.
Pyrrhonist 06-02-05, 04:41 PM	2nd level wiz/sorc spell...Rope Trick...scry all you want...you're in an empty space on a different plane...add +5 to save for being in a different plane...not to mention the fact that a normal party (at least in most campaigns I've played in) is four PCs...perhaps more with NPCs...so 8 allowed in a rope trick, plus one for the rope...BBEG HAPPENS to scry you, then he and some cronies try to teleport...oops...too many to be held in the Rope Trick...random roll to see which one doesn't make it ;) As a DM, I think some of the 'fun' is in trying to find clever ways to counter the players...and vice versa... In our campaign, we have a wiz with a rod of Extend Spell (3,000gp) so at 4th level we were able to rest our full 8 hours virtually undetected. The REAL nut buster for us, is "What happens when you open up your Bag of Holding or Heward's Handy Haversack while inside a Rope Trick???" **grin**
MrkGrismer 06-02-05, 04:52 PM	You're ignoring the scry aspect of Scry and Die, but I think you're starting to understand its effectiveness. It is a valid point, however, that removing scry, and related magical items, would effectively end this tactic. Personally, I find stories involving scry to be much more interesting than stories involving teleport. Given the choice, I would prefer the removal of the latter, rather than the former. No I am not: The difficulty of the save depends on how well you know the subject and what sort of physical connection (if any) you have to that creature. Furthermore, if the subject is on another plane, it gets a +5 bonus on its Will save. Knowledge: None1 = Will Save Modifier +10 Knowledge: Secondhand (you have heard of the subject) = Will Save Modifier +5
baylor 06-02-05, 05:21 PM	Just to clarify. Lesser Shivering Touch - level 1 Spell....Requires touch. 1d6 Dex - Less powerful than Ray of Enfeeblement. If you ban this then you should ban Ray of Enfeeblement. Remember though that the ability damage doesn't stack. Shivering Touch - Level 3 Spell...requires touch. 3d6 Dex - Pretty powerful but at this level you could have Cast Hold Person to disable someone or just fried them with a lightning Bolt. In any case i'm not too sure I want to be in melee with a rogue trying to land this.(or Fighter/barbarian for that matter) Overall I think it's fairly balanced even with Spectral hand. -b
smrtgmp 06-02-05, 06:48 PM	Again, the ramifications of teleport mean that there would inherently be no opposition. The first spellcaster to develop Scry and Die (tm) simply rules the world.This is quite the assumption. Perhaps you are forgetting a key component of scrying.You must have some sort of connection to a creature you have no knowledge of.So, unless said caster had knowledge of every other caster on the planet or a connection to them, such a tactic would have absolutely no chance of success. Since its easy to train in some hidden location where you dont draw any real attention to yourself, it would be virtually impossible track down every other spellcaster on the planet and wipe them out. Furthermore, Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked. As such, in a world where some tyranical overlord is using scry and die to wipe out all other casters, it wouldnt take long for those remaining to employ some simple mundane defenses and add some lead to the walls of their refuge. So long as they dont leave, they can study in peace without ever having to worry about someone scrying on them. Once they gain the ability to cast spells that offer some protection (nondetection at the very least, but it quickly gets better from there with spells like Anticipate Teleport), they would be able to go about their daily lives without much to worry about. While scry and die tactics are definately powerful, they are not the be all, end all of the game world. You guys are giving them entirely too much credit.
smrtgmp 06-02-05, 06:52 PM	Just to clarify. Lesser Shivering Touch - level 1 Spell....Requires touch. 1d6 Dex - Less powerful than Ray of Enfeeblement. If you ban this then you should ban Ray of Enfeeblement. Remember though that the ability damage doesn't stack. Just to clarify. First of all, ray of enfeeblement is a str penalty, not str damage. Second, ability damage most certainly does stack. Thats why its so deadly. Ray of enfeeblement does not stack with itself because penalties from the same source overlap.
The_Spleen-Splitter 06-02-05, 10:43 PM	I personaly think that Steely Glint had a great replacement for the teleport spells, both times he said it. Also, this is just an idea, but maybe someone could change polymorph so that you gain some of the abilities, instead of broken stat buffs. Taking broken abilities into consideration, of cource. :invasion:
Rotipher 06-02-05, 11:22 PM	Simple fixes for the "Scry & Die" quandry, if you guys really think this is such a terrible problem as to merit this much fuss: 1) IYC, merely scrying a subject DOES NOT provide sufficient knowledge of their location to Teleport to that location. Period. Perhaps the image the Scry-caster views is too foggy and distorted, like getting lousy reception of a TV broadcast; perhaps the divination-spell's mechanism of "getting a fix" on an observed subject's location is simply incompatible with the Teleport spell's means of finding that locale. Either way, unless the people you're Scrying happen to be located in a spot where there's no question whatsoever of their position (e.g. if they're sleeping in front of an unique momument you've seen a million times, in which case they're so foolish they deserve it), merely using a scrying-spell or item isn't enough to guide such an attack. 2) Precisely as in the movies, TV, comic books, or novels, IYC the arrival of a creature via Teleport invariably causes a clear, distinctive, and LOUD "Bang!" (or "Bamf!" or "Whooosh!" or whatever) sound. Even a Silence spell applied to the teleporting party won't muffle this, as the noise is generated at their destination in the half-second or so *prior* to their arrival. Hence, even a sleeping party gets to roll Listen checks to awaken before a Teleporting foe can strike. If you Teleport far enough away from your intended targets so they can't hear the noise, you also forfeit the advantage of an instantaneous appearance, and have to sneak up on the party the old-fashioned way, so aren't really any better off than if you'd merely warned your local minions to kill any adventurers who fit the party's description. Either way, _they'll hear you coming_, so no coup-de-grace allowed. Now, was that so hard...? ;-)
Derren S. 06-03-05, 12:20 AM	Just to clarify. Lesser Shivering Touch - level 1 Spell....Requires touch. 1d6 Dex - Less powerful than Ray of Enfeeblement. If you ban this then you should ban Ray of Enfeeblement. Remember though that the ability damage doesn't stack. Shivering Touch - Level 3 Spell...requires touch. 3d6 Dex - Pretty powerful but at this level you could have Cast Hold Person to disable someone or just fried them with a lightning Bolt. In any case i'm not too sure I want to be in melee with a rogue trying to land this.(or Fighter/barbarian for that matter) Overall I think it's fairly balanced even with Spectral hand. -b You have no idea how this spell works. The damage stacks, the touch is no hindrance because it is also a cleric spell which are able to go into close combat and even when they miss they can try again. And with a lesser rod of maximize this spell becomes an instant killer to all monsters with less than 19 Dex. Hold Person is nothing against that because it offers a save every round and is limited by creature type.
