Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Asmodeur 04-03-07, 08:12 AM	My mage is soon hitting 7th lvl in a campaign, and I wanted to have a little fun with my friends. I was planning on using the hydra + chill touch combination, just to show how broken it is. However, i read a post saying that this combination wasnt possible anymore.. True or false? I cant seem to access the SRD atm, nor can i find the errata. Either way, what do you think are the best uses of polymorph at 7th level?
Tichondrus 04-03-07, 08:17 AM	The best use ever for every single spell is the situational one, any other use of it is just generic =S Just do waht comes into mind in that momment, it makes for really funny seassions of gameplay.
Asmodeur 04-03-07, 08:29 AM	Obviously I should have phrased my last question otherwise. What is, in your opinion, the most broken abuse of polymorph at lvl 7? I want to prove a point to some friends, and was going to use the hydra example, but if that is breaking the rules, I need something else, and i just dont have the time to search through 5 monster books before tonight. Thanks in advance
Tichondrus 04-03-07, 09:19 AM	Not broken at all, you morph into a hydra. They cut one of your heads. When you become human again, you have one less arm. Sure they are dead, but if you become a hydra, there are still ten million ways in wich you can get killed (and even easier due to your size). It's not overpowered at all, just mind that anything a PC can do a NPC can do as well, so the game is always balanced in that aspect, and look at it also in this way: If the rogue won initiative, you won't morph, he'll kill you with the first hit. If the warrior won initiative, he will graple you and you wont be casting any spells because you'll be unable to speak. If the priest beats you in initiative, you are basically dead, clerics and druids are rigged as hell. If another mage beats you in initiative, he'll just fly above your hydra-ness and salute you with a few fireballs/orbs
SunTzuWarmaster 04-03-07, 09:34 AM	*Note: post assumed level 9 party of Barbarian + Wizard against a number of non-spellcasting enemies (call them level 9 fighters). Hydra, without even thinking about it. Hydras have <hit dice> number of attacks, reach, and combat reflexes. Round .5 - enemy wins initiative, surrounds + attacks. Your turn - turn barbarian into pyro-hydra barbarian - depending on DM interpretation (not rules, but almost every DM has a say on Polymorph), your barbarian eigther gets Rage or Hydra fire attacks, he should eigther rage + 9 attacks or 9 fire-breathes, all after a 5' step backwards. enemy turn - rush hydra, suffer 9 attacks. You have given a level 9 barbarian EIGHTEEN ATTACKS with this spell. Or, an inteligent enemy will take 5' back draw bows and ranged attack. The response to this is fairly obvious. You cast Glitterdust to blind them (sculpted, preferrably) and the barbarian uses his reach. The enemy, at the end of round TWO, has no good options against a party of a barbarian and a wizard. They should be blinded, so they get no ranged attacking option, they can make a listen check to locate the hydra (they will make it, but who cares?), if they charge in, they are subject to the massive number of AoOs. Literally, the best option at this point is to run away. As a wizard, just keep stacking on the buffs, next round, Haste the hydra/barb so that each head gets an additional attack. Greater Invisibility so that all opponents are denied Dex bonus (better for a rogue-hydra, but they lack hp), Glitterdust the enemy (blind = -2 AC, no dex, 50% miss chance). Mage Armor the hydra to account for the poor AC, simply fireball everyone, or cut off the retreat with a Web/Black Tentacles (Hydras are large with high strength and multiple legs, they don't have to worry about these spells). Of course, you should always hide behind this monstrosity. Edit: Bah someone beat me to it. Yea, never transform YOURSELF into a hydra, that's what high-bab, high-hp, feat-takers are for. You have no hp. Besides, as a mage I have yet to actually get someone else's blood on my robes.
Tichondrus 04-03-07, 09:56 AM	And again even if you turn a full BAB class into a hydra, you are *wasting a spell* since the full BAB person will only have a movement rate of 20 meaning that even charging, s/he'll not be able to run fast enough to avoid the enemies masacring you first, then runing/shoting at him. Also I think you need a dispell magic or similar to turn the warrior back to human...
runestar 04-03-07, 10:05 AM	SunTzu, I can't help but notice that your advice seems riddled with rules inconsistencies. I agree that polymorph is better cast on the fighters than on spellcasters, but just what are you trying to prove here?:confused: your barbarian eigther gets Rage or Hydra fire attacks, he should eigther rage + 9 attacks or 9 fire-breathes, all after a 5' step backwards. Breath weapons are SU abilities, which polymorph does not grant. Haste the hydra/barb so that each head gets an additional attack. Haste just grants an extra attack each round, not an extra attack/head. And the way it is worded, it does not benefit natural attacks at all. if they charge in, they are subject to the massive number of AoOs. Literally, the best option at this point is to run away. You do not incur AoOs for entering a square threatened by the hydra, only for leaving the area, IIRC. And why not run? The hydra also has difficulty overcoming dr, though the massive damage you can deal arguably makes up for it.
