Best save-or-dies for a wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best save-or-dies for a wizard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Friendlyfish
09-05-06, 05:28 PM I'm just curious as to what the best save-or-dies are for a wizard. I have played a telepath and though they have a nice, cruel array of save-or-dies, they're mostly mind-affecting and half the monsters aren't affected.

I hear a lot of talk about how a wizard should specialize in the best save-or-dies possible, and how hp-damage is passe' considering the resident barbarian or melee cleric beast doles that out in startling amounts.

List some of your favorites here of all levels. I also say save-or-die loosely; if it paralyzes, stuns or otherwise removes the enemy from the battle, it's as good as dead anyway, somebody in the party will come by and lop its head off presently.
Novacat
09-05-06, 06:17 PM "Best" is defined by the measure of effectiveness. In the case of save-or-die spells, the measure of effectiveness really comes down to what type of save is allowed and what kind of creature you're using it on. For instance, casting a fortitude-based save-or-die has very little chance of affecting the fighter, who by that time will easily have a +12 saving bonus or better. Similarly, hitting a cleric with a Feeblemind spell (Will save) is even less likely to be effective, because not only to they get good will save bonuses, but wisdom is a primary ability score for them. So the "best" save-or-die spell is whatever is the most likely to affect your desired target. As a minor consideration, some save-or-die spells also deal a little damage even on a successful save, and that's a nice little treat.

The premise, however, I must contest. Save-or-die spells always allow a save (by definition, and by necessity of balance), and as both the party and the monsters progress, you'll find that it far easier to enhance your save bonuses than it is to enhance your saving DCs (for example, compare the price of a Cloak of Resistance +5 to any of the mental score boosting items). Items, HD, feats... it would be hard to NOT have great saves by higher levels. The key to high-level casting is protection spells, escape spells, and spells (especially damage spells) which to not allow saves at all. Forcecage, Evard's Black Tentacles, and Meteor Swarm are personal favorites of mine for the following reasons:

Forcecage: No save, no SR. This spell with hold any non-caster enemy while we deal with their magical support. Only Disintegrate or trans-dimensional magic will take this down.

Evard's Black Tentacles: No save, no SR. This spell is my answer to enemy casters, as well as the smaller, less muscular melee types. While this doesn't completely disable them, it is a great pain for any caster, as most spells cannot be cast while grappling.

Meteor Swarm: No save, SR allowed. In the end, most big bad guys are just that: big. Their touch AC usually sucks, and between two feats (Spell Penetration, and Greater), you have a very good chance against any reasonable SR. Hitting with a touch attack SHOULD be cake, and the 36d6 damage this spell can deal out will cause ANY barbarian to at least flinch.

Summary: My casting philosophy is that while most casters should start out as blasters, it's just too much trouble to remain effective in this way. Once you start approaching 10th level and higher, casting really becomes about controlling the battlefield, not just killing.
mvincent
09-05-06, 06:56 PM I'm just curious as to what the best save-or-dies are for a wizard.Typically enchantments (since many can even turn your enemies into allies):
1st: Sleep
2nd: Hideous Laughter
3rd: Deep Slumber
4th: Charm Monster
5th: Dominate Person
Vanigo
09-05-06, 10:51 PM I'm rather fond of flesh to stone, simply because so little is immune to it. Of course, it's not much good without some decent enervation action, but that holds true for any save-or-die.
joseccb
09-05-06, 10:52 PM This is a topic that I've been researching a lot, because I play a Wiz char...
There are large amount of save or die spells, different flavors, different conditions and different type of spells.

Most of them either allow Will saving throw or Fortitude saving throw, while few allow for Reflex save. Agreeing to what Novacat says, the definition of "Best" is defined by the measure of effectiveness. However, there is not a single spell neither a group of save or die spells that totally outshines all other. It is just a matter of knowing which spell to use on which opponent. Like Novacat said it wouldn't be wise to use Feeblemind on a Cleric, like it would BE nice to use Phantasmal Killer on a Rogue.

