Best 1st level Warlock invocation? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best 1st level Warlock invocation? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
WayneTheGame
11-09-05, 10:46 PM (I assume this type of question should go here since Warlocks are a wizard-y offshoot, even though invocations aren't really spells.. *ahem*)

I'm working on a warlock character and I'm having a devil of a time picking my Invocation. FYI I'm going to be using this character in World's Largest Dungeon. I see a lot of recommendations for Baleful Utterance but I don't really know why since all it does is break things... I'm liking Devil's Sight because I can see in darkness inc. magical darkness, but a few of the others ones seem interesting too.. I'm in over my head, I think.. any help on which would be a good one to take? :confused:
green_yawgmoth
11-09-05, 11:13 PM Devil's sight is pretty nice, and eldritch spear is pretty sweet to keep your rather frail ass out of charge -> attack range.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Nephlite
11-09-05, 11:50 PM (I assume this type of question should go here since Warlocks are a wizard-y offshoot, even though invocations aren't really spells.. *ahem*)

I'm working on a warlock character and I'm having a devil of a time picking my Invocation. FYI I'm going to be using this character in World's Largest Dungeon. I see a lot of recommendations for Baleful Utterance but I don't really know why since all it does is break things... I'm liking Devil's Sight because I can see in darkness inc. magical darkness, but a few of the others ones seem interesting too.. I'm in over my head, I think.. any help on which would be a good one to take? :confused:

According to the faq on the Eldritch blast you can target worn weapons and objects so you can bateful utterance the enemies sword or club (or armor) if you aren't going to sell it or keep it. You can break locks on chests, doors, etc.

Entropic Warding: helps a lot against ranged attacks ands last 24 hours.
Worguron
11-10-05, 12:57 AM I would suggest See the Unseen over Devil's Sight unless you are planning on running into a lot of magical darkness.

Baleful Utterance is also extremely useful, so either of them would work rather well as a first Invocation in my opinion.
Sarlax
11-10-05, 01:46 AM I recently played a changeling rogue/warlock. I went with Beguiling Influence, Leaps and Bounds, then Baleful Utterance. The first made him an extremely effective diplomat and manipulator (I never failed any social check). The second allowed him to pull off cool acrobatic stunts and improved his maneuverability (Tumbling past enemies, etc.).

And Shatter at will? It's amazing. Vaporize shields, armor, doors, ropes... At higher levels, you can disintegrate rather large structures. You also get the chance of dazing and deafening the creature. That's a 20% chance to miscast spells with a verbal component (read "Almost all") for a minute.
smrtgmp
11-10-05, 01:46 AM I once had a few levels of warlock in a social character (for beguiling influence). Baleful utterance was my 2nd invocation, and I got a lot of use out of it. Its great for sundering weapons you dont care about (such an an ogre's club), blowing the lock off a door, removing manacles, etc. In one combat, all I really did was continue to blow up this ogre's possessions so that he would be dazed for a round at a time. It kept him out of the fight long enough for my companions to take out the rest of the opposition and then team up on him while he stood there unable to act.

Edit: @ Sarlax. My character was a changeling rogue/warlock as well. From there he went into hexblade, chameleon and cabinet trickster. Well, he would have had he gottent that far.
Oliver D'Argent
11-10-05, 07:03 AM I recently started playing a Warlock and in our first fight the main opponent might have escaped if I had not taken Eldritch Spear.
Quirriff
11-10-05, 08:09 AM Take Devils sight, looks like you want it, so take it, Then Get Darkness as your 2nd invokation.
Puca
11-10-05, 10:40 AM Id pass on Devils Sight and See the Unseen for now.

Theyre great, definately have them later, but at level 1, just how many invisible creatures do you face? How often is the darkness magical? Later, whey you are throwing around your own darkness, sure, thats good. But not level one. Youve only got the one invocation; dont waste it on something you could duplicate with a 1 cp torch.

Eldritch Spear is good. Range is good.

Baleful Utterance is awesome. None of those falchion-wielding orcs are going to make their saves. And the stuff youre blowing up is likely not that valuable at this level.

