Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WombleHunter 06-22-05, 09:33 AM	I am currently playing an elf sorcerer who just reached 4th level (there are some alterations in place: the class has 4 skill points rather than 2 and has Sleight of Hand and Use Magic Device on the skill list). The setting is a low-magic one, and as such the houserule is that only spells of the Illusion and Divination school (and Universal spells) can be cast as normal. If you want to cast other spells, then they are treated as though they are one spell level higher, and cost you a number of hit points equal to their original level to cast. "Fine," I think, "I've wanted to play a trickster illusionist sorcerer, I'll give it a go." Well, the game started at 1st level and I have just picked up Minor Image. My other spells are: 0-Detect Magic, Read Magic, Prestidigitation, Arcane Mark, Silent Portal, Ghost Sound. 1-Colour Spray, Disguise Self, Silent Image. 2-Minor Image. Having just finished fighting my way through a three-level drought of first-level only spells, I am getting a bit jaded with regards to illusions. They do work ok and my new ones can make noises (hurrah! :rolleyes: ) so I can distract my opponents rather well, but I don't seem to be doing much else and being a one-trick pony is getting a bit boring. Colour Spray has been doing really well, but it has a short range and a dangerous area if I want to avoid my mates. It is another four levels before I can get Shadow Conjuration. So, my question then is this: what spells would you recommend for a character of this type, and do you have any cunning tricks, traps, ruses, or cons that I can pull to liven up my game? EDIT: Spelling
tarkin 06-22-05, 11:02 AM	A key thing to remember is that animals/children/creatures with a low Wisdom/fools are easy to trick with illusions. When facing them, feel free to boost it up a notch. Here are some things you can do with just a Silent Image. 1) Create an illusion of a huge wall to stop the intelligent, wise cleric, fighters, and wizards riding HORSES. 2) Create a nasty illusion and tell a peasant that you have cast the dreaded "Sick Sauron's Sorcerorous Soul Stealer" and he must do X (or never do X again) to save his soul. 3) Use an illusion to control a stupid creature you don't want to kill. Also, Mirror Image is one of the BEST 2nd level defensive spells around. I often use it even when I am above 10th level, it just works so well. Hypnotic Pattern has the unusual ability of not requiring a Verbal component (unless you are a bard). As such, it can be very helpfull for a Sorceror that does not have the Silent Spell feat. (Which by the way you should strongly consider getting, along with Still Spell). --------------------------- When facing more intelligent creatures, (and a poor DM that requires greater description on your part). It is a good idea to go all out a bit. Remember that they may have Spellcraft, so sometimes it is a smart idea to build in a red herring. (I.E. The illusion is not just an Rock Fall cutting you off from the bad guys, but a monster appearing next to you and ALSO the rock fall buring you both).
WombleHunter 06-22-05, 11:59 AM	Part of the problem is that I am not entirely sure what constitutes proof that an illusion isn't real. Under the rules, a creature presented with such proof automatically disbelieves the illusion - but what do they have to do to get that and what counts as "interaction"? Minor Image can create the illusion of a roaring dire bear. No problem. As I understand it, the people witnessing the image don't get saving throws merely for doing so, because they haven't interacted with it. If one of them runs up and stabs it, then there is clear interation and they get a saving throw. Now, assuming they fail the save, how does the fact that the illusion does not provide a tactile component (in fact, I don't believe any figment provides such a component) mesh with the fact that they just hit it with a sword (a figment has an AC equal to 10+its size modifier)? Does the fact that there was no resistance to their blow constitute "proof"? Why not? I understand that I can cause the image to react appropriately to such stimulus (I am maintaining concentration on it, after all), but what role does an enemy realising there is no sensory component play in the process?
WombleHunter 06-22-05, 12:00 PM	Remember that they may have Spellcraft, so sometimes it is a smart idea to build in a red herring. (I.E. The illusion is not just an Rock Fall cutting you off from the bad guys, but a monster appearing next to you and ALSO the rock fall buring you both). This however, I do like. :)
Jaid 06-22-05, 02:07 PM	proof, IMO, would be running through the creature or something like that. if the sword passes through, (which, by the way, you would have to allow. you could always just make the creature so superhumanly fast it dodges everything) that would be normal interaction. which, of course, means that illusions are great for threatening people, but almost useless (unless it's got shadow or it's a very specialised illusion) for actually following through.
tarkin 06-22-05, 04:05 PM	If you are concerned about the "no resistance problem", then go for the illusions of incorporeal creatures. My sword keeps going through this ghost, I have to hit him SOMETIME.
