Bead of Force Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bead of Force Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Inyotef
07-06-06, 09:47 AM I've got a couple of questions about the Bead of Force. When used, does it have both the explosive capability and the Otiluke's Resilient Sphere spell capability at the same time...or do you have to choose one or the other? In addition, when used against a target (such as the Otiluke's part), do you have to make a ranged attack of some sort?
tarkin
07-06-06, 10:48 AM It has both the explosive and the capture power at the same time.

Treat it like a splash weapon, targetting a specific grid intersection.

That is, ranged touch attack AC5, with a range increment of 60 ft, so you can't miss by more than 5 ft. As it explodes in 10 ft, you will definitely get all creatures in the 4 squares you originally targetted, but you might not get the exact area you wanted.

In addition, a natural 1 on your attack roll, followed by a failed DC 10 Dex check should indicate dropping the bead at your feat. Not a good idea.

I would also House Rule that a natural 1 on your attack roll, followed by a made DC 10 dex check means you missed by 10ft, not 5ft, probably entirely missing your intended targets.
SoldierOfFortune187
07-06-06, 10:52 AM (edit - beaten to the punch)
Dragonteuthis
07-06-06, 10:58 AM In addition, a natural 1 on your attack roll, followed by a failed DC 10 Dex check should indicate dropping the bead at your feat. Not a good idea.

Book and page number reference for this rule, please?

...If it exists....
tarkin
07-06-06, 11:00 AM The rule "Dex check DC 10 on a natural 1 is a dropped weapon" is from The Player's Handbook. It is not in the SRD (just as XP /level is not). As I am at work, I can't give you the page number.

But that is the core rule for a natural 1.
Zherog
07-06-06, 11:58 AM I'd be curious to see the page number reference later when you get a chance, Tarkin. I don't recall ever seeing that rule either.
RecycledDM
07-06-06, 12:41 PM Treat it like a splash weapon, targetting a specific grid intersection.

Tarkin, I usually have the utmost respect for your interpretations; but I have to disagree with you on this. Nothing in the bead of force description indicates that it is to be treated as ANY kind of weapon--splash, ranged, or otherwise; quote from SRD:

Bead of Force
This small black sphere appears to be a lusterless pearl. You can throw it up to 60 feet with no range penalties. Upon sharp impact, the bead explodes, sending forth a burst that deals 5d6 points of force damage to all creatures within a 10-foot radius.

It functions like a resilient sphere spell (Reflex DC 16 negates) with a radius of 10 feet and a duration of 10 minutes. A globe of shimmering force encloses a creature, provided the latter is small enough to fit within the diameter of the sphere. The sphere contains its subject for the spell’s duration. The sphere is not subject to damage of any sort except from a rod of cancellation, a rod of negation, disintegrate, or a targeted dispel magic spell. These effects destroy the sphere without harm to the subject. Nothing can pass through the sphere, inside or out, though the subject can breathe normally. The subject may struggle, but the globe cannot be physically moved either by people outside it or by the struggles of those within.

The explosion completely consumes the bead, making this a one-use item.

Moderate evocation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, resilient sphere; Price 3,000 gp.

As I read this:
-The item can be thrown with no range penalties as far as 60 feet--but, since it is NOT a "weapon," it has no range increment, and thus can be thrown not one foot farther.
-As it is not a "weapon," no attack roll of any kind need be made; thus, the object always lands exactly where you want it to (subject to the range restriction above)...AND you can't fumble it (whether core or not).
-The 5d6 burst occurs no matter what or where you target; but to get the resilient sphere functionality, you must specifically target a creature, considering the spell description says the sphere must be centered on a creature.

SRD quote on resilient sphere:

Resilient Sphere
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: 1-ft.-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

A globe of shimmering force encloses a creature, provided the creature is small enough to fit within the diameter of the sphere. The sphere contains its subject for the spell’s duration. The sphere is not subject to damage of any sort except from a rod of cancellation, a rod of negation, a disintegrate spell, or a targeted dispel magic spell. These effects destroy the sphere without harm to the subject. Nothing can pass through the sphere, inside or out, though the subject can breathe normally.

