Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wonton2006 04-17-06, 10:14 AM	Okay, so, I'm planning on getting Polymorph as my sorcerer's 4th level spell, simply because it is so versatile. I was wondering what are the best simple combat buffs out there, such as for when I run out of good spells, when I fight a golem of some sorts, or when there's something with incredibly high SR. Remember, 8HD cap at 8th level, and you gain Ex. special attacks, but not abilities.
The_Blob 04-17-06, 11:41 AM	I'm assuming that your character is just now 8th lvl, so your choices limited somewhat. Troglodytes are pretty cool with stench, good natural armor, & humanoid form so you can still use equipment. War trolls USED to be the the total shiznit for polymorph for their HD, but I'm not so sure now. Behirs are nice at 9HD with a slew of (Ex) attacks, good natural armor, high strength, reach, climb speed & HUGE size. Bulettes are nice for many of the same reasons. Ogres, Centaurs, Bugbears, small Dragons, Trolls, Dire Ape, Dire Bear (12HD), Dire Lion, Dire Wolf, all good choices IMO. There are SO many choices, situational and general, you have to find the ones YOU want.
Witch 04-17-06, 11:42 AM	If you're going to focus on Polymorph, grab the Assume Supernatural Ability feats. They rock.
The_WhiteRabbit 04-17-06, 04:06 PM	Okay, so, I'm planning on getting Polymorph as my sorcerer's 4th level spell, simply because it is so versatile. I was wondering what are the best simple combat buffs out there, such as for when I run out of good spells, when I fight a golem of some sorts, or when there's something with incredibly high SR. Remember, 8HD cap at 8th level, and you gain Ex. special attacks, but not abilities. Have you got a familiar? If so, be sure to share your polymorph spell with it, so suddenly there are TWO big bad monsterous things. Just keep in mind that it must be within 5' of you, or it goes back to normal. Trolls are a pretty good combat form--good abilities and some decent combat potential. A megaraptor is a size huge dinosaur that's fast (speed 60!), 8 HD with a nice attack routine, pounce and a 10' reach.
malignor 04-17-06, 04:42 PM	Keep in mind that you likely only have knowledge - arcana. That being the case, you would only have knowledge of the capabilities and powers of constructs (which you can't polymorph into), magical beasts and dragons. Even if you met a creature, you can only perform what extraordinary abilities you witnessed, or have been explained to you by other people (or books). For example, the party ranger or druid can probably teach you about some giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, animals, fey and vermin (they have knowledge - nature). With that in mind, knowledge arcana still gives you knowledge enough to become a Hydra or a Wyvern, which are two of my faves. Hydras get all those attacks, plus good armor. Wyverns can still speak (allowing casting of some spells) plus flight, good armor, plenty of attacks and a poisonous stinger. If you want fast flight speed and full spellcasting ability go for an 8 HD Dragon of your choice. One magical beast form that is also great is the Aranea, which allows for small size and 50' movement (humanoid form), or for web and poisonous bites (hybrid form), both of which allow full spellcasting and equipment use, plus some nice skill bonuses (and a climb speed of 25). Other good forms for specific uses are the Ankheg (burrow speed, acid spittle, improved grab), Digester (60' movement, good acid spray attacks), Girallon (claw/claw/claw/claw/rend, 40' move/climb), Griffon (flying charge/pounce of bite/claw/claw/rake/rake), Krenshar (tracking ability), Remorhaz (burrow speed, huge size+imroved grab+swallow whole, great natural AC), Spider Eater (paralysis poison, IMPLANT - your DM may allow this), Stirge (fly, tiny, con drain), Winter Wolf (trip)
allenchan 04-17-06, 06:28 PM	(Snip) This is all house rules. You must be confusing Polymorph with Wildshape, from which a Druid must know the creature they want to turn into. Polymorph has no such limitations. To the OP; Treants are awesome, since you get the Plant type, you get tons of immunities along with a solid reach and grapple checks. I solo'd a mindflayer at level 7, was hawt. 9 HD gives Cave Trolls, and later at 12 War Trolls. Both excellent choices.
