Best spells for Arcane Thesis [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best spells for Arcane Thesis [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Katash
10-18-07, 03:14 PM With the errata saying yes that arcane thesis does subtract one from each meatmagic feat level applied to a spell what is the most metamagic feats we can layer on a single spell without changing it's level? (Energy Substitution-1 +Empower+1 =No adjustment.there must be more we can add) Further what is the best spell to use it on per level.

I'll start Lvl 1- Magic Missile
Lvl 2 -Scorching Ray
etc.....:D
MareltEkiran
10-18-07, 03:55 PM Arcane Thesis will never reduce to level adjustment of a spell to less than zero. So using energy substitution to reduce it to -1 will not work.

My personal favorite is Enervate. Apply Empower, Maximize and Split Ray to it to create an 8th level spell slot.

(4+1d4/2 (so 1 or 2))x2 So with an 8th level slot, you suck on average 11 levels out of your target... and you can do that as a 15th level wizard or 16th level Sorcerer or Dread Necromancer.

Vampiric Touch is also great. If you have a bit of a Gish build (it also works with Duskblades), you can just walk up to your enemy, keep poking him with a superboosted version of this spell and he'll never punch through the insane amount of temporary HP that you replenish each turn.
jaelis
10-18-07, 04:01 PM Vampiric Touch is also great. If you have a bit of a Gish build (it also works with Duskblades), you can just walk up to your enemy, keep poking him with a superboosted version of this spell and he'll never punch through the insane amount of temporary HP that you replenish each turn.

And don't forget Reach Spell. So even if you don't want to get into melee, you can keep the vampiric love coming.

But for plain old damage, I'd go with a lesser orb. No save or SR to worry about, and the damage gets pretty good pretty fast.
Axiomatic_vampire
10-23-07, 02:13 PM Arcane Thesis will never reduce to level adjustment of a spell to less than zero. So using energy substitution to reduce it to -1 will not work.

My personal favorite is Enervate. Apply Empower, Maximize and Split Ray to it to create an 8th level spell slot.

(

Definitely Enervate, but I like it with chain spell. Split, Chain, empower. 2d4+50% to everything in a 30ft radius. No save.
goawayugh
10-23-07, 02:20 PM Arcane Thesis will never reduce to level adjustment of a spell to less than zero. So using energy substitution to reduce it to -1 will not work.

Although, I do agree that this is their intent, and by RAI it should be that way. But...by RAW, all it says is that it can't reduce a spell below its original level. Meaning that a -1 and +1 will result in it not being lower than its original level.
Osedox
10-23-07, 06:48 PM Use of the Force Missile Mage allows for some great Magic Missiles. First off it boosts the total amount of missiles from 5 to 7, and secondly it allows you to change them into an Energy type. The second part in itself isnt too great but it does allow you to apply metamagic feats like Energy Admixture into the mix.
runestar
10-23-07, 09:02 PM If you can manage incantatrix and easy metamagic feats as well...you can reduce the slot adjustments of feats like maximize, repeating and empower to just +1, which is then reduced to +0 via arcane thesis...:P

Enervation. Twin+repeating + maximize (from metamagic rod) enervation = 8 lv drained per round, over 2 rounds, for a total of 16 negative lvs.
risner
10-23-07, 09:11 PM Although, I do agree that this is their intent, and by RAI it should be that way. But...by RAW, all it says is that it can't reduce a spell below its original level. Meaning that a -1 and +1 will result in it not being lower than its original level.

But that requires considering the concept of a -1 metamagic adjust legitimate in the first place.

Nothing in the errata allows the concept of -1 total, and my reading of the errata and the book still prohibits taking a LA+0 metamagic and turning it into a LA-1 metamagic.

The errata itself says you can never end up with less then 0 adjust.
FrostHammer
10-23-07, 10:03 PM How about Ray of Stupidity?
Dead_Weasel
10-23-07, 10:08 PM The errata itself says you can never end up with less then 0 adjust.Some people have chosen to take that as meaning that the spell cannot go lower than its original spell level. I do not agree, but that is the interpretation they choose to follow.
Mr.Black
10-24-07, 02:11 AM Could someone explain to me how using energy substitution with arcane thesis enables a caster to use empowered scorching ray as a 2nd level spell? It reads that you apply metamagic feats and subtract 1 per each metamagic feat. However, at the end we have the line that a spell cannot be dropped below its spell level with the use of this feat.