The subject may struggle, but the sphere cannot be physically moved either by people outside it or by the struggles of those within.

So the upshot is, I believe the object is much safer (to the user) and infinitely more accurate than you make it out to be; but the downside is that it has a strict range cap of 60'.
meabolex
07-06-06, 12:55 PM The rule "Dex check DC 10 on a natural 1 is a dropped weapon" is from The Player's Handbook. It is not in the SRD (just as XP /level is not). As I am at work, I can't give you the page number.

But that is the core rule for a natural 1.

A critical failure with a weapon is a houserule -- as is the dexterity check. Critical failures on saving throws does have additional consequences, but not attack rolls.
tarkin
07-06-06, 02:13 PM meabolex: You may call it a House Rule, but it is written in the Players Handbook. It might be a variant rule, but that is different from a 'House Rule'.

RecycledDM: You are making a lot of things up.
I never said you could throw it more than 60ft. I said you could miss, but that does not mean you have to be over. The DM to say "if you are off and you are aiming at 60ft it must be short, not 'over'."

Go back and re-read your quotes. No where does it say it is not a weapon. Nor does it say you can't fumble. Nor does it say you can't get more than a single creature. You are making all that up, with zero evidence for the to hit/fumble, and only circumstantial for the one creature (spell description that the item is based on). I at least am looking at wording of the item itself for all my evidence.

It just says it can be thrown 60 ft but not one bit further - just like all the magical ranged attacks that require to hits. Scorching Ray, Acid Arrow, Polar Ray, etc. etc.

To sum up:

1) It does not say it automatically hits
2) It does not you can't fumble it
3) It uses words that strongly imply that you have to roll a to hit (throw)
4) It uses words that strongly imply that it can fumble ( sharp impact, as opposed to "when it hits the target')

If you want to convince me describe what you think happens in these worst case scenarios:

Scenario 1) You are 20 ft away from a brick wall with a tiny arrow slit in it. There is a Hurricane class storm going on. Your opponent is 40 ft away on the other side of the wall.

Are you going to stand there and tell me you can throw that force bead, during that storm, through the tiny arrow slit, and get your enemey?

Scenario 2) You are standing exactly behind a clear, invisible force wall that totally blocks your right side, but your left side is clear (allowing Line of Effect). You don't realize this, and draw and throw the bead with your right hand.

Are you going to stand there and tell me the beed whips off to the left, goes around the force wall, and hits the target?
RecycledDM
07-06-06, 03:51 PM I take an interest in this thread because I gave one of my players a bead of force, and, after rereading the description 10 times, I'm still working out how I'm going to adjudicate it. To that end, bear in mind that I am debating my initial line of thought here to whatever logical (even, perhaps, absurd) conclusion it reaches...I am open to having my mind changed!

===================

Go back and re-read your quotes. No where does it say it is not a weapon. Nor does it say you can't fumble. Nor does it say you can't get more than a single creature. You are making all that up, with zero evidence for the to hit/fumble, and only circumstantial for the one creature (spell description that the item is based on). I at least am looking at wording of the item itself for all my evidence.

It just says it can be thrown 60 ft but not one bit further - just like all the magical ranged attacks that require to hits. Scorching Ray, Acid Arrow, Polar Ray, etc. etc.

Nowhere does the description say that the item is a weapon. Also, I did not say you could not trap more than one creature, only that, like the spell says, it must be centered on one creature. And since, unlike rays, resilient sphere is not a ranged attack requiring an attack roll, why should the bead of force require an attack roll?

To sum up:

1) It does not say it automatically hits
2) It does not you can't fumble it
3) It uses words that strongly imply that you have to roll a to hit (throw)
4) It uses words that strongly imply that it can fumble ( sharp impact, as opposed to "when it hits the target')

By my interpretation (and we do seem to differ in our interpretations), the bead of force is essentially, for lack of a better description, a "spell in pellet form." Since the spell in question does not require a to-hit roll, then: you cannot "miss," it does automatically "hit" (subject to target spell resistance and saving throw, of course) and you can't "fumble" it.

