Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UniversalJoker 01-08-05, 09:47 PM	I am putting together a character for a 15th level game and I am going with a swashbuckler 3 / fighter 2 / invisible blade 5 / dervish 5. For only 1200 gp I can get a Polymorph any object spell cast on this human character. I am looking for the best creature that the character can be polymorphed into that will be a permanent change. I am not clear on what a human can be polymorphed into permanently through the use of this spell. Can the creature be polymorphed into an outsider permanently as long as the outsiders intelligence is less than or equal to the character's? If so, then I believe that some outsider would be the best choice. So can this change (human to outsider) be permanent? If an outsider is not possible as a permanent change, then I was thinking that a monstrous humanoid should definitely be a permanent change. In that case, the spelleater sarkrith from Fiend Folio seems to be a good choice. Any one have any better ideas? Universal Joker
Elgonn 01-08-05, 09:50 PM	Kelvezu (outsider) Your build looks Dex based.
UniversalJoker 01-08-05, 10:01 PM	Kelvezu (outsider) Your build looks Dex based. So, I take that to mean that in your opinion you can permanently PAO into an outsider from human? If so, what is the source for the Kelvezu? Universal Joker
Elgonn 01-08-05, 10:05 PM	So, I take that to mean that in your opinion you can permanently PAO into an outsider from human? As long as you can get +9 on the table. Kelvezu would require same or lower int most likely. I think Kelvezu is in Fiend Folio.
Pinky's brain 01-08-05, 10:43 PM	A demon from MM2, the int requirement shouldnt be too difficult to manage. Of course it is going to get dispelled sooner or later.
Seeker95 01-09-05, 09:01 AM	To get a +9 on the duration chart, going from a human to an outsider, you will already have: Same kingdom (+5) Same class (+2) (probably) To get the last +2, you either need same size *or* same Intelligence. Stick with a medium outsider, and you are all set. By the time you have the ability to use PAO, you are powerful enough that there will be very few changes you would want to make. And the LA for almost any outsider is going to be a level hindrance anyway. Be sure to check with your DM to see how s/he will handle LA in this type of application.
Elgonn 01-09-05, 01:21 PM	Stick with a medium outsider, and you are all set. Kelvezu is medium. Part of the reason I picked it. Even if you aren't allowed same class status you'll just need the intelligence line.
bave 01-09-05, 10:15 PM	Yea, Kelvezu is great, just get the outsider template first... which is *real* simple to get? Good ole Cave and War trolls thanks.
Pinky's brain 01-09-05, 10:47 PM	Same class? Demons are not mammals ... now if he wanted to change into a yugoloth okay. Dont see why this should get LA ... it is going to get dispelled for sure.
Seeker95 01-10-05, 07:26 PM	Demons are not mammals ...Are you sure about that? Plenty of the demons have hair and mammary glands. Hell, the succubus is as mammarian as they get*. I would guess that demons come in all the kingdoms of the material world, and maybe a few more. It could go either way. *(pun intended)
Iku Rex 01-10-05, 10:00 PM	I am putting together a character for a 15th level game and I am going with a swashbuckler 3 / fighter 2 / invisible blade 5 / dervish 5. For only 1200 gp I can get a Polymorph any object spell cast on this human character. I am looking for the best creature that the character can be polymorphed into that will be a permanent change.That depends greatly on which rules you're using. If you're using the PH rules I'd go with a Firbolg (MM2) - Large, Str 36, Dex 13, Con 23, Int 14, +12 natural armor. (You'll have to invest in some Large daggers.) If you're using Skip Williams' polymorph rules from Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a) I recommend the Gloom (ELH) - Medium, Str 32, Dex 46, Con 29, Int 26, +13d6 sneak attack , +12 insight AC. Hoary hunters and lesahy are also good choices from the ELH (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/EpicMonsters(G-W).rtf ). Also note that there is no level adjustment for using polymorph any object.
Seeker95 01-10-05, 10:51 PM	Also note that there is no level adjustment for using polymorph any object.Written where? If you are a PC playing a race with a level adjustment, you are going to have a level adjustment in my game. Whether you took that race at the start, or through a reincarnation or through PAO, your next level will be a little harder to gain. LA is there for balance. Balance doesn't disappear just because the player gets creative.
bave 01-10-05, 11:56 PM	While I agree balance is a concern, there is no mechanic written in for it. One great reason is that PAO can be dispelled, and you suddenly remember all sorts of things? I agree with it for balance sakes, disagree for common sense. Keep in mind that almost any BBEG with a clue that sees a Firbolg walking around wearing all sorts of equipment, casting spells, and hanging out with humans and elves etc is going to be popping a greater dispell magic.
bave 01-11-05, 12:01 AM	double post, sorry
Iku Rex 01-11-05, 02:12 AM	Written where?Nowhere. Nor do the rules say that a there is no level adjustment for characters wearing purple hats. Fortunately DnD rules aren't applied randomly. Characters assuming the form a different creature with magic, or characters with purple hats, do not have a LA. Naturally, a DM can assign LAs for various buff spells if he wants to. But I see no need to tack "the DM can invent new rules" to every single statement I make on this board.