Steidas 04-03-07, 11:08 AM	The Hydra has reach, THAT'S why the massive AoO.
ArcTan 04-03-07, 11:13 AM	My mage is soon hitting 7th lvl in a campaign, and I wanted to have a little fun with my friends. I was planning on using the hydra + chill touch combination, just to show how broken it is. However, i read a post saying that this combination wasnt possible anymore.. True or false? I cant seem to access the SRD atm, nor can i find the errata. Either way, what do you think are the best uses of polymorph at 7th level? It never was possible if you follow the idea that because alter self says that you can't use it to make more attacks than you can in your normal form, and none of the later polymorph-tree spells alters that, that you can't. (The Rules of the Game articles have tried to reinterpret this in wonky ways but it's really better if you just do what it says -- a hydra can't make more than two attacks because you can't.) It's not possible *now* because WotC has unofficially deleted polymorph from the rules now.
Asmodeur 04-03-07, 11:13 AM	Yes. but according to the RAW, you do not gain any extra attacks derived from additional limbs that the new form may have. Hence my question, what is now the best way to abuse of polymorph :)
ArcTan 04-03-07, 11:18 AM	Yes. but according to the RAW, you do not gain any extra attacks derived from additional limbs that the new form may have. Hence my question, what is now the best way to abuse of polymorph :) Drag it into the game and insist that the fact that the polymorph errata don't actually say "This spell no longer exists" means there's no problem with it.
Steidas 04-03-07, 11:19 AM	If you turn into a Xill, and by SOME reason you had the multiattack feat, could you USE those limbs?
Nephlite 04-03-07, 11:24 AM	It never was possible if you follow the idea that because alter self says that you can't use it to make more attacks than you can in your normal form, and none of the later polymorph-tree spells alters that, that you can't. (The Rules of the Game articles have tried to reinterpret this in wonky ways but it's really better if you just do what it says -- a hydra can't make more than two attacks because you can't.) It's not possible *now* because WotC has unofficially deleted polymorph from the rules now. Um, only alter self limits attacks that aren't normal for type. If the creature has two claws you gain that when Altered. Hydra heads are normal for type. Plus you gain Hydras special Combat Reflexe also allowing it. Polymoph does give you extra attacks. Rules of the Game is correctly reading it. Polymorph is never deleted. They said, "Polymorph rules are nessed up. We can't do a dang thing about it. So here are some new spells to compensate". The new spells are the polymorph sub schools that do also give additional attacks. P
ArcTan 04-03-07, 11:33 AM	Um, only alter self limits attacks that aren't normal for type. If the creature has two claws you gain that when Altered. What's that supposed to mean? Either it gives you extra attacks or it doesn't give you extra attacks. There's no such thing as "normal for type". "Than normal" pretty clearly means "for your natural form". The other reading is nonsensical -- of *course* you can't turn into a nine-headed hydra and make more attacks than a nine-headed hydra can make. Hydra heads are normal for type. Plus you gain Hydras special Combat Reflexe also allowing it. Combat Reflexes has to do with AoOs. Do you mean Multiattack? Letting Multiattack work for a polymorphed character pretty clearly goes against the idea of "You cannot make more attacks OR MORE ADVANTAGEOUS TWO-WEAPON ATTACKS than normal". If I can polymorph into something that has the Two-Weapon Fighting or Multiattack feat as a racial bonus feat and then use it, then that clause means nothing. Polymoph does give you extra attacks. Rules of the Game is correctly reading it. The RotG article doesn't even make *sense*. It seems to be saying that you can't use manufactured weapons in your extra limbs and that this is what is meant by "extra attacks", which is nonsense. No one would normally think you could do that anyway (wield longswords in your hydra's mouths), and interpreting it the other way, what about monsters whose monster entries *do* have them wielding manufactured weapons? Does it still count as "normal for a marilith" to wield +5 flaming longswords instead of regular longswords? Polymorph is never deleted. They said, "Polymorph rules are nessed up. We can't do a dang thing about it. So here are some new spells to compensate". Well, they could do a dang thing about it if they deleted it. But they can't or won't do that for various reasons -- it'd disrupt campaigns that currently exist, force people to rewrite their character sheets, etc. The last time they changed rules like this they had to have a new edition -- 3.0 to 3.5 -- so they're reluctant to do that again, given the negative reaction last time. The errata doesn't "compensate" -- it just rips out polymorph from all existing rules, so that Wildshape is no longer based on polymorph, nor Alternate Form, nor any of those other things. The new spells are the polymorph sub schools that do also give additional attacks. P The new Polymorph subschool spells *explicitly* work completely differently from the old-school polymorph. They literally turn you into the other monster, with all of the monster's abilities and none of your own. In any case, there is no Polymorph subschool spell called hydraform, for good reason.