After using several spells, I realized that effectiveness is mostly what can define how good can a spell be. However, is not that easy, I later realized that there is also a very important factor: What limitations does the spell have from working?? Speaking more clearly, what is the range or percentage of monsters that are inmune or not likely to be affected by such spell?? The wider the viability of using the spell is, the better the spell becomes. Having the versatility to use a spell on very diverse and different creatures is probably one of the most powerful tools.

Hold Person is a very good spell without a doubt, but remember that all non-humanoid creatures won't be elegible for this one. Also spells that have "mind affecting", "fear", "death", etc etc... won't be useful at all against creatures that are simply inmune to each correspondent effect.

So, finding spells that can target basically any, and are most likely to work on large varieties of creatures is really useful when dettermining the range of best save or die spells.

Some useful save or die spells can be (I put some NO save and die too, cause I think they are better):

Maze: No save and die, ONLY if cast on the right target. Basically you get rid for the rest of the encounter of a creature with low INT, that is a threat to your party. Even when facing one single opponent, as long as he has low int, this could be a killer because of all the time you have to prepare yourself when the creature returns. And boy there are large amount of low INT monsters to face.

Otto's Irresistible Dance: Unfortunately I prefer Otto's ID way better than maze. It is also a NO save and die spell, just read it...

Wrathful Castigation: I also love this spell, it is a save twice or die spell. It is a very convinient spell.

Flesh to Stone: Also mentioned, and if you want a "heightened version" use Glass Strike, both are good and viable...

Feeblemind: Save or die against the right target, casting it on fighters would be stupid, but against int or cha based spellcasters even though the spell doesn't slay them I consider it a save or die. On top of that the DC is theorically higher against arcane spellcasters (I say theorically because it is not the DC that is higher, its the opponent that gets the penalty)

Finger of Death: This is the classic save or die spell, I cannot say I'm a big fan of this spell but it is a very common spell that people like.

Baleful Polymorph: Very good and also one of the most common save or die spells. It is good due to the fact of the versatility of the spell (Its not a death effect, not a mind affecting, etc etc.), it has the flaw that on a fail it DOESN't make the creature totally worthless and the flaw that it doesn't affect incorporeal creatures.

Forcecage: Great spell, Novacat mentioned it.

Weird: I love this spell, It's the sweeter version of phantasmal killer, and affecting several creatures is what I like the most of this spell, you'll be likely to kill at least few of em'.

Wrack: My gish had this one, as well as a wounding greatsword, they both did the trick :D

There are several more, right now I can't recall, will write later...
SageBahamut
09-05-06, 11:00 PM You might consider the Ray of <insert godawfulness> and Power Word <insert godawfulness> families. Both are no-save (except for certain of the Rays) and while they're not autokills usually, they're sometimes the next best thing, especially if you're expecting a drawn-out battle. (Power Word: Pain can be /ridiculous/ in the right circumstances, and it's level 1.)
Disintegrate is a classic and one of those damage-even-on-a-save spells that Novacat mentioned, and they are indeed tasty. Planeshift can be a save-or-die if done right. (Elemental Plane of Fire, anyone?)
Pretty much all the others I know of offhand people have mentioned already.
Optimator
09-06-06, 04:11 AM Frostfell (I think), from Frostburn is SICK. Targets in one 20x20x20 foot cube per level save or die (Flesh to Ice), and if they succeed, up to 20d6 cold damage. SR applies, though.
bitnine
09-06-06, 08:34 AM Meteor Swarm: No save, SR allowed. In the end, most big bad guys are just that: big. Their touch AC usually sucks, and between two feats (Spell Penetration, and Greater), you have a very good chance against any reasonable SR. Hitting with a touch attack SHOULD be cake, and the 36d6 damage this spell can deal out will cause ANY barbarian to at least flinch.Blazing berserker ftw? ;)
Kimokeo
09-06-06, 01:45 PM Any spell will do, it's the DC you need to look at.

