Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wal9000 09-16-06, 05:50 PM	I'm playing a beguiler, and I've found that in combat I've mostly been using the save or die enchantment spells (such as hold monster), or spells like haste and slow. I'd like to add a bit of variety and start using my illusions to hinder opponents, and just to annoy them in general. What sort of strategies do people have for the spells Silent Image, Minor Image, and Major Image? Some of the obvious ones I've come up with are covering pits with illusory floors, adding extra walls, concealing doorways with the same material as the surrounding walls, creating fake fire to deter enemies (major image does thermal effects), or scattering (fake) caltrops across the floor. As a side note, I will be taking Extraordinary Concentration (from Complete Adventurer) next level, so I'll be able to concentrate on the illusions while performing other actions. What other illusions have people found useful?
Book 09-16-06, 08:10 PM	A lot depends on how much knowledge your caster has on a given enemy's cultural or individual-specific psychology. Rolling the appropriate Knowledge skill check (or Bard Lore check for that matter) helps here. This way you can possibly come up with illusions specifically geared to deal with an enemy's "worst fear". Creating figments of these "worst fears" help ensure that your enemies are less likely to want to interact with them. Meaning you get a better percentage chance that they won't want to interact with it ... meaning they get no save attempt versus the figment. :D And if an enemy is fearful about interacting with a given figment, they are probably reacting to it in a way that you (the caster) intended which often means the spell becomes a tactical success.
BoDiddilly 09-16-06, 08:41 PM	This may not be a build that intrest you but the Idea that came to mind when I first saw the beguiller was to use mirror image in conjunction w/ the feats goad and or fade in to violance to control combat. The detail elude me but basicly with the two feats I can make a cha based check opposed by a sense motive check to eighter persuade targets to attack me or confront treats other then me. while using mirror image I can fade into violence causing enemies to choose incorrect targets by default. Then goad them to continue. Weather you use the Goad build or not vantrilliquist, blink, and displace make mirror image very fun. An enemy could choose the correct target and still beleive he's choosen another image if he miss based on your displacement. If you use blink and displace there's little chance that your enemies will be able to pick you from a mass of blinking clone, specailly sense contact with attacks will no longer seperate images from real, Even if they would only have a 25% chance of making contact. Additionally you can taunt them with vantrilliquism and suggestions for pure humor, Ghost sound a faultsly revealling foot from one, or use alter self prior to mirror image to create more confusion. you can use silent image to clone dancing weapons and quaal whip tokens Major image a clone for an allie. Major image large, huge, or gargantuan creatures and then using consentration and vantrilliquism make intimidation checks using you skill bonus adn thier size modifier.
infideli 09-16-06, 09:39 PM	Darn, man... I had blocked-out memories of old school Illusion tactics for purposes of secrecy, and you reveal them openly. One tactic that I don't mind sharing is to mirror REAL spells... meaning that you cast an illusionary fireball right after the party wizard casts one. The enemy will have a more difficult time seeing through it than if you did it alone. Also, if a creature has been summoned or even if one is attacking the party, an illussion or one being "summoned" can really freak people out. Especially if you have a perfom (acting) or maybe a bluff cheak. I used to yell "Flames of Hell consume thee!" in the appropriate language before casting my fake fire spells. My party would know that I had real fire spells, and fake ones that I "announced" with varying dramatic phrases. Yelling out "vampire's fog" and creating a mist filled with fangs... that will deter ANYBODY from walking through. A wall of fire to protect yourself A fake "prismatic sphere" or "globe of invulnerability" to deter spells being cast at you. A fake "rust monster" to scare away warriors. Lots of good stuff... the only issue is duration after concentration. G
BoDiddilly 09-16-06, 10:10 PM	- need someone to move try overrunning them with an illusionary summoned monster they my opt to move - make spells appear to last beyond their duration - Improv a disarm by put a snake on someones haft
Book 09-16-06, 11:38 PM	Lots of good stuff... the only issue is duration after concentration.This is easily fixable by getting the most excellent Extraordinary Concentration feat from the Complete Adventurers book. Or alternately, the Imp. Familiar Concentration feat from LEoF.