DragonsArt 06-03-05, 12:21 AM	Any other DMs here ban spells from certain books? Apart from saying no you can't have access to XYZ book I've banned the following spells from my game. Shivering Touch (players agreed with me on this one) Wood Rot (We're in a seafaring game and as written this spell can compltely shut down anything made out of wood with an AC of 5 or less with no size limit. A Galleon for example) Alter Self Polymorph Polymorph Any Object Shapechange All to powerul/broken for my games. Players had a small objection until I pointed out you could polymorph a Cleric into a Troll for +12 Strength, cast righeous might (+8 strength) and Divine Power for another +6 strength- or 40 strength for a Cleric with 14 natural strength. That doesn't include the other abuses you can put these spells to such as natural armor, awaken abuse, create a vorpal sword abuse, etc etc. The more cunning, clever way is to KEEP the spells... and make sure the NPCs use them regularly! Bawahahahahaha!
smrtgmp 06-03-05, 12:27 AM	And with a lesser rod of maximize this spell becomes an instant killer to all monsters with less than 19 Dex.Well, not quite. Those with the cold subtype are immune. Not that thats a very large list of enemies, though it is a signifigant limitation for a frostburn game.
Zardnaar 06-03-05, 12:29 AM	The more cunning, clever way is to KEEP the spells... and make sure the NPCs use them regularly! Bawahahahahaha! Then you have dead PCs all the time if you use intelligent tactics. What makes Shivering Touch even more sick is you can use sudden maximise on it so any old 5th level cleric with the right feats can use it to deal 18 dex damage. Even by itself you're looking at around 10-11 damage on average per hit.
Elgonn 06-03-05, 02:37 AM	Personally, I find stories involving scry to be much more interesting than stories involving teleport. Given the choice, I would prefer the removal of the latter, rather than the former. I'd have to say that the divination effects are more worth banning. Just annoying crap like repeated castings of Find the Path can be horribly annoying to deal with as a DM. Teleportation effects allow mobility without peer but have quite a few limitations and specific spells that counter them. I don't find players using them nearly as bad as divination. Part of a great story is how the information makes it to the protagonists. With some of the D&D divinations in play you either lose control of the info flow or artifically make up a reason why it doesn't work.
djinni 06-03-05, 03:04 AM	Then you have dead PCs all the time if you use intelligent tactics. What makes Shivering Touch even more sick is you can use sudden maximise on it so any old 5th level cleric with the right feats can use it to deal 18 dex damage. Even by itself you're looking at around 10-11 damage on average per hit. just because the party loses does not mean they die, and if a party doens't retreat it's their own fault for dying.
Roxlimn 06-03-05, 09:04 AM	Divination effects should be banned depending on the style of the campaign and on DM skill and player preference. DMs should learn how to manage the flow of information in their campaigns. Using divination powers to reveal information is part of this management. If you do not possess this skill yet, consider banning many divination spells right from the get-go. Find the Path, for example, is an excellent spell to have in the hands of the PCs. It means that you can essentially put an information barrier right out in the open and it'll be believable. When they get in the area and find no normal creatures in the area, having had to use Find the Path means that versimilitude is not sacrificed. It also allows you to whittle down those pesky Cleric spell slots. Teleportation is no problem if you can manage information. This is simple and obvious, but apparently bears mentioning. The one thing that limits Teleportation is information - if the PCs don't know that they need to teleport somewhere, then they won't do it, or even try to find information that will allow them to do so. In many ways, being able to handle Teleport is a benchmark - it means you can control information flow predictably. Taking every information trickle into account can be a tiresome and tedious job, but the rewards of versimilitude are incredible.
FreeTheSlaves 06-03-05, 09:50 AM	I don't ban any spells from sources other than the core rules - instead I allow them on a case by case basis. Broken spells from the PHB, otoh, I ban.
Pyrrhonist 06-03-05, 01:13 PM	I'm impressed that Roxlimm used "verisimilitude" twice in one post! **grin** Although I'm not positive it was used correctly as a synonym for truth ;) Just kidding... To go back to the original poster...remember that person?...there are always alternatives to banning a spell... Just blanket banning something because it's annoying or over powered should be a last resort after having tried other alternatives...
Elgonn 06-03-05, 04:33 PM	Using divination powers to reveal information is part of this management. If you do not possess this skill yet, consider banning many divination spells right from the get-go. I don't think there exists enough DM skill to attempt to challenge the mechanical workings of the divination effects that exist. Have you seen the new psionic 9th level power? Dear lord. Note: You also spelled verisimilitude wrong.
Zardnaar 06-03-05, 05:16 PM	I might ban some spells until I can errata or rewrite them into somethng playable. Heres a quick and dirty idea for some spells that are annoying/broken. Teleport. If banned Word of Recall becomes a 5th level arcane spell. Needs to be errated into a retreat spell or tactical spell (withen sight for example). Fabricate. Limited to one item created per spel casting. 100xp cost. Allows PCs to quickly/cheaply make an item but stops them becoming a factory. Find the Path. Remove from the game? Timestop. Only spells with a range of 0 may be cast or only spells that effect you. Shapechange/Polymorph etc. Remove from game. Replace with spells that allow you to assume specific forms.