Fargren 04-17-06, 07:11 PM	Annis Hag is also great.
tiercel 04-17-06, 08:22 PM	People tend to look at giant forms for one simple reason: being humanoid in shape, you get to retain all your equipment. If you turn into a hydra, most all your equipment is going to "meld" and become nonfunctional. If you turn into a troll/hill giant/stone giant, you can do everything you could before (thanks to equipment), including continued spellcasting, plus you have the benefits (natural armor, physical ability scores, martial weapon proficiency due to Giant type) of being a giant. Much of the time, a giant form with all your equipment works out to be better than a monstrous form which has none of your equipment. This is one of the things that makes polymorph stupidly good -- you can get a wide range of large benefits for no cost besides casting the spell. Even if polymorph could only ever turn you into a normal troll, it would be easily well worth a 4th level spell slot. That polymorph can turn you into all manner of other creatures, and scales up in power with the caster level, potentially with non-humanoid caster type, and with the number of monster supplements allowed in the game, makes it just that much more powerful. Handle with care.
malignor 04-17-06, 10:27 PM	This is all house rules. You must be confusing Polymorph with Wildshape, from which a Druid must know the creature they want to turn into. Polymorph has no such limitations. To the OP; Treants are awesome, since you get the Plant type, you get tons of immunities along with a solid reach and grapple checks. I solo'd a mindflayer at level 7, was hawt. 9 HD gives Cave Trolls, and later at 12 War Trolls. Both excellent choices.I'll keep that in mind. I can go to any book and pick out a monster, or go to SS and make my own. Just load it up with extraordinary special attacks and massive stats, but keep the HD to 8 or less.
smrtgmp 04-18-06, 02:13 AM	This is all house rules. You must be confusing Polymorph with Wildshape, from which a Druid must know the creature they want to turn into. Polymorph has no such limitations.And how, pray tell, can you turn into something if you have no idea it exists?
JulesCARV 04-18-06, 03:33 AM	And how, pray tell, can you turn into something if you have no idea it exists? Personally, I think of it more as "assuming properties useful to the spellcaster" than "imitating a given creature." For example, a sorceror may never have run across a troglodyte, but that doesn't mean that she couldn't come up with the idea of making her skin thick and tough. I realize that this isn't exactly how the spell is written, but it makes sense to me *shrugs*. Of course, when using polymorph for disguise purposes, the spellcaster really does imitate the given creature, and not just try to give herself useful properties, but I can't think of a situation in which you'd want to disguise yourself with polymorph and not know what you're disguising yourself as looks like.
Vaelan 04-18-06, 03:47 AM	The CO board has compiled a handy list of Polymorph forms that have been deemed optimal. You may find it lacking as it focuses to an undesirable extent upon Outsiders and their impressive qualities, but here it is... The 3.5 Polymorph Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=175846) Since I'm feeling particularly generous, I will save you the effort of clicking the link for now, but I would suggest that you bookmark or otherwise take note of this thread for future reference. Level 8: standard: Umber Hulk; Aberration; Large; Reach 10’; STR 23, DEX 13, CON 19; NA +8; Other Benefits: Burrow 10’, 2 Claws (2d4) & 1 Bite (2d8), Multiattack Feat, Listen +11; source: mm page 248-249 Hydra; Beast; Huge; Face/Reach 20 ft/10 ft; Str 19; Dex 12; Con 20; NA +9; Benefits: 8 heads/attacks, 20ft. swim, Combat Reflexes; Source 3.0 MM p.121-122 Digester: Magical Beast, medium, Face/Reach: 5ft/5ft, NA+5, str 17, dex 15, con 17, +4 hide, jump, Acid Spray(ex): 20ft cone (4d8 acid damage) or 5ft line (8d8 acid damage), reflex 17 halves, MM59 outsider: Lupinal, Outsider (good, guardinal), Medium, 5 by 5/5, Str 23 Dex 20 Con 13, NA +3, MM2 Warden Archon, Outsider (archon, extraplanar, good, lawful), Large, 10/10, Str 27 Dex 11 Con 17, NA +12, BED Armadon Formian, NA+15, large, movement 40ft, str 22, dex 13, con 19, Acid Spray: 20ft burst, 3d8 acid damage, reflex DC17 halves, Augmented Critical: 17-20 / x2, Poison: Injury, Fort DC18, 1d6 STR / 1d6 STR, FiendFolio Palrethee, Outsider(evil), NA+10, medium, str 19, dex 16, con 16, Demonic Burn: On succesful melee attack, target must save DC 17 reflex or catch fire for 1d4 rounds, MM2
allenchan 04-18-06, 04:44 AM	And how, pray tell, can you turn into something if you have no idea it exists? Because the RAW doesn't state you have to know it exists, unlike Wildshape, which specificly makes note of it.