BoDiddilly 09-16-06, 11:58 PM	where exactly is consintration a problem?:)
Book 09-17-06, 12:59 AM	where exactly is consintration a problem?:)Silent Image's need for constant concentration. Pound for pound, Silent Image is the most effective, scaleable 1st level spell in the game from levels 1 through 20. Assuming that the spell is being helmed by a creative and rules-savvy spellcaster player and a DM who can properly ajudicate the figment spells. At 18th level of play, I've been able to get enemies in the CR 18 (approx.) range to waste a number of their actions and attacks just trying to figure out or remove the threat of the Silent Image. And that's immensely powerful at that level where individual attack sequences can spell instant death for parties.
Sines 09-17-06, 02:21 AM	Bluff check combined with Illusory Summoned monsters will scare off any enemies who might decide that actually fighting you is a bad idea. And, if you take a look at the are of silent image, its 4 10ft cubes, + 1 cube per level. At level 1 you can affect 5 10 ft cubes, or similar area. If you put a monster in every 5ft cube, you could 'summon' 32 + 8/level monsters. Now, at that point, enemies automatically get thier save (Because the most you can summon is something like 5 from a summon monster affecting much lower level creatures.) which they can still fail, or they think you are an obscenely powerful wizard. Even if they are suspicious, thats certain death if they're real. I don't see much benefit from illusory evocations, enemies don't really lose anything from reacting to fireballs and whatnot. Anyway, Silent Image is great, though higher levels are needed as your enemies have far too many senses for thier own good (Bloody scent...)
BoDiddilly 09-17-06, 02:34 AM	agreed but for many of these thicks 3rnds will do. Also isn't possable to avoid concentration by activating a wand of silent image every other round to recreate the image, or simply stack the duration sense your hitting the same area? Being able to push aside concentration for a short period of time woud be very helpful
BoDiddilly 09-17-06, 02:55 AM	couple of new thoughts - prestidigition adds smell to images - If using greater blink makes the mirror image concept even better - If you alter self to look like an allie while in major image you can share your images and diversion benifits with him though this may require some acting
pmurray@bigpond.com 09-17-06, 04:32 AM	I'm playing a beguiler, and I've found that in combat I've mostly been using the save or die enchantment spells (such as hold monster), or spells like haste and slow. I'd like to add a bit of variety and start using my illusions to hinder opponents, and just to annoy them in general. I haven't played a beguiler, but maybe the character class does not do well in a combat-heavy campaign, as opposed to more role-play urban adventure settings.
Waylander 09-17-06, 05:56 AM	Darn, man... I had blocked-out memories of old school Illusion tactics for purposes of secrecy, and you reveal them openly. One tactic that I don't mind sharing is to mirror REAL spells... meaning that you cast an illusionary fireball right after the party wizard casts one. The enemy will have a more difficult time seeing through it than if you did it alone. Also, if a creature has been summoned or even if one is attacking the party, an illussion or one being "summoned" can really freak people out. Especially if you have a perfom (acting) or maybe a bluff cheak. I used to yell "Flames of Hell consume thee!" in the appropriate language before casting my fake fire spells. My party would know that I had real fire spells, and fake ones that I "announced" with varying dramatic phrases. Yelling out "vampire's fog" and creating a mist filled with fangs... that will deter ANYBODY from walking through. A wall of fire to protect yourself A fake "prismatic sphere" or "globe of invulnerability" to deter spells being cast at you. A fake "rust monster" to scare away warriors. Lots of good stuff... the only issue is duration after concentration. G Unfortunately, a lot of these are worthless vs a spellcaster, who can easily call a spellcraft check and know that you are casting a spell from the school of illusion. Of course the secret to avoiding spellcasters knowing what you got is the bluff skill used to make yourself look like you are casting the correct school not the illusionary school of magic.
