Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Knute 05-02-07, 03:53 PM	Does anyone know a magic item that allows 'Alter Self' for an extended duration. Something like a belt of Troglodyte form? When I last checked Alter Self is a 2nd level spell with a minimum caster level of 3. Try 2*3*2000*1.5 for time = 18,000 gp Alter Self X Min Caster Level 3 x 2000gp Constant Item x 1.5 for time. A reptile skin belt of fine workmanship. Vaguely smelly when closely examined it is nevertheless very strong and detects of transmutation magic. Moderate Transmution; CL 3rd?; Craft Wondrous Item, Alter Self: Price 18000 gp (Note that Trog is only one of the possible Alter Self Uses - this only allows one form and is trying not to abuse the spell.) Knute Anyone know a similar item for comparison?
CaoSlayer 05-02-07, 04:23 PM	If the efect is continium then you must use the rules for pricing the benefits, you cant get a +5 to natural armor for free.
tarkin 05-02-07, 05:20 PM	When I last checked Alter Self is a 2nd level spell with a minimum caster level of 3. Try 2*3*2000*1.5 for time = 18,000 gp, not 3000.
Knute 05-02-07, 05:56 PM	Thanks Tarkin, I thought something didn't add up. Appreciate the catch. I'll modify it in the original post. S Do people think the updated price is fair? There are detractors - The Dashing hero may not enjoy being a troglodyte. - This item doesn't allow all the benefits of Alter Self as it only has one form. - Being mistaken for an ugly lizard thing is not quite the resplendent advantage of gilded armor. Any similar Items to gauge price to?
Pandaemoni 05-02-07, 06:27 PM	It is roughly similar to the much less expensive Cloak of the Manta Ray. It is based on a lower level spell, but is, all around, far more mechanically advantageous (unless your characters happen to spend a lot of time underwater). As for the drawbacks, it seems to me that anyone who hates being perceived as a troglodyte will buy a Hat of Disguise for 1800 gold and make themselves look human or demi-human. Presumably they'd still have troglodyte voice of course.
Thiez 05-02-07, 06:30 PM	+5 armor bonus = 50k. Going lower than that isn't really acceptable. Spells with a range of Personal are usually bad spells to put in a magical item.
SpoonyBard 05-02-07, 06:37 PM	Who needs a Hat of Disguise? It's a BELT. Take it off around town.
Knute 05-02-07, 09:37 PM	CaoSlayer - I'm not disagreeing with you but could you tell me where you got this If the efect is continium then you must use the rules for pricing the benefits, you cant get a +5 to natural armor for free. I'm not changing what I'd get from the 2nd level spell so my first instinct is to say that its fair to the rules.
Thiez 05-03-07, 07:39 AM	What you are creating is an item that gives +5 natural armor, and it needs to be priced as such. Those are the rules. I hate myself for saying this, but the pricing rules are just guidelines, and you need to compare with existing items...
Dheran 05-03-07, 09:03 AM	Is 18,000 gp for a Belt of Troglodyte Form fair? Not even close. This item would give +6 natural armor. (And you could still stack a +5 natural armor bonus on top of that.) It also provides racial skill bonuses: Hide +5, Listen +3. And it grants the racial bonus feat Multiattack. From the "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" table: AC bonus (other) (since this isn't an armor enhancement): 6^2 * 2,500 gp = 90,000 gp Skill bonus (Hide): 5^2 * 100 gp = 2,500 gp Skill bonus (Listen): 3^2 * 100 gp = 900 gp Feat: 10,000 gp (from A&EG) Multiply the items after the first by 1.5 for multiple properties in an item; the total cost is 110,100 gp. A Troglodyte form for a character is worth a +2 level adjustment. This belt would make you a much more capable character. The price should reflect that.
CaoSlayer 05-03-07, 09:17 AM	CaoSlayer - I'm not disagreeing with you but could you tell me where you got this I'm not changing what I'd get from the 2nd level spell so my first instinct is to say that its fair to the rules. There is an article in wizards site about magic items, it brings the famous permanent true strike item. --- As a funny note is posible to make a much more powerful ring of alterself using the ring of invisibility as a guideline. That is infinite uses per day in place of continium that is almost the same.
forsaken1111 05-03-07, 10:34 AM	By the absolute letter of the rules for magic item creation, yes it is fair. Would it be unbalanced in the hands of a PC? Yes, unquestionably. Personally if I were to add this item to my game I would either make it cursed (Once on, its on for a minimum of 1 week) or make it a relic so that the major power of transformation can only be used by someone who worships a certain evil diety but I'd give it some minor power for anyone else who puts it on, such as natural armor +1.