Lord shadow35 06-22-05, 04:10 PM	project image, mislead, major image and the shadow evo and conj also shades
Gurv 06-22-05, 07:22 PM	If your figments are struck by a foe (you are correct about AC 10 + size modifier), then the foe gets a save to disbelieve. If he fails the save, it means that he has overlooked or somehow justified the lack of feedback he is getting (rather easy in an adrenaline pumping combat). What would constitute proof that it was an illusion? An illusion that produces clearly impossible results. If you failed to have the "bear" react to the otherwise clearly successful blow, or cause the bear to move supernaturally fast to get out of the way. If the sword goes through, then you'd better have it react with a bleeding gash. Low-level illusions are hard to make useful in combat, since they can't cause direct damage. Creating monsters with them is nearly useless, although it is most people's first instinct. The problem with this tactic is that it will never cause damage, and your foe gets saves both when you attack with the illusion as well as when he attacks it. If you simply can't help but create monsters with your illusions, one of the only things they are really good for is flanking. If a foe thinks that he must divide his attention between two flanking opponents, then he will. This should grant the flanking bonus, as well as allow rogues to sneak attack. They are also useful in this manner in that foes must consider them before moving; if they run away from an illusion they think is real, they should provoke AoO: they should be taking this into consideration and using the withdraw action, or tumbling, or whatever they would normally do. Don't let the DM metagame either! Outside of combat, you will excel. One of the things you can use illusions for is "wishing for things". It has some limitations, but when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like nails. If you've captured a foe and lack rope, create some with an illusion and tie him up with it. He gets a save, but if he fails, then he's tied up. Screw rope, create manacles. Don't have a weapon? Create an illusionary one; you're not going to hit anyone with it, but they don't need to know that, so it might as well be masterwork and covered in arcane runes and death symbols. A fun one to try is for when you are attacking someone you've had a chance to scout first. If you are sneaking into an enemy camp (you'd better know invisibility, or you're the worst illusionist ever), replace their weapons with illusionary ones. This can cause foes to rush into combat unarmed (and a reasonable DM might rule that swinging with a weapon you think is real but your opponent knows is illusionary provokes AoO), which is amusing the longer the ruse holds up. I once saved a companion who was being killed by a firing squad by replacing all the archer's arrows with illusionary ones. The old "create a wall" trick is so cliché that even the dimmest foe will eventually catch on. If you must use it, create a wall with a door in it; that makes more sense anyway if you're halfway down a hallway, and there are a lot more reasons why a door might not open than there are for dead-end passages. Now, something that most people do overlook is the fact that invisibility can be cast on things besides people. Aside from the fact that you could make the fighter appear unarmored or unarmed, you can also use the fact that invisible objects are much easier to get hurt on than visible ones. Invisible bear traps are especially worth the time, while invisible bags full of marbles are just being mean. Combining them is also interesting. Making something invisible doesn't have to be because you want to hide something either. It can also be because you want to see something. Casting invisibility on a wall or door allows you to see what lies beyond it without completely exposing yourself. Even better than the "illusionary wall with a locked door in it" trick is the "actual wall with an actual locked door that has been made invisible" trick.
WombleHunter 06-23-05, 11:39 AM	If your figments are struck by a foe (you are correct about AC 10 + size modifier), then the foe gets a save to disbelieve. If he fails the save, it means that he has overlooked or somehow justified the lack of feedback he is getting (rather easy in an adrenaline pumping combat). What would constitute proof that it was an illusion? An illusion that produces clearly impossible results. If you failed to have the "bear" react to the otherwise clearly successful blow, or cause the bear to move supernaturally fast to get out of the way. If the sword goes through, then you'd better have it react with a bleeding gash. Outside of combat, you will excel. One of the things you can use illusions for is "wishing for things". It has some limitations, but when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like nails. If you've captured a foe and lack rope, create some with an illusion and tie him up with it. He gets a save, but if he fails, then he's tied up. Screw rope, create manacles. Don't have a weapon? Create an illusionary one; you're not going to hit anyone with it, but they don't need to know that, so it might as well be masterwork and covered in arcane runes and death symbols. A fun one to try is for when you are attacking someone you've had a chance to scout first. If you are sneaking into an enemy camp (you'd better know invisibility, or you're the worst illusionist ever), replace their weapons with illusionary ones. This can cause foes to rush into combat unarmed (and a reasonable DM might rule that swinging with a weapon you think is real but your opponent knows is illusionary provokes AoO), which is amusing the longer the ruse holds up. I once saved a companion who was being killed by a firing squad by replacing all the archer's arrows with illusionary ones. The old "create a wall" trick is so cliché that even the dimmest foe will eventually catch on. If you must use it, create a wall with a door in it; that makes more sense anyway if you're halfway down a hallway, and there are a lot more reasons why a door might not open than there are for dead-end passages. Now, something that most people do overlook is the fact that invisibility can be cast on things besides people. Aside from the fact that you could make the fighter appear unarmored or unarmed, you can also use the fact that invisible objects are much easier to get hurt on than visible ones. Invisible bear traps are especially worth the time, while invisible bags full of marbles are just being mean. Combining them is also interesting. Making something invisible doesn't have to be because you want to hide something either. It can also be because you want to see something. Casting invisibility on a wall or door allows you to see what lies beyond it without completely exposing yourself. Even better than the "illusionary wall with a locked door in it" trick is the "actual wall with an actual locked door that has been made invisible" trick. You have some nice ideas here (I especially like the stuff with invisible equipment). However, I am not sure of some of what you say. Specifically, I do not believe you could bind somebody with illusory rope, any more than you could physically block passage with an illusory wall. Even if the target fails a Will save when you first cast the spell, I think most DMs would say that their wrists passing harmlessly through the bonds constituted "proof". It's a good point about the red herrings, but I'd have to go back and read the spell description to see whether it allows more than one obect or effect per casting. I suppose if it didn't, it would be too sharply limited. Another problem with combat uses is that it is a standard action to concentrate on an Image spell. If I do create the image of a sword, I can't even make attacks with it, since I have to spend a standard action to do so. This is why I even get the opportunity to make an illusion react appropriately (bleeding wounds etc). Similarly, according to the RAW, I can't make an illusion of something so fast you can't hit it; the image has an AC (and a low one at that) which I cannot alter and which dictates how often my illusion will be hit. I like a lot of what's said though. More thoughts later.
Pinky's brain 06-23-05, 11:58 AM	Illusionary clouds of smoke are nice (or an area of absolute darkness ... since you could not interact with that to get your save the DM might rule that one impossible). Full concealment without any miss chance on your end.
Kurama Youko 06-23-05, 06:19 PM	use the Shadow Conjuration Spells and Shades to create/conjure creatures who'd normally require exp or gold spent to have them work for you. Basically mimic the planar binding spells or dragon ally spells. I saw this mentioned someone else and thought that it was pure genius.