If you want to convince me describe what you think happens in these worst case scenarios:

Scenario 1) You are 20 ft away from a brick wall with a tiny arrow slit in it. There is a Hurricane class storm going on. Your opponent is 40 ft away on the other side of the wall.

Are you going to stand there and tell me you can throw that force bead, during that storm, through the tiny arrow slit, and get your enemey?

You cannot get your enemy in this case, but only because the arrow slit is presumably smaller than 1 sqft (the minimum sized "hole" to get line of effect to cast a spell through). The hurricane is irrelevant.

I will backtrack a bit here and say that you must specifically target a creature with the bead of force (as you would have to with the resilient sphere spell), and therefore cannot target an empty space. This also covers my butt when the next question comes, "what happens if I throw the bead at the arrow slit anyway?" Answer: since you did not have line of effect, you were unable to effectively target the creature, so the bead does not function and is wasted.

Scenario 2) You are standing exactly behind a clear, invisible force wall that totally blocks your right side, but your left side is clear (allowing Line of Effect). You don't realize this, and draw and throw the bead with your right hand.

Are you going to stand there and tell me the beed whips off to the left, goes around the force wall, and hits the target?

The bead of force cannot get through a wall of force if you do not have line of effect. If you threw the bead at a force wall, it would not function and would be wasted, just as if you tried to cast resilient sphere through the wall of force.

That being said, there is neither handedness nor facing in D&D 3.5; and, as I've expressed, I see the bead as just a spell in "pellet form." So if, as is the case in your example, the wall of force has been set up so that there is a gap of more than 1 sqft allowing line of effect between you and your target, then yes, the bead of force works just fine and affects the target.