Heighten Spell - adjust the spell level to get a higher DC.
Spell Focus - up the DC
There are some PrC's that increase their specific school's DC.
Ability Score - increase it always with level increases.

My favorite: Start you character off as Venerable.
Sure you take a hit -6 on Str/Dex/Con.
But you get +3 to Int/Wis/Chr.

1st level, say a 18 Int. +3 = 21. That's a +5 to start to your DC's.
At 4th level, the stat goes 22. That's +6 to the DC.

Use Fox's Cunning - +4 to Int = +2 more to the DC.

So, at 5th level mage, I have a Heightened Spell of 3rd level. Starting DC 13. With Fox's Cunning and normal Int = +8. DC is now 21. Spell Focus & Greater +2 more is DC 23.

A 5th character carries a +5 save. So, that's an 18 on the roll needed before adding any other bonuses.

This is a lot of work for a DC that is passable. Relying heavily on saving throws from opponents is a matter of finding more pluses and giving them some negatives.

Makes blasting power an easier choice (Empower/Maximize come to mind)

I prefer the Web spell for a save spell. Even if you save, you're still entangled for a little while.
RobbyPants
09-06-06, 01:56 PM I may be remembering a 3.0 definition of the spell and not the 3.5, but Cloudkill can be great against many weak opponents. If I remember correctly, 1-3 HD creatures don't even get a save! It loses its abilities quickly as the opponents gain HD, but I'm throwing it in here because it has its uses.

:ghosted:
bave
09-06-06, 02:10 PM The best for core are:

3rd-Phantasmal Killer (the only one)
4rth-Otiluke's Sphere (not fatal, but out of combat indefinetly, unless has teleportation capabilities)
5th-Baleful Polymorph (first true save or die IMO, fort)
6th-Disintegrate (better than Flesh to Stone, more versality, less immunity, damage even if successful, ranged touch attack, fort or 2d6 per level, 5d6 on save)
7th-Forcecage. Finger of Death is no better than Flesh to Stone or Dis. except 1 point higher on the save, but also easily beatable as it is a death effect/necromancy (aka: death ward).