Just adding on energy substitution would result in scorching ray being a 2nd level spell, because it cannot go below 2nd level.

However, if you apply energy substitution and empower spell why does it still have no level adjustment? I guess it all matters whether you apply arcane thesis to each metamagic feat individually or to the entire sum of metamagic feats.

If there's any ambiguity about it, then maybe someone should write to the sage or ask customer service.
goawayugh
10-24-07, 07:08 AM With the errata saying yes that arcane thesis does subtract one from each meatmagic feat level applied to a spell what is the most metamagic feats we can layer on a single spell without changing it's level? (Energy Substitution-1 +Empower+1 =No adjustment.there must be more we can add) Further what is the best spell to use it on per level.

I'll start Lvl 1- Magic Missile
Lvl 2 -Scorching Ray
etc.....:D

Silent image (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556), of course...
runestar
10-24-07, 07:14 AM Could someone explain to me how using energy substitution with arcane thesis enables a caster to use empowered scorching ray as a 2nd level spell? It reads that you apply metamagic feats and subtract 1 per each metamagic feat. However, at the end we have the line that a spell cannot be dropped below its spell level with the use of this feat.

It depends on the order in which you apply the feats, though it does require you to interpret it a certain way.

Say I first empower a scorching ray. It fills a 3rd lv slot. I then add energy sub to it. It has a slot adjustment of -1 (since the feat says nothing about not being able to reduce the slot adjustment to 0 or below), bringing the final spell slot lv down to 2. And scorching ray is a 2nd lv spell, meaning that the final lv of the spell is no lower than its original lv.
Nephlite
10-24-07, 12:49 PM It depends on the order in which you apply the feats, though it does require you to interpret it a certain way.

Say I first empower a scorching ray. It fills a 3rd lv slot. I then add energy sub to it. It has a slot adjustment of -1 (since the feat says nothing about not being able to reduce the slot adjustment to 0 or below), bringing the final spell slot lv down to 2. And scorching ray is a 2nd lv spell, meaning that the final lv of the spell is no lower than its original lv.

The Sage or the FAQ did say that some feats are applied when most beneficial: namely, Practiced Spellcaster's bonus.

