Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ariarig 05-30-05, 10:19 PM	Hi everyone... It is my first message on the Wizards community board, so please apologize if my question seems redundant with already existing threads... I just wonder what would be the more useful 4th level spell for a sorcerer, according to you. When you reach 8th level, you have only one spell to choose, so you'd better take time to think about it... In my opinion, it has to be useful in both combat and non-combat situations, to take full advantage of your single spell known. It excludes, then, pure offensive spells like Ice Storm or Phantasmal Killer, more appropriate as 2nd or 3rd choice. My heart tend towards Greater Invisibility and Otiluke's Resilient Sphere... What do you think about it ? And more generally, what do you think to be the best 4th level spell for a sorcerer ? Thanks... :plotting:
Alan Smithee 05-30-05, 10:39 PM	Greater invisibility is a good choice. The party rogue will love you for it and it may wind up saving your sorcerous butt also. A good combat spell is enervation.
Dunelord 05-30-05, 10:45 PM	I have the same issue, Shadow Conjuration seems good to me. It gives you most of the Conjurations spells of 3rd or below which is a great varity for a Sorcerer - some ulitly some attack.
Rulebook 05-30-05, 10:49 PM	the most useful spells (all round) at 4th... Charm Monster (its always good to have friends) Polymorph (find the right shape for the right task) Animate Dead (untiring minions are usefull for all sorts of non-combatt things) Dimension Door (it beats making climb and swim checks most of the time)
runestar 05-30-05, 11:01 PM	I second polymorph, for sheer versatality.
Ariarig 05-30-05, 11:05 PM	Because of ethic principles, my character does not use any Necromancy or fire spells... Darkness spells sounds quite prohibited too. So, Animate Dead and Shadow Conjuration are not imaginable even if I recognize that the second one is very useful, because of its wide versatility. Concerning Improved Invisibility, it appears to me like one of the best 4th level spell, but I fear it to be a little confusing for my fellow co-players during melee: what if they do not know if an empty square near ennemies is really a free one...
Jaid 05-30-05, 11:19 PM	generally speaking, the fact that some poor fool is getting violently cut to ribbons from a certain square is a good indicator that a space is occupied. oh, and shadow conjuration is not necromancy, fire, or darkness, it's illusion.
The Simbul 05-31-05, 12:30 AM	Stoneskin
LordHell 05-31-05, 12:33 AM	I second stoneskin (We agree on something The Simbul ;) ). You can practically give yourself and the party fighters an extra 80HPs+.
Ariarig 05-31-05, 12:59 AM	Stoneskin is rather expensive... And when you only have one spell known, and 3 spells per day, you'd better make another choice, according to me... 750 gp spent per day to use all your 4th spell slot allowed sounds quite inappropriate, isn't it ? I love this spell, it is really powerful, but it is a kind of upper class luxury... :weep:
Zardnaar 05-31-05, 01:03 AM	I second stoneskin (We agree on something The Simbul ;) ). You can practically give yourself and the party fighters an extra 80HPs+. expensive at 250 a pop though. I like Enervation, Greater Invisability, Stoneskin. GI would probably win as its a utility spell/defensive spell and one could argue offensive spell via a rogue as well.
LordHell 05-31-05, 01:43 AM	Stoneskin is rather expensive... And when you only have one spell known, and 3 spells per day, you'd better make another choice, according to me... 750 gp spent per day to use all your 4th spell slot allowed sounds quite inappropriate, isn't it ? I love this spell, it is really powerful, but it is a kind of upper class luxury... :weep: More like 4 castings, which is 1000gp per day. Assuming 4 encounters a day, and 13 to level up, that's roughly 3250gp per level. At 8th level that is 8% of your wealth, and the cost reduces as you level up. Hardly inappropriate for the boost in hitpoints it gives you and your party. I agree though that the cost makes you look twice.
The Simbul 05-31-05, 01:57 AM	The average treasure value for a CR 8 encounter is 3,400 gold pieces, in a three person party that is 1,000+ per member, and when cast on all three members will give the party the ability to fight more creatures (and in turn aquire more loot) before exhausting enough of your hitpoints and healing resources to be forced to rest or abscond back to town. Plus, Sorcerers dont have money-sinkholes like updating, maintaining, and protecting spellbooks, thus they are more likely to have extra cash sitting around.
green_yawgmoth 05-31-05, 02:27 AM	Cold Orb. Blinding people is fun. It's also useful out of combat to... uh... air-condition your inn room? <.< http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Lupo1977 05-31-05, 12:46 PM	my choice would be "assay resistance" ... but its useful in combat only. its a swift action, and doing it will allow you to overcome even strong spellresistance. your DM will hate it :-)
Bopple 05-31-05, 12:51 PM	Assay Resistance is a bad choice for the first 4th lvl spell. (though later, it would be the best choice) I'd rather have Polymorph or Greater Invisibility.
