Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sxoa 02-23-06, 09:54 PM	A character is dead when they have -10 hitpoints or 0 constitution, or are killed outright by a spell (which reduces them instantly to -10 hp). Undead creatures don't meet any of this criteria, with positive hp and no Con at all, (hence the un in UNdead) and so is not dead (right?). Although they do die, ie become dead, at 0 instead of -10, The terminology used though is "Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed." So maybe they don't "die" as such. Under true resurrection it says "This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level." Does time spent as being undead count as being dead?
Tony111 02-23-06, 10:35 PM	Does time spent as being undead count as being dead? Regardless of the technical meanings in the definition of undead, I believe that the intention was that time spend dead or undead counts as being dead. -Tony
Seeker95 02-23-06, 10:40 PM	Does time spent as being undead count as being dead?No. :D . . . . . You didn't think it would be that easy, do you? If you are a DM asking this question, then the answer is: do whatever furthers the story / stage you are trying to set for your players. If you are aplayer asking this question, then the answer is whatever your DM needs to further the story / stage. If you play an undead PC, get killed, and want resurrected... I'd say sorry. It comes with the territory of playing an undead creature. Unless you're trying to come back as the undead, in which case we can treat it the same as if you were not an undead creature. :D
mvincent 02-24-06, 02:09 PM	Does time spent as being undead count as being dead?Yes. Generally, the term undead still means dead (as in the "no longer living" sense). From a D&D cosmology viewpoint, I believe the soul is still considered departed during this time (which seems to be the important consideration for resurrections and such).
sxoa 02-25-06, 10:35 AM	Yes. Generally, the term undead still means dead (as in the "no longer living" sense). From a D&D cosmology viewpoint, I believe the soul is still considered departed during this time (which seems to be the important consideration for resurrections and such). So what about with a lich, with its soul in a nice little box? Or a ghost, which is just the soul? Or wraiths, and the other incorporeals which are also basically just souls?
Seeker95 02-25-06, 11:39 AM	So what about with a lich, with its soul in a nice little box? Or a ghost, which is just the soul? Or wraiths, and the other incorporeals which are also basically just souls?Still not living.
mvincent 02-25-06, 12:24 PM	So what about with a lich, with its soul in a nice little box?I'm no expert how D&D cosmology works in regard to souls and undead, but it seems like the lich's soul has still technically departed from the body. I certainly still view liches as dead (like other undead). Or a ghost, which is just the soul? Or wraiths, and the other incorporeals which are also basically just souls?If they are just souls, then there is no body to resurrect to it's original form. Note that a ghost's original body would still be considered dead during the time it's out haunting.
sxoa 02-25-06, 01:35 PM	Still not living. I'm not saying they are alive. What I AM saying though, is that I'm not sure if being undead is the same as being dead. In D&D its less of dichotomy than in the real world. If they are just souls, then there is no body to resurrect to it's original form. Note that a ghost's original body would still be considered dead during the time it's out haunting. You don't need a body for true resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm) to work and it can resurrect people who have been turned into the undead and then destroyed.
mvincent 02-25-06, 02:01 PM	You don't need a body for true resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm) to work and it can resurrect people who have been turned into the undead and then destroyed.I think you might be getting side-tracked, so let me clarify what I meant earlier about a departed soul: I meant departed from their body.
Seeker95 02-25-06, 04:38 PM	You don't need a body for true resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm) to work and it can resurrect people who have been turned into the undead and then destroyed.True, but true resurrection also has a "been dead" time limit of 10 years per caster level. Since the minimum caster level is 17th, we're talking about bringing back folks that have been dead for up to 170 years. Not too often that you have a vested interest in spending 25,000gp bringing back to life someone who died before you were ever born.
sxoa 02-26-06, 01:44 PM	great hero from ages past who has been stuck as an undead for the past 500 years? Just throwing out an example.