So depending on DM that might not fly, but seems to work by RAW.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Katash 10-18-07, 03:14 PM	With the errata saying yes that arcane thesis does subtract one from each meatmagic feat level applied to a spell what is the most metamagic feats we can layer on a single spell without changing it's level? (Energy Substitution-1 +Empower+1 =No adjustment.there must be more we can add) Further what is the best spell to use it on per level. I'll start Lvl 1- Magic Missile Lvl 2 -Scorching Ray etc.....:D
MareltEkiran 10-18-07, 03:55 PM	Arcane Thesis will never reduce to level adjustment of a spell to less than zero. So using energy substitution to reduce it to -1 will not work. My personal favorite is Enervate. Apply Empower, Maximize and Split Ray to it to create an 8th level spell slot. (4+1d4/2 (so 1 or 2))x2 So with an 8th level slot, you suck on average 11 levels out of your target... and you can do that as a 15th level wizard or 16th level Sorcerer or Dread Necromancer. Vampiric Touch is also great. If you have a bit of a Gish build (it also works with Duskblades), you can just walk up to your enemy, keep poking him with a superboosted version of this spell and he'll never punch through the insane amount of temporary HP that you replenish each turn.
jaelis 10-18-07, 04:01 PM	Vampiric Touch is also great. If you have a bit of a Gish build (it also works with Duskblades), you can just walk up to your enemy, keep poking him with a superboosted version of this spell and he'll never punch through the insane amount of temporary HP that you replenish each turn. And don't forget Reach Spell. So even if you don't want to get into melee, you can keep the vampiric love coming. But for plain old damage, I'd go with a lesser orb. No save or SR to worry about, and the damage gets pretty good pretty fast.
Axiomatic_vampire 10-23-07, 02:13 PM	Arcane Thesis will never reduce to level adjustment of a spell to less than zero. So using energy substitution to reduce it to -1 will not work. My personal favorite is Enervate. Apply Empower, Maximize and Split Ray to it to create an 8th level spell slot. ( Definitely Enervate, but I like it with chain spell. Split, Chain, empower. 2d4+50% to everything in a 30ft radius. No save.
goawayugh 10-23-07, 02:20 PM	Arcane Thesis will never reduce to level adjustment of a spell to less than zero. So using energy substitution to reduce it to -1 will not work. Although, I do agree that this is their intent, and by RAI it should be that way. But...by RAW, all it says is that it can't reduce a spell below its original level. Meaning that a -1 and +1 will result in it not being lower than its original level.
Osedox 10-23-07, 06:48 PM	Use of the Force Missile Mage allows for some great Magic Missiles. First off it boosts the total amount of missiles from 5 to 7, and secondly it allows you to change them into an Energy type. The second part in itself isnt too great but it does allow you to apply metamagic feats like Energy Admixture into the mix.
runestar 10-23-07, 09:02 PM	If you can manage incantatrix and easy metamagic feats as well...you can reduce the slot adjustments of feats like maximize, repeating and empower to just +1, which is then reduced to +0 via arcane thesis...:P Enervation. Twin+repeating + maximize (from metamagic rod) enervation = 8 lv drained per round, over 2 rounds, for a total of 16 negative lvs.
risner 10-23-07, 09:11 PM	Although, I do agree that this is their intent, and by RAI it should be that way. But...by RAW, all it says is that it can't reduce a spell below its original level. Meaning that a -1 and +1 will result in it not being lower than its original level. But that requires considering the concept of a -1 metamagic adjust legitimate in the first place. Nothing in the errata allows the concept of -1 total, and my reading of the errata and the book still prohibits taking a LA+0 metamagic and turning it into a LA-1 metamagic. The errata itself says you can never end up with less then 0 adjust.
FrostHammer 10-23-07, 10:03 PM	How about Ray of Stupidity?
Dead_Weasel 10-23-07, 10:08 PM	The errata itself says you can never end up with less then 0 adjust.Some people have chosen to take that as meaning that the spell cannot go lower than its original spell level. I do not agree, but that is the interpretation they choose to follow.
Mr.Black 10-24-07, 02:11 AM	Could someone explain to me how using energy substitution with arcane thesis enables a caster to use empowered scorching ray as a 2nd level spell? It reads that you apply metamagic feats and subtract 1 per each metamagic feat. However, at the end we have the line that a spell cannot be dropped below its spell level with the use of this feat. Just adding on energy substitution would result in scorching ray being a 2nd level spell, because it cannot go below 2nd level. However, if you apply energy substitution and empower spell why does it still have no level adjustment? I guess it all matters whether you apply arcane thesis to each metamagic feat individually or to the entire sum of metamagic feats. If there's any ambiguity about it, then maybe someone should write to the sage or ask customer service.
goawayugh 10-24-07, 07:08 AM	With the errata saying yes that arcane thesis does subtract one from each meatmagic feat level applied to a spell what is the most metamagic feats we can layer on a single spell without changing it's level? (Energy Substitution-1 +Empower+1 =No adjustment.there must be more we can add) Further what is the best spell to use it on per level. I'll start Lvl 1- Magic Missile Lvl 2 -Scorching Ray etc.....:D Silent image (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556), of course...
runestar 10-24-07, 07:14 AM	Could someone explain to me how using energy substitution with arcane thesis enables a caster to use empowered scorching ray as a 2nd level spell? It reads that you apply metamagic feats and subtract 1 per each metamagic feat. However, at the end we have the line that a spell cannot be dropped below its spell level with the use of this feat. It depends on the order in which you apply the feats, though it does require you to interpret it a certain way. Say I first empower a scorching ray. It fills a 3rd lv slot. I then add energy sub to it. It has a slot adjustment of -1 (since the feat says nothing about not being able to reduce the slot adjustment to 0 or below), bringing the final spell slot lv down to 2. And scorching ray is a 2nd lv spell, meaning that the final lv of the spell is no lower than its original lv.
Nephlite 10-24-07, 12:49 PM	It depends on the order in which you apply the feats, though it does require you to interpret it a certain way. Say I first empower a scorching ray. It fills a 3rd lv slot. I then add energy sub to it. It has a slot adjustment of -1 (since the feat says nothing about not being able to reduce the slot adjustment to 0 or below), bringing the final spell slot lv down to 2. And scorching ray is a 2nd lv spell, meaning that the final lv of the spell is no lower than its original lv. The Sage or the FAQ did say that some feats are applied when most beneficial: namely, Practiced Spellcaster's bonus. So depending on DM that might not fly, but seems to work by RAW.