Steely Glint 06-03-05, 05:29 PM	Divination effects should be banned depending on the style of the campaign and on DM skill and player preference. DMs should learn how to manage the flow of information in their campaigns. Using divination powers to reveal information is part of this management.I find investigation and the slow revelation of information to be one of the most fun parts of a campaign. If you want to play a campaign like this, you have two options: reduce the power of a few specific divination spells and tell your players about the changes or use DM fiat to stealth nerf divination under circumstances where it would hurt the story (Mythals, large antimagic areas, etc.) Neither of these are wrong, and a campaign with heavy investigation elements is not inherently better than any other kind. I prefer to let players know that some of their abilities will prove ineffective when they most need them, rather than just springing it on them. If you do not possess this skill yet, consider banning many divination spells right from the get-go. ... Teleportation is no problem if you can manage information. This is simple and obvious, but apparently bears mentioning. ... Taking every information trickle into account can be a tiresome and tedious job, but the rewards of versimilitude are incredible.I appreciate the veiled insult. The problem is that with the array of divinations available in core, it is very difficult to stop PCs from immediately accessing any information you may want to save for later. Mind blank can protect high level wizards. Mord's private sanctum and rope trick will decrease the chance of TPK somewhat, but not enough to really matter. If you use house rules to prevent this, (or Mythals, or anti-magic, or similar stuff that may be built into adventure modules) you're essentially admitting its broken. This issue is neither simple nor obvious, especially not the position you put forth. I'm a pretty smart guy, and when I took some time to think about it I came to a different conclusion than you did. I agree that verisimilitude is a worthy goal. It is not achieved when the mechanics contradict the flavor, or when super genius characters do not act almost optimally within the world.
Steely Glint 06-03-05, 05:33 PM	Fabricate. Limited to one item created per spel casting. 100xp cost. Allows PCs to quickly/cheaply make an item but stops them becoming a factory.I changed fabricate so that the goods it produces are functional but always of poor quality. It can be used to speed up mundane crafting though. This way, wizards can't just crank out tons of masterwork quality weapons, though they could make a ton of junky swords if they wanted. I don't think anyone would ever take it if it has an XP component.
Zardnaar 06-03-05, 06:07 PM	I changed fabricate so that the goods it produces are functional but always of poor quality. It can be used to speed up mundane crafting though. This way, wizards can't just crank out tons of masterwork quality weapons, though they could make a ton of junky swords if they wanted. I don't think anyone would ever take it if it has an XP component. Its a small xp component and I would pay it to make mithril/adamantine items or other special materials.
Elgonn 06-03-05, 06:09 PM	Why a flat XP cost for a fabricate fix. Why not do the standard 1/25 of GP as XP?
Zardnaar 06-03-05, 06:17 PM	Why a flat XP cost for a fabricate fix. Why not do the standard 1/25 of GP as XP? Because then they're geting ultar cheap expensive items. This way they still get them but with a real drawback. 100xp is nothing and should stop most abuse of the spell (cranking out masterwork stuff). Otherwise they spend the gold , sell it at a profit, wash rinse repeat.
Elgonn 06-03-05, 06:20 PM	Masterwork items aren't the abuse of the spell. The lack of a what 2 silver a day crafting progress is what makes it broken. You can destroy an economy even with simple items.
Zardnaar 06-03-05, 06:22 PM	Masterwork items aren't the abuse of the spell. The lack of a what 2 silver a day crafting progress is what makes it broken. You can destroy an economy even with simple items. Putting a small xp cost on it and limiting it to 1 item per casting removes the abuse though.
Elgonn 06-03-05, 06:27 PM	Just one item probably doesn't need an XP cost. It also limits the nice uses of the spell like making arrows.
Zardnaar 06-03-05, 06:33 PM	Just one item probably doesn't need an XP cost. It also limits the nice uses of the spell like making arrows. Ok make it 1 item but add "50 arrows or bolts count as one item" or something to that effect.
Roxlimn 06-04-05, 10:46 AM	Elgonn: I don't think there exists enough DM skill to attempt to challenge the mechanical workings of the divination effects that exist. Have you seen the new psionic 9th level power? Dear lord. Which one would that be? Steely Glint: I find investigation and the slow revelation of information to be one of the most fun parts of a campaign. If you want to play a campaign like this, you have two options: reduce the power of a few specific divination spells and tell your players about the changes or use DM fiat to stealth nerf divination under circumstances where it would hurt the story (Mythals, large antimagic areas, etc.) Neither of these are wrong, and a campaign with heavy investigation elements is not inherently better than any other kind. I prefer to let players know that some of their abilities will prove ineffective when they most need them, rather than just springing it on them. CSI's have stuff like DNA printing, GPS location, massive national databases, cameras, and all that jazz, and it doesn't detract from the power and mystery of a baffling case. The trick is to manage the divination powers, not to ban them. Let's look into Find the Path. Honestly, I can't find a single thing wrong with the spell. It finds the shortest, most direct physical route to a destination, but the PCs have to know they want to reach a destination first, before they can attempt to get to it, and it's limited to physical locations, not objects or creatures. Furthermore, it leads you through the most direct path, not necessarily the easiest one, so most players in my campaigns are a little leery of following the directions this spell gives them, as the most direct paths are usually also the most dangerous ones. You can use Find the Path as a "key" into a locale you want the PCs to access on a limited basis. After all, it tells them how to get into the place, not how to get out of it (once the duration expires), and the getting out might be the trickier. The problem is that with the array of divinations available in core, it is very difficult to stop PCs from immediately accessing any information you may want to save for later. Pshaw. Child's play. Let's say I don't want the PCs to know that their erstwhile companion, the Duke of Wellington, is actually an accomplished Changeling infiltrator in disguise. As spies would say, the best defense is complete plausibility. If the PCs have no reason to examine the Duke, then they won't bring their guns to bear on him, and no divinations of specific powerful natures can be used. Simply knowing that a high-level wizard is responsible for their troubles is a powerful tool for high level PCs to use, so you should make them pay for this information. Of course, most divination spells are subject to some form of failure, one way or another, and the wise player never takes any information he receives at face value. Mind blank can protect high level wizards. Mord's private sanctum and rope trick will decrease the chance of TPK somewhat, but not enough to really matter. PC defense is more problematic, since they're lower level than their enemy. You must deal with this on a case to case basis. Some groups will simply accept that no villain values divination as highly as they do, or regard the rare Diviner villain with abject dread - enough to be paranoid enough to conceivably survive. More than shielding yourself magically, not engaing the enemy in a front-up challenge is the wise course. Attacking the holdings of what's obviously a powerful wizard and leaving identifying marks all over the place isn't exactly the smartest thing to be doing. This issue is neither simple nor obvious, especially not the position you put forth. I'm a pretty smart guy, and when I took some time to think about it I came to a different conclusion than you did. I can't comment on your smarts, but apparently you misunderstand what I said. I said that the main problem with Teleportation is information handling, and this conclusion is simple and obvious, not that information handling itself is simple and obvious. I agree that verisimilitude is a worthy goal. It is not achieved when the mechanics contradict the flavor, or when super genius characters do not act almost optimally within the world. :rolleyes: You'll be surprised at the kinds of mistakes supposedly super-genius characters can make. Besides, intelligence is not a simple matter. A tactical genius might be strategically inept, or vice versa. A musical genius may not be able to help you out with your taxes at all. I'm rated to have an IQ of 148, but I can tell that you must think I'm stupid. Everyone can make stupid mistakes. One of the smartest people I know of once made a shrapnel explosive from firecrackers and household items and exploded it at close proximity. Do not underestimate humanity's capacity for stupidity. Zaardnar: I changed Fabricate so that it doesn't say "this spell ruins economies." Oh wait, it doesn't say that. Silly me.