Seeker95 01-11-05, 11:08 AM	Nowhere. Nor do the rules say that a there is no level adjustment for characters wearing purple hats.Red herring. The rules do say that players choosing to play monster races often have a Level Adjustment. The rules do not say that this Level Adjustment goes away just because the race is "acquired".
The Mailman 01-11-05, 11:17 AM	Red herring. The rules do say that players choosing to play monster races often have a Level Adjustment. The rules do not say that this Level Adjustment goes away just because the race is "acquired". While I get what you're saying, I'm not sure I agree. How does your rule affect other shapeshifting (wild shape, alter self, poly, etc.)? Do you only get the LA if it's permanent? Or do you temporarily get an LA while you're something else? What if it gets dispelled? If you're a Master Transmografist and you use your permanent alter self ability do you gain a level adjustment if you alter into a race with a LA right before you level? The effect is permanent for the MT as long as she wants it. And Iku, in the interest of full disclosure, you might add that there are many of us who believe that the "Rules of the Game" reading of polymorph is consistent with the PH and that your reading of the PH amounts to a house rule.
Seeker95 01-11-05, 11:36 AM	How does your rule affect other shapeshifting (wild shape, alter self, poly, etc.)? Do you only get the LA if it's permanent? Or do you temporarily get an LA while you're something else? What if it gets dispelled? If you're a Master Transmografist and you use your permanent alter self ability do you gain a level adjustment if you alter into a race with a LA right before you level? The effect is permanent for the MT as long as she wants it.A level adjustment will only affect level advancement, so as far as wild shape, alter self, poly goes, these are not level advencement involving spells in general. If it gets dispelled, I guess you'd be a little bit sorry you spent the effort, energy, money and experience to be permanently changed. That is the risk you take. If you had already gained a few "LA levele" in the process, that will be considered a bad investment. For the Master Transmografist, I might apply the LA if the MTr was planning to make that his "permanent" form, but I doubt it. The class by its very nature will probably entail changing that form frequently. I would consider the "no-LA applied" to be an extension of the class features. In any case, the MTr would be the exception to the rule.
Snow Savant 01-11-05, 11:37 AM	By the time you have the ability to use PAO, you are powerful enough that there will be very few changes you would want to make. And the LA for almost any outsider is going to be a level hindrance anyway. Be sure to check with your DM to see how s/he will handle LA in this type of application. Unless the DM house rules something, LA is not an issue here. At all. If you are PAO'ed into a Kelvezu (for example), by the RAW, you are working under the parameters of a spell with a duration. LA does not apply here. If you are a PC playing a race with a level adjustment, you are going to have a level adjustment in my game. Whether you took that race at the start, or through a reincarnation or through PAO, your next level will be a little harder to gain. LA is there for balance. Balance doesn't disappear just because the player gets creative.That's your perogative to use house rules, Seeker. Unfortunately, your dictate does not correlate with the RAW. The rules do say that players choosing to play monster races often have a Level Adjustment. The rules do not say that this Level Adjustment goes away just because the race is "acquired". The rules do not let you apply LA to a durationed spell! Ever. Granted, PAO is one of the most poorly written, incredibly abuseable spells in 3.5. It's a mandatory acquisition for a 17th level Wizard, and needs to be completely revised, as does the whole Alter Self/Polymorph/Wildshape chain of mechanics and inheritances. Skip's 4-Part Article ("Rules of the Game") did not help matters at all either. So yeah, Seeker's house ruling probably has some serious merit to it, but first know what the rules say. Acknowledge them for how they need to be tweaked. Then tweak. :D XO, Snow :cloud9:
Dracspero 01-11-05, 12:24 PM	Also, doesn't PAO use the same rules as Polymorph? (I don't have the PHB with me atm). If so, then you only gain some of the abilities of the new form. You do not get supernatural attacks, spell-like abilities, or any of the special qualities of that race. If that is the case, then the LA wouldn't be appropriate. If it doesn't follow the Polymorph rules and works more like Shapechange (granting all powers and special abilities) then the above is a moo (like a cow's opinion) point. But in any case, as was pointed out above, it CAN be dispelled (i.e. it is not really permanent), and anyone with decent divination abilities would be able to determine the spell is on him. If a race had +4 Str (with no penalties) and Darkvision, it would have at least a +1 LA on it. Does that mean you would incur a +1 LA penalty on a player who got permanent Bullstrength and Darkvision spells cast on him?
Seeker95 01-11-05, 03:08 PM	Snow Savant, Iku Rex and Dracspero have all noted that the rules do not say you add an LA to polymorph et all. It should, however, be noted, that neither did I. I said that if you are going to play a character with a race that has an LA, then you have to live with the LA. The rules for Level Adjustment don't have anything to do with the duration of a spell. The rules for Level Adjustment have nothing to do with spells. And the rules don't have a list of exceptions to when a race with an LA doesn't use the LA. Adding the LA has nothing to do with how you got the race. It has to do with playing a race with Level Adjustment. If you become a race with an LA, you have an LA.
