Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlackTiger 04-12-07, 11:37 PM	So, this came up in my game, and pretty much everyone at my table had a different interpretation. Basically, a PC put a caster into a Resilient Sphere, and he in turn used Benign Transposition to change places with one of his allies, a large-sized animal (A Horrid tiger, to be exact). Now, there are two or three things in play here: Benign Transposition's effect theoretically doesn't work if a target cannot occupy the space, and Resilient Sphere can only work on creatures it can contain. In this case, Caster Level 9, or a 9' diameter. The animal can in fact occupy that space, squeezing. a PC however argued (in the NPCs favor) that the animal would be too large to occupy the sphere naturally and would, hence, burst. Not that it could literally burst the force walls, but that the way the Resilient Sphere spell works, it can onyl contain creautes it is large enough to surround (and the fact is, the animals 'space' is 10' by 10') Someone else pointed out that if it couldn't safely occupy the space, benign transposition wouldn't work... So, I figured this was -Definitely- one to look on the boards. I'd like to know what other people think, and I'd be interested if anyone has seen any official source address this.
Deep Blue 9000 04-13-07, 02:15 AM	I think the tiger would be stuck in the sphere. If the tiger squeezes, it can fit. If it doesn't squeeze, it can't. However, resilient sphere has no conditions on how the creature fits. It doesn't say the creature must squeeze. It doesn't say the creature can't squeeze. It only asks if it can fit. The answer is yes, the creature can fit. So the spell works and the tiger is squeezed in the 9' sphere.
infideli 04-13-07, 10:10 AM	I think the tiger would be stuck in the sphere. If the tiger squeezes, it can fit. A stick 24 feet long and 1 inch square might fit in the volume of two square feet, but it's shape won't fit into a 20 foot diameter sphere holding 3,000 square feet. A second level spell is not going to "squeeze" a tiger. If the tiger was curled up in a ball to begin with, that's a different story. G
Moribund 04-13-07, 11:06 AM	I think the point is moot as benign transposition would require line of effect from the caster to the target (in this case the tiger). Resilient Sphere blocks line of effect.
tarkin 04-13-07, 11:36 AM	That point is blatantly wrong. Benign Transposition is a [Teleport] spell. [Teleport] spells never need line of effect. --------------- But the Benign Transposition does not work because the Tiger has to fit BEFORE he teleports. While the Tiger could fit if he were squeezing, as he is not yet squeezing, he can not fit. Now if the Tiger were to first curl himself into a tight little ball, then the spell would work.
Shatteredtower 04-13-07, 12:55 PM	A 5 ft wide corridor weaves back and forth around four 1 ft thick walls. On a battle map, the corridor spaces would be displayed as adjacent squares. Is a size Medium in any of these corridors treated as squeezing? Does an ogre -- or horrid tiger -- fully fill a 10 ft square all the time? No in both cases. The square is an abstraction. It does not have to be 10 ft across in all dimensions to count as a 10 ft square space, and the creature does not have to be able to touch all four corners of a 10 ft square simultaneously to have to be able to occupy it. Said creature counts as squeezing for the purpose of fighting and moving, but that's a moot point once it's in the resilient sphere. Can it be placed within this space by benign transposition? That depends on how meaningful the definition of line of effect truly is. We know this much: teleport would get you into the resilient sphere. You are creating an effect (conjuring a creature) in a space to which you didn't have line of effect. Now you could argue that this only works because you have line of effect to the destination when you appear there, since it is still line of effect relative to you. Fair enough. Now explain how you get a helmet into a resilient sphere (or a locked room) with teleport object, or why instant summons (another targetted spell) could bring it to you from such locations. Conjuration [teleport] spells would seem to ignore line of effect rules, requiring only the option to reach the astral plane. I'd say let this one pass as well, since your targets pass from your line of sight and effect for that instant of astral travel anyway.
tafkamhokie 04-13-07, 01:01 PM	My argument would be that a willing creature most certainly can squeeze into a resilient sphere. But an unwilling creature is not going to squeeze, therefore they do not fit.