Book 09-17-06, 12:37 PM	Since the OP is playing a Beguiler, surreptiously casting Silent Image (or any other illusion spell for that matter) out-of-perception range of enemies with the Spellcraft skill is rather easy. Again, for those of you concerned about the Concentration aspect of figment spells, a Beguiler gets more mileage out of the Ext. Concentration feat than any other caster. The feat effectively allows him to multi-task with relative ease.
wal9000 09-17-06, 01:46 PM	Since the OP is playing a Beguiler, surreptiously casting Silent Image (or any other illusion spell for that matter) out-of-perception range of enemies with the Spellcraft skill is rather easy. Again, for those of you concerned about the Concentration aspect of figment spells, a Beguiler gets more mileage out of the Ext. Concentration feat than any other caster. The feat effectively allows him to multi-task with relative ease. That's what I was thinking about ext. concentration too. We should hit 12th soon, and I'll finally be able to hit 15 ranks in concentration and take it. Already picked up skill focus concentration, because it's just better than combat casting (+3 all the time instead of +4 maybe twice a session). On a side note, if I were to extend the ground out past a cliff (or just over a deep pit) through use of silent image, would "Go stand to the left of that boulder" or similar command be a reasonable suggestion? Seems reasonable to me, but I suppose the DM is the one who matters.
Optimator 09-17-06, 07:07 PM	I've always been a n00bxor with crafty illusion use, so I find this thread severely informing. Especially Book's proclamation about how well silent image is. I want to make a beguiler now!:tantrum:
BoDiddilly 09-17-06, 09:44 PM	Since the OP is playing a Beguiler, surreptiously casting Silent Image (or any other illusion spell for that matter) out-of-perception range of enemies with the Spellcraft skill is rather easy. Don't forget about silent/still spells Which brings up a good question. If you use silent/still silent image to create a faults spell, couldn't you act out the acually casting of the spell using bluff and or spellcraft?
epifreak 09-18-06, 03:35 AM	On a side note, if I were to extend the ground out past a cliff (or just over a deep pit) through use of silent image, would "Go stand to the left of that boulder" or similar command be a reasonable suggestion? Seems reasonable to me, but I suppose the DM is the one who matters. I don't see why not, seeing as how the spell description manages to justify throwing someone into lava via clever wording of suggestion (I am thinking of the right spell, right?)
wal9000 09-18-06, 05:03 PM	I don't see why not, seeing as how the spell description manages to justify throwing someone into lava via clever wording of suggestion (I am thinking of the right spell, right?) Yes, but what if the person had seen the ground before the illusion, and knew that there was a hole somewhere? Would they get a save do disbelieve even before interacting with it?
epifreak 09-18-06, 05:56 PM	Yes, but what if the person had seen the ground before the illusion, and knew that there was a hole somewhere? Would they get a save do disbelieve even before interacting with it? You're a beguilier, so I'm assuming you've got bluff through the roof. "That was an illusion that I just dispelled, which was to prevent you from reaching the safety on the other side of that boulder; you should go stand on the other side of that boulder so you won't get struck by a meteor."
BoDiddilly 09-18-06, 09:21 PM	I would say would say that sort of move is more appropriate for a sub-epic character out side of combat. But genrally speak bluffs, charms, and Illusions make suggestions more plausable. If you really like this idea you could make it more effectine by causing a jut a land to grow out from the cliff as you walk out. This lying to their eyes and not their ears to avoid skill checks.