MystErikEry 01-11-05, 03:21 PM	Is there anything with a negative LA? For example, you're fighting some big nasties, but you know they'll die in one hit from the fighter. So you Polymorph yourself into a LA-4 species (a rat or something :P) and let the fighter kill the nasty. Now you gain experience for the encounter, but since you had a lower ECL, you get more experience. Then you change back. How's that for abuse? You could say that the XP can be awarded whenever the DM feels like it, but then you could just Polymorph into the LA-4 species whenever the adventure is over or whatnot, so you're getting the ECL for experience-gained... :P And if you say that the DM can just wait until the character stops being the LA race before giving experience, that's DM call. Then the DM could wait until the Polymorph Any Object is dispelled before the character gets any experience at all, as well... >_> I personally would rule it the way Seeker is thinking, though. If you become primarily a LA race, then you get the LA penalty until you lose the race. However, I don't think the LA rules fully cover when to apply it and when not to, so it would be COMPLETELY up to the DM (LA does apply to reincarnated characters, after all, but how can it apply well to a duration spell? When is the LA taken into account during the process? It can't just be "when monsters are defeated" or "whenever experience happens to get rewarded" (the latter of which isn't really entirely specified, either - again, it's up to the DM)... It's hard to have set-in-stone rules). I'd rule that any spell with a Permanent duration affects LA, while spells that do not, do not. So if you Polymorph a lot, you don't get the LA, since you have to cast Polymorph each time you want to Polymorph. But if you Polymorph Any Object, it doesn't work the same way..
Pinky's brain 01-11-05, 03:30 PM	Which would only be applicable if he changed his race with a wish. The only thing which distuingishes polymorph any object from polymorph is duration, nothing else. Whether someone polymorphs before going into an encounter or used polymorph any object which can stay active for many encounters doesnt matter much for the encounter itself (at level 15 the fact that a level 4 spell has to be cast isnt really significant either). So why should it matter to experience? There are few LA'd monster races without any EX/SU abilities at all, which you wont get, and a lot dont have LA at all. None of them can be changed to human form by a dispel magic either. LA isnt meant to be applied for playing while under the influence of polymorph/shapechange. If you want to houserule that for every encounter your type determines your experience penalties then have fun averaging out the various ECLs for people who change type during the encounter, and trying to determine ECLs for monsters with only a CR. Seems a bit too much of a headache to me.
Seeker95 01-11-05, 03:42 PM	The only thing which distuingishes polymorph any object from polymorph is duration, nothing else. And being able to affect objects. And being able to turn something into an object. And gaining the mental stats of the new form. Once you've deviated that far from the "base spell", you really are talking about a very different set of mechanics.
Pinky's brain 01-11-05, 03:44 PM	Not in the context of this thread apart from gaining the int score ... which I forgot about, but still irrelevant to this guy's character.
Heron_Marked_Blade 01-11-05, 05:54 PM	The Chronotyryn (Field Folio) is one of my favorites, as long as you don't mind turning into a bird-man-creature. Its Dual Actions ability cannot be bettered, and its spell-like abilities and spellcasting ability isn't to be sneezed at either. And STR 26, DEX 21, CON 21, INT 22, WIS 17, CHA 26 isn't bad either.
Pinky's brain 01-11-05, 06:07 PM	Would be nice, if he had access to a permanent shapechange.
Iku Rex 01-11-05, 11:14 PM	(My position has already been covered by several other posters - I'll try to avoid repeating arguments, instead picking out a few points that should be addressed. The quotes are from several different posts.) Red herring. Red herring: (http://www.ramdac.org/fallacies.php?fallacy=Red%20Herring) A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. The amusing thing is that falsely accusing someone of introducing a red herring is, in itself, a red herring. The fact is that no rule says that spells (or abilities) that change your form give you a level adjustment. It is not my job to prove that there isn't a level adjustment for buff spells. (The formal name of this fallacy is "shifting the burden of proof".) A level adjustment will only affect level advancement, so as far as wild shape, alter self, poly goes, these are not level advencement involving spells in general. As others have pointed out, level adjustment affects the amount of experience you get after an encounter. If magical shapechanging constitutes "playing a race with a level adjustment" then the DM has to eyeball the LA for each form used in a battle and then somehow dole out XP based on that. ("Let's see - your druid turned into a bear 2 rounds into combat. Of the top of my head I'd say that's a +4 level adjustment, but since the battle lasted 7 rounds I'll knock of one LA. You'll get XP as if your character was three levels higher. Tough. ") [T]he LA for almost any outsider is going to be a level hindrance ... Snow Savant, Iku Rex and Dracspero have all noted that the rules do not say you add an LA to polymorph et all. It should, however, be noted, that neither did I. Right.
SmokeShadow 01-12-05, 12:35 AM	That's a bit min/max-ish, don'cha think? Is it just a dungeon crawl or a campaign? All things told, if they have story-line reasons, you might as well let them have/eat their cake. PAO is, what, a 8th level spell? If the players can do that, they can pretty much do whatever they want (in game terms, you need to horribly out-CR them to make a dent or death). If the players can't do it on their own, don't have 15th level wizards handing it out. Let them be weird outsiders and liches. Heck, work it into the story. Don't bother with the LA crap. Just remember that being Banished is bad, and that Mordenkainen's disjunction beats stuff anyway (and if you're biggest monsters don't cast MDJ, you've got other problems). Don't let the rules get in the way of the roleplaying. If the players will have fun, and have a good *reason* to do it, let them.
