Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Doomclown 04-22-05, 11:14 PM	I'm consiering a gnomish Bard, either as an archer (Arcane Archer?), buffer (possibly Seeker of the Song), or just straight bard. What spell selections have folks had success with for different purposes? Have PHB and Complete series available.
crazymonkdude 04-22-05, 11:34 PM	Some Bardic spells I have enjoyed (although I am not sure they will fit your concept) are: calm emotions (great for stopping fear effects, nulling barbarian rage, and stopping barroom fights), silence (as you are only one of two classes who get it and its uses are numerous-sneaking, sniping, protection from sonic effects and sonic attacks, finding a quiet place to read), and sonic burst (the bard's fireball spell, IMO).
Doomclown 04-22-05, 11:43 PM	I don't really have a concept yet, I initially was thinking Diplomacy-based build but that seems rather reliant on DM fiat. Probably max diplomacy, max UMR, use bardic music primarily in combat along with support flanking with longspear. Couldn't decide of Seeker of the Song was worth coughing up spellcasting, but probably is for all the fun new songs (if I even get to and past 10th level, which is probably unlikely; probably starting at 2nd or 3rd level and going to 10ish). So mainly I just want to hear other people's experiences. Calm Emotions in particular is one I hadn't looked at much, but probably will now, especially as I'm not purely combat-focused.
mrpopstar 04-23-05, 05:40 PM	Doomclown: What other characters will be in the party with your bard? The first thing to consider is wether or not you have to fill-in for a party weakness (as bard's must often do) or if you have the luxury of being a pure bard (which I could surely assist you in maximizing to a level of effectiveness your party will feel they simply could not live without). How many characters in your party total and what classes will they be?
Sapin 04-23-05, 06:00 PM	I tend to play gnomes (and nongnome bards) as golfbags of tricks (Hmmm... the Sand Wedge of Disruption didn't work... how about the 9 Iron of Flaming Burst?) Get your CHA up to stupid, learn all sorts of mass whatever spells, a few buffs, and then you can spend every combat like this: 1. AoE spells while enemies close. 2. Buff allies. 3. Hum the +1 song. Sapin's Winners: Grease Silence and Calm Emotions (already mentioned) Sleep, Confusion, Mirror Image Buffs and Cure X Wounds And of course, Prestidigitation (aka Limited Limited Wish) The goal for a typical bard in combat is not to fight and win, but to make things either a.) easy for your allies or b.) hard for your enemies.
Bael the Bard 04-23-05, 06:08 PM	you could always go 10 levels of bard and then take sublime chord and become like a sorcerer that can also heal, sing songs to buff and talk your way out of sticky situations.
EvilVegan 04-24-05, 12:08 AM	Gnomes get bonuses to illusion spells to, so don't pass that up.
Doomclown 04-24-05, 04:02 PM	Doomclown: What other characters will be in the party with your bard? The first thing to consider is wether or not you have to fill-in for a party weakness (as bard's must often do) or if you have the luxury of being a pure bard (which I could surely assist you in maximizing to a level of effectiveness your party will feel they simply could not live without). How many characters in your party total and what classes will they be? There will probably be five-ish characters. I and a gnome cleric would be joining a party of a ranger, conjurer, and I think a fighter or rogue. So the bases are basically covered I think. I'm not too worried about it anyway (I'll let the DM think about balancing for the party, we aren't a minmaxing group). I also thought about playing a druid gnome, so my cleric buddy would have a mount ^^. But I've never played a bard, and as long as I'm playing a gnome I thought maybe I'd give that a shot. Also, I've never played 3.5 before, so I'm really out of water. Sublime Chord looks kind of interesting, but I'd rather boost my bardic abilities, rather than going off on a sorceror tangent; I've played my share of main spellcasters before. Which is why I was considering Seeker, but I can't tell how useful its abilities are. How difficult is it for bards to get their saveable spells through? Is Grease going to be useless when I hit level 5? Is Heighten Spell worth it?
