Bard's Fascination Question(s)??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard's Fascination Question(s)??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NerdCoreRocks
09-24-06, 05:39 PM Hi guys.

I don't fully understand the point of the Bard's Fascination effect. What is the point of it standing alone (not in conjunction with the Suggestion effect)?

I know the creature affected will sit and watch the bard as long as it doesn't feel threatened and there are no nearby dangers or commotion, and I know it takes a -4 penalty to skill checks made as reactions (Listen/Spot checks). This would help party members to circle around the fascinated creature and attack it right? That seems to be the main point of it to me. Otherwise, who cares if the creature notices/hears a party member who is just trying to sneak past it, because even if the creature hears the sneaker, he's not going to do anything because he's too busy listening to the bard. In this case the creature's not going to get an extra Will save either, because the players are trying to just sneak past the creature and they aren't threatening him in any way.

(If I'm wrong about the whole point of fascinating a creature, let me know. Maybe the point IS simply to sneak past the creature, with the bard circling around him last in a wide arc and backing out through a door while the party shuts it and try's to block it quickly afterwards).

But if the point of the penalty to the reflexive skill checks (listen/spot) of the affected creature is for PC's to surprise attack it easier (if it fails the check of a PC coming up behind it, then it doesn't feel threatened and get a new Will save against the Bards new Perform DC), then it still doesn't make sense to me. I mean, even if another group member gets within attacking range and draws a sword without the fascinated creature noticing, there are no real bonuses (i.e. no Dexterity penalty to creature) for the attacker sneaking up on the fascinated creature. It seems like a big waste of time for the Bard starting this ability, other than for the party to get in a certain position before combat actually "starts."

Should there be a Dexterity penalty that isn't mentioned because the creature is sitting, not moving, and hypnotically watching the Bard? A PC who successfully got behind the creature without it noticing and attacked it should be able to do so easier than if the creature saw it coming, right? If there is no Dexterity loss, then can you at least explain why there is not? Anyways, if there isn't, would the sneaking up to the creature and attacking simply start a surprise round, where it is the only one surprised before it snaps out of it and stops being flat footed a round later? Or is it simply a method to take advantage of initiative order (everyone sneaks around it but the Bard, the person with initiative directly after the creature attacks first, and then everyone gets to attack before the creature gets his turn.)

I know this is kind of jumbled, and I ask a lot, but if you could go through it and answer each of my questions line by line I would appreciate it big time. Thanks!
NerdCoreRocks
09-25-06, 08:30 AM i know this is a complex question, but someone's gotta know the answer?
TheGogmagog
09-25-06, 08:35 AM I haven't played a bard yet, though it's on my to do list when I am in the right party. But I think the point is to avoid the encounter not to get the jump on it. Whether it's sneaking past or retreating away.

That aside, a DM could rule that the opponent is flat footed. Then they would be denied dex and if you have a coordinated attack everyone would get a suprise round. Personally I'd allow this in certain situations specifically, if the opponent would have been supprised anyway. I wouldn't allow a bard to facinate in combat in order to return everyone to flat footed and get a second suprise round. But to facinate a guard before suspicion has set in would allow the group to surround it.
Minias
09-25-06, 08:50 AM My bard used this power most often when on watch.

If some hostile creature(s) were to stumble upon our sleeping camp, and he noticed it, then he could break into a Facination song tyring to hold them at bay until everybody was awake and standing.

When everyone is ready they can take turns drawing weapons, buffing spells, etc .., until the Facination effect is broken.

It was too bad that I played a self-absorbed, low-wisdom bard that had practically no Spot or Listen skills.
Wargrave
09-25-06, 09:06 AM I actually won a match in a tournament with it. I otto's irresistable danced my opponant putting him in a non combat mindset, and then fascinated him long enough to sit down and get a gooood suggestion to leave the ring because it was the "right thing to do."
NerdCoreRocks
09-25-06, 02:18 PM Minias: That sounds like a pretty creative (and intelligent) way to use it. I could see maybe how the point of the ability is to buy the party some time to prep for a battle before the creature both notices an offensive action (casting a spell/drawing a weapon) AND successfully makes a new high enough Will save. I still don't understand why the rules don't account for some penalty to the fascinated creature, if a PC is able to sneak within attacking range behind it and attack it without being noticed.

