Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nimrodzut 05-21-04, 03:22 PM	:rant: I need someone's opinion on this one... ...I've been running a Forgotten Realms campaign for quite a while now, and one of the player characters has been debating the semantics of the spell "Major Creation" with me for far too long... the spell states (as it references "Minor Creation") that it creates a "...nonmagical, unattented object of nonliving, vegetable matter..." (although, "Major Creation" can make these mineral objects). The spell also has a set range (...25ft. + 5ft./2 lvls) and a set dimension (...items created cannot exceed a volume of 1 cubic foot per caster level). On the surface, one might say, "O.K., what's the problem?" Right? Well, this said player (he's high level now...) isn't simply using this spell (like I think it was originally intended for...) to create simple objects and items, but he's always trying to push this spell into an offensive context. To make it worse, since this spell is actually a spell-like ability for him (...a "perk" from a unintentional transformation the character underwent during the stories' progression...) he's able to "pop" this off at a moment's notice, no spellcasting required. I've repeatedly disallowed him to just drop giant blocks of stone or metal on the N.P.C.'s heads (I've always pushed the fact that the spell uses the word "item" repeatedly in it's description, and, I'm sorry, to me a giant block of stone isn't an item per say, I haven't seen it listed on any of the equipment lists in the Player's Handbook or the Arms and Equipment guide...) and he's always griped about it. This ongoing argument has recently created a new one. Since I make him create actual items with this spell (not just voluminous masses of conjured matter in the sky) he's now found a way, semantically at least, to resurrect the old argument. He's now created the infamous "lead pavillion tent", and he's adamant that it doesn't break the rules of the spell (in a way, I have to conceed, he's right). A pavillion tent is an item (to satisfy that imposed criteria), it's volume (collapsed, at least) would fit into the volume limits of the spell, he can create mineral objects with this spell (hence the lead...), and the spell has a range (so he can create "things in the air"... notably over people's heads... jeesh!) so he doesn't see where I'm coming from when I've got a problem with him bastardizing this spell to use as an "N.P.C. juicer". I've given in, to a point, to this nonsense, and imposed a concentration check on him when this tactic is used in combat (like you would...), and I've given the target a reflex save to escape the falling object (which, at first, created another argument, because the spell lists no save, no S.R.). I realize that it lists these because of the context of the spell, I don't beleive this spell was necessarily meant to be used in this fashion... and unless a spell specifically states otherwise (in context) I believe almost everything should be resistable. What should I do? I think this idea is spawned by the various "Wall of ..." spells, but even they need to be conjured on the ground and then pushed over, not just dropped out of the sky, right? I'd love the opinion of others on this, 'cause I fear all the players (self interested as they are...) are backing him on this and I'm getting a little annoyed at it all (even the "D.M. is always right" argument is losing it's weight... ARRGGHH!). :headexplo :hoppingma :hoppingma :hoppingma :hoppingma :banghead:
Sancus 05-21-04, 03:24 PM	So what? It's an improvised attack, which you get to decide the damage for. And it's your original mistake for giving it to him as spell-like ability that negates its long casting time.
m00 05-21-04, 03:33 PM	This tactic doesn't work for the same reason the old "drop a whale on their head with Summon Monster" doesn't work: A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear withing the spell's range, but it does not have to remain withing range. - Page 172 3.5 PHB So he can summon a block of stone, just not above anyone's head. Problem solved.
Nimrodzut 05-21-04, 03:59 PM	Originally posted by Sancus So what? It's an improvised attack, which you get to decide the damage for. And it's your original mistake for giving it to him as spell-like ability that negates its long casting time. ...I knew that's what would be focused on when I started arguing this online... and I don't think of it as a mistake having given this to him as a spell-like ability (remember context, I know it's a scary word for some gamers... esspecially the ones that try to get away with everything... jeesh!). Let me fully explain myself here... the "brainsurgeons" in the group are arguing that an object that fits into a space of about 9-10 cubic feet, made of lead, should weigh 100's of tons and so do 1000's of D6's of damage... that's the problem! (I think that they're extrapolating these supposed figures by calulating the molecular weight of lead into the equation, finding what the mass/weight of a lead object of the proposed size would be, and then using the "falling obects" formula on p.303 of the D.M.G. to come up with something like 8000 D6 damage...). O.K., I'm all for the creativity of players, and for players coming up with innovative ways to use spells, items, skills, etc., but I know of nothing in any book that does this kind of damage... (...come on, it's a 5th level spell for cryin' out loud! there's no 9th level spell that does near this much damage!) Not even the god's themselves (according to their avatar description in Faiths and Pantheons, at least...) can do this kind of damage (unless, by this logic, they're all tossin' up "lead pavillion tents" everywhere... I mean, my God!). Help! Please somebody with a sense of logic, HELP!!! :banghead:
Seeker95 05-21-04, 04:18 PM	Too many words. Short answer: You're the DM. Tell the player to stuff it. In a way that keeps him playing.