robitusinz 05-03-07, 10:53 AM	Is 18,000 gp for a Belt of Troglodyte Form fair? Not even close. This item would give +6 natural armor. (And you could still stack a +5 natural armor bonus on top of that.) It also provides racial skill bonuses: Hide +5, Listen +3. And it grants the racial bonus feat Multiattack. From the "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" table: AC bonus (other) (since this isn't an armor enhancement): 6^2 * 2,500 gp = 90,000 gp Skill bonus (Hide): 5^2 * 100 gp = 2,500 gp Skill bonus (Listen): 3^2 * 100 gp = 900 gp Feat: 10,000 gp (from A&EG) Multiply the items after the first by 1.5 for multiple properties in an item; the total cost is 110,100 gp. A Troglodyte form for a character is worth a +2 level adjustment. This belt would make you a much more capable character. The price should reflect that. This is correct. When a spell adds actual bonuses, you gotta calculate the bonuses seperately. This item would not read "This is an item of permanent alter self that turns the wearer into a Troglodyte." It would read, "This item transforms the wearer into a troglodyte, granting +5 Natural armor bonus, +3 racial bonus to Hide, +3 racial bonus to Listen, and the Multi-attack feat. Prerequisite: alter self spell". Basically, one you start throwing the bonuses in there, you're playing on a different field. However, if the intention is to LOOK like a troglodyte without changing any mechanical aspects (that is, no NA bonus, no skill bonuses, no feat, etc), then you could go with something cheap.
Thiez 05-03-07, 10:58 AM	... like a hat of diguise :)
Khatoblepas 05-03-07, 12:41 PM	Hang on, is it giving those bonuses for turning into a specific shape? What about an item that DOES give you continuous (unlimited) Alter Self? Would that be cheaper or more expensive than an item that gives you a particular form? Or more expensive, because it's more useful? Something that thematically would work would be, like, a Belt of the Doppleganger. Gives you the ability to change shape (Alter Self) ala the Doppleganger. I wouldn't mind one of those.
Shadowmind64 05-03-07, 12:47 PM	Just make a belt of Extended Alter self 5/day, you shouldnt need it more than that and it allows you to get all the bonuses you want. Continuous effects get messy, so just make an item that casts a # of times per day.
Archtyrant Terevoth 05-03-07, 01:28 PM	Well first, alter self itself is a crazy broken spell for the very reason that you're getting a +6 stackable AC bonus. This is an epic effect. Of course, you can hide epic effects with polymorphing effects because somehow the +6 bonus isn't as big anymore when you're hiding it in the polymorph mechanics, and is therefore balanced because you're changing form and not buffing yourself. Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me either. You're best off pretending that anything that uses the polymorph mechanics from alter self to shapechange, simply doesn't exist. Why not just use the PHB2 polymorph rules? Then you could easily make a balanced belt of troglodyte form. Or you could use alter self as a base and totally break your game.
Dheran 05-03-07, 05:22 PM	It would read, "This item transforms the wearer into a troglodyte, granting +5 Natural armor bonus, +3 racial bonus to Hide, +3 racial bonus to Listen, and the Multi-attack feat. Prerequisite: alter self spell". I really wish people would stop misstating this. It isn't a "+5 natural armor bonus", on two counts: It's +6, not +5. It's natural armor, not a natural armor bonus. Because it's +6 it obviously is worth more than +5. Because it grants natural armor, a natural armor bonus can still be added. With this belt and an Amulet of Natural Armor +5 you'd have +11 to your AC from natural armor. So this AC benefit is much more valuable than what can be obtained from non-Epic magic items.
Knute 05-04-07, 12:52 AM	Thanks for all the feedback. I have to say I'm not drooling over the thing (not really :) ). I am trying to find what would be the decent way to go about it. So far I think I have to examine the new rules for polymorphing. I appreciate all your replies and your consideration.
robitusinz 05-04-07, 11:26 AM	I really wish people would stop misstating this. It isn't a "+5 natural armor bonus", on two counts: It's +6, not +5. Oops. Glad we have such excellent proofreaders here. It's natural armor, not a natural armor bonus. Because it's +6 it obviously is worth more than +5. Because it grants natural armor, a natural armor bonus can still be added. With this belt and an Amulet of Natural Armor +5 you'd have +11 to your AC from natural armor. So this AC benefit is much more valuable than what can be obtained from non-Epic magic items. It's a shame you lose at D&D, though. "natural armor bonus" is the correct terminology. Just as "armor bonus" is correct terminology. An Amulet of Natural Armor grants an "enhancement bonus to natural armor". It does not grant a "natural armor bonus". Amulet of Natural Armor This amulet, usually crafted from bone or beast scales, toughens the wearer’s body and flesh, giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor bonus of from +1 to +5, depending on the kind of amulet. Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, barkskin, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus; Price 2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2), 18,000 gp (+3), 32,000 gp (+4), or 50,000 gp (+5). If you wish that people would stop "misstating" this by your account, well, maybe you should change your account. Thanks for playing, though.