MrkGrismer 06-04-05, 12:07 PM	My main ruling on fabricate is that it can only make a single item per casting. It still could be used for economic gain, but that cuts things considerably.
Steely Glint 06-04-05, 02:40 PM	CSI's have stuff like DNA printing, GPS location, massive national databases, cameras, and all that jazz, and it doesn't detract from the power and mystery of a baffling case. The trick is to manage the divination powers, not to ban them. I think the show would be a lot different if in the first 5 minutes, one of the CSI’s casts a divination spell and asks “who is the murderer?” Then the cops go pick him up. Or if any evidence is left behind, they just scry on the person using their eyelash or whatever. Or speak with dead and the corpse tells you who the murderer is. I guess you could make a show about the divinations and the tactics criminals use to evade them, but then it would be a completely different show. It would be impossible to have a show about forensic medicine like CSI in a world with divinations. If you want to run a campaign with similar information gathering elements, you have to do something about divinations. Let's look into Find the Path. Honestly, I can't find a single thing wrong with the spell. It finds the shortest, most direct physical route to a destination, but the PCs have to know they want to reach a destination first, before they can attempt to get to it, and it's limited to physical locations, not objects or creatures. I don’t consider find the path to be hugely problematic, so I don’t really have a problem with letting it be. The most direct path can still lead through traps and monster-filled rooms. Pshaw. Child's play. Let's say I don't want the PCs to know that their erstwhile companion, the Duke of Wellington, is actually an accomplished Changeling infiltrator in disguise. As spies would say, the best defense is complete plausibility. If the PCs have no reason to examine the Duke, then they won't bring their guns to bear on him, and no divinations of specific powerful natures can be used. Simply knowing that a high-level wizard is responsible for their troubles is a powerful tool for high level PCs to use, so you should make them pay for this information. Of course, most divination spells are subject to some form of failure, one way or another, and the wise player never takes any information he receives at face value. Those are good points. However, I like my players to slowly learn about the various machinations that are occurring beneath the surface, not be completely unaware (what’s the point of having stuff happening if only you know about it?) Once they get a little information foothold, divination spells allow them to crack the entire nut open unless their foe is a high level wizard or protected by DM fiat. PC defense is more problematic …snip… … …snip… not engaing the enemy in a front-up challenge is the wise course. I’m glad you agree to some degree about PC defense against high level characters. Oftentimes PCs interfere accidentally in the BBEG’s plans, because the bandits/kobold miners/thieves guild/etc. works for him. I also don’t want to have to screw players for being heroic. I can't comment on your smarts, but apparently you misunderstand what I said. I said that the main problem with Teleportation is information handling, and this conclusion is simple and obvious, not that information handling itself is simple and obvious. Yes, the problem with teleportation is information handling. I disagree that information can be tightly controlled if characters have access to divination spells. Since I want both divination and teleport mechanics to remain in my campaign in some form, they will have to be modified so they don’t create a broken synergy. You'll be surprised at the kinds of mistakes supposedly super-genius characters can make. Besides, intelligence is not a simple matter. A tactical genius might be strategically inept, or vice versa. A musical genius may not be able to help you out with your taxes at all. Yes, smart people make mistakes. I would say a character with super high Intelligence and a low Wisdom could be the savant type, but a character with 32 Intelligence (estimated IQ: 320), 20 Wisdom, and 600 years of lichdom/dragondom has made those mistakes and survived. He possesses a level of planning and cunning that us mere humans (Int 14 or 15) cannot begin to comprehend; a character that smart does things and anticipates things which seem impossible. I doubt that all smart, high-level characters are constantly making the same mistakes that prevent them from using an obviously powerful strategy.
Elgonn 06-04-05, 08:15 PM	Elgonn: Which one would that be? Metafaculty [Seer 9] Automatically returned Results: Name Race Alignment Character Class HD estimate Location (including place of residence, town, country, world, and plane of existence) Significant items in their posession Full knowledge of any significant activities taken place within 8 hours (Down to tiny inane details like items picked up, spells cast, etc.) Current Mental view of the creature for 1/min level Defeats Mind Blank, Wish, Miracle, Screen, etc in any sort of defense against divination (epic spells can defend). So Roxlimn how does a skilled DM work that?