But I like Entropic Ward. 20% miss chance, nice. No sneak attacks against you from range, nice. Works on rays, nice. Survive to second-level with this, then start blowing stuff up.
WayneTheGame
11-10-05, 11:52 AM Hmm.. thanks for the tips. I'm debating between Baleful Utterance and Eldritch Spear... leaning more towards Spear since I can just see the rest of the party getting mad because they were too close to me and all their glass things (potion vials, etc.) went kaboom. The Entropic one is nice, but I doubt I'll need pass w/out trace and not being tracked by scent in a dungeon.
green_yawgmoth
11-10-05, 03:20 PM I'd go with the spear. If you're that worried about your opponents having things, get the party tank to learn improved disarm. (:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Izzak
11-10-05, 03:49 PM I'd go with spear. I think basicly once you see a bad dude you can blast him. Second i'd go with sick blast. Blasted and sick from afar and probaly charging its gonna hurt. Also check with the monster feats about 'improvedspell like abillity' i think it helps the DC by 2 or somthing
Puca
11-10-05, 04:26 PM I doubt I'll need pass w/out trace and not being tracked by scent in a dungeon.Probably not, but 20% miss-chance is still nice.
leaning more towards Spear since I can just see the rest of the party getting mad because they were too close to me and all their glass things (potion vials, etc.) went kaboom.If you use it as an attack targeted against a single object it does not also do the 5’ radius spread that could destroy your buddies vials.

I dont want to dissuade you from taking Eldritch Spear. It is good, unless you are in buildings or caverns a lot where 60’ is farther than the biggest of rooms.

Also check with the monster feats about 'improvedspell like abillity' i think it helps the DC by 2 or somthingI think it is Spell-Like Ability Focus and it is a good choice, since applying to your E.B. adds that +2 to all DCs associated with your E.B., whatever Blast Essence invocation you may have.
Inkling
11-10-05, 04:40 PM Baleful Utterance was my favorite because according to the rules unattended normal objects always fail their saves so you can blast open doors, locks, chains, chests, etc at will. It's almost as good as having Knock at will (just louder). Plus you can sunder weapons with it and since it's a Will save, most fighter types will fail the save.

I wouldn't take Devil's Sight at such a low level (if at all) because it only gives you darkvision and the ability to ignore the 20% miss chance from Darkness (Darkness doesn't blind you anymore, so it really isn't a serious threat...it really should be called "Shadowness"). You probably won't see Darkness all that much at low level and even if you do, other invocations will give you more use. You might want to take See the Unseen (at a higher level) instead of Devil's Sight so you get the darkvision plus the ability to see invisible at will. What I would do is buy a scroll of Permanency and See Invisibilty and use your UMD and Deceive Item ability to cast it on yourself...that way you don't have to waste an invocation slot on that ability. You might open yourself up to dispel and disjunction, but I think you would get a lot more use out of other invocations.

Frightening Blast is great for dispersing enemy troops...a couple shots and the whole gang routes. Combined with Eldritch Spear and you can win battles single handedly...

Also someone said that Hideous Blow used with a garrote was fun as hell. You need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency in garrote though.

But these are just suggestions, Warlock is a heavily "flavorful" class, so you should go with what you think is cool to play.
WayneTheGame
11-10-05, 07:54 PM hmm.. I think I'll take Baleful Utterance since we are playing World's Largest Dungeon so the entire campaign will be underground; 60' should be plenty range. I think I'll look into that Frightful Blast as my 2nd level invocation, however... Thanks again, everyone! :D
allenchan
11-10-05, 09:24 PM Actually, since you're playing in WLD, I'll recommend Spider Climb, since i've played through WLD up until level 12
Seeker of Undeath
11-10-05, 09:31 PM Because it's underground I'd recommend Spiderwalk as a second invocation to consider. The mobility is just ill. Ever need to toss a rope across a ravine? No need when you can tie one end to yourself and go. Need a way to reach that odd switch or get around a floor-based trap? You're good to go. Need a funny direction to flank from? We've got it! Want to sneak around in a place almost no one looks? Peek-a-boo!

The others are good too, however. Good luck with the dungeon.
Alchahest
11-10-05, 09:36 PM I am currently playing a bit of a weird warlock. not really powergamed at all... for one, he's a warlock with improved unarmed strike.. he's also got combat expertise, and improved feint.

improved feint with beguiling influence really helps those bluff checks you take at the beginning of each round before punching people with e. blast...

it's fun, but definitely different. also remember that baleful utterance can be a fun rp device, whenever you're frustrated, instead of swearing, you could randomly destroy something nearby with one heck of a bad word.
smrtgmp
11-10-05, 10:44 PM But I like Entropic Ward. 20% miss chance, nice. No sneak attacks against you from range, nice. Works on rays, nice. Survive to second-level with this, then start blowing stuff up.Entropic Warding provides a miss chance, not concealment. As such, I dont think it would stop sneak attacks.
Illithid13
11-11-05, 09:17 AM either entropic warding or baleful utterance.
Puca
11-11-05, 09:58 AM Entropic Warding provides a miss chance, not concealment. As such, I dont think it would stop sneak attacks.Ah! Youre right; "similar to the effects of concealment" is not concealment.