TheAmethystDragon 05-21-04, 04:22 PM	Nimrodzut: As m00 posted, that use of the major creation power is against the rules. His quote is from the Player's Handbook. Of course, there's nothing wrong with the player character creating something heavy on the edge of a cliff or ledge and then pushing said object onto someone :) http://www.amethyst-dragon.com/Aenea/TopFrame/aenea2.gif http://www.amethyst-dragon.com/Aenea/TopFrame/aenea.gif (http://www.amethyst-dragon.com/Aenea) Original Spells: 287 and counting Original Items: 22 and counting www.amethyst-dragon.com/Aenea (http://www.amethyst-dragon.com/Aenea) http://www.amethyst-dragon.com/Aenea/TopFrame/aenea2.gif - All spells, items, and concepts in Aenea use 3.0 rules. - Spells listing a domain are either domain spells or normal spells that appear on the spell list of clerics with that domain. http://www.amethyst-dragon.com/Aenea/TopFrame/aenea2.gif
Sancus 05-21-04, 04:22 PM	Then point them at the rule that moo quoted :P
Kyaran 05-21-04, 04:59 PM	Originally posted by Nimrodzut (remember context, I know it's a scary word for some gamers... esspecially the ones that try to get away with everything... jeesh!) Yes, and those that try to get away with things like this shouldn't be given these kinds of abilities. ;) Originally posted by Nimrodzut something like 8000 D6 damage... There's a cap of 20d6. DMG p303 As m00 said, summon in air = no. I say, line breaks = yes.
Sancus 05-21-04, 05:04 PM	Much more fun is creating Alchemist's Fire :P
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 05-21-04, 05:22 PM	Originally posted by Kyaran There's a cap of 20d6. DMG p303 The falling damage caps at 20d6. The damage from weight does not cap.
Zherog 05-21-04, 07:14 PM	From the SRD, Falling Objects section (emphasis added): FALLING OBJECTS Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects. Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen. For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage). There is indeed a cap on the damage. In addition, m00 provided you the perfect quote to end this argument - he simply cannot conjure the item in mid-air.
IceFractal 05-21-04, 07:15 PM	Its true, the damage from weight doesn't cap at 20d6, it doesn't cap at all, and for a good reason, if it did cap then a mountain dropped on someone's head would do the same damage as a large crate. However, the rule about not summoning stuff in the air is completely valid, so the tactic he's using doesn't really work, unless he's creating the stuff on the ground and then teleporting it up there. Since he can't summon it above people you might as well let him create blocks of lead, not that he'll necessarily want to now.
Sancus 05-21-04, 07:17 PM	nd for a good reason, if it did cap then a mountain dropped on someone's head would do the same damage as a large crate. It does, in fact.
cwslyclgh 05-21-04, 07:23 PM	if it did cap then a mountain dropped on someone's head would do the same damage as a large crate. Similar to the way a person who falls 200 feet takes the same amount of damage as the guy who falls for 2 miles?
Zherog 05-21-04, 07:38 PM	Originally posted by IceFractal Its true, the damage from weight doesn't cap at 20d6, it doesn't cap at all, Oh, but it does. I've provided the relavant quote from the SRD.
TheAmethystDragon 05-21-04, 07:58 PM	...For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight... Big object, big damage....1000 pound object = 5d6 + 1d6 per ten feet of falling :) Just my interpretation of that SRD quote... http://www.amethyst-dragon.com/Aenea/TopFrame/aenea2.gif http://www.amethyst-dragon.com/Aenea/TopFrame/aenea.gif (http://www.amethyst-dragon.com/Aenea) Original Spells: 288 and counting Original Items: 22 and counting www.amethyst-dragon.com/Aenea (http://www.amethyst-dragon.com/Aenea) http://www.amethyst-dragon.com/Aenea/TopFrame/aenea2.gif - All spells, items, and concepts in Aenea use 3.0 rules. - Spells listing a domain are either domain spells or normal spells that appear on the spell list of clerics with that domain. http://www.amethyst-dragon.com/Aenea/TopFrame/aenea2.gif
Zherog 05-21-04, 08:21 PM	Originally posted by TheAmethystDragon Big object, big damage....1000 pound object = 5d6 + 1d6 per ten feet of falling :) Just my interpretation of that SRD quote... Right - to a maximum damage of 20d6.
Seeker95 05-21-04, 08:48 PM	The maximum damage would be 20d6 + 1d6/200 pounds of weight. Maximum falling-onto-you damage is: [1d6 / 200# (fixed-no max)] + [1d6/10' (max 20d6)] The mountain and the crate would the same additional damage assuming they were dropped from the same height. But the mountain will do more damage because it has a lot more 200 pound 1d6 damage units than the crate. The 20d6 limit applies only to the sentence to which it is appended.
