Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sirellyn 02-15-06, 07:44 PM	Could you use shadow conjuration for instance to make a bridge of sound and then choose to fail your will save automatically so you believe it's real and cross it? For that matter could you make shadow conjured wax to stuff in your ears to protect you from a harpy's song? In essence, since you can fail any saving throw you choose to, can you fail the saving throw in order to get a beneficial result?
Ice 02-15-06, 07:56 PM	i thought you had to control your illusions?
Kyuketsukiouji 02-15-06, 07:59 PM	How can you not know something is an illusion when you're the one that made it?
Silverthumb128 02-15-06, 08:05 PM	How can you not know something is an illusion when you're the one that made it? You could forget, I guess? That's what we call a Natural 1 Spellcraft check. :D
Milo HoBo 02-15-06, 08:28 PM	I think you're crossing into the realm of shadow magic (i.e. making illusions real) which isn't normally allowed. It doesn't make logical sense to believe your spell isn't an illusion unless you're in fact that good. It's like stealing your own underpants without you knowing it. Hinding in the shadows from yourself. That kind of thing... It brings up a logical contradiction, or at least a case of Dissassociative Identity Disorder (commonly refered to as Multiple Personality Disorder). That might require taking a flaw or something. Anyways, it would have to be extreme circumstances for me to allow it as a novice DM.
Sirellyn 02-15-06, 09:21 PM	Well it's the whole question of "can you delude yourself?" I mean people can in real life of course, and you don't have to be insane either. Self brainwashing happens all the time, heck kids believe in their own imaginary friends. Anyone know if you can believe your own illusions?
Kyuketsukiouji 02-15-06, 09:33 PM	Well it's the whole question of "can you delude yourself?" I mean people can in real life of course, and you don't have to be insane either. Self brainwashing happens all the time, heck kids believe in their own imaginary friends. Anyone know if you can believe your own illusions? Only if you've lost more than 75% of your total hp banging your head with a rock. What you're arguing about is like someone thinking his own sock puppet is a real person.
Esponer 02-15-06, 09:47 PM	I'd require a DC 30 Autohypnosis check.
Branto 02-15-06, 10:05 PM	Well, I don't know how it works for people who AREN'T paranoid, but I myself could never fully trick myself into thinking something I know is false.. there would always be that little nagging in the back of my skull, which for the purposes of illusions, would be enough to keep from fooling myself.. What you really should be asking is how 'real' the shadow effects have to be before you could do things like using one for a bridge. ;) You see, at a certain strength, you should be able to stand on a mass of the shadow without immediately falling through. The way I imagine it is it would be kind of like quicksand, you would probably start to slowly sink into it, and if you moved against it too quickly you might accidentally push through, but as long as you stepped lightly and kept moving you SHOULD be able to make a shadow bridge.
kraegor 02-15-06, 10:52 PM	Shadow Spells are considered quasi-real. Qausi-real illusions have real effects. They just aren't FULLY real. So if you make a bridge out of shadow magic you can indeed cross it even if you don't believe it, because the structure is made up of "shadowstuff" or whatever you want to call it. Now if its a pure illusion, called "glamours" then it is totally false. If you stepped out onto a bridge you would indeed fall off the ledge and plummet to your death. Its just that in that persons mind, they are being tricked to thinking they are CROSSING the bridge, and won't realize that they are falling until they are dead. See the point? Differences between glamour and quasi-real illusions is a very difinitive line.
mbfu3k 02-15-06, 11:02 PM	The thing is, you don't have to believe that your illusions are totally real, you just have to believe that they're real enough. The caster knows that these illusions are at least partially real, since they contain the essence of Shadow, and he knows that the nature of magic is such that he can choose to let a spell affect him completely or he can choose to resist it. Therefore, being confident in his arcane abilities, he "knows" that he can choose to allow his spell to have its full effect upon him, or he can choose to force his will upon the spell and slip through the effect unhindered (at least 20% or more of the time). Alternatively, you could look at it this way: even if the caster makes his save, he will still be affected by the spell 20% (or more) of the time. Thus, knowing this, he can choose to fail his save and simply believe that he was affected by the spell despite it not necessarily being totally real. Thirdly, you could choose to note that objects conjured by a shadow conjuration spell are 20+% as strong, thus the bridge would be able to support 20+% the weight a totally real bridge would, regardless of whether anyone crossing the bridge made their save or not. If that weight is exceeded, the bridge will break.