Roxlimn 06-05-05, 02:12 AM	Elgonn: That's really a very weak power, in terms of problems raised during information management. First of all, it only works on one creature per manifestation. That's cheap. If you don't know what the heck it is you're looking for, then you can't use the power. Secondly, you must have seen the creature in question for the power to work. Even if you know his name, if you've never seen him before, metafaculty does not work. Depending on interpretation, even something as common as a disguise can foil the spell, since you technically haven't seen the creature in question, only a disguise. Steely Glint: I think the show would be a lot different if in the first 5 minutes, one of the CSI’s casts a divination spell and asks “who is the murderer?” Then the cops go pick him up. Or if any evidence is left behind, they just scry on the person using their eyelash or whatever. Or speak with dead and the corpse tells you who the murderer is. Augury spell equivalent: fingerprinting. Places people at the scenes, but doesn't tell you for sure they did it. Contact Other Plane is slightly better, but I don't know if it's applicable for a mundane murder. Scry equivalent: satellite tracking, bugs, GPS tracking. Being able to scry on someone is no proof of guilt. Indeed, you may have to get permisso to use Scry yourself in most civilized areas. Additionally, scry is no better than your own senses, can be used against you, and tracks in real time. Speak with Dead equivalent: security cams. In fact, security cams might be better, since they usually get you a POV better than the deceased person's, especially in the case of a sneak attack. Every single one divination can be foiled, and in a world where magic exists, you would expect criminals to be conversant with possible applications and avoid leaving incriminating marks where they would be easily seen. Indeed, some divinations are just too easy to fool with false information, and many spells can foil divinations, too. I guess you could make a show about the divinations and the tactics criminals use to evade them, but then it would be a completely different show. It would be impossible to have a show about forensic medicine like CSI in a world with divinations. If you want to run a campaign with similar information gathering elements, you have to do something about divinations. Yes, it would be an entirely different show, with entirely different difficulties. With advanced technology, searching for things like little eyelashes at a scene is easier, though no less tedious. Without such technology, even finding such a piece would be a phenomenal stroke of luck. Indeed, it would be impossible to have a show about forensic divination like Arcane Magic in a world with CSI technique. The focus on such a campaign should not be to have similar information gathering techniques, but to look at what information gathering techniques are available in D&D and reason out accordingly. People can frame other people with stuff like planted evidence, false leads, and blanking trails. Why is this not possible with divination? Indeed, it is quite possible and entirely doable with divination. Those are good points. However, I like my players to slowly learn about the various machinations that are occurring beneath the surface, not be completely unaware (what’s the point of having stuff happening if only you know about it?) As for myself, I like to let the players derive their own conclusions from the information they collect. It's just so much more fun that way. They often concoct amazing imagined plots and twists even I didn't think of! Note that almost until the very end in each CSI episode, the CSIs are likewise almost completely unaware of what's going on. It's the key evidence that breaks the case wide open that's the clincher in every episode. Likewise, in D&D, the key evidence could be the secret name of a master wizard, or a book rumored to have been his long long ago. Once they get a little information foothold, divination spells allow them to crack the entire nut open unless their foe is a high level wizard or protected by DM fiat. That's not true. Let's take the case of a murdered man, lying face down in his own blood, obviously killed by a knife wound to the back. He's lying in his bedroom villa, no signs of a struggle obvious to wizards or rogues, or clerics. No one reports intrusion. He was found dead in the morning. No further clues. Now, try to "break" this case "wide open" with every single divination power you've got up to about 6th level spells (I have the most experience with spells 6th level and below). I disagree that information can be tightly controlled if characters have access to divination spells. You can disagree if you like. I find that I can manage information just fine, with every single Divination spell (below level 8) thrown at me, and then some. Augury isn't broken. Neither are Speak with Dead, Detect X, True Seeing or a host of other divination effects. Yes, smart people make mistakes. I would say a character with super high Intelligence and a low Wisdom could be the savant type, but a character with 32 Intelligence (estimated IQ: 320), 20 Wisdom, and 600 years of lichdom/dragondom has made those mistakes and survived. He possesses a level of planning and cunning that us mere humans (Int 14 or 15) cannot begin to comprehend; a character that smart does things and anticipates things which seem impossible. Such a character should still be fallible. He's very smart, not perfect.
Elgonn 06-05-05, 02:23 AM	That's really a very weak power, in terms of problems raised during information management. If I see a disguised polymorphed creature through a scrying portal I've "seen" that creature. Irregardless of what it looked like in comparison to its real form. There isn't any interpretation there. You would have an argument if I saw an illusion of him. I'm glad to see that the DMs control here is never ever having an opponent EVER in sight of players. How do you consider this information control? Your fine with someone who has shown themselves once being at the total whim of an enemy?
Roxlimn 06-05-05, 02:35 AM	Elgonn: If I see a disguised polymorphed creature through a scrying portal I've "seen" that creature. Irregardless of what it looked like in comparison to its real form. There isn't any interpretation there. You would have an argument if I saw an illusion of him. What's the difference between a mundane disguise + polymorph and the Disguise Self spell, insofar as "seeing the creature" is concerned? Not a whole lot, in my view. I'm glad to see that the DMs control here is never ever having an opponent EVER in sight of players. How do you consider this information control? Your fine with someone who has shown themselves once being at the total whim of an enemy? Total whim? Of a 20th level enemy? Yeah, pretty much. When you're fighting the likes of Sauron, you don't go around muttering the Dark Speech, shouting his name, or otherwise calling attention to yourself. At least, not without adequate defenses and reasons. Even if I'm an enemy and you've seen me, if you have no reason to suspect that I'm an enemy, then you have no reason to investigate me. Indeed, it strikes me as frivolous and useless to use Metafaculty to sift through every last lackey and NPC wandering around the place, just to be be sure, especially when your opponent could really be that invisible guy you've never seen at all. Elder Druids, Archmages, and other such like conceal their very names and appearances from their enemies if they can manage it, and apparently, there's a very good reason to be doing that.