NobodyRemembersThis 05-04-07, 11:51 AM	Wrong. Trog for grants an inherent Natural Armor Modifier +6 - This is not a bonus. The ability from the amulet of natural armor is a bonus, however.
robitusinz 05-04-07, 12:00 PM	Wrong. Trog for grants an inherent Natural Armor Modifier +6 - This is not a bonus. The ability from the amulet of natural armor is a bonus, however. LOL, seriously? Did you not read the part where I quoted the description for Amulet of Natural Armor? Hold on, maybe this'll help: Natural Armor Bonus A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks. Hold on, let's try this too: Barkskin Transmutation Level: Drd 2, Rgr 2, Plant 2 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Living creature touched Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) Barkskin toughens a creature’s skin. The effect grants a +2 enhancement bonus to the creature’s existing natural armor bonus. This enhancement bonus increases by 1 for every three caster levels above 3rd, to a maximum of +5 at caster level 12th. The enhancement bonus provided by barkskin stacks with the target’s natural armor bonus, but not with other enhancement bonuses to natural armor. A creature without natural armor has an effective natural armor bonus of +0.
Thiez 05-04-07, 01:21 PM	Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. What are we trying to prove here? Let's quote the above thing again and highlight some other random words!
forsaken1111 05-04-07, 01:33 PM	I think the point that's being made is that transforming into a creature with natural armor isn't the same as getting a natural armor bonus, because natural armor doesn't always stack. If your race/type gives you natural armor, you can still enhance it with an amulet of natural armor. Example would be a dire bear wearing an amulet(collar) of natural armor.. this would work fine.
robitusinz 05-04-07, 03:03 PM	I think the point that's being made is that transforming into a creature with natural armor isn't the same as getting a natural armor bonus, because natural armor doesn't always stack. If your race/type gives you natural armor, you can still enhance it with an amulet of natural armor. Example would be a dire bear wearing an amulet(collar) of natural armor.. this would work fine. Nah, Dheran just wanted to nitpick semantics, and I went ahead and shut that down. A natural armor bonus is just that, natural armor bonus. Natural armor bonuses do not stack. Monsters all have natural armor bonuses, and there are no spells that give you a natural armor bonuses. You get a natural armor bonus from having natural armor (see, no "bonus" this time), just like you get an armor bonus from wearing armor. Barkskin spell and Amulet of Natural Armor provide an ENHANCEMENT bonus to your natural armor BONUS, as the spell and item description state. At the end of the day, these are just ENHANCEMENT bonuses. Turning into a Troglodyte would give you a natural armor bonus. It does not give an enhancement bonus to natural armor bonus. As far as I know, there's no way of getting 2 natural armor bonuses...natural armor bonus only comes from having natural armor. HOWEVER...it would not be far-fetched to create Bracers of Natural Armor which provided a natural armor bonus, just like Bracers of Armor provide an armor bonus. So then you could wear your Bracers of Natural Armor +1, plus an Amulet of Natural Armor +1 and get +2 to your AC (+1 from the natural armor bonus of the bracers, and +1 from the enhancement bonus to natural armor from the amulet).
Nephlite 05-04-07, 05:26 PM	Does anyone know a magic item that allows 'Alter Self' for an extended duration. Something like a belt of Troglodyte form? Alter Self X Min Caster Level 3 x 2000gp Constant Item x 1.5 for time. A reptile skin belt of fine workmanship. Vaguely smelly when closely examined it is nevertheless very strong and detects of transmutation magic. Moderate Transmution; CL 3rd?; Craft Wondrous Item, Alter Self: Price 18000 gp (Note that Trog is only one of the possible Alter Self Uses - this only allows one form and is trying not to abuse the spell.) Knute Anyone know a similar item for comparison? More Drawbacks: you lose racial modifiers such as racial bonus feats (which I think human bonus feat from race counts).