Witch 04-18-06, 06:52 AM	A person likely to polymorph would probably just find a book and look up what are useful forms anyway.
malignor 04-18-06, 10:06 AM	Well if you can just browse through whatever books you want and turn into it, and it doesn't matter if you know if it exists or not, and it likely doesn't matter if it's in your world or not, I say the best thing to Polymorph into is this. Ultr@ 133t h@xx0r pwnz u @11 lolz!!111!1one!1eleven Size/Type: Diminutive Monstrous Humanoid Hit Dice: 4d10 (210 hp) Initiative: +16 Speed: 120 ft. (8 squares) fly 200 ft, burrow 30 ft, climb 60 ft Armor Class: 76 (+12 Dex, +50 natural, +4 size), touch 26, flatfooted 64 Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+28 Attack: Claw +20 (1d3+12) Full Attack: +20/20 Claw (1d3+12) and +18 Bite (1d2+6 plus poison) Space/Reach: 5 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: Resize Limbs, Rend, Improved Grab, Poison Special Qualities: none Saves: Fort +15, Ref +15, Will +2 Abilities: Str 34, Dex 34, Con 34, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 4 Skills: +4,654,368,963 (plus -1 to +14 from stat bonuses) all skills Feats: Ability Focus (poison, bonus), Acrobatic (bonus), Agile (bonus), Alertness (bonus), Athletic (bonus), Blind-Fight (bonus), Combat Reflexes (bonus), Dodge (bonus), Mobility (bonus), Spring Attack (bonus), Endurance (bonus), Diehard (bonus), Great Fortitude (bonus), Improved Critical (claws; bonus), Improved Critical (bite; bonus), Improved Initiative (bonus), Iron Will (bonus), Lightning Reflexes (bonus), Multiattack (bonus), Power Attack (bonus), Cleave (bonus), Great Cleave (bonus), Improved Bull Rush (bonus), Improved Overrun (bonus), Improved Sunder (bonus), Run (bonus), Stealthy (bonus), Toughness (x50, bonus), Track (bonus), Weapon Finesse (bonus), Weapon Focus (claws, bonus), Weapon Focus (bite, bonus) Environment: My head Organization: Imaginary Challenge Rating: 27 Treasure: None Alignment: Usually neutral Advancement: - Level Adjustment: - Resize Limbs (Ex): Limbs are able to grow to large size, which provides the bonuses to trips, grapples, bull rushes and so forth. Rend (Ex): When both claws hit, rend for 1d3+18 Improved Grab (Ex): On sucessful claw hit, free grapple check w/ no attack of opportunity. Poison (Ex): Fort DC 22 (10+2viaHD+12viaCon+2viaFeat), 12d8 con primary and secondary effects. Skill Bonuses: gets +4,654,368,965 racial bonus to all skill checks.
Witch 04-18-06, 10:42 AM	I meant the character. There are libraries. There are descriptions of monsters and their abilities there. If he says he's specifically looking for creatures to polymorph into, he'll find a lot.
smrtgmp 04-18-06, 11:06 AM	Because the RAW doesn't state you have to know it exists, unlike Wildshape, which specificly makes note of it.Yeah, thats great. IN CHARACTER, how can you assume the form of something if you dont know it exists? You would have no idea where to start, or what abilities a given creature would have that you could take advantage of.
Bukowski 04-18-06, 11:26 AM	Well if you can just browse through whatever books you want and turn into it, and it doesn't matter if you know if it exists or not, and it likely doesn't matter if it's in your world or not, I say the best thing to Polymorph into is this. Ultr@ 133t h@xx0r pwnz u @11 lolz!!111!1one!1eleven And the reason why no sane DM lets his players use Polymorph unchecked just because they start their RAW chant. A house rule that's worked pretty well so far is this: The caster must make a relevant Knowledge check with a DC of 10 + the desired form's HD, with a +5 competence bonus if he's actually encountered the creature. If he fails, he cannot attempt to assume that form until increasing said Knowledge skill by at least one rank. The DM has the right to restrict any form that does not exist in his campaign world.