Seeker95 02-26-06, 03:27 PM	great hero from ages past who has been stuck as an undead for the past 500 years?Then you need a 50th level caster to bring him back.
sxoa 02-26-06, 07:41 PM	unless of course being undead doesn't count as being dead
Seeker95 02-27-06, 11:44 AM	unless of course being undead doesn't count as being deadAnd as folks have shared already... it does.
sxoa 02-27-06, 12:06 PM	And as folks have shared already... it does. Three people have certainly expressed that opinion, but since no one has shown where it says this in the RAW, to say that is definitively does count, is something of a leap.
mvincent 02-27-06, 12:41 PM	Three people have certainly expressed that opinion, but since no one has shown where it says this in the RAW, to say that is definitively does count, is something of a leap.Actually, it's not a leap so much as following the standard definition of undead. Dictionary.com defines undead as: "No longer living but supernaturally animated, as a zombie." But here are your RAW examples. From the D&D glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_undeadtype&alpha=U) and the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType): "Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces." The SRD also says: "Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead." I think it's clear that (despite moving) the undead are not alive even according to RAW. During this period, the above mentioned hero has passed on! The hero is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If he hadn't been animated 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-HERO!!
mvincent 02-27-06, 01:10 PM	Then you need a 50th level caster to bring him back.On the off-chance that one really wants to bring back a hero that's been dead for more than a couple hundred years, a wish or a researched epic level spell could (and should) probably be used. It sounds like a plot device created by the DM anyways (as campaigns rarely last that long ; ).
sxoa 02-27-06, 01:17 PM	As I said earlier. I'm not saying they are alive. What I AM saying though, is that I'm not sure if being undead is the same as being dead. In D&D its less of dichotomy than in the real world. I would whole heartedly agree that anyone who is undead is not alive, but I am contending that in a world with magically animated corpses powered by negative energy being UNdead does not mean the thing is dead dead. Its not part of any campaign that I'm involved in, I'm just curious what people think, and in the interest of promoting debate I'm arguing the other side.
Seeker95 02-27-06, 02:50 PM	in the interest of promoting debate I'm arguing the other side.Except you're not arguing the other side. You're objecting to the opinions expressed by those who say time spent as an undead counts as being dead for purposes of the spell. Arguing the other side would involve presenting your view and supporting it with cogent references to the rules, common sense, precedent, etc.
mvincent 02-27-06, 03:03 PM	I would whole heartedly agree that anyone who is undead is not alive, but I am contending that in a world with magically animated corpses powered by negative energy being UNdead does not mean the thing is dead dead.We might just be debating semantics. The term "undead" might be misleading, as it doesn't genuinely mean that something isn't dead. Rather denotes it as a type of dead, similar to terms like "Walking dead", "living dead", "evil dead", etc. I'm almost positive that undead time counts as dead time. I tried to illustrate this from a D&D meta-physics frame of reference, but here are some more game mechanic reference. D&D defines "Dead" as: "The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic." Spells like animate dead utilize the corpse (effectively transforming it into something else), but do not reunite the soul with the body. Also (by RAW) Resurrection can only target dead creatures. If a creature was not considered dead while undead, then they could not be Resurrectioned while undead. Indeed, Resurrection specifically states that "undead creatures can’t be resurrected", but yet "Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.", indicating a difference between the original creature (still dead), and the undead creature (whatever you would like to categorize it as).