Heron_Marked_Blade 01-12-05, 01:01 AM	Would be nice, if he had access to a permanent shapechange. Hmm, after re-reading the spell I realize that you don't "become" the new creature, you're just under the effects of a permanent Polymorph. :embarrass <smacks head> So no supernatural abilities, which is what the Dual Actions ability is.... Gosh, that's no fun. :( But once Shapechange becomes accessible..... :evillaugh
was_fired 01-12-05, 01:08 AM	I don't see how an outsider can be classed as either a mammal or an animal. An outsider is a solidified soul which doesn't need food or water. An animal is a dual natured being which needs food and water. A mammal is a class of animal. If it isn't an animal it can't be a mammal. For example a platapus has a beak, but it isn't a bird. A squid has a beak and it isn't a bird. A lizard has claws it isn't a bear. A human is a biped which stands on two legs, but that doen't mean we members of the species ****-erectus. A flesh golem isn't a human even if they are made from all of the same parts. Just like an outsider isn't a human if if they look the same.
isaac anthony 01-12-05, 01:12 AM	Adding the LA has nothing to do with how you got the race. It has to do with playing a race with Level Adjustment. If you become a race with an LA, you have an LA. by that logic would a character than used PAO for < permanant duration get a LA for as long as the spell lasted? usually your logic is pretty good, but not this time...
Lord of Dorkness 01-12-05, 08:49 AM	Hm. Look at it this way: If he does every encounter in the form of PaO'ed bear (or whatever), he gets used to it. His XP earned reflect what he learns to do with his claws and bite etc. If he's then MDJ'ed, he cannot take advantage of some of his experience as a bear and in fact will be hindered because he might have become unused to his natural human form ("what the... why can't I rend anymore?", different arm length, body movement, lesser ability scores etc.) So from a _logical_ point this seems appropriate. But my usual answer to this sort of problems is: If it is creative, fun or heroic, allow it. As a DM I'd give no XP penalty, no matter what seems logical or not.
bave 01-12-05, 09:23 AM	Then it is safe to assume that a warrior should get an LA for fighting with certain magic items and equipment? If he loses it he forgets everything he has learned since? You cannot tack a LA onto a non permanent (dispellable) template. This is why.... it is called "magic". You are talking about a 15th level caster, which in all rights should be powerful.
Pinky's brain 01-12-05, 10:57 AM	If wildshape/polymorph dont give you an xp penalty neither should polymorph any object, it is that simple. The use of wildshape/polymorph before an encounter at those levels is not a significant use of resources, you cant use that as an arguement for giving a XP penalty (and as said before, there are no rules to determine the ECL ... because not all races have LA, and because you dont actually become the race in the first place and lack ex/su/sp abilities).
Seeker95 01-12-05, 11:51 AM	If magical shapechanging constitutes "playing a race with a level adjustment" then the DM has to eyeball the LA for each form used in a battle and then somehow dole out XP based on that.If you want to micromanage line item control like that, go ahead. The rules support this. The DM is also free to use common sense simplicity* in applying the rules. Micromanagement = headache. Waive the line-item accounting for encounter at a time changes. Macromanagement = easy. Keep the rules-supported LA for permanently adopted forms. *This is no different than requiring players to keep track of to-the-copper-piece in-town expenditures, sales-tax, hour-by-hour random encounters on week-long overland journeys and in-the-dungeon bathroom breaks. You can if you want. The rules support all of this. But a DM is not required to do so.
Seeker95 01-12-05, 11:54 AM	by that logic would a character than used PAO for < permanant duration get a LA for as long as the spell lasted?Yes. But see below.usually your logic is pretty good, but not this time...The LOGIC is perfectly sound. See the post directly above to learn how logic is not a straight-jacket, and common sense is not excluded from the game.
Seeker95 01-12-05, 11:57 AM	If wildshape/polymorph dont give you an xp penalty neither should polymorph any object, it is that simple.You're making the wrong argument. Polymorph Any Object doesn't give you an LA. Playing a Race with a Level Adjustment gives you an LA. It really is that simple.
Dracspero 01-12-05, 12:09 PM	How about this? Do not use a level adjustment. HOWEVER, if a player is taking advantage of a permanent spell cast by another character, that other character should be considered part of the party in calculating CR, experience division etc for as long as that spell is available. Spells in which the original caster sacrifices experience (like wish or limited wish) would not be included in this since a different "price" is being paid for the benefit. For example, there is a party of 4 5th level characters. One of the characters gets willingly and permanently polymorphed by a 15th level wizard. From that point forward until the polymorph is dispelled, the 15th level wizard is considered part of any group that 5th level character is part of. So instead of a CR 5 party, it is now (5X4+15/4) a CR 9 party. Roll encounters appropriately. :D
Pinky's brain 01-12-05, 01:45 PM	You're making the wrong argument. Polymorph Any Object doesn't give you an LA. Playing a Race with a Level Adjustment gives you an LA. It really is that simple.You arent playing as a different race, you are polymorphed ... just like someone who wildshapes/polymorphs before/during an encounter.