Phalo 05-05-07, 01:13 AM	Does anyone know a magic item that allows 'Alter Self' for an extended duration. Something like a belt of Troglodyte form? Alter Self X Min Caster Level 3 x 2000gp Constant Item x 1.5 for time. A reptile skin belt of fine workmanship. Vaguely smelly when closely examined it is nevertheless very strong and detects of transmutation magic. Moderate Transmution; CL 3rd?; Craft Wondrous Item, Alter Self: Price 18000 gp (Note that Trog is only one of the possible Alter Self Uses - this only allows one form and is trying not to abuse the spell.) Knute Anyone know a similar item for comparison? I have been thinking on this and have come to this end 1. It is a valid item (albeit a item that is somewhat unbalancing) 2. it cost you came up with while is in line with the rules is abit low for power of item. (i came up with 24,000 (spell level 2 * caster level 6 * 2,000) which brings it closer to an actual value. I did the caster level as 6 because it is a higher level of the spell you need) also you probably make it from a trogs hide 3. you would get multi attack but would not get Weapon Focus (javelin) (seems multi would be a racial feat and the weapon focus is learned from their 2 racial hit die) 4. you would get +4 racial bonus on Hide checks. *In rocky or underground settings, this bonus improves to +8. 5.your natural armor would change to +6 in trog form but you would not wear armor. (seems trogs don't wear armor, guess it comes from having scales.) 6. you woud use your own ability scores so you would add dex 7. The items should probably be a cloak or a robe (which in my opinion would negate the possibility of you wearing armor anyhow. 8. You do not get stench 9. spell casting would get a negative (most likely you are playing a race with five finger trogs only have four somatic spells would be rough. at least for you in transition)
Knute 05-05-07, 02:48 AM	Phalo I really like your take on this. I like your price range. I had originally set it at a 5th caster level but 24,000 is a nice round number. A couple of things I question. 1. Belts are supposed to be appropriate for transformation magic. There are all sorts of folk tales about belts of fur turning people into wolves etc. 2. I don't see why you wouldn't get stench, except perhaps because you don't wan it :) 3. The spellcasting penalty I'm not sure of but I think a transitional Arcane Spell Failure might be interesting. Good Idea. Not being able to wear further armor would be a big drawback and I think would knock the price down from 24,000. It might be reasonable though as the wearer might very well be a spellcaster and not proficient anyway. I have to think about this for a while. k
Phalo 05-05-07, 04:27 AM	you would not get stench because it is a special ability and i was saying robe/cloak cause they tend traditionally (previous editions) been about big transformations.(i remember a cloak of the swammy or something like that) Only belt i can think of that did any changing is old editions was the belt of sex change. as far as armor goes the change itself is like armor with all the ability to upgrade from there.(magearmor, barkskin, sheild of faith ect)
EvilVegan 05-05-07, 03:17 PM	Wand. 4,500 gp. UMD. Duct tape it to a belt if you like, but what you're designing is crazy overpowered.
Phalo 05-05-07, 04:36 PM	Wand. 4,500 gp. UMD. Duct tape it to a belt if you like, but what you're designing is crazy overpowered. I am not disputing it is overpowered but it is within the rules
Thiez 05-05-07, 07:56 PM	I am not disputing it is overpowered but it is within the rules Custom Item Creation assumes a sane DM. The rules don't say 'You can make any item you can think of'. Instead, they say you can, with the DM's permission, create items that are not listed in a book. After that they post some GUIDELINES about what your item should cost. No, you're not getting an item of continous mage armor for 2000 gp. No, you're not getting an item of alter self for 2000 gp.
EvilVegan 05-06-07, 08:52 AM	I am not disputing it is overpowered but it is within the rulesHm. Yes it is, if you use the rules above that make this item cost about 110,000 gp. Just making an item based off of a spell is not an accurate depiction of the magic item creation guidelines. The item you priced (using spell level 2 X Caster level 6 etc) is using the same rules as making a continuous item of true strike for 2000 gp. Yes, by the guidelines you can make such an item, but the guidelines also have rules for granting specific bonuses (such as natural armor, etc).
Phalo 05-07-07, 11:54 AM	Hm. Yes it is, if you use the rules above that make this item cost about 110,000 gp. Just making an item based off of a spell is not an accurate depiction of the magic item creation guidelines. The item you priced (using spell level 2 X Caster level 6 etc) is using the same rules as making a continuous item of true strike for 2000 gp. Yes, by the guidelines you can make such an item, but the guidelines also have rules for granting specific bonuses (such as natural armor, etc). You could not make a a true stirke anything due to the spell being instantaneous The belt fall under the same auspicious as what would an alter form + permanency cost