Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Llathos 07-28-05, 03:54 PM	Persistent Spell, Quickened Spell, or Chain spell? Decisions decisions. The idea of persisted buffs are NICE, but frankly kinda overhyped. The party already has an uber DPS barbarian and even with the buffs I'm not sure I could catch him. Plus it's easily dispelled. Quickened is nice for obvious reasons. Firing off in response to spellcasting (quickened silence next to caster), quickened heals + normal heals for extreme recovery. Then there's chain spell. I have little experience with this one, but it seems like it could be really great. Chaining buffs for the whole party, chaining no-save debuffs on the enemies, or chaining utility like Shatter. Seems very flexible. Thoughts?
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 07-28-05, 04:09 PM	Depends on what level your PC is and what direction your wanting to go with the concept/build. From a purely mechanical point of view I would take quickened before anything, then chain, then persistant. At that point most anything can't dispell your stuff. (Barring Beholders and anything else like that.)
tarkin 07-28-05, 04:13 PM	Chain spells unfortunately has a lot of limiations that people overlook. It must be: a spell with a single target a spell with a range greater than touch no creature may be targetted more than once. So no Chained Bull strength, or Chained Invisiblity, or Chained True Strike, or chained Aid. What buffs are you thinking of doing? Persistent either seems not worth it, or seems abusive to me. So I would go with Quicken myself.
Kurama Youko 07-28-05, 04:41 PM	More like Divine Metamagic is just plain tweaked I have no idea how many turning attempts you plan on having but unless its a god awful amount quicken and persistant seem rather expensive.
Llathos 07-28-05, 08:13 PM	For more info, I'm setting up a level 15 cleric. Clr3/Inq3/RSoL9 I'm focused on healing/turning mostly, but of course buffing and general clerical whoopass is also appreciated:) Damn tarkin, you're right...I did overlook that. Brutal limitations... So what IS chaining good for then??
FireAge 07-29-05, 03:00 AM	All I could find in the SRD which jumped out as being usefull: Buffing: Greater Magic Weapon. Offense: Greater Dispel Magic. Silence. Maybe it's better for wizards? Unless you take 1 level of hierophant for divine reach, becaus that way you can use all your touch spells.
Llathos 07-29-05, 10:19 AM	My DM is allowing me to have a metamagic wand of reach spell 32k, 3 times per day. I guess I could use that and combine it with chain. A chained reached buff could work, but again, only 3 times per day. Or, if I really wanted to get nasty, A chained, reached, persisted party buff:)
tarkin 07-29-05, 10:40 AM	That should be a metamagiced ROD of Reach spell, not wand. Also, it is a grey area whether applying a metamagic will qualify a spell for another metamagic. I have not seen an official (Sage/Gen Con/Living City) answer, and have not made up my own mind. Ask your DM before assuming he will let you do that. Chain spell is normally used for attacks, not buffs. As such, a good clerical spell for it is Searing Light.
Llathos 07-29-05, 01:51 PM	Absolutely correct, my mistake. ROD, not wand. I was unclear on the legality of stacking the metamagic effects as far as eligibility went as well...I'll definitely run it by the DM first. Searing light. Good idea. Plays well into the flavor of a RSoL as well. Maybe not 100% intended for buffs, but if I can make it work then all the better:) Thanks for the feedback.
IceFractal 07-29-05, 03:24 PM	Persistant is only worth it if you're using the +4 level version, or you're a total turning machine with lots of nightsticks. However, if you fit those categories you can pull out some nice stuff. Try using it with Lesser/Greater Visage of the Deity - how does the Half-Celestial template for the whole day sound? Spells that only last 1 round/level normally are often the strongest when combined with Persistant, so definitely check those out. Quicken is more useful than Persistant at lower levels, especially if you're a more healing/spellcasting focused, rather than melee focused, Cleric. As mentioned, it's also great for reacting to things. Chain spell, I don't have much experience with, so I can't really say how useful it'll be. However, it only has a +3 adjustment, so in the long run it won't be quite as strong as the others, given that it's closer to what you could normally do without Divine Metamagic. To get the most bang for your buck, you want to be applying the metamagic feats with the biggest adjustment to your highest level spells. Actually, given that Quicken doesn't have any prerequisites, you could get Quicken first, and then Persistant later, if you want to be a real metamagic machine. Invest in lots of Nightsticks though, you'll need them.