Crovaxan 02-15-06, 11:44 PM	I revently finsihed reading Orb of Xoriat, and in there an illusionist gnome used a spell/chant to make himself believe he was a devotee to the silver flame so he could gain access to a room. he said something along the lines of. "It's child's play for me to make me think what i want me to think." or someting like that. I'm guessing that with the rigours training in manipulating minds i.e. creating illusions, he learned how to delude even himself.
Dragonteuthis 02-15-06, 11:54 PM	This topic reminds me of a humorous story involving a greedy halfling theif. He had opened a treasure chest, and the party beheld a gleaming pile of gold coins, thanks to a permenent silent image spell. When the halfling eagerly dug his hands into the mess of coins, the entire party (including him) made their Will saves when the image not only didn't change, but made no "jingling" sound. The pile of gold faded into translucence. The Halfling, horror-struck at this, loss, began clutching at the fading gold, crying out "I BELEIVE the illusion! I BELEIVE the illusion!"
Soel Griffin 02-16-06, 04:30 AM	Someone needs to convert the 2e spell Forget...
sushi bite 02-16-06, 04:43 AM	Wow, if one of my players ever thought of doing this, I would smack them in the face, tear up their character sheets and force them to roll a new one with a WIS of 6.
smrtgmp 02-16-06, 05:38 AM	What you're arguing about is like someone thinking his own sock puppet is a real person.What are you implying? That Mr. Stinky isn't real? He'll have none of that, thank you very much.
WombleHunter 02-16-06, 08:01 AM	The problem is solved by existing rules. If you have incontrovertible proof that an illusion isn't real, then you automatically pass any disbelief saving throw. Having cast the spell yourself certainly counts as incontrovertible proof. The issue becomes a bit murkier if the illusionist in question has the Shackles of Belief ability from UA, though...
Radijs 02-16-06, 08:31 AM	I'd say that if you believe your bridge is real you can believe you're succesfully crossing it while you're actually falling to your crunchy doom om the jagged rocks below. At least Death will come as a surprise.
Arlechino 02-16-06, 09:28 AM	This is really just part of the problem with the "psychosomatic" nature of the shadow spells. According to the text, a creature who believes in the shadow experiences 100% real effects, 100% of the time. One who doesn't gets only a percentage chance of being affected, or receives only a percentage of the damage. I'm willing to- sort of- buy this for negative abilities. But what if a shadow Hound Archon casts Aid on your character? If your character believes it's real, it has 100% effects, but if she doesn't, she's only got a 60% chance to be affected? What about an avoral's lay on hands ability? 80% effective on nonbelievers, 100% effective on believers? It makes my head hurt... -A
Raven Dark 02-16-06, 10:36 AM	The problem is solved by existing rules. If you have incontrovertible proof that an illusion isn't real, then you automatically pass any disbelief saving throw. Having cast the spell yourself certainly counts as incontrovertible proof. The issue becomes a bit murkier if the illusionist in question has the Shackles of Belief ability from UA, though... The rules also state that a person can choose to forego a saving throw altogether and be effected by the effect. I would allow someone to cross the bridge. What's more, I would congratulate them on their creativity instead of tearing up their character sheet. :nonono:
malignor 02-16-06, 11:34 AM	They have undeniable proof that it's an illusion. Thus they can't believe it to be real. I'd allow it like this.... I'd let them be fully affected by the 20%+ real portion. 20%+ of that bridge is real, and the caster who made it can see through the ~80% illusionary sections. Thus the caster can just navigate across the bridge's real parts. To a 3rd party it just looks like he's carefully crossing the bridge. I'd let the shadow-conjured avoral's lay on hands be fully affective on a willing non-believer. They choose to accept the affects so they allow themselves to be healed by the 20%+ real portion, since they can see through the illusionary portion and thus discern which part to accept real healing from. To one who is ignorant of the illusionary aspects (and fails their will save), they also get 100% healed, just as they get 100% of the damage from a shadow-conjured acid arrow. ============ Another way to houserule it is that the caster (and those who are aware of shadow conjuration either by spellcraft or by explanation who knows) is aware that the affect of the shadow conjuration/evocation is directly related to belief. They also know that the shadow-thing is at least partially real, so even if they disbelieve, they get some real affect anyway. So disbelievers would have the option of making a will save to accept 100% of the conjuration/evocation... the DC being something like the fake portion of the spell's DC... so 80% of the DC for shadow conjuration/evocation, or 40% of the DC for greater shadow conjuration. So if the DC for shadow conjuration is 18, it's a Will save (0.8 x 18 = ) DC 14 to overcome disbelief and accept the full affect if you want. The same caster using greater conjuration would have a DC of (0.4 x 21 = ) DC 8 to overcome disbelief and accept the full affects, because greater conjuration is more real, and easier to believe.