Dumb thread-hyjacking question: If I have 20% miss change from this effect, and actual concealment for say darkness (another 20%,) how do you adjudicate that? I know they dont stack for a 40% miss chance, but rather would overlap, but do you make an attacker roll first to see if he beats one miss chance, and then (if he did) roll a second time to see if he beats the second?

Edit: Spiderclimb - thats the one you want.
ReadError
11-11-05, 10:39 AM Dumb thread-hyjacking question: If I have 20% miss change from this effect, and actual concealment for say darkness (another 20%,) how do you adjudicate that? I know they dont stack for a 40% miss chance, but rather would overlap, but do you make an attacker roll first to see if he beats one miss chance, and then (if he did) roll a second time to see if he beats the second?

I'd say you have to beat 20% miss chance twice.
Sephiroth Do'Urden
11-11-05, 11:15 AM I would probably go with Spider Climb since you are in dungeon. It's mighty fun to blast orcs while hanging in the roof. Earthen Grasp is a "killer" against smaller enimies, archer and mages and you can use it to slow down enimies chasing you.

By the way, dossen't Devil's sight let you see through darkness like it was daylight and in 30 ft in magical darkness?
CaoSlayer
11-11-05, 11:23 AM I'd say you have to beat 20% miss chance twice.

Also you can do the calculations of 1- 4/5*4/5= 25/25-16/25= 9/25 = 36% fail chances and roll once.
Puca
11-11-05, 11:28 AM I'd say you have to beat 20% miss chance twice.
Also you can do the calculations of 1- 4/5*4/5= 25/25-16/25= 9/25 = 36% fail chances and roll once.
Thanks. Weve been doing it that way with overlapping miss-chances for different effects, but Ive never been able to find a RAW answer or FAQ addressing it.

Sorry for the off-topic stuff.
Dracspero
11-11-05, 01:01 PM I suspect it's not popular, but what about Hideous Blow? Combined with a longspear you can stand behind your tank and hit those creatures that would normally have cover against your ranged attack (plus you can set your spear for charge and channel the HB on it). (Also, reach weapon combined with Combat Reflexes = multiple AoO even if flatfooted).
Puca
11-11-05, 01:32 PM I suspect it's not popular, but what about Hideous Blow? Combined with a longspear you can stand behind your tank and hit those creatures that would normally have cover against your ranged attack (plus you can set your spear for charge and channel the HB on it). (Also, reach weapon combined with Combat Reflexes = multiple AoO even if flatfooted).If Hideous Blow worked like Baker said on that thread on the Classes board, Id say it was good, but since the ruling came down that it provokes an AoO, you really have to use a longspear or other reach weapon to avoid that. And, if you are that far away, why use a spear against the full AC of your opponent, when likely the touch AC is going to be far easier to hit?
If youre human, you can already have Point-Blank and Precice Shot, so the -4 for melee can be no big deal either.
Sephiroth Do'Urden
11-11-05, 04:54 PM There are some really nice Invocations in the Warlocks Circle's libary. Check it out: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=343531&page=1
burntgerbil
11-11-05, 06:01 PM It was mentioned in a post about blasting while hanging upside down on a ceiling, my playgroup ruled that the description of spiderclimb required you to have all four on the wall/ceiling at one time. Were we wrong there ?
smrtgmp
11-11-05, 07:04 PM Ah! Youre right; "similar to the effects of concealment" is not concealment.

Dumb thread-hyjacking question: If I have 20% miss change from this effect, and actual concealment for say darkness (another 20%,) how do you adjudicate that? I know they dont stack for a 40% miss chance, but rather would overlap, but do you make an attacker roll first to see if he beats one miss chance, and then (if he did) roll a second time to see if he beats the second?
I agree with the other posters who already commented on this. I would have you roll twice.
LadyCreator
11-11-05, 07:54 PM Nothing says concealment doesnt stack. There is a 20% chance that the opponent will miss from the fog or whatever, and another 20% miss chance from Entropic shield. You could roll them seperately, but that takes forever, just call it 40% concealment.
smrtgmp
11-11-05, 08:18 PM Nothing says concealment doesnt stack. There is a 20% chance that the opponent will miss from the fog or whatever, and another 20% miss chance from Entropic shield. You could roll them seperately, but that takes forever, just call it 40% concealment.First of all, concealment from multiple sourses doesnt stack. If you were under the effects of blur while in a fog cloud, you would only get a 20% miss chance. Entropic Shield stacks because its not actually concealment.