Ariarig 05-31-05, 02:28 PM	Lupo> I agree with both you and Bopple. I had already thought about Assay Resistance, but I kept as my second 4th level spell known... ;)
Nanohund 05-31-05, 02:45 PM	I vote for Greater Invisibility as first choice, Polymorph or Confusion for second choice.
Paladin's Pride 05-31-05, 02:50 PM	While it won't be your first choice, orb of force from complete arcana (if you have access to it) is a great second choice. Having a spell that is touch based with no save, no spell resistance, can hit ghosts and other incorporeals and is not subject to energy resistance provides a spell that can be used against monsters that normally stymie a sorcerer. As far as first choices, I'll cast my vote for either polymorph or greater invisibility. Both are useful in and out of combat, can be used as a combat buff, and generally help to keep the caster alive. Last game we fought two ghostly warriors with a grudge against spellcasters. They were really laying down some heavy punishment to me because their incorporeal abilities and high mobility allowed them to bypass the fighters handily. With my remaining hitpoints in the single digits I polymorphed into a troll. Going from my normal 13 con to a 25 con instantly doubled my maximum hitpoints and healed me as if I had rested for a day. Polymorph provides you with a spell that can substitute for healing if the cleric can't get to you in time.
Tetsubo 05-31-05, 05:06 PM	I cast my vote for Polymorph. This spell is just so darn useful.
smrtgmp 05-31-05, 05:57 PM	Because of ethic principles, my character does not use any Necromancy or fire spells... Darkness spells sounds quite prohibited too. So, Animate Dead and Shadow Conjuration are not imaginable even if I recognize that the second one is very useful, because of its wide versatility.Shadow spells arent based on darkness or necromancy. They are illusion spells. I also cast my vote for polymorph. Its versatility is staggering. Not only is it one of the best combat buffs in the game, but it can be used to overcome nearly any obsticle. Stuck in a cave in? Turn into something with a burrow speed. Need to get up a tight mine shaft? Turn into something with a climb speed. Need to get accros a chasm? Turn into something that can fly. In the mood for some underwater adventureing? Turn into something that can breathe water that has a swim speed. Its capabilities are amazing, and should not be overlooked.
Dunelord 06-01-05, 12:46 AM	Because of ethic principles, my character does not use any Necromancy or fire spells... Darkness spells sounds quite prohibited too. So, Animate Dead and Shadow Conjuration are not imaginable even if I recognize that the second one is very useful, because of its wide versatility. Concerning Improved Invisibility, it appears to me like one of the best 4th level spell, but I fear it to be a little confusing for my fellow co-players during melee: what if they do not know if an empty square near ennemies is really a free one... Why can't you cast Necromancy or fire, and proably not shadow? I don't see the flow in that.
Keenath 06-01-05, 01:22 AM	You're going to have to make a decision between massively expanding your spell list or picking up a buff spell that may or may not be useful to you. If you choose the former, pick Shadow Conjuration. Using shadow-stuff to pull fake conjuration spells is a great trick -- it's like twelve spells for the price of one, but that one is 4th level. You're giving up power for diversity. It's something every sorcerer should have, but it's often a stronger second choice than a first choice. When you get a single 4th level spell, you may want something that you can wring every drop out of, and Shadow Conj. isn't it. If you decide you want a buff spell, there's a few choices. Greater Invis (remember, it's not Improved any more!) is great for you and the rogue (assuming you have some good blast-spells that will be of benefit while you're running around being invisible), but has a short duration and is otherwise somewhat weak, as there are a lot of effects that defeat invisibility. Polymorph is great when you put it on a fighting class like a fighter, monk, or paladin, but less wonderful when it's applied to yourself. It does have a versatility element, though, granting you some very small forms in addition to the large ones, and can get you special abilities like Fly without using a precious spell slot. Its duration is still pretty short, but several minutes isn't bad. Some people like Stoneskin. I don't -- at least, not as a sorc spell. As a sorcerer, you should be picking spells that you're going to use a LOT. Expensive components add up quickly when you use them every day, and when you only get a single 4th level spell known, it's better to go with something that's not going to cost you every time you use it. Spells with costs should probably be third or fourth choice for a spell level, with the exception of Limited Wish, which is a strong second pick at 7th level. I would select Polymorph if it were me, simply because you get a wide variety of species-based powers, it's useful in or out of combat, and it lasts more than one combat if you're lucky. Polymorph is a powerful 4th level spell (though it would be weak for a 5th level spell). It's got power and flexibility, which makes it so perfect for a sorcerer that I have trouble thinking of any reason not to take it!