Elgonn 06-05-05, 03:00 AM	That's not true. Let's take the case of a murdered man, lying face down in his own blood, obviously killed by a knife wound to the back. He's lying in his bedroom villa, no signs of a struggle obvious to wizards or rogues, or clerics. No one reports intrusion. He was found dead in the morning. No further clues. Now, try to "break" this case "wide open" with every single divination power you've got up to about 6th level spells (I have the most experience with spells 6th level and below). Well Sensitivity to Pschic Impressions could let you watch the murder. Which would let you know if the wound was really from a dagger. Was the dagger wielded? Where did it go? Where did the murderer come from? What relatively did the murderer look like? Speak with the Dead would let the victim list people he thinks might want to harm him. You could use Locate Object on 'possible' items if viewed well from the earlier vision. In the same vein Locate Creature if the assassin is of a rare type. As usual you can use Scrying/Greater Scrying from the divined earlier scene to look at the creature. Legend Lore & Contact Other Plane are just bizarre and usually bad for this purpose. Most annoying for a murderer is Discern Location. Never ever leave anything even slightly mundane behind. For the divinely inclined just ask your deity some questions Commune. As per the books going over what a god can percieve is massive. "Remote Sensing" is Divine Rank in miles from any worshiper, holy site, etc.. Divination will answer annoying questions like "How do I find the murderer?"
Elgonn 06-05-05, 03:06 AM	What's the difference between a mundane disguise + polymorph and the Disguise Self spell, insofar as "seeing the creature" is concerned? The point is that it doesn't matter what something looks like as long as your perceived it. If you did you 'saw' it. That is all that is required. If I see an old man walking down the street I can metafaculty him even if he is a Silver Dragon. Yeah, pretty much. When you're fighting the likes of Sauron, you don't go around muttering the Dark Speech, shouting his name, or otherwise calling attention to yourself. Yes Sauron is a great example. Quite a few of the characters there had seen him before. Just a use of Metafaculty and they could know everything he did for the last 8 hours. (I'm curious as to 'where' it would have said he was.)
Roxlimn 06-05-05, 03:36 AM	Well Sensitivity to Pschic Impressions could let you watch the murder. Which would let you know if the wound was really from a dagger. Was the dagger wielded? Where did it go? Where did the murderer come from? What relatively did the murderer look like? There was a murder, and it seems to have been made by a person wielding a dagger. It is unclear what happened to the dagger, or where the murderer came from. You can't tell what he looks like. Speak with the Dead would let the victim list people he thinks might want to harm him. No one. Apparently, he was a well-liked guy. You could use Locate Object on 'possible' items if viewed well from the earlier vision. In the same vein Locate Creature if the assassin is of a rare type. Cannot discern creature type or items clearly enough. "No special knowledge", remember? As usual you can use Scrying/Greater Scrying from the divined earlier scene to look at the creature. Nothing to go on. You don't know what he looks like, or who he is. Most annoying for a murderer is Discern Location. Never ever leave anything even slightly mundane behind. Nothing mundane apparent from Search. For the divinely inclined just ask your deity some questions Commune. As per the books going over what a god can percieve is massive. "Remote Sensing" is Divine Rank in miles from any worshiper, holy site, etc.. Bear in mind that your deity must be making you investigate this crime because he doesn't know himself, or he has some other reasons for making you do this the way he wants. The answers may not be forthcoming, one way or another. You have 10 questions, answerable by yes or no. "The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions." Frankly, I don't see how you can solve any complex mystery by calling on the Boss. Divination will answer annoying questions like "How do I find the murderer?" Hah! You wish. ", a divination spell can provide you with a useful piece of advice in reply to a question concerning a specific goal, event, or activity that is to occur within one week." Emphasize "a useful bit of advice" and "a specific event, goal, or activity." Also, 90% correct at best, even then. Let's say the divination succeeded and that you are directed to attend the Lord's Ball to occur a week from today. Bring "your eyes." As you can see, you are no nearer to solving the crime as when you started, and on top of that, you need to attend this Ball thing to gather more information. I daresay that a Rogue with Gather Information at +17 can provide information that will give you a run for your money. Let's say he gets a nice 18 on his roll. He finds out that although the man believes that everyone likes him, and that this is more or less true, the man's success as a businessman has made some few colleagues of his envious of late. Not that you'd expect any of them to kill for mild envy. See? No definitive one-spell answers here. Just more clues yielded by the spells that lead to even more clues. The key evidence that breaks the case willl be revealed, but all in good time... Yes Sauron is a great example. Quite a few of the characters there had seen him before. Just a use of Metafaculty and they could know everything he did for the last 8 hours. (I'm curious as to 'where' it would have said he was.) You would have to be insane to attempt such a reckless stunt. In all probability, he's got something a lot more potent than simply Metafaculty. Try "Sensor Domination" or some such similar thing. The moment your remote viewing sensor comes into view, it's saving throw time. Mind you, this a save Saruman failed. You don't just look into the Palantir just to see what Sauron's been up to lately.