TheGogmagog: I still can't see the ability being used primarily for sneaking. The Bard will have to maintain visual contact with the creature while the rest of his group sneaks by. Then it would be just the Bard and the creature, and the second a Bard were to back away towards his friends and the line of sight was cut off, the creature would snap out of it and attack (because it's not like it didn't remember what just happened. it was just so entralled by the music that it didn't care about anything else for the time being).

Also, you commented on how you would only let a Bard use this ability (to cause a creature to be flat footed ala House Rules) before the creature entered combat mode. But what if there was only one creature, and all the PC's sheathed their weapons, backed up, knelt, and the Bard whipped out his flute and started playing? In my opinion, this would easily get rid of "the nearby distraction of combat or other dangers" in order to start the Fascination effect? Then the PC's could stand up, and take a wiiiide circle around the creature until they were out of it's sight. Then they could draw weapons/buff/whatever before attacking (of course which the creature would get -4 Listen checks to hear).
NerdCoreRocks
09-26-06, 01:20 PM Any other thoughts on my questions? Or is this dead?
Mkire
09-26-06, 06:33 PM Fascinate+big crowd+rogue=money!

one of my favorite uses of a bard's music is to get her to start singing, and then the party's rogue walks through the fascinated crowd picking pockets
demonsinmyhead
09-26-06, 06:43 PM Fascinate+big crowd+rogue=money!

