Best Forms for 3.5 Alter Self [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Forms for 3.5 Alter Self [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zelc
08-31-03, 10:29 PM Since 3.5 Alter Self requires you to turn into an actually creature with your type (probably Humanoid), what're some of the best Humanoids to turn into and why? Here are some that I came up with:

Aquatic Elf (Monster Manual 3.5):
Swim 40 ft.
Gills: Aquatic Elves can breathe salt water with ease. They can also breathe fresh water, but are fatigued for 10 minutes after doing so. Aquatic Elves can survive out of water for 1 hour per point of Constitution before beginning to suffocate.

Avariel (Races of Faerun):
+4 Spot and Jump
Flight 50 ft. (Average) if not carrying a heavy load, wearing heavy armor, or fatigued or exhausted. They must be able to fully extend their wings

Lizardfolk (Monster Manual 3.5):
+5 Natural Armor
+4 Balance, Swim, and Jump
Racial Bonus Feat (Multiattack? Or do you get to choose any feat?)
Hold Breath

I'll update this post periodically when new creatures are posted.
Tehril
08-31-03, 10:38 PM ^ Those are only available if you have observed those races. I believe that is a requirement of the spell... which seems almost useless aside from being used to disguise yourself...
Zelc
08-31-03, 10:52 PM Originally posted by Tehril
^ Those are only available if you have observed those races. I believe that is a requirement of the spell... which seems almost useless aside from being used to disguise yourself...

Actually, it's never specified in the spell, although I'm guessing any DM worth his salt will probably rule that way. However, it can be fixed with a Knowledge roll, or some clever rollplaying.
Disgruntled Male P Mantis
08-31-03, 10:57 PM The main use of the spell as I see it is to get wings, fins, spider legs, etc.
Zelc
08-31-03, 11:12 PM Originally posted by Disgruntled Male P Mantis
The main use of the spell as I see it is to get wings, fins, spider legs, etc.

Right, however, in 3.5, you have to assume a shape with the same type. So what humanoid forms would be the most advantageous to assume to get those things?
Dauntless
08-31-03, 11:33 PM Trogs give +6 natural AC along with claws and bite.
Fredrik Svanberg
09-01-03, 08:25 AM Bugbear.
God of Pie
09-01-03, 10:22 AM I don't have the 3.5 books but is it possible in 3.0 to only alter certain parts of your body?

things like wings or some large claws (like wolverine's) while retaining the rest of your normal body
Nerfix
09-01-03, 10:26 AM Whatever suits the situation best. It's also handy spell for hiding some strange physical features like tentacles...
Neonsamurai
09-01-03, 10:32 AM Worth a note:

When playing planetouched characters, you are able to assume outsider forms, since you are an outsider with the native subtype.

Thus you can go for Xill for +7 natural armor, 4 arms, natural attacks.

Or Ravid which gives +15 natural armor, though you can't cast spells anymore in this snake-like form.

Also the Ice Mephit is cool, it gives +3 natural armor, small size and fly 50ft(perfect).

This gets pretty insane when using polymorph! Hello hamatula, erinyes, hezrou, cornugon, avoral and whatnot ;)
Mustapha Mond
09-01-03, 11:06 AM I don't have the 3.5 MM, but doesn't Alter Self not allow you to take a creatures "extraordinary special qualities," and doesn't that include things like an aquatic elf's gills? Maybe that's been changed for 3.5.

Anyway, the best use of the spell used to be for getting wings and gills and webbed feet and toes or an extra hand for carrying stuff. Nowadays it doesn't seem much better than Disguise Self.
Zelc
09-01-03, 01:58 PM Neonsamuri: Wow! Cool stuff :D Makes me want to play a planetouched race next time I go sorcerer.

Since many haven't seen 3.5 Alter Self, I'll paste it from the 3.5 SRD.

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.
You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).
You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.
When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

Basically, you do gain flight and swim, but you don't gain stats. You also don't gain more attacks if the new form has more arms than your form does. I'm not sure about the gills, though, but I assumed it'd be part of the physical qualities.
bolobaby
10-19-03, 10:38 PM OK, so here's a question...

Does using Alter Self into Lizard Folk allow the Hold Breath ability?

The wording that makes me think otherwise is: "You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth."

To me, that seems to include "Hold Breath."
Ertai Planeswalker
10-20-03, 04:36 AM Yeah, what constitutes racial and extraprdinary stuf. As in, how do you determine what is granted and whatnot?
Luminous Crayon
10-20-03, 12:48 PM A good question. Some of these seem to be up to the DM's best judgement, since they aren't spelled out item by item. Ideally, a player with this spell should find time before the game session to talk out the details with the DM, deciding what gets included and what doesn't. Nothing bogs down a game session in quite the same way as a heated debate about whether functional gills count as a physical trait or an extraordinary ability.
lukelightning
10-20-03, 01:23 PM Troglodytes are good for their +6 natural armor. Our bard likes to cast alter self and turn into a troglodyte, and then use his hat of disguise to make himself look like his regular self.

Technicallly you don't gain senses or stuff like gills and hold breath ability. The same with polymorph and wild shape. So a druid can turn into a dolphin...that can't hold its breath very long. Or turn into an assassin vine that can't see...or sense anything, for that matter.