Ariarig 06-01-05, 10:57 AM	Dunelord> Concerning Shadow spells, it is just a mistake I made. English is not my native language and, for one second (the one used to write my message :( ) I understand it as Darkness. But now, after reading all your useful messages, I clearly see my error. :surrender
tarkin 06-01-05, 12:10 PM	There are LOTS of really good 4th level spells. frankly, I don't particularly like the ones mentioned, except for Polymorph, which I think is powerfull, but not fun to use (as it takes too much time and effort figuring out what shape to take and what they get and don't get.) I really like: Explosive Cascade (shapeable fireball spell from Faerun - perfect for those cases where the fighter types rush in) Resilient Sphere (Great Defense OR GREAT offense, but not both) Fire Shield (Good defense and Ok offense both together) Invisibility, Greater (One of the best defense spells around) Enervation (mage killer - just removes their best offensive capabilties left.)
ElvishBard 06-01-05, 12:21 PM	Polymorph is an excellent choice, as is some of the other spells people have mentioned. You could think about Summon Monster IV, which has creatures that can help in different situations. You can also use metamagic spells to use up those fourth level spell slots left if the spell you choose won't help you the 3+ times a day you can cast it.
Dunelord 06-01-05, 10:02 PM	Dunelord> Concerning Shadow spells, it is just a mistake I made. English is not my native language and, for one second (the one used to write my message :( ) I understand it as Darkness. But now, after reading all your useful messages, I clearly see my error. :surrender That is fine I was just wondering what ethics keep you from casting certin spells.
tiercel 06-01-05, 11:30 PM	Though I dislike polymorph quite a lot, because it is not well written and also because it is arguably overpowered, it is probably the spell that gives you the most bang for your buck. It is a utility spell, a self-buff spell, and a party-buff spell. You won't have trouble running through all your slots/day on polymorph -- either you'll use it on yourself several times per day, or you will turn the whole party into trolls for the BBEG fight. Yeah. Sick like that. Though the flexibility of shadow conjuration sounds nice, that Will save that stacks on top of everything else (or only 20% effect) really makes it kind of harsh. It means you really only want to use shadow conjurations on things that will probably fail their Will saves, and if those are your targets, I'd rather my victim be panicked (by fear) or slowed or blinded (by glitterdust) than having to fight a celestial bison with 20% of its normal hitpoints. Greater invisibility is also, of course, very very nice. The key here to your decision is "what spell will I find useful to cast 4 times every day". Obviously you can mix this up a little bit depending what metamagic feats you know, but you don't want to finish a day of combat and still have 4th level slots left because your known 4th level spell is one you couldn't find a way to use (or use enough). If your campaign isn't pure combat, then any time you can use your spell slots in noncombat situations is useful too....
Lord shadow35 06-02-05, 12:43 AM	tarkin, fire storm is an 8th level spell and it is divine. Dimension door is a great spell Polymorph isn't bad otillukes resilient sphere is pretty solid(no pun intended) ;) Greater invisiblity is always nice
Ariarig 06-02-05, 10:10 AM	All> You're incontestably right when you give Polymorph as a really powerful and versatile spell. But to be honest, I find it unesthetic and confusing. Indeed, even if you can consider it is quite puerile, I think it is a kind of ugly spell to launch. Of course, it is a personal consideration, not dictate by any rule or the like, but I have difficulties to think about your ever good-looking friend, a luminous paladin involved in the struggle against Evil, willing to take the appearance of any hideous monster to serve its goals. And so do I. It is just a human feeling I guess. Think about reality. If you had the power of polymorphing, you'd probably accept to become something you find cute or aesthetic, but not a monster. It is just a question of self acceptance. As anyone here, I suppose, I use my real feelings to give more taste and depth to my character... And that is why I am not sure to like becoming a Carrion crawler, an Etheral marauder or a Gibbering mouther... Have you seen how repugnant they are. I do not want to scare my friend everytime I polymorph :coolcthul And moreover, I find Polymorph confusing. When you have to choose your new form, you have to look in every monster book you have (personally, we use 5 of them, MM I II III, Fiend Folio and Monster of Faerūn) to find the best combination of speed, abilities, qualities and AC... It slows considerably yopur game. Of course, you can prepare and select some good choices between two sessions of D&D but you'll probably find yourself, one day, in a situation you hadn't plan for... :ahem: I know I tend to complicate everything, but it is my point of view about Polymorph... I am alone to have such a point of view concerning this spell ?