Aracor 01-12-05, 02:09 PM	You arent playing as a different race, you are polymorphed ... just like someone who wildshapes/polymorphs before/during an encounter. I have to admit that I can see where he's coming from. If it's a permanent change, then I can see how you'd be playing a creature of that race. Polymorph is good for a single battle generally. Not always, but generally. Like I said, I can definitely see where Seeker's coming from. Luckily, I haven't had anyone try that in any of my campaigns. ~Aracor
UniversalJoker 01-12-05, 03:04 PM	First of all, thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I am going to go with the first suggestion that I got, the Kelvezu. It works great with the character concept. I am not clear on whether the form PAO'd into has to have fewer HD than the character, but the Kelvezu meets this requirement as well. As a result of this discussion, I am going to have the spell cast by a 20th level caster which will up the cost to 1600 gp and get a 4000 gp Ring of Counterspells with a Greater Dispel in it. Dispel magic won't be able to touch the spell and it will take two greater dispels to knock it out and even then it won't be a sure thing with a 20th level caster. One question that comes to mind, however, is why many lower level characters don't do this. I do not buy the LA arguement. I see no reason why a character under the influence of a spell would slow down advancement because of that spell. But the benefit for 1200 gp, less than the cost of +1 magic weapon, seems astounding. It is much less so if you are restricted to forms with the same or lower HD than the wizard casting the spell or the character recieving it, whichever is less. Does anyone know if this last point is true about PAO? Universal Joker
Aracor 01-12-05, 03:44 PM	Let's see...why more people don't do it. First of all, most DMs wouldn't allow it, or would do like Seeker and make you eat the level adjustments. Second of all, there's the fact that you're turned into a DEMON! That would make things rather difficult to walk in and by a weapon. Most likely you'd be attacked on sight instead, virtually anywhere that you went. And I, as a DM, if you insisted on this, would make sure that you were punished role-playing wise. You would be paying a MINIMUM of double for everything that you were purchasing from then on, if you could find someone to sell it to you at all. And you WOULD have other adventurers attacking the fearsome demon to rid the world of such evil, or imagine the fun if you actually managed to get banished to wherever that creature's home plane is. Trust me, if you're in a campaign where you're actually role-playing, it's not worth it. At all. ~Aracor
Seeker95 01-12-05, 04:42 PM	I do not buy the LA arguement. I see no reason why a character under the influence of a spell would slow down advancement because of that spell.Level Adjustment is not an "in game explanation" mechanic. Level Advancement is the meta-game mechanic that keeps things balanced. The reason some creatures have Level Adjustment is that they are more powerful. A 1st Level Kelvezu Fighter is more powerful than a 1st Level Dwarf Fighter. A 10th Level Kelvezu Fighter is more powerful than a 10th Level Dwarf Fighter. Again, it has nothing to do with how you came to be playing a more powerful race. It should be noted that I am not trying to convince anyone that this is the way they have to do it. I repeat myself on this point because some peoiple seem to be giving objections that have nothing to do with the point I am making. Saying you disagree with having LA for polymorph any object has nothing to do with racial LA. Saying you disagree with having LA for in-game race changes is another matter.
bave 01-12-05, 05:39 PM	Level Adjustment is not an "in game explanation" mechanic. Level Advancement is the meta-game mechanic that keeps things balanced. The reason some creatures have Level Adjustment is that they are more powerful. A 1st Level Kelvezu Fighter is more powerful than a 1st Level Dwarf Fighter. A 10th Level Kelvezu Fighter is more powerful than a 10th Level Dwarf Fighter. I agree, however: A 15th Level Human Wizard PAO'd into a 15th Level Kelevzu Wizard does not warrant an LA, for one simple reason. It.is.not.irrevocable.
Seeker95 01-12-05, 06:39 PM	It.is.not.irrevocable.Neither.is.any.oth er.form.you.may.have.including.your.orig inal. Wish, PAO, Miracle, Reincarnation can all result in "permanent" but "not irrevocable" form changes. Nothing in D&D is "irrevocable". Stop getting hung up on how someone ends up permanently taking on the form of a race with a Level Adjustment. Justifying how you should be able to play a powerful race, every session, "permanently" smacks of munchkinism. If you want to be permanently in the form of a race with an LA, whether by birth, template, wish, mircale or PAO, changing the balance of a game results in the same game mechanics that keep that balance in check.