Asmodeur 04-03-07, 11:33 AM	Okay, finally got access to the SRD: This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. This is from the polymorph description in the SRD. The rest of the test mentions nothing of attacks. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. This is from Alter Self text. Now, could someone explain to me why it's possible to make 7-8 attacks if someone polymorphs into a hydra? EDIT: okay, got it now i think. So its still perfectly possible, sweet
Asmodeur 04-03-07, 11:38 AM	On a side note, can anyone recall a 7HD humanoid monster with more strength than the troll?
Magetastic 04-03-07, 12:38 PM	On a side note, can anyone recall a 7HD humanoid monster with more strength than the troll? I assume by humanoid you mean "has hands and fingers" in that case i'd say Ent. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/treant.htm)
PhaedrusXY 04-03-07, 12:43 PM	On a side note, can anyone recall a 7HD humanoid monster with more strength than the troll?Annis Hag, Large, NA +10, Str 25, Dex 12, Con 14; MM/SRD Benefits: Improved Grab, Rake, Rend See this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=758751) for a good overview of Polymorph, and summary of forms.
SunTzuWarmaster 04-03-07, 01:31 PM	It is very simple. If you polymorph into something with 2 claws and a bite, then you get 2 claws and a bite. If you get hasted, you get 2 claws and 2 bites (the extra attack in a full attack). Polymorph into a hydra (9-headed). They have 9 attacks (none are attacks for having high bab). You get 9 attacks. Win! Hasted is an issue up to your DM, but ordinarily each head resolves independently, and would gain an additional attack from being haste. This is stupid though, any sane DM would limit you to 10 attacks. What do you mean that the magic-user in this case is exposed. Stand/crouch behind the hydra. You should have total concealment. Yes, the hydra would have a move speed of 20. Until you hasted it. Then it would move at 20+30=50, and charge 100 feet. Yes, you do not gain the breath weapon, you are correct. However, this is for the SAME REASON that you get to keep your rage ability. Look at the previous sentence, I said that the kind of DM will determine which you will be getting. You incur AoOs from the Hydra's reach. You are 15' away from the hydra at the beginning of your round (the hydra made a 5' back after a full attack). If you attempt to move/charge and attack, you incur 9 AoOs (hydras have combat reflexes as a feat that you must gain). http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm
Ozzymandias 04-03-07, 01:55 PM	Yes, you do not gain the breath weapon, you are correct. However, this is for the SAME REASON that you get to keep your rage ability. Look at the previous sentence, I said that the kind of DM will determine which you will be getting. You incur AoOs from the Hydra's reach. You are 15' away from the hydra at the beginning of your round (the hydra made a 5' back after a full attack). If you attempt to move/charge and attack, you incur 9 AoOs (hydras have combat reflexes as a feat that you must gain). Polymorph sucks as written. Everyone knows this. To be a pain in the butt, I'd have to say that the above does not work, because, as found in the SRD, polymorph does not grant feats, even if listed as bonus feats for the monster. Then again, it also doesn't grant abilities such as scent or tremorsense. If you're looking for something that'll make other people cry when you cast the spell, use the hydra. They're awesomely powerful. Or a troll, or treant, or something else with natural armor and high strength. Or use this (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html)instead: it's much easier to understand, and it still provides the versatility that polymorph allows.
PhaedrusXY 04-03-07, 01:56 PM	Polymorph sucks as written. Everyone knows this. To be a pain in the butt, I'd have to say that the above does not work, because, as found in the SRD, polymorph does not grant feats, even if listed as bonus feats for the monster. Yes it does. It is based on Alter Self, which says this: You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
Asmodeur 04-04-07, 03:17 AM	Brilliant, thanks for the info, especially the links to the charOp lists, those will be very helpful.
ArcTan 04-04-07, 03:33 AM	It is very simple. If you polymorph into something with 2 claws and a bite, then you get 2 claws and a bite. If you get hasted, you get 2 claws and 2 bites (the extra attack in a full attack). No, you don't. Why do you keep saying this? If this is true, then that clause in alter self is meaningless. The text says extra limbs don't let you have more attacks than you normally do. If you are a creature with one unarmed strike per round (as most PHB races are), and you get 2 claws and a bite, YOU CAN ONLY USE ONE OF THEM PER ROUND. Polymorph into a hydra (9-headed). They have 9 attacks (none are attacks for having high bab). You get 9 attacks. Win! Hasted is an issue up to your DM, but ordinarily each head resolves independently, and would gain an additional attack from being haste. This is stupid though, any sane DM would limit you to 10 attacks. Any sane DM would read alter self, realize polymorph never contradicts it and realize you do not get extra attacks for having extra heads.