==================

The thing that perplexes me about this item is the 5d6 burst of force damage. Where does that come from? Not from the resilient sphere spell used to craft it, and no other spell is listed in the crafting!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Inyotef 07-06-06, 09:47 AM	I've got a couple of questions about the Bead of Force. When used, does it have both the explosive capability and the Otiluke's Resilient Sphere spell capability at the same time...or do you have to choose one or the other? In addition, when used against a target (such as the Otiluke's part), do you have to make a ranged attack of some sort?
tarkin 07-06-06, 10:48 AM	It has both the explosive and the capture power at the same time. Treat it like a splash weapon, targetting a specific grid intersection. That is, ranged touch attack AC5, with a range increment of 60 ft, so you can't miss by more than 5 ft. As it explodes in 10 ft, you will definitely get all creatures in the 4 squares you originally targetted, but you might not get the exact area you wanted. In addition, a natural 1 on your attack roll, followed by a failed DC 10 Dex check should indicate dropping the bead at your feat. Not a good idea. I would also House Rule that a natural 1 on your attack roll, followed by a made DC 10 dex check means you missed by 10ft, not 5ft, probably entirely missing your intended targets.
SoldierOfFortune187 07-06-06, 10:52 AM	(edit - beaten to the punch)
Dragonteuthis 07-06-06, 10:58 AM	In addition, a natural 1 on your attack roll, followed by a failed DC 10 Dex check should indicate dropping the bead at your feat. Not a good idea. Book and page number reference for this rule, please? ...If it exists....
tarkin 07-06-06, 11:00 AM	The rule "Dex check DC 10 on a natural 1 is a dropped weapon" is from The Player's Handbook. It is not in the SRD (just as XP /level is not). As I am at work, I can't give you the page number. But that is the core rule for a natural 1.
Zherog 07-06-06, 11:58 AM	I'd be curious to see the page number reference later when you get a chance, Tarkin. I don't recall ever seeing that rule either.
RecycledDM 07-06-06, 12:41 PM	Treat it like a splash weapon, targetting a specific grid intersection. Tarkin, I usually have the utmost respect for your interpretations; but I have to disagree with you on this. Nothing in the bead of force description indicates that it is to be treated as ANY kind of weapon--splash, ranged, or otherwise; quote from SRD: Bead of Force This small black sphere appears to be a lusterless pearl. You can throw it up to 60 feet with no range penalties. Upon sharp impact, the bead explodes, sending forth a burst that deals 5d6 points of force damage to all creatures within a 10-foot radius. It functions like a resilient sphere spell (Reflex DC 16 negates) with a radius of 10 feet and a duration of 10 minutes. A globe of shimmering force encloses a creature, provided the latter is small enough to fit within the diameter of the sphere. The sphere contains its subject for the spell’s duration. The sphere is not subject to damage of any sort except from a rod of cancellation, a rod of negation, disintegrate, or a targeted dispel magic spell. These effects destroy the sphere without harm to the subject. Nothing can pass through the sphere, inside or out, though the subject can breathe normally. The subject may struggle, but the globe cannot be physically moved either by people outside it or by the struggles of those within. The explosion completely consumes the bead, making this a one-use item. Moderate evocation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, resilient sphere; Price 3,000 gp. As I read this: -The item can be thrown with no range penalties as far as 60 feet--but, since it is NOT a "weapon," it has no range increment, and thus can be thrown not one foot farther. -As it is not a "weapon," no attack roll of any kind need be made; thus, the object always lands exactly where you want it to (subject to the range restriction above)...AND you can't fumble it (whether core or not). -The 5d6 burst occurs no matter what or where you target; but to get the resilient sphere functionality, you must specifically target a creature, considering the spell description says the sphere must be centered on a creature. SRD quote on resilient sphere: Resilient Sphere Evocation [Force] Level: Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: 1-ft.-diameter/level sphere, centered around a creature Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: Reflex negates Spell Resistance: Yes A globe of shimmering force encloses a creature, provided the creature is small enough to fit within the diameter of the sphere. The sphere contains its subject for the spell’s duration. The sphere is not subject to damage of any sort except from a rod of cancellation, a rod of negation, a disintegrate spell, or a targeted dispel magic spell. These effects destroy the sphere without harm to the subject. Nothing can pass through the sphere, inside or out, though the subject can breathe normally. The subject may struggle, but the sphere cannot be physically moved either by people outside it or by the struggles of those within. So the upshot is, I believe the object is much safer (to the user) and infinitely more accurate than you make it out to be; but the downside is that it has a strict range cap of 60'.
meabolex 07-06-06, 12:55 PM	The rule "Dex check DC 10 on a natural 1 is a dropped weapon" is from The Player's Handbook. It is not in the SRD (just as XP /level is not). As I am at work, I can't give you the page number. But that is the core rule for a natural 1. A critical failure with a weapon is a houserule -- as is the dexterity check. Critical failures on saving throws does have additional consequences, but not attack rolls.