2nd, thats not how you would add up percentages. See CaoSlayer's post above for details.
Nephlite
11-11-05, 08:21 PM Nothing says concealment doesnt stack. There is a 20% chance that the opponent will miss from the fog or whatever, and another 20% miss chance from Entropic shield. You could roll them seperately, but that takes forever, just call it 40% concealment.
Nope: it was shown on page 1 that the calculations for stacking them (since they don't actually stacK) effectively is 36 % not 40 %.

So either 2 @0% or one 36%.
I perfer 2 20%'s.
Dracspero
11-11-05, 08:36 PM If Hideous Blow worked like Baker said on that thread on the Classes board, Id say it was good, but since the ruling came down that it provokes an AoO, you really have to use a longspear or other reach weapon to avoid that. And, if you are that far away, why use a spear against the full AC of your opponent, when likely the touch AC is going to be far easier to hit?
If youre human, you can already have Point-Blank and Precice Shot, so the -4 for melee can be no big deal either.

Agreed, but you'd need Improved Precise Shot to negate the cover they'd get from having someone between you and them (as per the errata, soft cover is not counted against melee attacks), not to mention the chance of a ranged attack hitting the wrong target if two people are grappled.

I'm not saying HB is a good invocation for every (or even many) builds, but if you go for a high str (say half-orc) build, then you can end up doing some significant damage with that 2-handed reach weapon (at 1st level with an 18 str you'd do 1d8+1d6+6 damage with that spear).
Alchahest
11-12-05, 04:25 AM It was mentioned in a post about blasting while hanging upside down on a ceiling, my playgroup ruled that the description of spiderclimb required you to have all four on the wall/ceiling at one time. Were we wrong there ?

it doesn't say anywhere that your EB has to come from your hands. you can shoot it from your eyes or tongue, or even your rear end if you want to.

another HB question; how do criticals work with it? will it multiply it's damage? afaik, it's not bonus damage to an attack, it's another attack piggybacking on the to-hit. if the blast can critical on it's own, is there any reason that it won't multiply on a successfull critical hit HB?
allenchan
11-12-05, 04:31 AM it doesn't say anywhere that your EB has to come from your hands. you can shoot it from your eyes or tongue, or even your rear end if you want to.

Except it requires a somatic component, thus it requires your hands to create it. However; if you had to have all for limbs on the cieling at all times, then it'd be nearly impossible to move, since you normally move by lifting your hand and moving it to another spot, right? :P
WayneTheGame
11-12-05, 09:07 AM There are some really nice Invocations in the Warlocks Circle's libary. Check it out: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=343531&page=1

These are all homebrew Invocations, right? Which means its a no-no in my group. I'll still check them out, though. Thanks :)
Puca
11-12-05, 09:38 PM Agreed, but you'd need Improved Precise Shot to negate the cover they'd get from having someone between you and them (as per the errata, soft cover is not counted against melee attacks), not to mention the chance of a ranged attack hitting the wrong target if two people are grappled.

I'm not saying HB is a good invocation for every (or even many) builds, but if you go for a high str (say half-orc) build, then you can end up doing some significant damage with that 2-handed reach weapon (at 1st level with an 18 str you'd do 1d8+1d6+6 damage with that spear).Since EB is a standard action anyway, moving to get a shot isnt going to be that bad unless there is a maul or you are in a narrow space.

RAW, there is no chance to accidentally hit someone other than your intended target.

And yes, for a melee build, especially one that is multiclassing or PrCing into something with a better BAB or other increased to-hit, this could be a great choice; although, I need to say that is what I believe, but not something I have seen in practice.
allenchan
11-12-05, 09:46 PM RAW, there is no chance to accidentally hit someone other than your intended target.