ArcTan 04-04-07, 03:34 AM	EDIT: okay, got it now i think. So its still perfectly possible, sweet No, it's not. SunTzuWarmaster is completely wrong, as was the Rules of the Game article. If you'll notice, he *never* explained his ruling in a way that makes sense. All he did was flagrantly contradict the text you quoted as though it didn't exist, which seems to be a popular sport among munchkins interpreting the rules.
ArcTan 04-04-07, 03:45 AM	Look, about the Rules of the Game articles, Skip Williams is an idiot. I really have to say this. He's wrong incredibly often. If you really think Skip Williams is any kind of authority on the rules, then take out your PHB and cross out the part where it says dwarves don't take a movement penalty in heavy armor, because in one of his last articles Skip, in his infinite wisdom, decided that that rule doesn't exist because he forgot about it. (Note that this was an article ABOUT PICKING WHICH RACE WORKS BEST FOR A TANK BUILD, and he actually said a reason not to be a dwarf was that HEAVY ARMOR SLOWS THEM DOWN TOO MUCH. F***ING F***!!!) Let's even quote the relevant passage: Many DMs and players find this rule puzzling. Essentially, it means that if you suddenly find yourself with two extra arms you can't just pick up four weapons and wade into melee, use a four-handed weapon, fire and reload a heavy crossbow (even a repeating heavy crossbow) in the same round, or perform any other combat tricks that come to mind. You can make attacks that are "normal" for you or normal for your assumed form, but you can't combine them. See the problem here? IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. Say you've got an ordinary, garden-variety, totally homegrown marilith. Say this marilith finds two +5 longswords. Would the marilith switch out two of its ordinary longswords from the Monster Manual for those enchanted longswords? Duh. Of course it would. Would any sane DM say that because the marilith's example equipment in the MM is mundane longswords that the marilith is somehow incapable of wielding enchanted longswords because this isn't "normal" for the marilith? Of course not. Now Skip Williams is telling me that because I've become a marilith I "can't just pick up" melee weapons and use them, even though the marilith in the Monster Manual has them, because that's "not normal" for a marilith. This is clearly ridiculous. It has nothing to do with the idea that I don't get extra attacks for being a marilith. It's some wonky ruling that says that I can only use weapons that are "normal" for a marilith. (No mundane greataxe? Sigh.) He then goes on to say stupid things about nonexistent "four-handed weapons" or using extra limbs to reload a heavy crossbow faster (which doesn't make sense -- the crossbow fires and needs to be reloaded, and the speed is dependent on having to action the mechanism, not how many hands you have free -- does Skip not even understand how a crossbow works?). It basically sounds like Skip is saying this clause is a clause saying "You can't just make up a four-handed weapon and use it", or "You can't make up a totally nonexistent rule about using extra arms to decrease crossbow loading time and use it". Which is fine. That's good. You don't need this clause there to say that, and you certainly don't need a clause that talks about "extra attacks" and "more advantageous two-weapon attacks", which sounds a hell of a lot like it's talking about MAKING ATTACKS AT ALL and not making up fake impossible things like four-handed weapons. A simple, naive reading of the text gives you an OBVIOUS reading of what this means. A new form with more limbs doesn't let you make more attacks or better two-weapon attacks than in your normal form. Turn into a marilith, and your ordinary human mind, which is only used to controlling human limbs, can't control the marilith limbs well enough to wield more weapons than you're used to. It does *not* mean that you can wield the "normal" complement of six swords just fine but you can't switch out one of the swords for an axe. It means you CANNOT WIELD SIX SWORDS. You can wield *one* sword without penalty, or *two* swords with the penalties you'd take for not having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. This is very clear. Moreover, it doesn't really nerf polymorph all that much. It does nerf the really obviously game-shattering "trick" builds based on using things like the hydra, which is *fine*. Note that this is not the first time Skip, who did not write all the rules in the book and does not know why all the rules in the book were written, and who seems to frequently get 3.0 and 3.5 confused in his mind, has simply decided a 3.5 rule doesn't exist because he doesn't like it or forgot about it. In this same series of articles he decided that weapons and armor automatically resize when polymorphing, in bold defiance of what the actual rules say on the matter.
Asmodeur 04-04-07, 04:06 AM	In this same series of articles he decided that weapons and armor automatically resize when polymorphing, in bold defiance of what the actual rules say on the matter. Could you point me to where that is? When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. Because, if you are refering to this part of the Alter Self description, isn't it murky at best? Now granted, english is only my third language, but i see several ways that passage could be understood.