In my campaign we've houseruled that for wildshape you get senses and stuff like breathing under water, holding breath, etc. with the understanding that some things are right out (a level 12 druid can wildshape into a phantom fungus...but I don't think he'd get the invisibility ability).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zelc 08-31-03, 10:29 PM	Since 3.5 Alter Self requires you to turn into an actually creature with your type (probably Humanoid), what're some of the best Humanoids to turn into and why? Here are some that I came up with: Aquatic Elf (Monster Manual 3.5): Swim 40 ft. Gills: Aquatic Elves can breathe salt water with ease. They can also breathe fresh water, but are fatigued for 10 minutes after doing so. Aquatic Elves can survive out of water for 1 hour per point of Constitution before beginning to suffocate. Avariel (Races of Faerun): +4 Spot and Jump Flight 50 ft. (Average) if not carrying a heavy load, wearing heavy armor, or fatigued or exhausted. They must be able to fully extend their wings Lizardfolk (Monster Manual 3.5): +5 Natural Armor +4 Balance, Swim, and Jump Racial Bonus Feat (Multiattack? Or do you get to choose any feat?) Hold Breath I'll update this post periodically when new creatures are posted.
Tehril 08-31-03, 10:38 PM	^ Those are only available if you have observed those races. I believe that is a requirement of the spell... which seems almost useless aside from being used to disguise yourself...
Zelc 08-31-03, 10:52 PM	Originally posted by Tehril ^ Those are only available if you have observed those races. I believe that is a requirement of the spell... which seems almost useless aside from being used to disguise yourself... Actually, it's never specified in the spell, although I'm guessing any DM worth his salt will probably rule that way. However, it can be fixed with a Knowledge roll, or some clever rollplaying.
Disgruntled Male P Mantis 08-31-03, 10:57 PM	The main use of the spell as I see it is to get wings, fins, spider legs, etc.
Zelc 08-31-03, 11:12 PM	Originally posted by Disgruntled Male P Mantis The main use of the spell as I see it is to get wings, fins, spider legs, etc. Right, however, in 3.5, you have to assume a shape with the same type. So what humanoid forms would be the most advantageous to assume to get those things?
Dauntless 08-31-03, 11:33 PM	Trogs give +6 natural AC along with claws and bite.
Fredrik Svanberg 09-01-03, 08:25 AM	Bugbear.
God of Pie 09-01-03, 10:22 AM	I don't have the 3.5 books but is it possible in 3.0 to only alter certain parts of your body? things like wings or some large claws (like wolverine's) while retaining the rest of your normal body
Nerfix 09-01-03, 10:26 AM	Whatever suits the situation best. It's also handy spell for hiding some strange physical features like tentacles...
Neonsamurai 09-01-03, 10:32 AM	Worth a note: When playing planetouched characters, you are able to assume outsider forms, since you are an outsider with the native subtype. Thus you can go for Xill for +7 natural armor, 4 arms, natural attacks. Or Ravid which gives +15 natural armor, though you can't cast spells anymore in this snake-like form. Also the Ice Mephit is cool, it gives +3 natural armor, small size and fly 50ft(perfect). This gets pretty insane when using polymorph! Hello hamatula, erinyes, hezrou, cornugon, avoral and whatnot ;)
Mustapha Mond 09-01-03, 11:06 AM	I don't have the 3.5 MM, but doesn't Alter Self not allow you to take a creatures "extraordinary special qualities," and doesn't that include things like an aquatic elf's gills? Maybe that's been changed for 3.5. Anyway, the best use of the spell used to be for getting wings and gills and webbed feet and toes or an extra hand for carrying stuff. Nowadays it doesn't seem much better than Disguise Self.
Zelc 09-01-03, 01:58 PM	Neonsamuri: Wow! Cool stuff :D Makes me want to play a planetouched race next time I go sorcerer. Since many haven't seen 3.5 Alter Self, I'll paste it from the 3.5 SRD. You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components. You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth. You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check. When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form. Basically, you do gain flight and swim, but you don't gain stats. You also don't gain more attacks if the new form has more arms than your form does. I'm not sure about the gills, though, but I assumed it'd be part of the physical qualities.
bolobaby 10-19-03, 10:38 PM	OK, so here's a question... Does using Alter Self into Lizard Folk allow the Hold Breath ability? The wording that makes me think otherwise is: "You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth." To me, that seems to include "Hold Breath."
Ertai Planeswalker 10-20-03, 04:36 AM	Yeah, what constitutes racial and extraprdinary stuf. As in, how do you determine what is granted and whatnot?
Luminous Crayon 10-20-03, 12:48 PM	A good question. Some of these seem to be up to the DM's best judgement, since they aren't spelled out item by item. Ideally, a player with this spell should find time before the game session to talk out the details with the DM, deciding what gets included and what doesn't. Nothing bogs down a game session in quite the same way as a heated debate about whether functional gills count as a physical trait or an extraordinary ability.
lukelightning 10-20-03, 01:23 PM	Troglodytes are good for their +6 natural armor. Our bard likes to cast alter self and turn into a troglodyte, and then use his hat of disguise to make himself look like his regular self. Technicallly you don't gain senses or stuff like gills and hold breath ability. The same with polymorph and wild shape. So a druid can turn into a dolphin...that can't hold its breath very long. Or turn into an assassin vine that can't see...or sense anything, for that matter. In my campaign we've houseruled that for wildshape you get senses and stuff like breathing under water, holding breath, etc. with the understanding that some things are right out (a level 12 druid can wildshape into a phantom fungus...but I don't think he'd get the invisibility ability).