I think he's referring to PHB page 151, bottom of table 8-6. However, text trumps tables by dnd RAW, and I dont believe there's anything in the text specificly stating this.
Dracspero
11-12-05, 11:16 PM But does a lack of text trump tables? If the text doesn't address something in a table does that mean what the table says is wrong?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WayneTheGame 11-09-05, 10:46 PM	(I assume this type of question should go here since Warlocks are a wizard-y offshoot, even though invocations aren't really spells.. ahem) I'm working on a warlock character and I'm having a devil of a time picking my Invocation. FYI I'm going to be using this character in World's Largest Dungeon. I see a lot of recommendations for Baleful Utterance but I don't really know why since all it does is break things... I'm liking Devil's Sight because I can see in darkness inc. magical darkness, but a few of the others ones seem interesting too.. I'm in over my head, I think.. any help on which would be a good one to take? :confused:
green_yawgmoth 11-09-05, 11:13 PM	Devil's sight is pretty nice, and eldritch spear is pretty sweet to keep your rather frail ass out of charge -> attack range. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Nephlite 11-09-05, 11:50 PM	(I assume this type of question should go here since Warlocks are a wizard-y offshoot, even though invocations aren't really spells.. ahem) I'm working on a warlock character and I'm having a devil of a time picking my Invocation. FYI I'm going to be using this character in World's Largest Dungeon. I see a lot of recommendations for Baleful Utterance but I don't really know why since all it does is break things... I'm liking Devil's Sight because I can see in darkness inc. magical darkness, but a few of the others ones seem interesting too.. I'm in over my head, I think.. any help on which would be a good one to take? :confused: According to the faq on the Eldritch blast you can target worn weapons and objects so you can bateful utterance the enemies sword or club (or armor) if you aren't going to sell it or keep it. You can break locks on chests, doors, etc. Entropic Warding: helps a lot against ranged attacks ands last 24 hours.
Worguron 11-10-05, 12:57 AM	I would suggest See the Unseen over Devil's Sight unless you are planning on running into a lot of magical darkness. Baleful Utterance is also extremely useful, so either of them would work rather well as a first Invocation in my opinion.
Sarlax 11-10-05, 01:46 AM	I recently played a changeling rogue/warlock. I went with Beguiling Influence, Leaps and Bounds, then Baleful Utterance. The first made him an extremely effective diplomat and manipulator (I never failed any social check). The second allowed him to pull off cool acrobatic stunts and improved his maneuverability (Tumbling past enemies, etc.). And Shatter at will? It's amazing. Vaporize shields, armor, doors, ropes... At higher levels, you can disintegrate rather large structures. You also get the chance of dazing and deafening the creature. That's a 20% chance to miscast spells with a verbal component (read "Almost all") for a minute.
smrtgmp 11-10-05, 01:46 AM	I once had a few levels of warlock in a social character (for beguiling influence). Baleful utterance was my 2nd invocation, and I got a lot of use out of it. Its great for sundering weapons you dont care about (such an an ogre's club), blowing the lock off a door, removing manacles, etc. In one combat, all I really did was continue to blow up this ogre's possessions so that he would be dazed for a round at a time. It kept him out of the fight long enough for my companions to take out the rest of the opposition and then team up on him while he stood there unable to act. Edit: @ Sarlax. My character was a changeling rogue/warlock as well. From there he went into hexblade, chameleon and cabinet trickster. Well, he would have had he gottent that far.
Oliver D'Argent 11-10-05, 07:03 AM	I recently started playing a Warlock and in our first fight the main opponent might have escaped if I had not taken Eldritch Spear.
Quirriff 11-10-05, 08:09 AM	Take Devils sight, looks like you want it, so take it, Then Get Darkness as your 2nd invokation.
Puca 11-10-05, 10:40 AM	Id pass on Devils Sight and See the Unseen for now. Theyre great, definately have them later, but at level 1, just how many invisible creatures do you face? How often is the darkness magical? Later, whey you are throwing around your own darkness, sure, thats good. But not level one. Youve only got the one invocation; dont waste it on something you could duplicate with a 1 cp torch. Eldritch Spear is good. Range is good. Baleful Utterance is awesome. None of those falchion-wielding orcs are going to make their saves. And the stuff youre blowing up is likely not that valuable at this level. But I like Entropic Ward. 20% miss chance, nice. No sneak attacks against you from range, nice. Works on rays, nice. Survive to second-level with this, then start blowing stuff up.