Llathos 07-30-05, 12:41 AM	Currently have 21 normal turn attempts and 9 more greater turn attempts from RSoP PrC. I also took the glory domain, which turns one of my "normal" turns into a greater turn, so it's 20 and 10. This is after getting 2 nightsticks. 1 persistent spell takes 1 base + 6 level mod for 7 turn attempts. I can create 3 persistent spell effects and still have 9 more turns for quickened metamagic and actual undead turning... Of course if I read this wrong and the RSoP simply replaces the turns I already had (which isn't clear from the description), then the strategy will have to change considerably.
smrtgmp 07-30-05, 05:20 AM	I actually prefer the domain spontineity feat to divine metamagic. With a little creative tweaking, you can end up with several domains, which translates to several spells of each level that can be cast spontaneously. I'm currently working on a cloistered cleric build that ends up with about 7 domains. He wont be able to cast from all of them spontaneously, but I think I was able to use 6 of them, IIRC. Thats better than a sorcerer (assuming you have enough turn attemps).
Thamior Magus Rex 07-30-05, 08:19 AM	For Divine spells I like Empower and Reach feats since they allow the caster to 1) heal their companions faster & 2) heal them from a distance. I would keep Chain spell for offensive spells like Scorching Ray since it can turn a single-target spell into an area spell.
Kurama Youko 07-30-05, 09:40 AM	I actually prefer the domain spontineity feat to divine metamagic. With a little creative tweaking, you can end up with several domains, which translates to several spells of each level that can be cast spontaneously. I'm currently working on a cloistered cleric build that ends up with about 7 domains. He wont be able to cast from all of them spontaneously, but I think I was able to use 6 of them, IIRC. Thats better than a sorcerer (assuming you have enough turn attemps). You do realize you have to chose a particular domain when you take the Domain Spontaneity Feat. It's not just chose a spell from any one of your domains and spontaneously cast it when you sacrifice a turning attempt. If you had 6 domains that means you would have had to taken that feat 6 times inorder to spontaneously cast any of the spells from that list, barring not all 6 domains had the same spells on them.
Llathos 07-30-05, 11:21 AM	Yeah, I'm already taking feats like extra turning, augmented healing, etc. Taking a handful of divine spont feats to cover my 3 domains (healing, sun, glory) is a bit costly. I might pick up a DS feat next level at 16 to complement things.
Kurama Youko 07-30-05, 12:25 PM	I assume you meant 15th lv.
smrtgmp 07-30-05, 05:30 PM	You do realize you have to chose a particular domain when you take the Domain Spontaneity Feat. It's not just chose a spell from any one of your domains and spontaneously cast it when you sacrifice a turning attempt. If you had 6 domains that means you would have had to taken that feat 6 times inorder to spontaneously cast any of the spells from that list, barring not all 6 domains had the same spells on them.No ****. I can read, ya know? Those Hooked on Phonics tapes you sent me worked like a charm.
Kurama Youko 07-30-05, 07:37 PM	Good, my brother didnt need it anymore and I thought I should pass it on to someone more needing and of course your the first person that came to mind. Seriously if you dont want me to get snippy with you and start just breaking you down over a silly forum where people are always reasserting the rules then dont post or add something to the effect of "Please leave me be, I can't take in form criticism."
Sildatorak 07-30-05, 10:54 PM	Have you considered heighten spell for divine metamagic? Dropping a handful of turn checks into your hold monster means it is super-fun coup de grace time.
Molu Kai 07-31-05, 02:02 AM	Persistent Spell is pretty feat intensive. If you'll have access to a decent amount of gold, you are better off taking Craft Wonderous Item to make continuous use items with your buffing spells.
smrtgmp 07-31-05, 03:06 AM	Good, my brother didnt need it anymore and I thought I should pass it on to someone more needing and of course your the first person that came to mind.Again, thanks. I owe everything to you. Seriously if you dont want me to get snippy with you and start just breaking you down over a silly forum where people are always reasserting the rules then dont post or add something to the effect of "Please leave me be, I can't take in form criticism." I was kidding. Get over it. Or dont, I really dont care. Get as snippy as you want. Though I doubt you'll be "breaking me down" any time soon. And what criticizm did you offer? All you did was assume I didnt know how the feat worked.
Sildatorak 07-31-05, 03:15 AM	Of course if I read this wrong and the RSoP simply replaces the turns I already had (which isn't clear from the description), then the strategy will have to change considerably. Your suspicion is well founded. Greater turning simply makes a regular turn check destroy undead instead of turning them. I didn't notice you were a RSoP earlier or I would have suggested taking domain spontaneity (healing) if your DM agrees that this will turn your spells into domain healing spells (thereby empowering and/or maximizing them depending on your RSoP level).