jaelis 04-13-07, 01:20 PM	I'd say that if the DM thinks the tiger would be a valid target for resiliant sphere to begin with, then the teleport should work. Otherwise not. The spell description makes no distinction between a willing or unwilling target about who can fit. I think it would be reasonable to rule either way. It's probably true that the tiger does not exceed 9 ft in length in any direction, so in that sense the tiger fits. But the tiger's space is 10 ft, which doesn't fit. The spell just says "provided the creature is small enough to fit within the diameter of the sphere." It's not obvious to me whether this is meant to refer to the actual size of the creature or the creature's space. I'd probably rule using the space for simplicity. Note that if a creature actually were squeezing at the time, it would be taking up less At risk of being off-topic, I have another question. Could you trap more than one creature in a resiliant sphere of sufficient size? Like, two halflings standing next to each other?
Moribund 04-13-07, 01:39 PM	That point is blatantly wrong. Benign Transposition is a [Teleport] spell. [Teleport] spells never need line of effect. Well if that isn't a baseless and overarching claim. Correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing in the description of benign transposition or the teleportation subschool would indicate that it is immune to the general rule of line of effect.
Aracor 04-13-07, 02:19 PM	Well if that isn't a baseless and overarching claim. Correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing in the description of benign transposition or the teleport subschool would indicate that it is immune to the general rule of line of effect.Sure there is. The range. If you needed line of effect, it's effective OPTIMAL limit would be 14 miles. More than that, the curvature of the planet would prevent line of effect. Since Teleport is a spell with a range that's listed unlimited, that would be pretty pointless if it still needed line of effect.
tarkin 04-13-07, 03:10 PM	Well if that isn't a baseless and overarching claim. Correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing in the description of benign transposition or the teleport subschool would indicate that it is immune to the general rule of line of effect. :rofl: So you want to stand there and say I can not teleport out of a room when the door is closed? :rolleyes: You DO realize that walls, doors, ceilings, floors all block Line of Effect. All [Teleport] spells use the Astral plane which means it's line of effect includes the Astral plane. If you don't block the Astral Plane, then you don't block Teleport. It does not matter whether I am teleporting out, or I am causing you to teleport to me, or combining BOTH things in one spell. LOE is irrelevant for all [Teleport] spells, as long as access to the Astral plane is allowed for all targets.
Moribund 04-13-07, 03:12 PM	I said nothing about individual spells not being able to break the rules of line of effect. Plenty of spells other than teleport do that, scrying for one. I was referencing the specific subschool of Conjuration, Conjuration (teleportation). Of which teleport is just one spell. One cannot extend a specific exception to a rule as one pleases as it makes the entire application of that rule arbitrary. I am in error and will however, correct my previous post to say teleportation subschool rather than teleport subschool.
tarkin 04-13-07, 03:24 PM	You still don't understand. There is nothing in the Teleport spell itself that says it ignores LOE. We know that it can teleport out of a locked room for one reason ONLY - it is a (teleportation) spell and the subschool says that teleport ALWAYS through the Astral Plane. Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation. For this reason, any spell that says [Teleportation] uses the Astral Plane to establish it's LOE. Technically this means it does not so really 'ignore' LOE, instead the LOE is throught the Astral Plane. But the effect is the same as saying "LOE does not apply to any Teleportation spell." Benign Transpoisition can go through a Resilient Sphere, just like any other Teleport can... because it uses the Astral plane and the Resilient Sphere does not block Astral Movement
lint trap 04-13-07, 03:34 PM	These great cats stand more than 3 feet tall at the shoulder and are about 9 feet long. I'd say this description is good enough reason to let the tiger fit into the sphere.
Moribund 04-13-07, 03:52 PM	The subschool description does imply that the destination is reached via the astral plane which can be interpreted to mean such spells require no line of effect to said destination, sure I'll give you that. But you are arguing that you don't need line of effect to target a creature with a spell, that's an entirely different kettle of fish. There is nothing to imply that such targeting happens through the astral plane. For teleport LOE for targeting really isn't a problem, it's a personal or touch spell. But take the maze spell for example. It's a Conjuration (teleportation) spell. Do you need line of effect to the destination? Of course not, it's an extradimensional space, there is not LOE. Do you need line of effect to the target? YES! That's one of the basic tenets of spellcasting, you need LOE to your target. You can't teleport someone who is behind a wall any more than you can summon a creature so it appears behind a wall.