Shadowfax7 02-16-06, 12:47 PM	I would rule that the caster of a Shadow Conjuration (Greater version or Shades) bridge would automatically disbelieve the spell, but still have a 20%+ (dependant on the version cast) chance to be able to cross it as if it was real due to the effects of shadow magic. Anyone that knows he cast it, would get a saving throw @ +4 to disbelieve and if they disbelieve, then the same 20%+ chance as the caster to cross the bridge. If they don't disbelieve, then they can cross the bridge since the caster can always tell them he made a "real" bridge. From the 3.5 SRD under the description of Shadow Conjuration: Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they are 20% likely to work.
CaoSlayer 02-16-06, 12:55 PM	Someone needs to convert the 2e spell Forget... PHB -> Modify memory, bard only spell
Arlechino 02-16-06, 03:33 PM	Anyone that knows he cast it, would get a saving throw @ +4 to disbelieve and if they disbelieve, then the same 20%+ chance as the caster to cross the bridge. If they don't disbelieve, then they can cross the bridge since the caster can always tell them he made a "real" bridge. "Cross the bridge! The trolls are coming!" "But that's a shadow conjuration bridge! " "No it isn't" "Yes it is. And since I know it is, I might fall through" "Hurry up!" "Mindfog me first. Then I'll go."
gradea 02-16-06, 06:08 PM	If i encounter an illusionary wall that seems real, and i think its real, and i try to take cover behind it to dodge dragons breath, it wont cover me. Think about that statement. Second, shadow spells are quasi real, so if their real enough for the effect then yes (IE 2/5). Also, illusionary sound is still sound, if it stops you from being able to hear something, you dont hear it.
Soel Griffin 02-16-06, 06:14 PM	PHB -> Modify memory, bard only spell How'd I miss that? Gonna have a look. If it doesn't suit me, then convert I will! (and not for the purposes of this thread, I always liked the spell!)
Arlechino 02-16-06, 06:50 PM	If i encounter an illusionary wall that seems real, and i think its real, and i try to take cover behind it to dodge dragons breath, it wont cover me. Think about that statement. But, according to the RAW, if the wall you're hiding behind is a shadow conjuration, then your belief actually impacts the wall's effectiveness. An illusionist could use Shades to create a phase door. Other people he designates could go through 100% of the time if they fail their save. If the illusionist automatically knows the illusion is just an illusion, other people will have an easier time using his phase door than he will!
Branto 02-16-06, 07:35 PM	Wow, if one of my players ever thought of doing this, I would smack them in the face, tear up their character sheets and force them to roll a new one with a WIS of 6. Aaah, let me guess.. all of your dungeons involve a single large, square room with 100 monsters, and the only spells and combat maneuvers that exist in your house rules are ones that do direct damage? ;) Come on, guys.. like someone said, those objects are still 20% real even if you know they're shadow! (and don't the stronger versions of the spell create more real objects?) Oh, and another peek at the PHB reveals some light on our shadowy situation: Shadow objects or substances, such as obscuring mist, have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they are 20% likely to work. So, basically, if you know that bridge is fake and walk onto it, you consult the dice.. if it comes up in that 20%, then the bridge behaves EXACTLY like a normal bridge for all purposes.. but if you get that other 80%, well.. you fall right through. ;) Needless to say, unless you're desperate I'd use Greater Shadow Conjuration to make sure your chances are good. Against a creature that recognizes it as a shadow creature ... ... and all special abilities that do not deal lethal damage are only 20% likely to work. So if you summon a shadow creature that can cast something like bless on you, you again consult the dice. On a success (or failure, depending on how you look at it) you would be affected as if a real cleric Blessed you.. on a failure, nothing happens. Personally though, I would go with an alternate version to the 'either works or doesn't.. where it either functions completely as normal, but only has a fraction of the structural integrity.. or would be less physical, as in with some effort (or weight, if the object is under you) you could actually pass another physical object THROUGH it, and affects like a cloud of gas or fire breath would be filterred out by a certain percent (as in, if you made a shadow wall to try and block a dragon's fire breath, you would get to shave off 1/5 of the damage.. though, if the dragon thinks it's a real wall, would it stop all of the damage?)