Derren S. 06-05-05, 04:02 AM	Well Sensitivity to Pschic Impressions could let you watch the murder. Which would let you know if the wound was really from a dagger. Was the dagger wielded? Where did it go? Where did the murderer come from? What relatively did the murderer look like? Not to forget that you, when you view more than one event, know what else has been done with the dagger and quite possibly where the owner lives Speak with the Dead would let the victim list people he thinks might want to harm him. You can also simply ask the victim if he has seen his murderer and who was it. You could use Locate Object on 'possible' items if viewed well from the earlier vision. In the same vein Locate Creature if the assassin is of a rare type. Thats best for robbery. Just get someone who has seen the stolen object before and with him cast locate object and let the caster walk/fly through the city and he will find the object and with it more clues or the criminal himself. As usual you can use Scrying/Greater Scrying from the divined earlier scene to look at the creature. Just find some hair the murderer has droppen and you negate the willsave for not knowing the person you scry for. Bingo, you now know who and where he is.[quote]
Elgonn 06-05-05, 07:06 AM	There was a murder, and it seems to have been made by a person wielding a dagger. It is unclear what happened to the dagger, or where the murderer came from. You can't tell what he looks like. Actually you can. Was he human? Kelvezu? Male? Female? I didn't say "Was it Gary Gygax?" They do get to watch the scene. Cannot discern creature type or items clearly enough. "No special knowledge", remember? Your missing the point. Yeah not clearly to identify the EXACT assassin. But guess what. Locate Creature works on NEAREST drow/doppleganger/demon (or some other unlikely candidate). Just like I can "find" odd items. Baatorian Green Steel Dagger? Please like there is lots of that around. Nothing to go on. You don't know what he looks like, or who he is. Complete lie. I saw him in the earlier vision. He just gets a bonus on the save. Nothing mundane apparent from Search. Then break out your CSI microscope buddy. (I was pointing out an example not asking whether or not he left crap.) Bear in mind that your deity must be making you investigate this crime because he doesn't know himself, or he has some other reasons for making you do this the way he wants. The answers may not be forthcoming, one way or another. You have 10 questions, answerable by yes or no. "The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions." Frankly, I don't see how you can solve any complex mystery by calling on the Boss. God doesn't kill blasphemers. God's minions do. Yeah this might be a stretch if I'm a cleric of the god of assassins but I think the god of justice might just give a damn. These questions aren't hard. Emphasize "a useful bit of advice" and "a specific event, goal, or activity." Also, 90% correct at best, even then. There is a 10%+ chance that the spell fails (for me). But having a 2nd investigator statistically removes even that small chance. Also it does have to answer my question. "How exactly do I find the killer" is valid. Let's say the divination succeeded and that you are directed to attend the Lord's Ball to occur a week from today. Bring "your eyes." Here I was thinking you were going to explain this without using DM fiat. Come on man. Give me something mechanical to beat these spells with. Not the crap you'll metagame in and screw players with for no reason. See? No definitive one-spell answers here. Just more clues yielded by the spells that lead to even more clues. You thought I was complaining about a single spell? I'll just cast <insert div> and know the answer? Divination spells reduce the amount of things you can do as a DM. They provide information that is virtually metagaming by stealing the DM's notes. Can you ever use a maze or get people lost when Find the Path exists? Ever have a sloppy crime scene? I really don't need to know that after a certain point that every single possible murder that will ever happen in the proximity of PCs will be by a hired assassin who will be disintegrated later when the job was completed. Maybe its just me but I'd like to know that someone I've seen can still hide or hell at least run. But given divination and teleportation it just isn't going to happen.
Archtyrant Terevoth 06-05-05, 11:06 AM	There is a 10%+ chance that the spell fails (for me). But having a 2nd investigator statistically removes even that small chance. Also it does have to answer my question. "How exactly do I find the killer" is valid. I agree with the rest of your argument except for tihs. Divination can take a cryptic form. It does not in any way have to give you an exact indisputable answer. Even if you succeed, you are not going to get a map telling you exactly how to carry out your investigation. It could be something as simple as "look in the place where the wealthy gather." Or if the DM wants to, he could just say that question produces no answer, because divination doesn't answer things "exactly" it gives short and cryptic responses, not a 50 line instruction manual. Having divination give short answers that don't reveal everything is a part of the spell description. That being said, everything you stated about psionic divinations was accurate. It's one reason I believe that psionic divinations in general are broken, and generally not fun. Clerical and arcane divinations are designed not to give anyone the full story. Psionic divinations on the other hand are apparently there solely to break the game. And if you want to talk about banning psionic divinations... hypercognition is the one that absolutely shouldn't exist at all. The entire point of the power as far as I can tell is to completely replace the thinking process.
Elgonn 06-05-05, 04:05 PM	I agree with the rest of your argument except for tihs. Divination can take a cryptic form. It does not in any way have to give you an exact indisputable answer. Even if you succeed, you are not going to get a map telling you exactly how to carry out your investigation. I'm sorry if I implied that. I wasn't trying to say it was easy. Just you can't mechanically cop out and say "You don't get an answer" or "Only answers some of the question". Hell once I returned my players an entire cryptic poem with transposed lettering and converted into binary. Just because I was particularily cruel that day. But as the DM I did have to answer the question. I have Rule 0 but to me that is only to preserve the game in progress against some sort of unexpected chaos. I'm not going to metagame, cheat, or create house rules after the campaign has started. Even in a cryptic form though ridiculously intelligent characters should have a shot at deciphering it. That really is the party roll of the wizard anyways, the skeleton key. There are even more forms of information gathering that I haven't even listed here but work really well. It is quite hard to protect an organization from Dominate, Dopplegangers, etc. Pretty easy to work your way up the food chain even without divination effects. But the good thing is that at least this takes actual footwork. Your wizards and cleric's efficient first step should never be to gather items and information the night before and then spend the next day in a temple with every single spell memmed as divination (with a couple teleports).