Vegepygmy 04-13-07, 05:12 PM	[Teleport] spells never need line of effect.I think you are wrong, and I think you're making the extremely common mistake of believing that a teleporting creature needs LOE to his destination. He does not. You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect (such as conjuring a monster).Teleport is a targeted spell. Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures You must have LOE to the target(s); not their destination. For this reason, benign transposition will not work on a target inside a resilient sphere. You need LOE to both targets, and the sphere blocks it for one of them. EDIT: :whatsthis: Note to self: always finish reading the thread before jumping in. Moribund explained the same thing in a different way in the post above this one. Oh, well. Put me down for a "ditto," then. :embarrass
jaelis 04-13-07, 05:14 PM	I'd want to see the spell description for benign transposition. Is the target of the spell you, or the character you switch places with?
Vegepygmy 04-13-07, 05:21 PM	Targets: Two willing creatures of up to Large size
lint trap 04-13-07, 05:23 PM	I'd want to see the spell description for benign transposition. Is the target of the spell you, or the character you switch places with? The target is "two willing creatures of up to Large size."
jaelis 04-13-07, 05:41 PM	Then I'd say you need line of effect to both of them. As a teleportation spell, the two targets don't need line of effect to each other, but it would seem that the caster needs line of effect to each. So the sphere would indeed block it.
Shatteredtower 04-13-07, 05:49 PM	You must have LOE to the target(s); not their destination. Both instant summons and sending are targetted spells. Conjuration [summoning] spells bring an effect to you from beyond range or line of effect. Conjuration [teleport] spells such as teleport object and plane shift let you relocate objects or creatures, an effect that finishes beyond line of effect. Destination is not an effect, but the target remains the target. Since the spell takes you into the astral plane and back out again, you are not losing line of effect to the target at any point within that instant; otherwise, you'd just be left in the astral plane.
Moribund 04-13-07, 05:58 PM	Both instant summons and sending are targetted spells. Both instant summons and sending have text in their descriptions saying or implying they don't require line of effect to the target, same goes for scrying and clairvoyance. Benign Transposition has no such caveat. no attack Vegepygmy with faulty logic!!! Moribund smash with pendantic responses and infantile jabs at use of brackets (which are obviously used for descriptors) for subschool rather than parenthesis
Vegepygmy 04-13-07, 07:06 PM	Both instant summons and sending are targetted spells.Instant summons is cast on an object in your possession at the time of the casting (when you need and presumably have LOE to it); thereafter you summon it by crushing the gem. You do not need LOE at the time you crush the gem because the spell has already been cast. Sending is more problematic. The descriptive text implies, but does not explicitly state, an exception to the LOE rules. The same is true for scrying and a handful of other spells. Conjuration [summoning] spells bring an effect to you from beyond range or line of effect.No, for purposes of LOE they create an effect in a square to which you must have LOE. It's right there in the LOE rules: You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect (such as conjuring a monster). Conjuration [teleport] spells such as teleport object and plane shift let you relocate objects or creatures, an effect that finishes beyond line of effect.Teleport object and plane shift are not effect spells; they are targeted spells. Thus, as far as LOE is concerned, all you need is LOE to the target(s). Now, if you want to discuss effect spells, consider teleportation circle. That is a Conjuration (Teleportation) effect spell. And per the LOE rules, all you need at the time of casting is LOE to the square in which you wish to create the "5-ft-radius circle that teleports those who activate it." Again, the circle's destination is irrelevant; you don't need LOE to it because you are not creating the spell's effect (a "5-ft-radius circle that teleports those who activate it") there.
Gnarl 04-14-07, 04:05 AM	I think Vegepygmy is right. You don’t need line of effect to the square you want to teleport to but you do need line of effect to the target(s) of your teleportation spell.
Vegepygmy 05-07-07, 05:53 PM	:bump:
Derren S. 05-09-07, 02:36 AM	I think Vegepygmy is right. You don’t need line of effect to the square you want to teleport to but you do need line of effect to the target(s) of your teleportation spell. Seconded