Zherog 05-21-04, 09:38 PM	Upon rereading, I can accept Seeker's interpretation as being the intended rule. I'm about to make board's history. Ready? I was wrong. Seeker was right. *shudder* I feel so dirty now. :P :P :P
Sancus 05-21-04, 09:58 PM	This thread makes me feel dirty.
Seeker95 05-21-04, 10:32 PM	Originally posted by Zherog I was wrong. Seeker was right. You know this simply *must* go into my sig! :P
smrtgmp 05-21-04, 11:31 PM	I should add your concent from the "anti-scent spell" thread to my sig. ;) Given your nearly flawless track record, you probably dont post too many of those.
Aranael 05-22-04, 06:01 AM	Hmmm.... I wonder, two things, and idly. 1) Must an object be created Balanced on said surface? As in, let us suppose there is a stalagmite (made of lead, apparently, as it can support this weight). Can you create an object "on a surface capable of supporting it" and NOT "Floating in midair", but not on its center of balance, even though laws of balance say that within moments of creation it will tumble off of it, onto whatever is below? Stretching it a bit, the ground is capable of supporting it, so can you create it on the ground... in part? I'm thinking something like a lightpost with a ridiculously heavy part for the "light", which will cause it to immediately fall over, or even just a block, put on edge, and Almost to center of balance, so that it tips in the desired direction? Not asking "Should the DM allow this" (Answer: NO), just having some fun with somantics, and asking if the rules allow this by their wording. 2) It says an object deals 1d6 per 200 pounds, and an additional 1d6 for every 10 feet. Now, here's what I'm thinking. So, you drop 100 200 pound cubes, all of which are set up to hit this poor guy, somehow. (Not too hard if they are lead and the creature is massive) From the height where you hit damage cap. Now, this poor guy gets hit for (1d6 + 20d6) x 100, or 2100d6. Now, join all those cubes into one, that is 10x longer on a side. Now it falls, and deals only (100d6 + 20d6), or 120d6. Max falling increases in damage are based off of the concept of air resistance. You REALLY DO get as messed up from falling 2000 ft as 2 miles, as at some point your increase to speed perfectly balances the air's resistance to your falling, thus, you remain at a max speed (often called "terminal velocity"). The same happens to objects, so a feather (high air resistance) can fall 2 miles and drift casually onto a baby's nose for no damage. A Penny (Very Low air resistance) can fall 2 miles and become an object of Death. In simplified AD&D terms, this relates to cap on damage for falling, both To something and From something. However, I'm thinking it might have been intended to be the more logical (though more frightening) (1d6 + 1d6/10ft (max 20d6)) / 200 pounds. Meaning, it can do a maximum of 20d6/200 pounds (no cap). This would be the most logical real-life way to do it, from a physics standpoint, and would not really be broken (they go to great pains to ensure you can't really make mountains fall on someone that often) from a game balance perspective. Thoughts? (Incidentally, in the above example, the cube would then deal 2000d6, as would the hundred separate cubes, as the separate cubes were dealing 21d6 / 200 lbs, since the damage cap was being treated as one for falling distance only, and they were separate, so the one increases damage massively, the other loses a bit of damage.) (Maybe at the end of the day I dislike the idea that a lead sheet dropped on a dragon can deal max 120d6 damage, but cut that lead sheet into 10 rows and 10 columns, and suddenly the damage it does increases 20 fold. Maybe that's just me, too, but meh.)
Lilt 05-22-04, 09:34 AM	Block of lead floating is out, I'm with the 20d6 max being applied to the distance damage rather than the weight damage. As for imbalanced objects: Re-quoting Moo ... It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. It depends what your reading of that is, but 'on a surface capible of supporting it', to me at-least, rules-out an object that's not sufficiently supported. Balanced on a surface I would allow, but the GM could easily rule-out some tall, thin, heavy, shapes as they could sink into the ground significantly, thus they aren't on a surface capible of supporting it.
TheGogmagog 05-22-04, 11:32 AM	Aside from the solid ground text... I would also argue that spell like abilities are not automatically standard actions. Purely from memory, I believe they are usually standard actions, unless otherwise stated. Tell him you were mistaken about the change in casting time, and return it to 10 minutes to invoke.
Lilt 05-22-04, 11:39 AM	It's not specified exactly where it has to be stated though. All spells have a casting time listed. If the standard casting times took presidence then why would it bother stating that they were standard actions? there is an argument that the stated alternate casting time could be something in the creature's description, although I admit that I can't think of any examples.
Seeker95 05-22-04, 04:32 PM	Originally posted by Lilt It's not specified exactly where it has to be stated though. I believe it is in the FAQ, but will not bet on it, that the "standard action unless otherwise stated" means unless the description of the spell-like ability says otherwise.