smrtgmp 04-24-05, 04:35 PM	If your cha is good enough, grease will remain effective for quite some time. A lot of big nasties have poor ref saves, making them prime targets for one of the best first level spells in the game. I'm suprised no one has mentioned Tasha's Hideous Laughter. I love that spell. If you want to focus mostly on being the best bard you can be, the virtuoso is pretty cool. You get your full spell casting, a continuation of your bardic music, plus some cool new songs. IIRC its in the Complere Adventurer. As far as your skills are concerned, I would max out the social ones. Your party is likely lacking in that department, and someone with high diplomacy/bluff/sense motive/etc will make RP sessions much easier. Plus its fun. :) Oh, speaking of social skills, get the Glibness spell when you gain access to it. +30 on bluff checks? Yes please! Oh yeah, UMD is a great skill, and the bard is one of the only classes who has it as a class skill. It also meshes well with a high charisma, which you are likely to have.
mrpopstar 04-24-05, 06:21 PM	:D
mrpopstar 04-24-05, 06:27 PM	Doomclown: A few tips: Avoid feeling useless in combat situations. Bard's are the "charismatic hero." Surely you could select feats, skills and spells that allow you to be noticeably effective in combat but you would be diluting your maximum effectiveness as a Bard. Bard's work through other people. Select spells that effect others. Buff the fighter, buff the mage, buff the cleric, buff the rogue. Buff, buff, buff! Just think of it as having everyone else do your dirty work. Without you, they would be half as effective on their own. Choose feats that keep you out of harms way and choose spells that help everyone else do what they do better. Dig through the Core and Complete books to find "Bard Only" spells. The majority of these spells are flavorful, very useful, as well as unique (which sets you further apart from those "other" arcane casters). After casting your buffs and singing your songs you should add to combat by Aid Another and Flank. Since you have wisely spent your feat slots and skill points on non-combat oriented feats and skills, it is rather easy to hit the DC 10 required for Aid Another and tactically move into a Flanking position to give those fighter-types and rogues some serious bonuses to their attacks/sneak-attacks. Though you have many spell options it is safe to say that you are expected to have the ability to heal. Wether you select Cure spells as spells known or you purchase potions, scrolls or wands of Cure spells (either you break down and purchase these yourself or have everyone pitch in to the healing pool and split the cost), be sure you have the ability. I have witnessed countless home-games and RPGA events where the cleric was down, the druid stayed back in the grove, the paladin is currently atoning and all eyes fell on the bard who coincidentally does not have the ability to heal. Needless to say every misconception held about the bard by all involved was solidified at that moment and the battle to prove the worth of the bard lost much footing. Absolutely have the ability to heal, no matter what the cost. If you have an iconic party of fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue and bard, you should be able to avoid picking up a weapon altogether. Using an instrument (depending on which type) gives added bonuses that stack with all of your other bard abilities. Find yourself some cover and strum, blow, pound or pluck away and see your party through to victory! If combat cannot be avoided then utilize that shortbow proficiency! Keep those dastardly, evil-doers at bay with ranged combat. Chip away at them from afar to assist in combat once you have buffed everyone with spells, belted your inspirational song and are sure you can not move into a tactical position to Aid Another and/or Flank. If you have the ability to Aid Another and/or Flank, do so with the longspear (with which you are proficient) to keep those baddies away from you with the 10' reach. Don't over-look your whip proficiency either. Not even the fighter gets a free ride to Trip and Disarm at 15' range without spending a feat slot on Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Keep in mind that you do not threaten squares into which you can reach with the whip, so Aid Another and Flank are out. Choose spells based on their save. Always have a spell that requires a Reflex save, a spell that requires a Will save, and a spell that requires a Fortitude save at every level and know who is susceptible to what. Nothing hurts more than having a list of spells