WayneTheGame 11-10-05, 11:52 AM	Hmm.. thanks for the tips. I'm debating between Baleful Utterance and Eldritch Spear... leaning more towards Spear since I can just see the rest of the party getting mad because they were too close to me and all their glass things (potion vials, etc.) went kaboom. The Entropic one is nice, but I doubt I'll need pass w/out trace and not being tracked by scent in a dungeon.
green_yawgmoth 11-10-05, 03:20 PM	I'd go with the spear. If you're that worried about your opponents having things, get the party tank to learn improved disarm. (: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Izzak 11-10-05, 03:49 PM	I'd go with spear. I think basicly once you see a bad dude you can blast him. Second i'd go with sick blast. Blasted and sick from afar and probaly charging its gonna hurt. Also check with the monster feats about 'improvedspell like abillity' i think it helps the DC by 2 or somthing
Puca 11-10-05, 04:26 PM	I doubt I'll need pass w/out trace and not being tracked by scent in a dungeon.Probably not, but 20% miss-chance is still nice. leaning more towards Spear since I can just see the rest of the party getting mad because they were too close to me and all their glass things (potion vials, etc.) went kaboom.If you use it as an attack targeted against a single object it does not also do the 5’ radius spread that could destroy your buddies vials. I dont want to dissuade you from taking Eldritch Spear. It is good, unless you are in buildings or caverns a lot where 60’ is farther than the biggest of rooms. Also check with the monster feats about 'improvedspell like abillity' i think it helps the DC by 2 or somthingI think it is Spell-Like Ability Focus and it is a good choice, since applying to your E.B. adds that +2 to all DCs associated with your E.B., whatever Blast Essence invocation you may have.
Inkling 11-10-05, 04:40 PM	Baleful Utterance was my favorite because according to the rules unattended normal objects always fail their saves so you can blast open doors, locks, chains, chests, etc at will. It's almost as good as having Knock at will (just louder). Plus you can sunder weapons with it and since it's a Will save, most fighter types will fail the save. I wouldn't take Devil's Sight at such a low level (if at all) because it only gives you darkvision and the ability to ignore the 20% miss chance from Darkness (Darkness doesn't blind you anymore, so it really isn't a serious threat...it really should be called "Shadowness"). You probably won't see Darkness all that much at low level and even if you do, other invocations will give you more use. You might want to take See the Unseen (at a higher level) instead of Devil's Sight so you get the darkvision plus the ability to see invisible at will. What I would do is buy a scroll of Permanency and See Invisibilty and use your UMD and Deceive Item ability to cast it on yourself...that way you don't have to waste an invocation slot on that ability. You might open yourself up to dispel and disjunction, but I think you would get a lot more use out of other invocations. Frightening Blast is great for dispersing enemy troops...a couple shots and the whole gang routes. Combined with Eldritch Spear and you can win battles single handedly... Also someone said that Hideous Blow used with a garrote was fun as hell. You need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency in garrote though. But these are just suggestions, Warlock is a heavily "flavorful" class, so you should go with what you think is cool to play.
WayneTheGame 11-10-05, 07:54 PM	hmm.. I think I'll take Baleful Utterance since we are playing World's Largest Dungeon so the entire campaign will be underground; 60' should be plenty range. I think I'll look into that Frightful Blast as my 2nd level invocation, however... Thanks again, everyone! :D
allenchan 11-10-05, 09:24 PM	Actually, since you're playing in WLD, I'll recommend Spider Climb, since i've played through WLD up until level 12
Seeker of Undeath 11-10-05, 09:31 PM	Because it's underground I'd recommend Spiderwalk as a second invocation to consider. The mobility is just ill. Ever need to toss a rope across a ravine? No need when you can tie one end to yourself and go. Need a way to reach that odd switch or get around a floor-based trap? You're good to go. Need a funny direction to flank from? We've got it! Want to sneak around in a place almost no one looks? Peek-a-boo! The others are good too, however. Good luck with the dungeon.
Alchahest 11-10-05, 09:36 PM	I am currently playing a bit of a weird warlock. not really powergamed at all... for one, he's a warlock with improved unarmed strike.. he's also got combat expertise, and improved feint. improved feint with beguiling influence really helps those bluff checks you take at the beginning of each round before punching people with e. blast... it's fun, but definitely different. also remember that baleful utterance can be a fun rp device, whenever you're frustrated, instead of swearing, you could randomly destroy something nearby with one heck of a bad word.