Iku Rex 01-12-05, 11:52 PM	If you want to micromanage line item control like that, go ahead. The rules support this.Which rules. Please provide a rule quote supporting that "magical shapechanging constitutes 'playing a race with a level adjustment'." Note that pointing out that magical shapechanging constitutes 'playing a race with a level adjustment' if magical shapechanging constitutes 'playing a race with a level adjustment' is not proof of anything. And I'm a little surprised at how casually you dismiss a DnD rule that would cut the XP of many characters by (easily) 50-100% . I wonder why no DM in the world (I may be too categorical here, but and I don't think so) enforces this rule. And why it's not in any rulebook. And why it's never been mentioned by any game designer.
ronyon 01-13-05, 12:44 AM	Whats the minimum for this spell? 15th level wizard? The origenal poster said he was going to go get a 20th level wizard to do the deed. Problem solved. What good aligned wizard would do this? More importantly, why wouldnt any nuetral to evil aligned wizard of this high level simply charm, geas, dominate and other wise screw this character out of his money and his freedom, mean while turning this guy into something more useful to the wizard? I love magic to be bought and sold, but there are limits. Just assume that the characters in questionact like Pcs. If this means that they sell their magic as fast as the can cast it, fine. The end result will be encounters with bandits who are polymorphed, pirats that are polymorphed, skeletons polymorphed int other undead by their necromancer masters... Anything the Pcs do the oposition might do as well.
smrtgmp 01-13-05, 02:19 AM	Justifying how you should be able to play a powerful race, every session, "permanently" smacks of munchkinism. If you want to be permanently in the form of a race with an LA, whether by birth, template, wish, mircale or PAO, changing the balance of a game results in the same game mechanics that keep that balance in check.The problem is, you arent really the new race. Even if you enjoy its physical characteristics, you dont get anything else (such as spell like abilities, etc). I think of it like summon spells. PC's dont get extra XP for killing summoned creatures, because the ability to summon was factored into the CR of the summoner. The same goes for PAO. The ability to permanently take the form of another creature is part of what you get for being a 15th+ level mage. It shouldnt come with an extra penalty.
Archtyrant Terevoth 01-13-05, 06:37 AM	Seeker's interpretation isn't supported or refuted by the core rules. There's nothing saying you do or don't inherit the LA of the creature you become, therefore it's the DM's call. Inheriting the LA is actually probably a good idea because it cuts down on the amount of polymorph abuse in game. If it's worth an XP penalty for someone to play a firbolg, there's no difference if you temporarily turn into a firbolg. While you're in that form, you should have the penalty in the form of LA. I think it makes sense and it's reasonable, and nothing in the core rules says that you don't get LA for that. It has been stated before in the FAQ I believe that you can gain LA in the middle of play, such as picking up a template like lycanthrope, and you can also lose LA when you lose that template. Now, I think one could logically say that polymorphing is similar to gaining or losing a template, so handing out LA in that situation is possibly warranted. However the system does open up some new cheese, namely the ability to lose LA. If you have something with high mental stats and a high LA, you can polymorph yourself into a normal human, or something with a lower LA, and immediately gain the levels associated with your new LA. Thus if you were a nymph (LA+7) and got polymorphed into a human, you'd immediately gain 7 levels just for being polymorphed, and you get to keep your mental stat bonuses. And when you get your LA back, those extra levels don't go away, you just have a bigger ECL. Granted you'll never be able to gain another level again, but you just gained 7 levels for basically nothing.
bave 01-13-05, 10:57 AM	They are not getting a template or a new race, they are under the effects of an 8th level spell. Next thing you would be saying is that a wish should give you a +1 enhancement/dispellable bonus? This is simply one of the best "buff" spells in the game, but it is still vulnerable to dispells. How is this any different than walking around with extended greater magic vest/weapon, mage armor, overland flight and any other number of full day spells which provide good bonuses? Its your houserule, but IMO its overkill.
ashcat_lt 01-13-05, 11:25 AM	First off, the only thing you stand to really gain from this is Str, Dex, Con, possibly Int, and maybe some natural armor. You retain your class, level, hitpoints, BAB, Base Saves, etc. This to me kind of answers the question. It's more like a good combination of pre-battle buffs, or a set of magic items that really wouldn't be too far out of line for a 15th level character. I personally think this is a pretty absurd debate about the LA thing. Druids do not get LA's for wildshaping, wizards and sorcerors don't get get LA's for polymorphing. It just plain doesn't happen because the wildshape ability and the polymorph spell are a) already balanced and b) built into their level already. Think about it from the perspective of the druid being an NPC opponent. It's CR is equal to it's ECL for IT'S race and class levels. When it changes into a dire lion, you don't change CR, because the ability to change into a dire lion is already factored in. Same reason you don't get XP for defeating summoned monsters. I kind of hope this ends this little tangent so that people can get back around to giving the poor guy some suggestions.
Seeker95 01-13-05, 11:28 AM	Thus if you were a nymph (LA+7) and got polymorphed into a human, you'd immediately gain 7 levels just for being polymorphedIt is a possible outcome, conceptually. Become a weaker creature and lose the LA. Except that you can never raise more than one level at a time. So at best / worst, you would end up rasing one level. Like I said, if a DM wants to micromanage, he can. I won't micomanage each change like that. But if my player wants to permanently PAO into a creature with a Level Adjustment, he's going to have the Level Adjustment.