Monster_Jam 09-20-06, 02:56 PM	Interesting post – I was looking for a thread just like this. I am an experienced DM who occasionally gets to play on the other side of the screen, and have always considered playing an illusionist. I am keen on its weaknesses, but also cognizant of its strengths. Interestingly enough, most players that I have had that wanted to be illusionists simply weren’t creative enough to make the class rewarding. Further, as I get ready to start a new campaign as a player, I have second thoughts about playing an illusionist type (strictly as an illusionist) is that we will be playing a Dungeon magazine Adventure Path, and these adventures are likely to use undead and other menaces all but immune to illusions spells. Decisions, decisions. In any case, I am running an Adventure Path campaign, and at the time, the PCs are high level. I plan on introducing a quite capable dragon into the mix (Blue) whom uses Major Image as a primary weapon, while other dragons do the dirty work. I was hoping that this thread could add a few strategies, but I think my initial strategy covered all that this thread had to offer. When this battle goes off, the Blue dragon will soar at a significant distance invisibly generating his illusions. Spellcraft checks won’t be an issue for the dragon. From a strategy point of view, I am only looking to cause one or more players’ PCs to waste one round; anything beyond that is gravy. Ultimately, players and DMs alike must recognize that illusion spells are severely limited in capacity. That is not to say they are not effective; just that they are limited. Below were some of my ideas before finding this post: Encasing a character in a cube of force, sphere of ice, sphere of stone, sphere of iron, etc. Like all illusionary effects, it is meant to stall a character. (In a case such as this, all dragons focus their breath weapon on this person whom might think they are protected). Dragons and/or Hill Giants that emerge from door-ways, around corners, etc. to join the fight.
Monster_Jam 09-20-06, 03:01 PM	Its also worth mentioning that as a players months ago, I was playing a druid. I have been getting pounded on by the DMs monsters because of my exposure during summoning. In a critical round where a friend was at risk of death from one more blow, my PC began summoning a monster. The enemy hit me, not the friend. But I wasn't really summoning....I was just bluffing, without rolling the dice. In retrospect, as a player I think I might have cheated - I should have been honest with the DM so he could have asked for a bluff or spellcraft check. But ultimately what I am saying is that a good illusionist doesn't rely on his spells - they rely on deception in any manner that is available.
boozerker 09-20-06, 10:56 PM	What if you have an illusion of a large cave opening on the wall of the other side of a 15 foot wide gorge, and an illusion of you jumps across so that an opponent may follow? Only thing is, there is no gorge -- it's a cliff with nothing beyond. Or your real PC can do the jump if you have a feather fall spell handy :) I used to yell "Flames of Hell consume thee!" in the appropriate language before casting my fake fire spells. My party would know that I had real fire spells, and fake ones that I "announced" with varying dramatic phrases. Yelling out "vampire's fog" and creating a mist filled with fangs... that will deter ANYBODY from walking through. Wouldn't yelling something to better fool opponents need a bluff check?
Kamikaze Chicken 09-21-06, 09:49 AM	SRD: Major Image Illusion (Figment) Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Duration: Concentration + 3 rounds This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, and thermal illusions are included in the spell effect. While concentrating, you can move the image within the range. The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately. Emphasis mine. I have found one constant use for this spell. Create the image of a big bulky looking fighter of some type, and set him on the battle field as to entertain the main tank of the enemies. Have him "use total defense" never striking the oponent only blocking his blows with shield and sword. So long as you can maintain concentration and have the figment "react apropriatly"[ie block most atrtacks and take a few hits] the low will save fighter types will be kept busy by your "body gaurd" Furthe rmore, as a beguiler the dc on your illusion spells shoul dbe highe rif you use veiled casting correct? even the better. Another nasty illusion trick i remember using once cvame in combination with my other favored first level spell: Burning hands. I was playing a low level elven sorcerer, and had minor image and burning hands. round one: baddies charge me but cant reach me. My turn: I let loose a loud roar of rage and use minor image to change my countencance to that of a half red dragon. Baddies hesitate to attack due to my nicer bluff check. My turn: roast baddies with burning hands a la a "breath of flame" round three: rest of badies soil armour and surrender. Illusion can be veery powerful when couple with subterfuge, and coercive skills.