Ariarig 06-02-05, 10:49 AM	Dunelord> As I said in my previous message concerning Polymorph, I tend to give my characters a lot of little manias and obsessions not especially imposed by rules. All my co-players friends do the same, anyway... And, more generally, I try to inspire myself from my real feelings to accept or reject some things in the game. So, to answer you, this ethical point of view preventing me to cast Evil, Necromancy or Fire spells are just self chosen, or almost. The only spells I cannot use, not of my own decision, are Fire spells. I have the Water Bloodline feat, from Dragon Magazine 311 and it forbids me to use any spell with the Fire descriptor. But for Evil or Necromancy, it is just an ethical choice. My sorcerer is heavily involved in the struggle against Evil, and he does not want to make any concession to this side he's fighting. So, no Evil spells, of course, but furthermore, no Necromancy spells, even if I know that not all of them have any evil consonance... More, I do not accept to use any spell with an unesthetic result. Let me explain... I apply a kind of Geneva convention :ghosted: concerning which spell is eligible against intelligent creatures. I do not use any acid spell for instance, nor would have use any fire one, because it is a kind of inhuman. Not for the person you attack, because in front of pain, it is the same between Magic missile and burning hands, but for the family. One more time, think about reality. Give back to a family the corpse of someone dead burned. You'll see what I mean. There are different levels of acceptance in front of a dead one. Fire and acid spells, and some other ones, tends to let the cadaver quite disfigured. It is undeserving from civilized slaughter, no ? :tongue: You can hack and slash, disintegrate or freeze someone, but not burn it... You'll probably find all these a kind of excessive, but I like to create intricate characters, full of manias and strange precepts. It gives a particular flavor to your PC...
Lord shadow35 06-02-05, 11:43 AM	piont taken, ariarig
solbergb 06-02-05, 11:45 AM	Given the desire to leave a pretty corpse, have you considered phantasmal killer? Kills without a mark. Of course the rictus of fear on their face should be smoothed out by a professional mortuary before returning the corpse to its family...
tarkin 06-02-05, 12:18 PM	tarkin, fire storm is an 8th level spell and it is divine. Whoops, I meant to write "Fire SHIELD". Thanks for pointing out my freudian slip. I have corrected it. I don't think the pretty corpse is a big deal for bloodthirsty people such as my players. But taking someone's soul, that goes beyond reasonableness - so I don't like any of the spells that do that ([Death] I believe).
Dunelord 06-02-05, 12:45 PM	Ariarig some of your in character thought seems at odds with itself, which is fine if that is a choice yo the plaer make. You talk about wanting to not burn people alive so familes don't have to see there loved ones like that which makes sence, but the only spell in the game that would prevent someone from rotting on the way home is a Gentle Repose. Not trying to change your mind on anything just a thought.
Ariarig 06-02-05, 01:27 PM	Of course, Dunelord, I do not use Gentle repose on my victim's bodies, I'm not such an integrist... I do not feel the greatness to spend my spells on dead ennemies just to prevent families sensibilities, spells are really too precious. But even without Gentle repose, a corpse can keep a "pretty" appearance for a few hours... It is enough for the family to arrive when the battle area was the market place of your town, for instance. Or the city guard... Always better to convince the incoming gards you're the good guy when the body is on an acceptable shape :bigeyes: Solbergb> Phantasmal killer sounds like a good idea but it lacks of versatility... Moreover, it is tough to break two successive saving throws. In the meantime, it is balanced for a 4st level spell...
amanodel 06-02-05, 10:29 PM	Sounds pretty lucrative to me ethically, but hey that's your character which is na interesting concept! Dimension Door and Benign Transposition[Miniatures Handbook] is one of the best two spells posible. Benign Transposition with a will save, allows you to swap anyone with anyone. With Dimension Door, you get a powerful ability to choose where you want a monster to be. You can control where that monster will end up, not the monster itself. Couple that with Resilient Sphere eventually and it is just awesome.