Seeker95 01-13-05, 11:31 AM	I kind of hope this ends this little tangent so that people can get back around to giving the poor guy some suggestions.He already got suggestions. If he needs more, he'll ask. And have you ever noticed how often people seem to ask folks to get "back on topic" only after they add their own opinion to the tangent? :P
Pinky's brain 01-13-05, 11:39 AM	Polymorph is good for a single battle generally.At level 15 a 4th level spell or a use of wildshape isnt a significant use of resources. BTW if you are going to make a permanent PAO give you a LA then make it a true race change (including EX/SU stuff) and non dispellable ... otherwise it would be plain stupid, and hypocritical to not assign the same to people who can polymorph on the fly (or worse, shapechange).
Seeker95 01-13-05, 11:49 AM	BTW if you are going to make a permanent PAO give you a LA then make it a true race change (including EX/SU stuff) and non dispellable ... otherwise it would be plain stupid, and hypocritical to not assign the same to people who can polymorph on the fly (or worse, shapechange).Ignoring your antagonistic extraneous comments... I do. PAO functions as polymorph is all good, but it goes on to note that PAO changes one creature or object into another. Not "take the form of". Changes into. You really do become a rock, or the shrew, or the manticore. It is still dispellable.
Dracspero 01-13-05, 11:50 AM	However the system does open up some new cheese, namely the ability to lose LA. If you have something with high mental stats and a high LA, you can polymorph yourself into a normal human, or something with a lower LA, and immediately gain the levels associated with your new LA. Thus if you were a nymph (LA+7) and got polymorphed into a human, you'd immediately gain 7 levels just for being polymorphed, and you get to keep your mental stat bonuses. And when you get your LA back, those extra levels don't go away, you just have a bigger ECL. Granted you'll never be able to gain another level again, but you just gained 7 levels for basically nothing. Actually, you wouldn't gain any new levels, you would just be considered lower level. If a 1st level pixie (ECL 5) were POA'd into a human, he'd become a 1st level human (ECL 1).
bave 01-13-05, 11:54 AM	Ignoring your antagonistic extraneous comments... Ok, put away your thesaurus you got for christmas. No one is impressed about using a 4 syllable word when a 2 will do. PAO functions as polymorph is all good, but it goes on to note that PAO changes one creature or object into another. Not "take the form of". Changes into. You really do become a rock, or the shrew, or the manticore. It is still dispellable. Exactly, it is still dispellable and you still dont have all of the abilities. You dont BECOME the shrew, you have taken the form of a shrew with an undefined duration.
Seeker95 01-13-05, 11:59 AM	You dont BECOME the shrew, you have taken the form of a shrew with an undefined duration.Read the spell description again. No mention of "taking the form of". It says that you change into.
bave 01-13-05, 12:07 PM	No. If you became a shrew you would think of nothing but eating little berries or whatever shrews think of. You take the form of. You do not take the abilities of, you do not take the mentality of, you do not gain the alignment of. You still retain your personality, personal abilities, and class abilities. All leads back to you take the form of, not become.
Pinky's brain 01-13-05, 12:08 PM	Only alter self uses form in the sense of shape, polymorph "turns you into another form of living creature" too. So the only addition PAO makes in that respect is that objects are added as potential forms, it does not remove the limitation on EX/SU abilities.
El_Machinae 01-13-05, 03:09 PM	I don't think you can turn into an outsider. The text says "functions like polymorph", and in that spell you cannot turn into an outsider. Regardless, I can see how you could read around that. For sure, a pebble is not one of the listed types either. And the spell is, as said, rather vague. I would NOT say, however, that an outsider is the same type of creature as a human. Ain't no way. If your GM allows you, though, you can't get much better than the Kelvezu if you're playing an invisible blade. I would recommend the Mindflayer, especially for a duelist. Their physical stats aren't bad (I don't know what yours are), but the intelligence boost is awesome. Please note that this is your permanent intelligence, and so every level, you get additional skill points. The firbolg is easily the second best. Or first. Depending on what your physical stats are (I play a 25 point game, so the mindflayer stats are juicy). You'll need to invent a spell and item for reducing giant, but that ain't so bad.
Maerdash 01-13-05, 03:20 PM	I actually did this in game, transformed myself into an outsider usin a prc then used my polymormpany object spell to become a ghele eladrin just for the fun of it (we were assulting the abyss go figure) i kept the spell in effect for a few sessions, really enjoyed my self and was completely undisturbed when my dm ruled that i didnt gain AS MUCH exp as the rest of the party because i had a small level adjustment(didnt have all those nifty abilities) you dont lose level, but you should gain xp as if you had a level adjustment simply because you ARE more powerful for the time your using the pao no you dont get a level adjustment of any kind for set durations like polymorph, that would be stupid and a druid doesnt get a level adjustment for their wild shape ability because its a CLASS feature enjoy the poa spell your dm will tell you how its gonna work and everyone arguing about it on here instead of awnsering your question is pointless (yes i realize i didnt awnser the question either oh well...)
Seeker95 01-13-05, 04:01 PM	Well, I had started to write a long rebuttal, but realized that since it is not my aim to convince anyone of a position any different than the one they already hold, and have presented my case solidly enough for folks who care to see what position I hold, I chose to delete it. I'm not changing any minds, and unlikely to have my mind changed either.