Shaudes29 07-31-05, 06:36 PM	replace chain with a mass spell. or mass meta magic would be aproprial +4lv probbly based on mass cure light, might be less if using the mass stat bufs are a bassis
Luminosity 08-01-05, 10:46 AM	I vote Heighten. That's pretty hardcore.
tarkin 08-01-05, 11:57 AM	Except that Chain is SUPPOSED to be the Mass metamagic. It's existence is why no one else ever made a Mass metamagic. And the feat Twin spell lets you cast the same spell on a SINGLE extra ally, for a +4 cost. I would probably allow a Mass metamagic feat to work as follows: 1) Increase casting time to 1 minute (Negating use in combat) 2) Allow you to work on +1 extra target/3 caster levels you have. Max of 6 extra targets at 18th level. 3) Costs +5 levels to memorize
Necron99 08-01-05, 03:06 PM	Wow, I can't believe no one has mentioned Divine Metamagic (Persistant) with "Lesser Mass Vigor" from PGtF. The concept dovetails perfectly with the flavor of RSoP, and makes your Cleric into a 24-hour healing machine. Yes, it does take 3 feats (4, if you count the Extra Turning), but you can be doing this by 6th level IIRC.
aelryinth 08-01-05, 03:16 PM	Don't the vigor spells have a stated maximum number of rounds? if so, you can't make them persistent...they'd still expire at the max number of rounds. ==Aelryinth
Necron99 08-01-05, 03:49 PM	I don't have my books here (now that you have me worrying :confused: ), but I think as long as it doesn't "discharge" (i.e. Stoneskin or similar) it should qualify. IIRC it has to have a duration longer than instantaneous, and must have a fixed range or "Personal." Oh, brain cramp BTW - the spell is in CA not PGtF :) If I'm wrong, I got some 'splainin to do :crazy:
Kurama Youko 08-01-05, 04:25 PM	Actually I believe aelryinth is correct, the Spell grants fast healing X 1 round a level to a maximum of 10 rounds.
Necron99 08-01-05, 04:39 PM	Egads, looks like I'm 'splainin. I just checked the FAQ, and looks like that particular combo was dealt with specifically (but I never noticed it before?). Although there is some gray there, I think as a reasonable person I would have to judge Vigor to be disqualified. Bleh. Too bad - it wasn't broken, just handy. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread...
Llathos 08-02-05, 10:16 AM	Hm, I realized I'm fairly confused here. 1) Can someone explain a bit better exactly what I CAN do with a rod of metamagic reach? Can it or can it not be combo'd with Chain Spell? 2) I'm struggling to think of something really good to do with Heighten that I wouldn't achieve by taking Spell Focus. Heighten is only going to increase caster level of the spell so the DC is higher, right?
Sildatorak 08-02-05, 11:27 AM	2) I'm struggling to think of something really good to do with Heighten that I wouldn't achieve by taking Spell Focus. Heighten is only going to increase caster level of the spell so the DC is higher, right? It increases the effective spell level rather (not caster level), so in addition to pumped up save DC's you can also penetrate globes of invulnerability (assuming you pump the spell enough). The main advantage it has over spell focus is that you can apply it to any spell on the fly rather than all spells of a particular school (this might be considered a disadvantage if I worded it differently :)). There is also no cap (other than 9th level spell) on how much you pump the DC with divine heighten, even with SF and GSF you'll only get +2 to the DC. If making spells irresitable is your thing, you can take SF and GSF as well as heighten and divine metamagic.
smrtgmp 08-02-05, 04:07 PM	1) Can someone explain a bit better exactly what I CAN do with a rod of metamagic reach? Can it or can it not be combo'd with Chain Spell? It cannot be combined with chain spell. The reason for this is simple. Chain spell works on targeted spells, and a reach spell is a ranged touch attack. Ranged touch attacks do not have targets, they have an effect. That that effect targets an individual is irrelivent from a game mechanics standpoint. Hope that helps.
Luminosity 08-03-05, 02:37 AM	Back that up with a quote, because it sounds like a big load to me.
MystErikEry 08-03-05, 05:59 AM	Back that up with a quote, because it sounds like a big load to me. Note that all ray-type spells have an Effect: Ray, and not a Target. Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell. [...] Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile it can move regardless of the spell’s range. Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature you’re aiming at. As you can see, Effect: Ray and Target: (whatever) are two mutually exclusive abilities. "Reach Spell" says: Benefit: You may cast a spell that normally has a range of touch at any distance up to 30 feet. The spell effectively becomes a ray, so you must succeed at a ranged touch attack to bestow the spell upon the recipient. A reach spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level. So it looks like it changes the Range to "30 feet" and changes Target to "Effect: Ray"... So it no longer affects a Target, but instead has a ray effect, which then hits a target, which is not quite the same thing, mechanically. Repeat Spell on a Range Spell will create another ray a round later, originating from where you were last round to wherever you attacked last round, hitting whoever is there after that.