sxoa 02-27-06, 06:04 PM	would involve presenting your view and supporting it with cogent references to the rules, common sense, precedent, etc. Which I have done, both in my original post as well as in links to SRD and other points I have made. Would you mind addressing the original point of the thread? If you have nothing more to say than you think they count as dead without any supporting evidence then I have noted your point, thank you for contributing. [...] D&D defines "Dead" as:"The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic." Excellent point about the soul leaving the body, though you left out the rest of that sentence "and journey to an Outer Plane." It could be argued though,that the Outer Plane part of that is cosmology dependent, but the soul leaves the plane unlike in the case of Lich or Ghost. As pointed out in the original post they do not have -10 hp, and they have no constitution score, not a constitution score of zero. Additionally they can benefit from magical healing (albeit through negative energy rather than positive). Spells like animate dead utilize the corpse (effectively transforming it into something else), but do not reunite the soul with the body. I agree that they do not reunite the soul with the body, but with the higher forms of undead (Vampires, Liches, Ghosts etc) the creatures are not animated by a simple animate dead spell only utilizing the corpse. Additionally they retain memories from the time they spent amongts the warm blooded. Also (by RAW) Resurrection can only target dead creatures. If a creature was not considered dead while undead, then they could not be Resurrectioned while undead. Indeed, Resurrection specifically states that "undead creatures can’t be resurrected", but yet "Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.", indicating a difference between the original creature (still dead), and the undead creature (whatever you would like to categorize it as). I agree with your conclusion "If a creature was not considered dead while undead, then they could not be Resurrectioned while undead" but this statement given the spell descriptions shown below would support the point that Undead are seperate from dead. From Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm):You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level.... A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. From True Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm): You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures. The spells specifically target dead creatures. As I pointed out earlier True Resurrection can't raise an undead creature (implying that they aren't dead) but it can raise an undead creature that has been destroyed (i.e. now its dead). So in summary, I agree that undead are not living. What I contend is that under the RAW, while they share a number of characteristics similar to the dead, they are not dead. Supporting: 1. Not at -10 hp, not at 0 contstitution 2. Not suitable as targets for spells that only target dead creatures Against 1. Soul has left body (but not neccesarily for another plane of existence) Unknown 1. Original intent
mvincent 02-27-06, 07:03 PM	Thank you for summarizing your counter-arguments :) True Resurrection can't raise an undead creature (implying that they aren't dead) but it can raise an undead creature that has been destroyed (i.e. now its dead). That appears to be incorrect. As mentioned twice earlier, True Resurrection can indeed be used on undead: "Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead." 1. Not at -10 hp, not at 0 contstitutionThis sentence seems to be describing how a character becomes dead (and so seems inapplicable for our purposes). If the body were later say, animated by an animate object spell, it would also not be at -10 hp nor 0 con, but this should not restart the "being dead counter". 2. Not suitable as targets for spells that only target dead creaturesThat appears to be incorrect. The resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) spell uses the same "Target" line as the Raise dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm) spell: "Target: Dead creature touched" so the resurrection spell only targets dead creatures. However, undead evidently can be targeted by the resurrection spell because it's affect on them is described (above). Therefore, undead count as dead creatures in this instance. Note: this also implies that Raise dead could still target an undead, it just wouldn't have an affect. Targeting and affecting are two different things. Unknown 1. Original intentI agree that the writer's intent is unknown, but many of us have a feeling for such things. Even though opinions are subjective, the weight of popular opinion would matter here (unless/until the actual intent is made clear). If you don't believe us, ask some other people you respect (and are knowledgeable about such things). you left out the rest of that sentence "and journey to an Outer Plane."Where is that stated? That doesn't seem implicit in regard to resurrection or undead.
Tyrasius 02-27-06, 07:28 PM	I think that the spell means ten years, after they first die. Just my opinion.
mvincent 02-27-06, 07:32 PM	Here is some additional information that might help you decide: The Gentle Repose (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm) spell says: "You preserve the remains of a dead creature so that they do not decay. Doing so effectively extends the time limit on raising that creature from the dead." (if other spells did this, it would probably be noted) The Speak with Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakwithDead.htm) spell says "This spell does not let you actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse. The partially animated body retains the imprint of the soul that once inhabited it, and thus it can speak with all the knowledge that the creature had while alive." It seems that undead do not have souls (or at least, not in their body, in the case of a lich), or conversely, don't have bodies (like a ghost, which is something of anomaly in regard to undead anyways), and the permanent separation of body and soul seems to be what makes the someone "dead" in regard to the "resurrection timer". If you can find examples of undead that are still inhabited by a soul, this might aid your case (I'd like to know of any). In any case, determining the writer's intent could probably be better done on this board (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=98).