one of my favorite uses of a bard's music is to get her to start singing, and then the party's rogue walks through the fascinated crowd picking pockets
yup...this equals bank...along with presto. turn coins into rings, sell them at a higher value, and run run run....hehe lots o cash if you use plati coins for the rings
ravenwoode
09-26-06, 07:22 PM Don't forget, at higher levels, a Bard can use Suggestion on creatures already fascinated by him/her.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NerdCoreRocks 09-24-06, 05:39 PM	Hi guys. I don't fully understand the point of the Bard's Fascination effect. What is the point of it standing alone (not in conjunction with the Suggestion effect)? I know the creature affected will sit and watch the bard as long as it doesn't feel threatened and there are no nearby dangers or commotion, and I know it takes a -4 penalty to skill checks made as reactions (Listen/Spot checks). This would help party members to circle around the fascinated creature and attack it right? That seems to be the main point of it to me. Otherwise, who cares if the creature notices/hears a party member who is just trying to sneak past it, because even if the creature hears the sneaker, he's not going to do anything because he's too busy listening to the bard. In this case the creature's not going to get an extra Will save either, because the players are trying to just sneak past the creature and they aren't threatening him in any way. (If I'm wrong about the whole point of fascinating a creature, let me know. Maybe the point IS simply to sneak past the creature, with the bard circling around him last in a wide arc and backing out through a door while the party shuts it and try's to block it quickly afterwards). But if the point of the penalty to the reflexive skill checks (listen/spot) of the affected creature is for PC's to surprise attack it easier (if it fails the check of a PC coming up behind it, then it doesn't feel threatened and get a new Will save against the Bards new Perform DC), then it still doesn't make sense to me. I mean, even if another group member gets within attacking range and draws a sword without the fascinated creature noticing, there are no real bonuses (i.e. no Dexterity penalty to creature) for the attacker sneaking up on the fascinated creature. It seems like a big waste of time for the Bard starting this ability, other than for the party to get in a certain position before combat actually "starts." Should there be a Dexterity penalty that isn't mentioned because the creature is sitting, not moving, and hypnotically watching the Bard? A PC who successfully got behind the creature without it noticing and attacked it should be able to do so easier than if the creature saw it coming, right? If there is no Dexterity loss, then can you at least explain why there is not? Anyways, if there isn't, would the sneaking up to the creature and attacking simply start a surprise round, where it is the only one surprised before it snaps out of it and stops being flat footed a round later? Or is it simply a method to take advantage of initiative order (everyone sneaks around it but the Bard, the person with initiative directly after the creature attacks first, and then everyone gets to attack before the creature gets his turn.) I know this is kind of jumbled, and I ask a lot, but if you could go through it and answer each of my questions line by line I would appreciate it big time. Thanks!
NerdCoreRocks 09-25-06, 08:30 AM	i know this is a complex question, but someone's gotta know the answer?
TheGogmagog 09-25-06, 08:35 AM	I haven't played a bard yet, though it's on my to do list when I am in the right party. But I think the point is to avoid the encounter not to get the jump on it. Whether it's sneaking past or retreating away. That aside, a DM could rule that the opponent is flat footed. Then they would be denied dex and if you have a coordinated attack everyone would get a suprise round. Personally I'd allow this in certain situations specifically, if the opponent would have been supprised anyway. I wouldn't allow a bard to facinate in combat in order to return everyone to flat footed and get a second suprise round. But to facinate a guard before suspicion has set in would allow the group to surround it.
Minias 09-25-06, 08:50 AM	My bard used this power most often when on watch. If some hostile creature(s) were to stumble upon our sleeping camp, and he noticed it, then he could break into a Facination song tyring to hold them at bay until everybody was awake and standing. When everyone is ready they can take turns drawing weapons, buffing spells, etc .., until the Facination effect is broken. It was too bad that I played a self-absorbed, low-wisdom bard that had practically no Spot or Listen skills.
Wargrave 09-25-06, 09:06 AM	I actually won a match in a tournament with it. I otto's irresistable danced my opponant putting him in a non combat mindset, and then fascinated him long enough to sit down and get a gooood suggestion to leave the ring because it was the "right thing to do."
NerdCoreRocks 09-25-06, 02:18 PM	Minias: That sounds like a pretty creative (and intelligent) way to use it. I could see maybe how the point of the ability is to buy the party some time to prep for a battle before the creature both notices an offensive action (casting a spell/drawing a weapon) AND successfully makes a new high enough Will save. I still don't understand why the rules don't account for some penalty to the fascinated creature, if a PC is able to sneak within attacking range behind it and attack it without being noticed. TheGogmagog: I still can't see the ability being used primarily for sneaking. The Bard will have to maintain visual contact with the creature while the rest of his group sneaks by. Then it would be just the Bard and the creature, and the second a Bard were to back away towards his friends and the line of sight was cut off, the creature would snap out of it and attack (because it's not like it didn't remember what just happened. it was just so entralled by the music that it didn't care about anything else for the time being). Also, you commented on how you would only let a Bard use this ability (to cause a creature to be flat footed ala House Rules) before the creature entered combat mode. But what if there was only one creature, and all the PC's sheathed their weapons, backed up, knelt, and the Bard whipped out his flute and started playing? In my opinion, this would easily get rid of "the nearby distraction of combat or other dangers" in order to start the Fascination effect? Then the PC's could stand up, and take a wiiiide circle around the creature until they were out of it's sight. Then they could draw weapons/buff/whatever before attacking (of course which the creature would get -4 Listen checks to hear).
NerdCoreRocks 09-26-06, 01:20 PM	Any other thoughts on my questions? Or is this dead?
Mkire 09-26-06, 06:33 PM	Fascinate+big crowd+rogue=money! one of my favorite uses of a bard's music is to get her to start singing, and then the party's rogue walks through the fascinated crowd picking pockets
demonsinmyhead 09-26-06, 06:43 PM	Fascinate+big crowd+rogue=money! one of my favorite uses of a bard's music is to get her to start singing, and then the party's rogue walks through the fascinated crowd picking pockets yup...this equals bank...along with presto. turn coins into rings, sell them at a higher value, and run run run....hehe lots o cash if you use plati coins for the rings
ravenwoode 09-26-06, 07:22 PM	Don't forget, at higher levels, a Bard can use Suggestion on creatures already fascinated by him/her.