malignor 04-18-06, 11:55 AM	And the reason why no sane DM lets his players use Polymorph unchecked just because they start their RAW chant. A house rule that's worked pretty well so far is this: The caster must make a relevant Knowledge check with a DC of 10 + the desired form's HD, with a +5 competence bonus if he's actually encountered the creature. If he fails, he cannot attempt to assume that form until increasing said Knowledge skill by at least one rank. The DM has the right to restrict any form that does not exist in his campaign world.Actually, that's not really a house rule. That's the description of a Knowledge Check. The houserule part is (and I think it's a solid houserule) the +5 if you've encountered the creature.KNOWLEDGE (INT; TRAINED ONLY) Below are listed typical fields of (creature) study. Arcana (constructs, dragons, magical beasts) Dungeoneering (aberrations, oozes) Local (humanoids) Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin) Religion (undead) The planes (outsiders, elementals) Check: In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.Looks familiar? I think your gaming group is right on the money for this. Mine is very similar (though we only give +2 if they met the creature). I just threw that rediculous monster up there because there were claims that "any polymorpher can polymorph into any creature form, known or unknown, within the HD limit". The real problem is that there are restrictions, and they exist for a reason. Furthermore those restrictions should have some real value to them, like no templates (as per Alter Self, the root of Polymorph), no undead and no outsiders (unless the polymorpher is undead or an outsider - can always polymorph into same type), to list a few. Now suppose a sorcerer grew up in a very sheltered environment. Suppose he never knew of any form but human. Books, nor stories, nor personal encounters nor Knowledge skills have illuminated him to the concept that there exist other forms. He gets Polymorph as a spell. What can he turn into? The answer is "human", though some of you claim "anything in the multiverse!". No, he can only turn into an average human (male, female, different coloring, etc). Now suppose he sees a picture of a Dwarf. Great. Now maybe he can take that form... does he magically get different stats and stonecutting racial bonuses against certain monsters just by looking at the picture? Some of you claim "Of course! He can be anything in the multiverse!" If I could turn into anything just by looking at it and get access to all the strange and non-obvious abilities, I don't even NEED knowledge checks to identify most creatures anymore. I could spend the next few days just polymorphing my way from Aboleth to Ythak and then listing their strength, dexterity, constitution, natual armor, HD and extraordinary special attacks. That is a perfectly logical conclusion that can be drawn from the "no need for knowledge" proposal. "I see a wierd creature (a Remorhaz)... okay, what can it do? I know, I'll just polymorph into one and look at my character sheet!" No. Polymorph is not divination.
Nausicaa 04-18-06, 02:16 PM	Full Attack: +20/20 Claw (1d3+12) and +18 Bite (1d2+6 plus poison) I think you could go for a 2 Claws +20, Bite +18, 2 Wings +18 and Tail Slap +18.. or better, all attacks @ BAB +20 with improved multiattack :lol
The_WhiteRabbit 04-18-06, 02:45 PM	And the reason why no sane DM lets his players use Polymorph unchecked just because they start their RAW chant. A house rule that's worked pretty well so far is this: The caster must make a relevant Knowledge check with a DC of 10 + the desired form's HD, with a +5 competence bonus if he's actually encountered the creature. If he fails, he cannot attempt to assume that form until increasing said Knowledge skill by at least one rank. The DM has the right to restrict any form that does not exist in his campaign world. The problem I have with this is that it grossly favors wizards over sorcerers. Wizards have ALL knowledge skills as class skills, and are intelligence based casters--so their intelligence is already going to be their highest ability. By putting a few of those extra skill ranks into various knowledge skills (and taking 20 on the checks during downtime), a wizard will always be able to change into whatever he wants, while a sorcerer is going to be screwed. Polymorph CAN'T turn you into something without giving you all of its appropriate abilities--whether you know about them or not. It's the way the spell is written. Just like it can't turn you into a troll that's stronger or weaker than the average troll, it can't turn you into a troll that doesn't have a bite, two claw attacks, the ability to rend and natural armor. Or a troll that isn't size large, unless you turn into a different kind of troll.
JulesCARV 04-18-06, 03:57 PM	I think of it this way: a sorceror might say, "I want to grow really thick, tough, scaly skin and some claws without generally altering my body type." This is a reasonable, logical use of polymorph. One might not know every creature with this type of body plan, but you can still want to grow claws, scaly, thick skin, etc. The thing is, a sorceror never needs to have even heard of a troglodyte to think of that. All he needs to know about are, for instance, mundane crocodiles. Maybe not even that. That, however, isn't quite how the polymorph spell works: it works by assuming the form of a different creature in the monster manual, such as a troglodyte. However, I think that this is mainly a simplification and an attempt at balancing. Obviously, saying, "add however much natural armor you want" would be unbalanced. Having a more detailed system, in which wings cost a certain amount (dependent on fly speed and maneuverability), being aquatic cost a certain amount, natural armor cost a certain amount per point of bonus, size cost a certain amount, natural attacks cost a certain amount, etc, would be too complicated. It would practically be a magical school of its own, not a single spell. So I think it makes more sense to think of a sorceror as saying, "I'm going to transform myself into a big, tough, strong, thick-skinned creature" than say "I'm going to transform myself into a hill giant." Because creating a system which balanced various specific features would be too difficult, they say that you're polymorphing into another creature, but really it's more like giving yourself specific faetures.