known that all rely on a low Will save when you come up against an evil wizard (wizard's have high Will saves) or a plethora of spells that rely on a low Fort save when facing an evil, raging barbarian (barbarian's have high Fort saves). Know your opponent and plan accordingly. If he has tons of armor on, toss a spell that relies on a Reflex save. If he is frail looking and not well equiped, toss a spell that relies on a Fort save. Don't forget that first priority is your buffs. Buff, buff, buff (I'll say it again). Target the other guys after you have pumped up your buddies. More often then not, your buffed companions will dispose of the threat before you have to get your hands dirty. Know the rules and keep all of your options open. Bards are most effective when you utilize all of their general abilities in tandem. It seems like a lot of juggling but it is a very fun and rewarding experience once you get the hang of it. You'll also know the ins and outs of the rule system masterfully after your experience of playing a bard. NEVER forget to remind everyone of how wonderfully useful you are to have around and rub it in their face every time success was guaranteed by the annoying, weakling BARD. They'll love you for it. Wear a hat. A big, foppish, feathered, gallon-size, candy-apple red HAT.If I were creating a gnome bard I would choose the following. FEATS: Do not overlook the feats... Lingering Song(CAV) Extra Music(CAV) Obscure Lore(CAV) Subsonics(CAV) Versatile Performer(CAV) Chant of Fortitude(CAV) Ironskin Chant(CAV) Lyric Spell(CAV)...all of which are essentially "Bard Only" feats that really, really hook you up with some nice abilities. Lingering Song, Extra Music, and Obscure Lore are feats that no bard should be without! At first level, the most optimal choice for a bard is Extra Music. This feat allows you to pump out four extra uses of bardic music per day. This is the ultimate contribution of a bard to combat. You absolutely can not go wrong with this feat, which keeps you nice and useful at low levels where bardic music can only be used a very limited amount of times. The next feat that I would take (you mentioned you may be starting out at 3rd level) is a toss-up between Lingering Song and Versatile Performer. If you feel compelled to fight in combat then Lingering Song will appeal to you more since you can cut a song short and your companions will still be reaping the benefits for quite some time after you have finished your bardic music. If you can resist the temptation to do battle then Versatile Performer is wonderful. You can load yourself with varying instruments of different types (these instruments and their effects are described in Complete Adventurer) and switch your performances to best suit the situation at hand. Some of the benefits from these instruments include +1 to attack rolls, which stacks with the +1 from Inspire Courage. A +2 to attack for an entire party is nothing to scoff at when we're dealing with 3rd level characters. SPELLS: Like I said before, dig around for "Bard Only" spells. They allow you to contribute things to combat that other spellcasters can't (because they will be spending resources on arcane offensive nukes and divine defensive protections). Some of the spells I've had the most fun with are as follows..Level 0 Lullaby (PHB Bard Only) Summon Instrument (PHB Bard Only) Mage Hand (PHB Never loses usefulness) Read Magic (PHB Never loses usefulness) Detect Magic (PHB Never loses usefulness) Prestidigation (PHB How clever are you?) Level 1 Distort Speech (Bard Only. Subject's speech is 50% unintelligible; subject may miscast spells. (CAV, Fortitude)) Herald's Call (Bard Only. Swift. Creatures of 5 HD or less within 20ft. slowed for 1 round. (CAV, Will)) Inspirational Boost (Bard Only. Swift. The bonuses granted by your inspire courage ability increase by 1. (CAV, NA)) Joyful Noise (Bard Only. You negate silence in a 10 ft. radius emanation for as long as you concentrate. (CAV, None)) Level 2 Insidious Rhythm (Bard Only. Subject has -4 penalty on Intelligence-based skill checks and Concentration checks, and must make Concentration check to cast spells. (CAV, Will)) Tactical Precision (Bard Only. Allies gain additional +2 bonus on attack rolls and +1d6 additional damage against flanked foes. (CAV, Will harmless)) Invisibility (Subject is invisible for 1 min/level or until it attacks. (PHB, Will harmless)) Cure Moderate Wounds (Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10). (PHB, Will)) Level 3 Dirge of Discord (Bard Only. All within 20 ft. take -4 on attack rolls, Concentration checks, and Dexterity, and