sxoa 02-27-06, 09:18 PM	That appears to be incorrect. As mentioned twice earlier, True Resurrection can indeed be used on undead: "Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead." I'm not sure where you are getting this text from but the full text (copied and pasted) from the SRD on WotC's website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) is as follows True Resurrection Conjuration (Healing) Level: Clr 9 Casting Time: 10 minutes This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method). Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points) or prepared spells. You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures. Even true resurrection can’t restore to life a creature who has died of old age. Material Component: A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 25,000 gp. Could you indicate where you are getting your reading of this spell from? The reading here quite definitively says it does not work on undead until they have been destroyed. The outer planes quote is from the D&D Glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_dead&alpha=D) on WotC's website. Good call on -10 hp, and 0 constitution, that sentence does indeed indicate what you say it does. I would disagree with your conclusion under gentle repose "if other spells did this, it would probably be noted" as there are many spells that do similar things that do not mention each other, (Damage being the obvious one), as well as a Lich's ritual not being a named spell. Speak with Dead is a good point to bring up, as it might (possibly, is there a ruling on how this relates to undead?) relate to higher solid undead like Vampires, though it still does not adress ghosts and Liches. I'm not sure how it logically follows from the spells description that "the permanent separation of body and soul seems to be what makes the someone "dead" in regard to the 'resurrection timer'. " If you can find examples of undead that are still inhabited by a soul, this might aid your case (I'd like to know of any). Posession? A ghost's malevolance ability or a the MMII burning thingy (its been a while and I don't have the book on hand) that posesses corpses and ignites them (I think) I would say its likely that the writer's intent was that an undead count as dead for purposes of the resurrection spell time limits but I'm trying to argue the RAW as it is much less subjective. So in summariy Supporting: 1. Not suitable as targets for spells that only target dead creatures (according to the WotC SRD) 2. Affected by magical healing (dead bodies aren't) Against 1. Soul has left body, (whether this is what starts the timer is not clear)
mvincent 02-28-06, 04:58 PM	I'm not sure where you are getting this text fromIt is from the description of undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm) in the SRD under - Undead Type: Traits: "Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead." Supporting: 1. Not suitable as targets for spells that only target dead creatures (according to the WotC SRD)As indicated, incorrect. 2. Affected by magical healing Yes, they are harmed by magical healing (and healed by magical harming). This would seem to make them the opposite of life in the same way that being highly caffeinated (rather than merely sober) is the opposite of being drunk. It doesn't seem to indicate that the original creature is no longer dead.
sxoa 02-28-06, 09:40 PM	Yes, they are harmed by magical healing (and healed by magical harming). This would seem to make them the opposite of life in the same way that being highly caffeinated (rather than merely sober) is the opposite of being drunk. It doesn't seem to indicate that the original creature is no longer dead. I am not sure I follow your analogy, but the being harmed is still being affected by magical healing which is more than a dead body can say."Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead." As indicated, incorrect. Well no its not incorrect as under the spell description it states quite clearly that it doesn't affect them. We are however at an impass at this point. As I point out the spell description says one thing where as the description of the creature type that you presented says another. I am of the oppinion that under the creature type it is a simplification of what is described under the spell description (that it can be used to raise an undead who has been destroyed unlike raise dead) but you do not appear to share this belief. Since at this point we come down to two contradictory statements from the RAW, we cannot really take this any further in that domain. So it has been a pleasure debating this with you, and I appreciate folks' input. With that though, I must bid you adieu, good fortune, and high rolls.
KAVU2002 02-28-06, 10:10 PM	Wow! This is more than just a misprint. We have found two statements whose MEANINGS contradict each other. On page 296 of the PH it implies that you need to destroy an undead creature before you use true resurrection. On page 317 of the MM it flately states that true res WILL work on an undead creature that has NOT been destroyed.
mvincent 03-01-06, 12:28 AM	We have found two statements whose MEANINGS contradict each other. On page 296 of the PH it implies that you need to destroy an undead creature before you use true resurrection. On page 317 of the MM it flately states that true res WILL work on an undead creature that has NOT been destroyed.Actually, this line in the resurrection and true resurrection spell descriptions: "You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed" is apparently meant to counter this line in Raise dead spell description (the spell resurrection is based on): "A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell." It doesn't actually seem to prevent the following line from being true: "Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead."
Seeker95 03-01-06, 07:41 AM	We have found two statements whose MEANINGS contradict each other.Not really. The entry on page 317 does not state that you can do so without first destroying them. DMG Page 317 indicates it can be done. PHB Page 296 provides some limiting criteria.