ArcTan 04-04-07, 04:25 AM	Could you point me to where that is? Because, if you are refering to this part of the Alter Self description, isn't it murky at best? Now granted, english is only my third language, but i see several ways that passage could be understood. The point is that this passage doesn't say anything about resizing. Nothing in the polymorph rules say anything about resizing equipment. Polymorph spells, from alter self on up, DON'T resize equipment. (Note that the spell enlarge person does resize equipment, because it SPECIFICALLY SAYS IT DOES.) Equipment resizes only if the equipment, itself, has the magical property that it resizes. Now, the SRD says this about magic items: When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items. Note that it says "magical clothing or jewelry", not weapons or armor. The DMG goes into more detail about this, saying that magic items that are *not* weapons and armor don't have a Size stat by default because they're intended to be universally usable, but it's up to the DM whether magic items like rings really should be resizable. Weapons and armor, however, do *not* fall into this category. Right after saying this about "garments" and "jewelry", it says: Armor and Weapon Sizes Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01-30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31-90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91-100). Armor and weapons *have* a size and retain their size when you try to change shape. Unless you're using a spell that specifically resizes your equipment for you, the armor and weapons don't change size with you -- this means that when polymorphing, you usually get your armor melded into you and have to wield a weapon you take a penalty with because it's sized wrong. There are magic properties that are designed to alleviate this -- Complete Adventurer has the sizing property that you can apply to a magic weapon, for a +1 cost, that lets you spend a standard action to resize it to fit you. If magic weapons auto-resize, that property is a meaningless waste of space.
Asmodeur 04-04-07, 04:34 AM	Yeah, you are right, I had forgotten about the size rule in 3.5. I only recently began playing again, so I dont know the 3.5 rules like i knew the 2.0 ones. We always played with a houserule that magic armor shrunk and enlarged to fit, which is probably what i got mixed up with the actual rules :) Once again, thanks for the clarification. Seems my polymorph (and alter self) will mostly be utility and a way to improve my AC, no real point in changing the melee guy into a troll if he loses the benefits of his armor. Least not enough to warrant the use of a 4th lvl spell.
ArcTan 04-04-07, 04:41 AM	Yeah, you are right, I had forgotten about the size rule in 3.5. I only recently began playing again, so I dont know the 3.5 rules like i knew the 2.0 ones. We always played with a houserule that magic armor shrunk and enlarged to fit, which is probably what i got mixed up with the actual rules :) Once again, thanks for the clarification. Seems my polymorph (and alter self) will mostly be utility and a way to improve my AC, no real point in changing the melee guy into a troll if he loses the benefits of his armor. Least not enough to warrant the use of a 4th lvl spell. To be fair, there are plenty of Medium sized creatures you could turn into that give you a lot of power. And creatures like the War Troll will make up a *lot* of what you lose in armor with their natural armor -- the difference will be negligible until you start hitting high levels and wearing armor with +3 and +4 bonuses on it. Don't forget that -- at least as I see it -- the enlarge person/polymorph trick works by RAW. You can enlarge your Human Fighter into a Large version of himself, wearing a Large version of his armor, and *then* polymorph him into a Troll, and he loses nothing. My corrections are intended to lay out, as I see it, how the polymorph spell is actually written and what it's actually supposed to do, *not* how to fix it. As written, it's still broken, it's just harder to break and makes a little more sense than if you use bad interpretations that make polymorph into a spell no sane writer would've put into the PHB at all. I would seriously recommend Rich Burlew's polymorph fix if you really must have a polymorph-like spell in the game. As with all Rich Burlew's fixes, it makes eminent sense from a flavor standpoint, is pretty balanced from a crunch standpoint... and accomplishes this by being pages and pages and pages long to read, but that's the breaks.
Asmodeur 04-04-07, 07:47 AM	First of all, yeah, the enlarge then polymorph was pretty obvious. That said, 2 rounds is an awful lot of time to spend "buffing", hell, with the average duration of 3.5 fights (compared to 2.0), even one round is a long time ;) I would seriously recommend Rich Burlew's polymorph fix if you really must have a polymorph-like spell in the game. As with all Rich Burlew's fixes, it makes eminent sense from a flavor standpoint, is pretty balanced from a crunch standpoint... and accomplishes this by being pages and pages and pages long to read, but that's the breaks. Reply With Quote I might give it a look for when i DM. As i player, I will just limit myself to the forms and tactics that doesnt break the game.. Thanks for the imput on the matter.