reduce speed by 50%. (CAV, Will)) Glibness (Bard Only. You gain +30 bonus on Bluff checks, and your lies can escape magical discernment. (PHB, NA)) Speechlink (Bard Only. You and one other creature can talk, no matter how far apart. (CAV, None)) Sculpt Sound (Bard Only. Creates new sounds or changes existing ones. (PHB, Will)) Level 4 Modify Memory (Bard Only. Changes 5 minutes of subject's memories. (PHB, Will)) War Cry (Bard Only. Swift. Gain +2 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls, or +4 if you charge, for 1 round/level. Any opponent you damage must save or become panicked for 1 round. (CAV, Will))...This list in no way exhausts the many bard spell options. Check out the spells yourself (again keeping an eye out for the "Bard Only" spells) and see which ones appeal to you. If you focus on spells such as Phantom Threat(CAW), which causes the spell's subject to think it's flanked, then you can use Inspirational Boost (+1 to bardic music ability) right into Inspire Courage (+1 to attack) with a horn (+1 to attack) stacking with Phantom Threat (+2 to attack) and give your buddies who are engaged in melee with the spell's subject an effective +5 to attack. They will LOVE you for it. SKILLS: Max out anything charisma based and then go for all of the synergy you can get. Having ranks in Knowledge (History) adds a bonus to your Bardic Knowledge check. Also don't forget that Speak Language is a class skill only for the bard. Take a new language at every level. Communicating is your function. Don't slack, and don't take up a valuable spell slot to know any speak language spells. It is a single skill point per language. Use it. EQUIPMENT: Have a shortbow, longspear, dagger, whip and bludgeoning weapon of choice on hand at all times. This way you cover all of the damage types and are essentially prepared for anything. Don't forget that your greatest weapons are your team-mates (you being the + bonus). Spend your money on Masterwork armor and enhancements. Keep in mind that you are proficient with shields. Use them. Also pick up miscellaneous useful items. thunderstones, everburning torches, antitoxin, tanglefoot bags, etc. You're the party record keeper. Characters paying attention solely to their combat ability or spell-use will love you when you take out the enemy spellcasters with a well-tossed thunderstone or pull out those ever-useful caltrops everyone else forgot to stock. Be creative! BE A BARD!That's all I have right now off the top of my head. I may post more later. Good luck and good gaming!
Nitneuq Onitnarat 04-24-05, 06:51 PM	Mrpopstar, I would like you to have this cookie for that extremly useful post: :cookie: I have a player who is just geting back into D&D and is playing a bard, I'll recomend he read this.
mrpopstar 04-24-05, 07:22 PM	Nitneuq Onitnarat: Thanks! Glad I could be of help. :) I adore the bard class. Always have (since AD&D 2E anyway). I am THE BARD-MASTER!! :evillaugh
MaverickWolf 04-24-05, 08:26 PM	*raises eyebrow* Mrpopstar, you are an amazing man. I think every bad thought I ever had about bards just went out the window. *finally decides that the second class for his gestalt character will be bard, to go along with sorcerer, which is going into Mage of the Arcane Order and then into Archmage*
mrpopstar 04-24-05, 08:46 PM	MaverickWolf: *raises eyebrow* Mrpopstar, you are an amazing man. I think every bad thought I ever had about bards just went out the window.I will make bard-lovers of you all! :plotting: *finally decides that the second class for his gestalt character will be bard, to go along with sorcerer, which is going into Mage of the Arcane Order and then into Archmage*As for my unsolicited opinion on your build, I would suggest that you not multiclass into another arcane spellcasting class if you want to play a character with effective bardic music (unless of course you're just aiming for flavor) because you ultimately have two very similar spell-lists that are too weak to be effective on higher-level encounters. Remember that the bard is an oddity in terms of class-type. It is an arcane caster first and foremost, though the long list of skills can be misleading. One would not multi-class sorcerer/wizard (unless a specific prestige class being aimed for required levels in both) so it is not recommended to multiclass bard/sorcerer or bard/wizard. You don't want to fall behind the curve, which is very simple to do with a bard. Misplaced skill-points and feats chosen on a whim are often crippling mistakes to make with a bard, where each and every aspect of the class is crucial to the working whole.