smrtgmp 11-10-05, 10:44 PM	But I like Entropic Ward. 20% miss chance, nice. No sneak attacks against you from range, nice. Works on rays, nice. Survive to second-level with this, then start blowing stuff up.Entropic Warding provides a miss chance, not concealment. As such, I dont think it would stop sneak attacks.
Illithid13 11-11-05, 09:17 AM	either entropic warding or baleful utterance.
Puca 11-11-05, 09:58 AM	Entropic Warding provides a miss chance, not concealment. As such, I dont think it would stop sneak attacks.Ah! Youre right; "similar to the effects of concealment" is not concealment. Dumb thread-hyjacking question: If I have 20% miss change from this effect, and actual concealment for say darkness (another 20%,) how do you adjudicate that? I know they dont stack for a 40% miss chance, but rather would overlap, but do you make an attacker roll first to see if he beats one miss chance, and then (if he did) roll a second time to see if he beats the second? Edit: Spiderclimb - thats the one you want.
ReadError 11-11-05, 10:39 AM	Dumb thread-hyjacking question: If I have 20% miss change from this effect, and actual concealment for say darkness (another 20%,) how do you adjudicate that? I know they dont stack for a 40% miss chance, but rather would overlap, but do you make an attacker roll first to see if he beats one miss chance, and then (if he did) roll a second time to see if he beats the second? I'd say you have to beat 20% miss chance twice.
Sephiroth Do'Urden 11-11-05, 11:15 AM	I would probably go with Spider Climb since you are in dungeon. It's mighty fun to blast orcs while hanging in the roof. Earthen Grasp is a "killer" against smaller enimies, archer and mages and you can use it to slow down enimies chasing you. By the way, dossen't Devil's sight let you see through darkness like it was daylight and in 30 ft in magical darkness?
CaoSlayer 11-11-05, 11:23 AM	I'd say you have to beat 20% miss chance twice. Also you can do the calculations of 1- 4/5*4/5= 25/25-16/25= 9/25 = 36% fail chances and roll once.
Puca 11-11-05, 11:28 AM	I'd say you have to beat 20% miss chance twice. Also you can do the calculations of 1- 4/5*4/5= 25/25-16/25= 9/25 = 36% fail chances and roll once. Thanks. Weve been doing it that way with overlapping miss-chances for different effects, but Ive never been able to find a RAW answer or FAQ addressing it. Sorry for the off-topic stuff.
Dracspero 11-11-05, 01:01 PM	I suspect it's not popular, but what about Hideous Blow? Combined with a longspear you can stand behind your tank and hit those creatures that would normally have cover against your ranged attack (plus you can set your spear for charge and channel the HB on it). (Also, reach weapon combined with Combat Reflexes = multiple AoO even if flatfooted).
Puca 11-11-05, 01:32 PM	I suspect it's not popular, but what about Hideous Blow? Combined with a longspear you can stand behind your tank and hit those creatures that would normally have cover against your ranged attack (plus you can set your spear for charge and channel the HB on it). (Also, reach weapon combined with Combat Reflexes = multiple AoO even if flatfooted).If Hideous Blow worked like Baker said on that thread on the Classes board, Id say it was good, but since the ruling came down that it provokes an AoO, you really have to use a longspear or other reach weapon to avoid that. And, if you are that far away, why use a spear against the full AC of your opponent, when likely the touch AC is going to be far easier to hit? If youre human, you can already have Point-Blank and Precice Shot, so the -4 for melee can be no big deal either.
Sephiroth Do'Urden 11-11-05, 04:54 PM	There are some really nice Invocations in the Warlocks Circle's libary. Check it out: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=343531&page=1
burntgerbil 11-11-05, 06:01 PM	It was mentioned in a post about blasting while hanging upside down on a ceiling, my playgroup ruled that the description of spiderclimb required you to have all four on the wall/ceiling at one time. Were we wrong there ?
smrtgmp 11-11-05, 07:04 PM	Ah! Youre right; "similar to the effects of concealment" is not concealment. Dumb thread-hyjacking question: If I have 20% miss change from this effect, and actual concealment for say darkness (another 20%,) how do you adjudicate that? I know they dont stack for a 40% miss chance, but rather would overlap, but do you make an attacker roll first to see if he beats one miss chance, and then (if he did) roll a second time to see if he beats the second? I agree with the other posters who already commented on this. I would have you roll twice.
LadyCreator 11-11-05, 07:54 PM	Nothing says concealment doesnt stack. There is a 20% chance that the opponent will miss from the fog or whatever, and another 20% miss chance from Entropic shield. You could roll them seperately, but that takes forever, just call it 40% concealment.