TygerTyger 04-04-07, 08:55 AM	Arctan, how do you combine the two obviously opposing statements in the quotes that you used above: Alter Self states: A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. But the article you've quoted states that: You can make attacks that are "normal" for you or normal for your assumed form, but you can't combine them. One attack with each head is "normal" for a hydra. That said, I tend to agree with you, otherwise this level 4 spell becomes far too powerful. But I can certainly see why some people believe what they do, that morphing into a hydra would indeed grant the attacks. They are the normal, natural attacks of a hydra. To say that's an argument only proposed by munchkins seems a bit harsh. Its a particular reading of the rules, just as yours is.
ArcTan 04-04-07, 12:56 PM	Arctan, how do you combine the two obviously opposing statements in the quotes that you used above: Alter Self states: But the article you've quoted states that: One attack with each head is "normal" for a hydra. I don't "combine" them. The article is dead wrong. That sentence doesn't occur anywhere in the rules -- it's something Skip Williams made up, and things Skip Williams makes up for his poorly researched Web articles that he writes by himself do not count as errata to WotC official rules. It's, again, stupid. The idea of an attack that's "normal for the creature" has no definition in the WotC rules. It's probably because Skip Williams stared at the rules, thought "Gosh, does this mean I can't polymorph into a hydra?" and came up with some BS logic at the last minute to avoid saying he'd been misinterpreting the rules all along. (I have to say this again: Skip Williams, when he was the Sage, was VERY BAD at his job.) That said, I tend to agree with you, otherwise this level 4 spell becomes far too powerful. But I can certainly see why some people believe what they do, that morphing into a hydra would indeed grant the attacks. They are the normal, natural attacks of a hydra. Which is why the SPELL says it does NOT grant you extra attacks. Skip Williams is WRONG, and I'm really p*ssed at him for having written so many articles that blatantly change the rules and making people think the rules are supposed to be that way. To say that's an argument only proposed by munchkins seems a bit harsh. Its a particular reading of the rules, just as yours is. It's not a reading of the rules. It's a reading of Skip Williams' misremembering the rules.
TygerTyger 04-04-07, 01:10 PM	That aside, there is no where in the description of the Hydra that states the Hydra's multiple attacks are either extraordinary (and thus completely out) or supernatural (and thus out as well). The Alter Self description does not state that you don't get the forms basic attacks, all it says is that you do not gain extra attacks derived from additional "limbs". Heads and necks are not limbs. Not in any dictionary I checked anyway. If you are going to allow the natural attacks of, say a lion (2 claws +7 melee (1d4+5) and bite +2 melee (1d8+2) on Full Attack) then by that logic you are required to allow the natural attacks of the hydra (5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3) on full attack). All of these were taken directly from the "Full Attack" category of the monster's description. I agree with your rationale, but from a balance perspective, not from a rules perspective. I wouldn't allow it in my games, but that would be a DM fiat, not a RAW decision. You are interpreting the rules, just like everyone else. The correctness or incorrectness of the article is not relevant to that. The rules are plainly ambiguous, and the spell was never intended to be used like this. Its why they want to get rid of it after all! Just my two coppers though.
rgrmrdth 04-04-07, 01:13 PM	Just to put in my 2 cent. The Master Transmogrifist is the best at this.:D Always played, when using the spell polymorph, you get the attacks of the creature (ch). So, a wizard polymorphed into a 10 headed hydra would get 10 attacks on any given round. Of course he would have a low BaB (+5 plus str from hydra (21) for another +5 = +10 for each head). The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.
ArcTan 04-04-07, 01:29 PM	That aside, there is no where in the description of the Hydra that states the Hydra's multiple attacks are either extraordinary (and thus completely out) or supernatural (and thus out as well). The Alter Self description does not state that you don't get the forms basic attacks, all it says is that you do not gain extra attacks derived from additional "limbs". Heads and necks are not limbs. Not in any dictionary I checked anyway. Actually, if they were Extraordinary Attacks they would be *in*. Polymorph explicitly grants you Extraordinary Special Attacks. The main thing is that it doesn't let you make *more* attacks than you normally could. And harping on how heads don't count as "limbs" is logic-chopping. Hydras use their heads and necks exactly the way real animals use limbs, right down to the part where they can *lose* a head and neck and still survive. We don't call heads and necks "limbs" in real life because there isn't any real-life animal that works like a hydra. If you are going to allow the natural attacks of, say a lion (2 claws +7 melee (1d4+5) and bite +2 melee (1d8+2) on Full Attack) then by that logic you are required to allow the natural attacks of the hydra. No, because a hydra has limbs you don't have (long, prehensile necks with extra heads on them), and a lion doesn't. It's a clunky way to rule, but it makes sense. If you started as a creature with no limbs at all, I'd rule that you couldn't use *any* natural attacks as a lion -- you can't control limbs you don't have in your normal form. As a human, you can morph into something with two hands and a mouth and use those attacks, but you can't use attacks from a prehensile tail (tail slap), from extra arms below your arms, or from an extra head. I agree with your rationale, but from a balance perspective, not from a rules perspective. I wouldn't allow it in my games, but that would be a DM fiat, not a RAW decision. You are interpreting the rules, just like everyone else. The correctness or incorrectness of the article is not relevant to that. The rules are plainly ambiguous, and the spell was never intended to be used like this. Its why they want to get rid of it after all! Just my two coppers though. There are good and there are bad interpretations. Bad interpretations tend to be the ones that make you scratch your head and say "Well, if *that's* what they meant, why did they put that in there at all?" Bad interpretations are ones that basically make a whole sentence redundant and meaningless. You can disagree with my interpretation, sure, but I'd still hold that any alternate interpretation has to explain what "You can't make more attacks or more advantageous two-weapon attacks" *means*. Skip Williams' article basically makes that clause mean nothing at all. (You can't use a four-handed sword, which doesn't exist anyway. You can't reload a heavy crossbow as a free action, which nothing in the rules says you can anyway. You can't "just pick up" four longswords and fight, unless that's "normal for the creature", whatever the HELL that means.)