RaspK FOG 04-25-05, 09:00 AM	:) Fellow bard lovers! YIPEE!!
CaoSlayer 04-25-05, 10:03 AM	check my guide in the sig for a breakdown of every spell on the player´s handbook. --- still, there is some winner spells that should be in nearly every bard´s spell-list because they power. three examples: -grease: it is a buff vs grapple and an area effect spell, it is wonderful if there is a rogue in the party because if someone have to make a balance check without having 5 ranks, he loses all this dex, so a rogue can sneak with every blow against almost any creature or character. -Glitterdust: being able to spot invisible enemies it is nice, but being this a max blind spell makes this a worth selection. -Blink or Displacement Blink it is a selfish spell, can be used only on the bard, but it is maybe the most poweful defense spell in the game, it grants a 50% miss chance against targeret spells and area spells cause half the damage, being this the only spell that grants such protection and can be used ever as a tool because you can pass throught walls or doors. Displacement only it is comparable because can be cast in other people and because there is not 20% own miss chance but can be counted with a true sight spell while blink will still grant a 20% miss in melee and the half damage of spells.
MaverickWolf 04-25-05, 03:24 PM	MaverickWolf: I will make bard-lovers of you all! :plotting: As for my unsolicited opinion on your build, I would suggest that you not multiclass into another arcane spellcasting class if you want to play a character with effective bardic music (unless of course you're just aiming for flavor) because you ultimately have two very similar spell-lists that are too weak to be effective on higher-level encounters. Remember that the bard is an oddity in terms of class-type. It is an arcane caster first and foremost, though the long list of skills can be misleading. One would not multi-class sorcerer/wizard (unless a specific prestige class being aimed for required levels in both) so it is not recommended to multiclass bard/sorcerer or bard/wizard. You don't want to fall behind the curve, which is very simple to do with a bard. Misplaced skill-points and feats chosen on a whim are often crippling mistakes to make with a bard, where each and every aspect of the class is crucial to the working whole. 1.) I don't doubt it. 2.) No worries there. I'm gestalting (Unearthed Arcana, take two classes at once). My sorcerer side is doing all the multi-classing. The bard side will be straight bard. I'm takin' Mage of the Arcane Order because it means I'll be a sorcerer who effectively has EVERY spell possible as a spell known. I'm taking Archmage because, well, who wouldn't as a sorcerer? Charisma is going to be my best friend (I'm probably going to play the party face too). ((And it's not all about min/maxing either...my character has a very specific reason for wanting to attain such heights of power.))
mrpopstar 04-25-05, 06:02 PM	MaverickWolf: No worries there. I'm gestalting (Unearthed Arcana, take two classes at once).Good man! Let me know how it turns out. :)
EvilVegan 04-25-05, 06:33 PM	If you're really torn between bard and druid, perhaps go Folculanahnahan Lyrist. . . its the mystic theurge of druid/bards. Also if you're on the ball, you can mix in sublime chord, and get bard, sorcerer, and druid spells up to some pretty high levels. Bard 7/Druid 1/Rogue 2/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9 nets you 1d6 sneak attack, 4th level druid spells, 9th level sorcerer/bard spells, and almost full bardic song progression. Does anyone have a freaking clue why Evasion is in their requirements?
Doomclown 04-25-05, 07:08 PM	If you're really torn between bard and druid, perhaps go Folculanahnahan Lyrist. . . its the mystic theurge of druid/bards. Nah, wildshape is my favorite part of Druid, and Fochlucan Lyrist doesn't really support that. Which is too bad. Thanks for all the comments, folks.
EvilVegan 04-25-05, 07:15 PM	Arcane Heirophant?