Roxlimn 06-05-05, 05:08 PM	Elgonn: Actually you can. Was he human? Kelvezu? Male? Female? I didn't say "Was it Gary Gygax?" They do get to watch the scene. I beg to differ. "You gain historical vision in a given location. Rooms, streets, tunnels, and other discrete locations accumulate psychic impressions left by powerful emotions experienced in a given area. These impressions offer you a picture of the location’s past." A "vision" is not the same as a "movie" or even "a highly accurate photograph." The "impressions" left by powerful emotions "offer you a picture", but the details in this "picture" are by no means exacting or detailed. In fact, the level of detail in most psychic visions tends to be maddeningly vague. "The vision of the event is dreamlike and shadowy. You do not gain special knowledge of those involved in the vision, though you might be able to read large banners or other writing if they are in your language." The vision is shadowy. It's hard to make out details. Even if you were at the scene yourself, it would be difficult to say whether the assailant were human or not. That would take a Knowledge check, perhaps with penalties for illumination and other such vagaries. From Sensitivity? Forget it. You are presuming way too much power from a 2nd level power. Your missing the point. Yeah not clearly to identify the EXACT assassin. But guess what. Locate Creature works on NEAREST drow/doppleganger/demon (or some other unlikely candidate). Just like I can "find" odd items. Baatorian Green Steel Dagger? Please like there is lots of that around. Your vision does not necessarily grant you this information. That's as plain as day. Complete lie. I saw him in the earlier vision. He just gets a bonus on the save. Possibly. If I were being generous, I would rule that the vision was accurate enough to grant you "None" on the table granting the creature a +8 on the save. Having said that, Sensitivity is a double edged sword. There's no telling you're viewing a visually accurate event. It's the emotional content that leaves impressions, not visual detail. God doesn't kill blasphemers. God's minions do. Yeah this might be a stretch if I'm a cleric of the god of assassins but I think the god of justice might just give a damn. These questions aren't hard. They're hard enough for a 10th level character to have to look to the skies and ask for divine help. Outsider divine beings are not necessarily omniscient, and the god may or may not know about the event for any of several possible reasons. Even if he does know, that's no guarantee he'll tell. He'll tell what you need to hear to do what he needs you to do, and no more. There is a 10%+ chance that the spell fails (for me). But having a 2nd investigator statistically removes even that small chance. Also it does have to answer my question. "How exactly do I find the killer" is valid. No, it does not. All it has to do is "offer useful advice." "Go to the place where the wealthy gather" is not only valid, it's quite generous for such a low level spell. You presume too much power for this spell. I'm thinking that this tendency to overpower divinations is what's giving you problems. Here I was thinking you were going to explain this without using DM fiat. Come on man. Give me something mechanical to beat these spells with. Not the crap you'll metagame in and screw players with for no reason. This is not DM fiat. This is exactly what Divination is supposed to do. It "offers useful advice," nothing more. Presumably, this advice is relevant to the question. "Eat your vegetables" is useful advice, but I would not venture to say that that's a generally valid answer. Even so, if you get "eat your vegetables" as your answer, you'd probably eat the damn things for a while. It'll probably lead you onto some important clue or event. You thought I was complaining about a single spell? I'll just cast <insert div> and know the answer? Divination spells reduce the amount of things you can do as a DM. They provide information that is virtually metagaming by stealing the DM's notes. That kind of thinking is what's getting you in trouble. Divinations are not metagaming tools. They do not "steal the DMs notes" anymore than the relevant Gather Information or Bardic Knowledge or Knowledge checks do. When you plan an adventure, you do plan for what information to leave around for Gather Information, Search, Intimidate, and so on and so forth, right? Why consciously leave out Divinations? That doesn't make sense. Just as you plan for what information gets to the players through skill checks, you also plan for what information gets to them through spells and powers. Can you ever use a maze or get people lost when Find the Path exists? Yup. Just because the way out exists doesn't mean that it's safe to take it. A guardian beast or 7 through the shortest way out neatly short-circuits Find the Path long enough for the maze to actually be a challenge, depending on how you interpret the spell. Ever have a sloppy crime scene? Sloppy crime scenes are the work of sloppy, low level criminals. High level characters have no business chasing after small fry. I really don't need to know that after a certain point that every single possible murder that will ever happen in the proximity of PCs will be by a hired assassin who will be disintegrated later when the job was completed. Maybe its just me but I'd like to know that someone I've seen can still hide or hell at least run. But given divination and teleportation it just isn't going to happen. You must be playing some game other than D&D. There are lots of effects that defeat Scrying. There are effects that defeat Teleportation, too. Granted, these effects are not cheap, but I don't believe that a person who can't access these effects is worthy of being able to evade 9th level PCs for very long, anyway. There are even more forms of information gathering that I haven't even listed here but work really well. It is quite hard to protect an organization from Dominate, Dopplegangers, etc. Pretty easy to work your way up the food chain even without divination effects. But the good thing is that at least this takes actual footwork. Your wizards and cleric's efficient first step should never be to gather items and information the night before and then spend the next day in a temple with every single spell memmed as divination (with a couple teleports). Funny, dat. Yes, divinations are powerful tools for uncovering clues, but I don't know that you should be taking on what could be powerful enemies with most of your spell slots prepared as divinations. So I wouldn't recommend Teleporting on that same day just yet, even if for some reason, you actually find somewhere to Teleport to. I read the divinations, and I follow the rules, but you haven't got a clue as to where this killer is yet. Come on, man, make a better effort. You can catch this guy.
Elgonn 06-05-05, 07:13 PM	I read the divinations, and I follow the rules, but you haven't got a clue as to where this killer is yet. Come on, man, make a better effort. You can catch this guy. Thanks for not even trying to do anything more than lie and make up house rules as you go. Seriously did you even read Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions. Did you read the example? The rest are just as blatant. Also the point about not being able to hide wasn't about 9th level characters. It is about much higher. When you can pierce Mind Blank and Wish and don't care about ANY non-epic spell protections. A 20th level wizard should be able to show themselves once to someone. I'd also like to point out that the wonderfully handy Ring of Major Spell Storing makes even peasants and anyone else you choose able to cast whatever divination from their own perspective. It is one thing to not be directly known by me but and entirely other thing to not be directly known by anyone.
Roxlimn 06-07-05, 10:48 AM	Elgonn: Please quote your example and illustrate how it makes the way I ruled it incorrect. I apologize for not having the example, I'm working from the SRD. You say that I'm lying. Please say how. I argue interpretation, and I'm challenging you to present concrete refutations of my interpretation of Divination. For that matter, I challenge you to do the same for every power I interpreted here. Also the point about not being able to hide wasn't about 9th level characters. It is about much higher. When you can pierce Mind Blank and Wish and don't care about ANY non-epic spell protections. A 20th level wizard should be able to show themselves once to someone. Really? I'm sorry, but where does it say that in the rulebook? I'm not familiar with that rule. I'd also like to point out that the wonderfully handy Ring of Major Spell Storing makes even peasants and anyone else you choose able to cast whatever divination from their own perspective. It is one thing to not be directly known by me but and entirely other thing to not be directly known by anyone. I think that being almost wholly untraceable is doable by a 20th level wizard or cleric. Also, Ring of Major Spell Storing is a 200 000 gp item. Not exactly cheap. I reiterate my stand that information management is possible and doable in D&D. This is necessary for the rules to work, and I'm sure most of the designers will agree with this assessment. Feel free to demonstrate at length how thoroughly unworkable divinations are. Again, I formally request discussion of 7th level spells only at most, as these are the levels I am most familiar with, even though I have also freely taken up Metafaculty.