After that its really moot.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Friendlyfish 09-05-06, 05:28 PM	I'm just curious as to what the best save-or-dies are for a wizard. I have played a telepath and though they have a nice, cruel array of save-or-dies, they're mostly mind-affecting and half the monsters aren't affected. I hear a lot of talk about how a wizard should specialize in the best save-or-dies possible, and how hp-damage is passe' considering the resident barbarian or melee cleric beast doles that out in startling amounts. List some of your favorites here of all levels. I also say save-or-die loosely; if it paralyzes, stuns or otherwise removes the enemy from the battle, it's as good as dead anyway, somebody in the party will come by and lop its head off presently.
Novacat 09-05-06, 06:17 PM	"Best" is defined by the measure of effectiveness. In the case of save-or-die spells, the measure of effectiveness really comes down to what type of save is allowed and what kind of creature you're using it on. For instance, casting a fortitude-based save-or-die has very little chance of affecting the fighter, who by that time will easily have a +12 saving bonus or better. Similarly, hitting a cleric with a Feeblemind spell (Will save) is even less likely to be effective, because not only to they get good will save bonuses, but wisdom is a primary ability score for them. So the "best" save-or-die spell is whatever is the most likely to affect your desired target. As a minor consideration, some save-or-die spells also deal a little damage even on a successful save, and that's a nice little treat. The premise, however, I must contest. Save-or-die spells always allow a save (by definition, and by necessity of balance), and as both the party and the monsters progress, you'll find that it far easier to enhance your save bonuses than it is to enhance your saving DCs (for example, compare the price of a Cloak of Resistance +5 to any of the mental score boosting items). Items, HD, feats... it would be hard to NOT have great saves by higher levels. The key to high-level casting is protection spells, escape spells, and spells (especially damage spells) which to not allow saves at all. Forcecage, Evard's Black Tentacles, and Meteor Swarm are personal favorites of mine for the following reasons: Forcecage: No save, no SR. This spell with hold any non-caster enemy while we deal with their magical support. Only Disintegrate or trans-dimensional magic will take this down. Evard's Black Tentacles: No save, no SR. This spell is my answer to enemy casters, as well as the smaller, less muscular melee types. While this doesn't completely disable them, it is a great pain for any caster, as most spells cannot be cast while grappling. Meteor Swarm: No save, SR allowed. In the end, most big bad guys are just that: big. Their touch AC usually sucks, and between two feats (Spell Penetration, and Greater), you have a very good chance against any reasonable SR. Hitting with a touch attack SHOULD be cake, and the 36d6 damage this spell can deal out will cause ANY barbarian to at least flinch. Summary: My casting philosophy is that while most casters should start out as blasters, it's just too much trouble to remain effective in this way. Once you start approaching 10th level and higher, casting really becomes about controlling the battlefield, not just killing.
mvincent 09-05-06, 06:56 PM	I'm just curious as to what the best save-or-dies are for a wizard.Typically enchantments (since many can even turn your enemies into allies): 1st: Sleep 2nd: Hideous Laughter 3rd: Deep Slumber 4th: Charm Monster 5th: Dominate Person
Vanigo 09-05-06, 10:51 PM	I'm rather fond of flesh to stone, simply because so little is immune to it. Of course, it's not much good without some decent enervation action, but that holds true for any save-or-die.
joseccb 09-05-06, 10:52 PM	This is a topic that I've been researching a lot, because I play a Wiz char... There are large amount of save or die spells, different flavors, different conditions and different type of spells. Most of them either allow Will saving throw or Fortitude saving throw, while few allow for Reflex save. Agreeing to what Novacat says, the definition of "Best" is defined by the measure of effectiveness. However, there is not a single spell neither a group of save or die spells that totally outshines all other. It is just a matter of knowing which spell to use on which opponent. Like Novacat said it wouldn't be wise to use Feeblemind on a Cleric, like it would BE nice to use Phantasmal Killer on a Rogue. After using several spells, I realized that effectiveness is mostly what can define how good can a spell be. However, is not that easy, I later realized that there is also a very important factor: What limitations does the spell have from working?? Speaking more clearly, what is the range or percentage of monsters that are inmune or not likely to be affected by such spell?? The wider the viability of using the spell is, the better the spell becomes. Having the versatility to use a spell on very diverse and different creatures is probably one of the most powerful tools. Hold Person is a very good spell without a doubt, but remember that all non-humanoid creatures won't be elegible for this one. Also spells that have "mind affecting", "fear", "death", etc etc... won't be useful at all against creatures that are simply inmune to each correspondent effect. So, finding spells that can target basically any, and are most likely to work on large varieties of creatures is really useful when