tarkin 07-06-06, 02:13 PM	meabolex: You may call it a House Rule, but it is written in the Players Handbook. It might be a variant rule, but that is different from a 'House Rule'. RecycledDM: You are making a lot of things up. I never said you could throw it more than 60ft. I said you could miss, but that does not mean you have to be over. The DM to say "if you are off and you are aiming at 60ft it must be short, not 'over'." Go back and re-read your quotes. No where does it say it is not a weapon. Nor does it say you can't fumble. Nor does it say you can't get more than a single creature. You are making all that up, with zero evidence for the to hit/fumble, and only circumstantial for the one creature (spell description that the item is based on). I at least am looking at wording of the item itself for all my evidence. It just says it can be thrown 60 ft but not one bit further - just like all the magical ranged attacks that require to hits. Scorching Ray, Acid Arrow, Polar Ray, etc. etc. To sum up: 1) It does not say it automatically hits 2) It does not you can't fumble it 3) It uses words that strongly imply that you have to roll a to hit (throw) 4) It uses words that strongly imply that it can fumble ( sharp impact, as opposed to "when it hits the target') If you want to convince me describe what you think happens in these worst case scenarios: Scenario 1) You are 20 ft away from a brick wall with a tiny arrow slit in it. There is a Hurricane class storm going on. Your opponent is 40 ft away on the other side of the wall. Are you going to stand there and tell me you can throw that force bead, during that storm, through the tiny arrow slit, and get your enemey? Scenario 2) You are standing exactly behind a clear, invisible force wall that totally blocks your right side, but your left side is clear (allowing Line of Effect). You don't realize this, and draw and throw the bead with your right hand. Are you going to stand there and tell me the beed whips off to the left, goes around the force wall, and hits the target?
RecycledDM 07-06-06, 03:51 PM	I take an interest in this thread because I gave one of my players a bead of force, and, after rereading the description 10 times, I'm still working out how I'm going to adjudicate it. To that end, bear in mind that I am debating my initial line of thought here to whatever logical (even, perhaps, absurd) conclusion it reaches...I am open to having my mind changed! =================== Go back and re-read your quotes. No where does it say it is not a weapon. Nor does it say you can't fumble. Nor does it say you can't get more than a single creature. You are making all that up, with zero evidence for the to hit/fumble, and only circumstantial for the one creature (spell description that the item is based on). I at least am looking at wording of the item itself for all my evidence. It just says it can be thrown 60 ft but not one bit further - just like all the magical ranged attacks that require to hits. Scorching Ray, Acid Arrow, Polar Ray, etc. etc. Nowhere does the description say that the item is a weapon. Also, I did not say you could not trap more than one creature, only that, like the spell says, it must be centered on one creature. And since, unlike rays, resilient sphere is not a ranged attack requiring an attack roll, why should the bead of force require an attack roll? To sum up: 1) It does not say it automatically hits 2) It does not you can't fumble it 3) It uses words that strongly imply that you have to roll a to hit (throw) 4) It uses words that strongly imply that it can fumble ( sharp impact, as opposed to "when it hits the target') By my interpretation (and we do seem to differ in our interpretations), the bead of force is essentially, for lack of a better description, a "spell in pellet form." Since the spell in question does not require a to-hit roll, then: you cannot "miss," it does automatically "hit" (subject to target spell resistance and saving throw, of course) and you can't "fumble" it. If you want to convince me describe what you think happens in these worst case scenarios: Scenario 1) You are 20 ft away from a brick wall with a tiny arrow slit in it. There is a Hurricane class storm going on. Your opponent is 40 ft away on the other side of the wall. Are you going to stand there and tell me you can throw that force bead, during that storm, through the tiny arrow slit, and get your enemey? You cannot get your enemy in this case, but only because the arrow slit is presumably smaller than 1 sqft (the minimum sized "hole" to get line of effect to cast a spell through). The hurricane is irrelevant. I will backtrack a bit here and say that you must specifically target a creature with the bead of force (as you would have to with the resilient sphere spell), and therefore cannot target an empty space. This also covers my butt when the next question comes, "what happens if I throw the bead at the arrow slit anyway?" Answer: since you did not have line of effect, you were unable to effectively target the creature, so the bead does not function and is wasted. Scenario 2) You are standing exactly behind a clear, invisible force wall that totally blocks your right side, but your left side is clear (allowing Line of Effect). You don't realize this, and draw and throw the bead with your right hand. Are you going to stand there and tell me the beed whips off to the left, goes around the force wall, and hits the target? The bead of force cannot get through a wall of force if you do not have line of effect. If you threw the bead at a force wall, it would not function and would be wasted, just as if you tried to cast resilient sphere through the wall of force. That being said, there is neither handedness nor facing in D&D 3.5; and, as I've expressed, I see the bead as just a spell in "pellet form." So if, as is the case in your example, the wall of force has been set up so that there is a gap of more than 1 sqft allowing line of effect between you and your target, then yes, the bead of force works just fine and affects the target. ================== The thing that perplexes me about this item is the 5d6 burst of force damage. Where does that come from? Not from the resilient sphere spell used to craft it, and no other spell is listed in the crafting!