ArcTan 04-04-07, 01:32 PM	Just to put in my 2 cent. The Master Transmogrifist is the best at this.:D Always played, when using the spell polymorph, you get the attacks of the creature (ch). So, a wizard polymorphed into a 10 headed hydra would get 10 attacks on any given round. Of course he would have a low BaB (+5 plus str from hydra (21) for another +5 = +10 for each head). Well, you were playing wrong, is all I would say. You get the Extraordinary Special Attacks of the creature, but a hydra's heads are *not* extraordinary -- they are natural attacks. Moreover, the alter self rules explicitly say that while you get natural weapons you can't use more of them than you have limbs in your normal form.
Ozzymandias 04-04-07, 02:21 PM	Yes it does. It is based on Alter Self, which says this: Apologies - I see where I made my mistake. To help the OP with his question: a hydra is cool, because you can make extra Attacks of Opportunity, but because of the clause; "A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal;" you cannot make multiple attacks during your turn, because the extra heads are extra limbs. Still, polymorph is way too powerful for the way it's currently worded. Even with the errata from Complete Mage (and other similar books), it's possible to take advantage of a couple of abilities that'll just make the character totally awesome for a few rounds (all that's needed in most fights).
Nephlite 04-04-07, 02:35 PM	What's that supposed to mean? Either it gives you extra attacks or it doesn't give you extra attacks. There's no such thing as "normal for type". "Than normal" pretty clearly means "for your natural form". The other reading is nonsensical -- of *course* you can't turn into a nine-headed hydra and make more attacks than a nine-headed hydra can make. Newbie DMs and payers might try to comine BAB with natural attacks so they have that line about normal for the Hydra. Combat Reflexes has to do with AoOs. Do you mean Multiattack? Letting Multiattack work for a polymorphed character pretty clearly goes against the idea of "You cannot make more attacks OR MORE ADVANTAGEOUS TWO-WEAPON ATTACKS than normal". Nope, if you get an attack od opportunity as a hydra you get to get with every head. Says so in the Hydra Combat reflexes text. Another reason hydras are scary (X head per attack of opportuity attack you). If I can polymorph into something that has the Two-Weapon Fighting or Multiattack feat as a racial bonus feat and then use it, then that clause means nothing. Um, yes it does. Multiattack doesn't add attack, it lowers the penalties. Normally, you attack the secondary natural weapon has a -5 penalty. Multiattackl lowers this to -2. In any case, there is no Polymorph subschool spell called hydraform, for good reason. I invented it. I'll show it here. 3rd level Wiz/Sorc/Wu Jen (complete Mage forgot they get Polymorph too): 5headed-Hydrashape: Dur: 1 minute/ level. Become 5 headed Hydra. +20 temporary Hps disappear at end of spell. You become a hydra (keep your own Hps, lose your feats/class features, gain creatures feats, Creatures physical stats). Use creatures base saves; base Attk bonus. Stats: 5 headed hydra: 5 HD Huge,. +20 temp Hps. Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 20 ft. Init: +1. BAB +5. Reach: 15 feet. AC: 15 (10 + 1 Dex - 2 size + 6 Na). Stats: Str 17/Dex 12/Con 20 Feats: Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Toughness. Saves: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +3. Weapon: 5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3) Traits: Darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 15, low-light vision, scent. Skills: Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +11
rgrmrdth 04-04-07, 07:37 PM	Well, you were playing wrong, is all I would say. You get the Extraordinary Special Attacks of the creature, but a hydra's heads are *not* extraordinary -- they are natural attacks. Moreover, the alter self rules explicitly say that while you get natural weapons you can't use more of them than you have limbs in your normal form. Glad I do not have to rely on "you" saying what is wrong and what is right. :rolleyes: Now lets analyze this. Open up the Compete Arcane and look at the Master Transmogrifist. Go to the part it reads about what happens when he/she reaches LvL 10 of the PrC. She changes to a dragon with the tenticles of the HUGE Octopus, getting all 10 attacks on top of the normal attacks allowed with the dragon. Furthermore, if you were to read the characters forms and also read the attacks - he/she gets more than just his/her normal amount of attacks. If what you say is true then he would not get any extra attacks and the 10th lvl ability is useless.