Wonton2006 04-18-06, 06:50 PM	Thanks for the input. By the way, is there a size restriction on Polymorph? It says that you can't become smaller than fine, but, nothing about being gargantuan or colossal. Alter self, however says, that it has to be within one category of you. Does this still apply?
Osedox 04-18-06, 10:15 PM	By the way, is there a size restriction on Polymorph? It says that you can't become smaller than fine, but, nothing about being gargantuan or colossal. Alter self, however says, that it has to be within one category of you. Does this still apply? This confused me as well when i was building myself a Master Transmogrifist. However because it doesent explicitly state that there is a size restriction in Polymorph, Im sure you could assume that there isnt. Which in my book just sounds like a self munchkin-izing justification tactic :rolleyes: .
Vaelan 04-18-06, 10:23 PM	By the way, is there a size restriction on Polymorph? The primary restriction is the hitdie cap. You won't find a 15 hitdie creature larger than Huge.
malignor 04-19-06, 11:18 AM	The problem I have with this is that it grossly favors wizards over sorcerers. Wizards have ALL knowledge skills as class skills, and are intelligence based casters--so their intelligence is already going to be their highest ability. By putting a few of those extra skill ranks into various knowledge skills (and taking 20 on the checks during downtime), a wizard will always be able to change into whatever he wants, while a sorcerer is going to be screwed.A sorcerer still has knowledge - arcana, which allows for dragons and magical beasts. Some of the best forms are magical beasts (Aranea, Hydra, Griffon, Remorhaz) or Dragons (incluing Wyverns, one of my faves). Read my post #5 above. Aside from that, they can always consult a wizard or bard or book on "ye olde study upon monstres".
swindy 04-19-06, 02:13 PM	The hydra HAS to be the best in any normal situation. At the moment i can get a 9 headed hydra. The best thing about it is the amount of attacks you get, and its amazing grapple with such heads. Thanks to me grappling two mummies, we absolutley creamed 'em. Just the sheer amount of attacks without pelnalty as well is just awesome! Pinned both mummies making them prone and still attacking with the rest of the heads plus your team mates smacking them around too. And the extremely fast healing. Hydra most of the way!
mvincent 04-19-06, 02:36 PM	Okay, so, I'm planning on getting Polymorph as my sorcerer's 4th level spell, simply because it is so versatile. I was wondering what are the best simple combat buffs out thereThis thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=175846) can help you. For simplicity though, the Hydra works well for just about any level that you'll be using this.
swindy 04-19-06, 05:29 PM	The hydra is just the best for simplicity itslef. 8+ grapple checks a turn, combat reflexes plus 26 dexterity is the only real way to stop a hydra from grappling you. But as the hydra, you can take on multiple enemies with no pelnalties is just great. He is the greatest. Cos once pinned, and if you keep em pinned, they're pretty much pwned by all the extra attacks you get whilst he/she/it is prone. I do love the hydra.
smrtgmp 04-19-06, 07:50 PM	While the hydra is a good form for someone who is otherwise melee inept, I have found that some of the powerful humanoid shaped forms make better buffs for your allies. The trolls in MM 3 are pretty badass in this department, as they will allow the target to retain their gear and make full use of all their feats and the like.
mvincent 04-19-06, 08:11 PM	While the hydra is a good form for someone who is otherwise melee inept, I have found that some of the powerful humanoid shaped forms make better buffs for your allies.The hydra is also a good form for your rogue (i.e. sneak attacks x12)
smrtgmp 04-19-06, 08:13 PM	Quite true. I like the flying, improved invisible hydra rogue. Very nasty.
Witch 04-20-06, 05:51 AM	A few other forms, if you get Assume Supernatural Ability: Choker - Quickness: say hello to 3.0 Haste Lesser Dusk Giant from Heroes of Horror. This thing is horridly strong. Beholder - all eye stalks with 1 feat? Great! There's more, but still, this is great.
swindy 04-20-06, 01:10 PM	Can you use a pyro/cryo hydra's breath weapon. From earlier i saw the use of a digester and thats pretty much the same. So can you? I would also like to retract the statement earlier about the hydra's fast healing. We don't get it do we :weep: Oh well.
Witch 04-20-06, 01:16 PM	Master Transmogrifists get it.
mvincent 04-20-06, 01:34 PM	Can you use a pyro/cryo hydra's breath weaponNope. From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#breathWeapon): "Breath weapons are supernatural abilities except where noted." From earlier i saw the use of a digester and thats pretty much the same. That's an extraordinary ability.
Subedei 04-20-06, 01:57 PM	Dragonhawk!