smrtgmp 11-11-05, 08:18 PM	Nothing says concealment doesnt stack. There is a 20% chance that the opponent will miss from the fog or whatever, and another 20% miss chance from Entropic shield. You could roll them seperately, but that takes forever, just call it 40% concealment.First of all, concealment from multiple sourses doesnt stack. If you were under the effects of blur while in a fog cloud, you would only get a 20% miss chance. Entropic Shield stacks because its not actually concealment. 2nd, thats not how you would add up percentages. See CaoSlayer's post above for details.
Nephlite 11-11-05, 08:21 PM	Nothing says concealment doesnt stack. There is a 20% chance that the opponent will miss from the fog or whatever, and another 20% miss chance from Entropic shield. You could roll them seperately, but that takes forever, just call it 40% concealment. Nope: it was shown on page 1 that the calculations for stacking them (since they don't actually stacK) effectively is 36 % not 40 %. So either 2 @0% or one 36%. I perfer 2 20%'s.
Dracspero 11-11-05, 08:36 PM	If Hideous Blow worked like Baker said on that thread on the Classes board, Id say it was good, but since the ruling came down that it provokes an AoO, you really have to use a longspear or other reach weapon to avoid that. And, if you are that far away, why use a spear against the full AC of your opponent, when likely the touch AC is going to be far easier to hit? If youre human, you can already have Point-Blank and Precice Shot, so the -4 for melee can be no big deal either. Agreed, but you'd need Improved Precise Shot to negate the cover they'd get from having someone between you and them (as per the errata, soft cover is not counted against melee attacks), not to mention the chance of a ranged attack hitting the wrong target if two people are grappled. I'm not saying HB is a good invocation for every (or even many) builds, but if you go for a high str (say half-orc) build, then you can end up doing some significant damage with that 2-handed reach weapon (at 1st level with an 18 str you'd do 1d8+1d6+6 damage with that spear).
Alchahest 11-12-05, 04:25 AM	It was mentioned in a post about blasting while hanging upside down on a ceiling, my playgroup ruled that the description of spiderclimb required you to have all four on the wall/ceiling at one time. Were we wrong there ? it doesn't say anywhere that your EB has to come from your hands. you can shoot it from your eyes or tongue, or even your rear end if you want to. another HB question; how do criticals work with it? will it multiply it's damage? afaik, it's not bonus damage to an attack, it's another attack piggybacking on the to-hit. if the blast can critical on it's own, is there any reason that it won't multiply on a successfull critical hit HB?
allenchan 11-12-05, 04:31 AM	it doesn't say anywhere that your EB has to come from your hands. you can shoot it from your eyes or tongue, or even your rear end if you want to. Except it requires a somatic component, thus it requires your hands to create it. However; if you had to have all for limbs on the cieling at all times, then it'd be nearly impossible to move, since you normally move by lifting your hand and moving it to another spot, right? :P
WayneTheGame 11-12-05, 09:07 AM	There are some really nice Invocations in the Warlocks Circle's libary. Check it out: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=343531&page=1 These are all homebrew Invocations, right? Which means its a no-no in my group. I'll still check them out, though. Thanks :)
Puca 11-12-05, 09:38 PM	Agreed, but you'd need Improved Precise Shot to negate the cover they'd get from having someone between you and them (as per the errata, soft cover is not counted against melee attacks), not to mention the chance of a ranged attack hitting the wrong target if two people are grappled. I'm not saying HB is a good invocation for every (or even many) builds, but if you go for a high str (say half-orc) build, then you can end up doing some significant damage with that 2-handed reach weapon (at 1st level with an 18 str you'd do 1d8+1d6+6 damage with that spear).Since EB is a standard action anyway, moving to get a shot isnt going to be that bad unless there is a maul or you are in a narrow space. RAW, there is no chance to accidentally hit someone other than your intended target. And yes, for a melee build, especially one that is multiclassing or PrCing into something with a better BAB or other increased to-hit, this could be a great choice; although, I need to say that is what I believe, but not something I have seen in practice.
allenchan 11-12-05, 09:46 PM	RAW, there is no chance to accidentally hit someone other than your intended target. I think he's referring to PHB page 151, bottom of table 8-6. However, text trumps tables by dnd RAW, and I dont believe there's anything in the text specificly stating this.
Dracspero 11-12-05, 11:16 PM	But does a lack of text trump tables? If the text doesn't address something in a table does that mean what the table says is wrong?