Horatio 01-14-05, 05:19 AM	Oh, interesting debate, Seeker95. Next time some of the players in my group cast an Energy Immunity spell, I'll giv him +1 LA for that (beeing immune to something usually raises LA by 1 point). And next time the wizard prepares his spells with silent, still and eschew material, I'll give him +2 LA, because he'll essentialy have many spell like abilities (that confers LA too). And why not give all characters +1 LA for every spell on them? And when a barbarian enters rage? LA! Unbalancing stats... Hell, most of the class features deserves LA, not only some spells. I can see. I CAN SEE! Forgive me, but I had to vent this out. If you houserule it, than houserule it, but don't try to convince others, that you are right (some DMs do - and I'm not telling that this is YOUR case - this only for the purpose of showing the thread to the group and say "See? They all agree!" And if they don't agree? Don's show anything.) And to all: Sorry for blatantly useless (mind rarely changes) reply.
DungeonMaster 01-14-05, 10:20 AM	One day, perhaps in the near future, someone, somewhere will balance shapeshifting magic in D&D. Until then these "fixes" that are suggested are fun to discuss but not with the seriousness people are discussing here. Seeker, the idea behind a LA is an interesting houserule, one I hadn't thought of. There are problems with that houserule however, largely because in practice even turning into a firbolg at level 15 really isn't that great. It'll help you, but it's not worth picking up +8 levels and thereby pushing the XP you get from an encounter to negligeable. As a mechanic applying an XP penalty that scales with benefits gained might work but really push comes to shove I think the spell needs some benefit caps. A maximum of +10 to ability scores for instance. I don't think you can turn into an outsider. The text says "functions like polymorph", and in that spell you cannot turn into an outsider. No, PAO allows you to turn anything into an outsider. It's PAO. You can turn a rock into a solar. A pebble doesn't have HD so that restriction is lifted. A pebble doesn't have a type either so the type restrictions are likewise lifted. Making balors out of dretches will help you though by +2 and more. The reality in 3rd edition (and 3.5) is that you, as DM, have to manage what the players and NPCs can and can't polymorph into. It's plain and simple DMing and up to your judgement rather than a rule.
wheatley 01-14-05, 08:08 PM	If your playing a wizard or sorc, or really want the hit points, then a Tulani Eladrin may be better: Tulani body form: +20 natural armour, move speed 40. (Flight is lost as it is only available in the alternate form, which in turn is Su.) Str 20 (+5), Dex 22 (+6), Con 22 (+6), Int 24 (+7). Kelvezu body form: +15 natural armour, move speed 30, might be able to fly 60? It isn't clear if this is an Su ability. Str 21 (+5), Dex 31 (+10), Con 16 (+3), Int 17 (+3). Extraordinary special attacks: Poison, Sneak Attack. Also, the Tulani doesn't look evil, which is probably an advantage for a permanent form, at least in most societies. :) (The Tulani is in BoED.)
Seeker95 01-15-05, 09:09 AM	[QUOTE=Horatio]Oh, interesting debate, Seeker95. Next time some of the players in my group cast an Energy Immunity spell, I'll giv him +1 LA for that (beeing immune to something usually raises LA by 1 point). And next time the wizard prepares his spells with silent, still and eschew material, I'll give him +2 LA, because he'll essentialy have many spell like abilities (that confers LA too). And why not give all characters +1 LA for every spell on them? And when a barbarian enters rage? LA! Unbalancing stats... Hell, most of the class features deserves LA, not only some spells. Energy Immunity spells do not raise LA. A Race with Energy Immunity may have an LA. Still, silent and eschew materials do not raise LA. A Race with spell like abilities may have an LA (the gnome does not). Characters don't need LAs for Class abilities. If they were Race based, you might have a case. Classes are (presumably, but that is a different argument) balanced in relation to each other. Races have no such requirement. LA is a facet by which PCs with more powerful Races can be relatively balanced against those using the Core Races.
Horatio 01-17-05, 04:31 AM	[QUOTE=Horatio]Oh, interesting debate, Seeker95. Next time some of the players in my group cast an Energy Immunity spell, I'll giv him +1 LA for that (beeing immune to something usually raises LA by 1 point). And next time the wizard prepares his spells with silent, still and eschew material, I'll give him +2 LA, because he'll essentialy have many spell like abilities (that confers LA too). And why not give all characters +1 LA for every spell on them? And when a barbarian enters rage? LA! Unbalancing stats... Hell, most of the class features deserves LA, not only some spells. Energy Immunity spells do not raise LA. A Race with Energy Immunity may have an LA. Still, silent and eschew materials do not raise LA. A Race with spell like abilities may have an LA (the gnome does not). Characters don't need LAs for Class abilities. If they were Race based, you might have a case. Classes are (presumably, but that is a different argument) balanced in relation to each other. Races have no such requirement. LA is a facet by which PCs with more powerful Races can be relatively balanced against those using the Core Races. Hello, you really did miss my point, didn't you? Spells = class feature, yet you say, that for some of them to add LA to anyone who uses them. Why not for all of them then? Or just forget my post and ignore me entirely (with exception of the next bracketed sentence), that should sort things out (and believe me, I have nothing against you - I just find your idea a little weird).