dettermining the range of best save or die spells. Some useful save or die spells can be (I put some NO save and die too, cause I think they are better): Maze: No save and die, ONLY if cast on the right target. Basically you get rid for the rest of the encounter of a creature with low INT, that is a threat to your party. Even when facing one single opponent, as long as he has low int, this could be a killer because of all the time you have to prepare yourself when the creature returns. And boy there are large amount of low INT monsters to face. Otto's Irresistible Dance: Unfortunately I prefer Otto's ID way better than maze. It is also a NO save and die spell, just read it... Wrathful Castigation: I also love this spell, it is a save twice or die spell. It is a very convinient spell. Flesh to Stone: Also mentioned, and if you want a "heightened version" use Glass Strike, both are good and viable... Feeblemind: Save or die against the right target, casting it on fighters would be stupid, but against int or cha based spellcasters even though the spell doesn't slay them I consider it a save or die. On top of that the DC is theorically higher against arcane spellcasters (I say theorically because it is not the DC that is higher, its the opponent that gets the penalty) Finger of Death: This is the classic save or die spell, I cannot say I'm a big fan of this spell but it is a very common spell that people like. Baleful Polymorph: Very good and also one of the most common save or die spells. It is good due to the fact of the versatility of the spell (Its not a death effect, not a mind affecting, etc etc.), it has the flaw that on a fail it DOESN't make the creature totally worthless and the flaw that it doesn't affect incorporeal creatures. Forcecage: Great spell, Novacat mentioned it. Weird: I love this spell, It's the sweeter version of phantasmal killer, and affecting several creatures is what I like the most of this spell, you'll be likely to kill at least few of em'. Wrack: My gish had this one, as well as a wounding greatsword, they both did the trick :D There are several more, right now I can't recall, will write later...
SageBahamut 09-05-06, 11:00 PM	You might consider the Ray of <insert godawfulness> and Power Word <insert godawfulness> families. Both are no-save (except for certain of the Rays) and while they're not autokills usually, they're sometimes the next best thing, especially if you're expecting a drawn-out battle. (Power Word: Pain can be /ridiculous/ in the right circumstances, and it's level 1.) Disintegrate is a classic and one of those damage-even-on-a-save spells that Novacat mentioned, and they are indeed tasty. Planeshift can be a save-or-die if done right. (Elemental Plane of Fire, anyone?) Pretty much all the others I know of offhand people have mentioned already.
Optimator 09-06-06, 04:11 AM	Frostfell (I think), from Frostburn is SICK. Targets in one 20x20x20 foot cube per level save or die (Flesh to Ice), and if they succeed, up to 20d6 cold damage. SR applies, though.
bitnine 09-06-06, 08:34 AM	Meteor Swarm: No save, SR allowed. In the end, most big bad guys are just that: big. Their touch AC usually sucks, and between two feats (Spell Penetration, and Greater), you have a very good chance against any reasonable SR. Hitting with a touch attack SHOULD be cake, and the 36d6 damage this spell can deal out will cause ANY barbarian to at least flinch.Blazing berserker ftw? ;)
Kimokeo 09-06-06, 01:45 PM	Any spell will do, it's the DC you need to look at. Heighten Spell - adjust the spell level to get a higher DC. Spell Focus - up the DC There are some PrC's that increase their specific school's DC. Ability Score - increase it always with level increases. My favorite: Start you character off as Venerable. Sure you take a hit -6 on Str/Dex/Con. But you get +3 to Int/Wis/Chr. 1st level, say a 18 Int. +3 = 21. That's a +5 to start to your DC's. At 4th level, the stat goes 22. That's +6 to the DC. Use Fox's Cunning - +4 to Int = +2 more to the DC. So, at 5th level mage, I have a Heightened Spell of 3rd level. Starting DC 13. With Fox's Cunning and normal Int = +8. DC is now 21. Spell Focus & Greater +2 more is DC 23. A 5th character carries a +5 save. So, that's an 18 on the roll needed before adding any other bonuses. This is a lot of work for a DC that is passable. Relying heavily on saving throws from opponents is a matter of finding more pluses and giving them some negatives. Makes blasting power an easier choice (Empower/Maximize come to mind) I prefer the Web spell for a save spell. Even if you save, you're still entangled for a little while.
RobbyPants 09-06-06, 01:56 PM	I may be remembering a 3.0 definition of the spell and not the 3.5, but Cloudkill can be great against many weak opponents. If I remember correctly, 1-3 HD creatures don't even get a save! It loses its abilities quickly as the opponents gain HD, but I'm throwing it in here because it has its uses. :ghosted:
bave 09-06-06, 02:10 PM	The best for core are: 3rd-Phantasmal Killer (the only one) 4rth-Otiluke's Sphere (not fatal, but out of combat indefinetly, unless has teleportation capabilities) 5th-Baleful Polymorph (first true save or die IMO, fort) 6th-Disintegrate (better than Flesh to Stone, more versality, less immunity, damage even if successful, ranged touch attack, fort or 2d6 per level, 5d6 on save) 7th-Forcecage. Finger of Death is no better than Flesh to Stone or Dis. except 1 point higher on the save, but also easily beatable as it is a death effect/necromancy (aka: death ward). After that its really moot.