SunTzuWarmaster 04-04-07, 09:57 PM	"It's a clunky way to rule, but it makes sense. If you started as a creature with no limbs at all, I'd rule that you couldn't use *any* natural attacks as a lion -- you can't control limbs you don't have in your normal form" Then what's the freaking point? So you change into an octopus but cannot use the arms? So you can change into a Dragon but can't use 2 of the claw attacks, or any wing attacks, or the wings themselves? So if you Polymorph into a raptorian (essentially, elf with wings), you can't use the wings because they aren't inherant? This is what you are saying. "Transforming into a creature that has limbs that you do not means that you cannot use them". For the record, I think the best polymorph "fix" was designed by Frank Trollman. It went something like "remove your token from the map. Put a monster there. This monster will generally act in a manner that you would. When the duration expires, put your token on the map with damage equal to that that the creature has taken. The type of monster is limited by your caster level in hit dice. The creature does not get any of the supernatural attacks, abilities, spells, or spell-like abilities that it would normally have. You lose your supernatural attacks, abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities for this duration." I mean, come on, really, if you polymorph into a lion you should get the Claw/Claw/Bite/Rake/Rake/Imp.Grab ability (and in accordance with the rules, you do) that comes with jumping on an opponent and thrashing him. This is what lions DO. It doesn't matter that your natural form is a spellcasting ooze, THAT IS WHY YOU DECIDED TO TRANSFORM. Admittedly, hydra is a bit over-the-top.
PhaedrusXY 04-04-07, 10:10 PM	Actually, the hydra being able to attack with all of its heads after moving, and as a single standard action, is obviously an Extraordinary Attack, and hence should be gained via Polymorph. It isn't listed in the Special Attacks section of the monster entry, but it is obviously an attack mode that is specific to this monster. Since it is not magical, it must be Extraordinary. Even if you don't allow someone to gain use of all the natural attacks of a Lion, this should be the case. I'm not saying that I think Polymorph isn't overpowered, especially if used like this. I have written my own revisions, which I will probably use if I DM again. I do think it is legal to use all the heads, if you're talking RAW, however.
tyrecian 04-05-07, 12:20 AM	Hehe, we were playing some barbs in an arena battle in a module (age of worms) and our DM was pretty sure he was going to kill us. I used 'polymorph' to transform myself into a Rust Monster! Then while my party wasted a series of dispels on these jackasses (who all had purchased 1-3rd level potions at 20th level caster, so we couldnt dispel em) i ran around and rusted their weapons and armor. Naturally they both had HHHaversacks with extra weapons, but they were sunderers, and the extra weapons were not greatswords. It was fun, the barbs were pretty much powerless against me, as i was flying too. A flying rust monster, the DM's face was priceless as he spent nearly half an hour reading the MM descriptor and polymorph (no errata) to discover just how bad i was cheating. He finally allowed it, and the battle still took forver, but in the end the rust monster persevered. The most broken use of polymorph to me is turning into a dragon (at least from a MM standpoint) at 7th level. You can turn into a medium dragon that has around (cant remember best) +6 to your nat armor. Since this is not magical rather being a natural state of your new body, it doesnt impede magical natural armor bonuses, meaning great stacking power for buffed up ACs in the 30s at 7th level. You also get to fly, which is a HUGE advantage at 7th level, and you can still talk and cast, cause dragons can do those things. Not to mention you can drop your Handy Haversack and wands and such and polymorph into a dragon and then pick em back up, so they DONT mold into form, adn you can still wear them. Depending on DM, you can still wear rings and even bracers and crowns and necklaces, so you still have slots open to improve things. All of this from one spell. If you are playing errated the con bonus isnt so great, but by the book, you also get HPs and all you sacrifice is a dex hit that can be made up with a 2nd level cat's grace. I know there is better stuff out there in other manuals, but we are required to play core... most of time, and so i found that for general forays around the world this is a pretty broken way to **** your party off, or make htem happy, depends on how cynical your party is...