Best spells to put in wands and staves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best spells to put in wands and staves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Deus_Proelii
09-18-07, 02:22 PM What would be the best spells to put in a wand or staff?
Easalyamusedoldman
09-18-07, 02:29 PM What would be the best spells to put in a wand or staff?

Fireball, Lightning bolt, Melf's Acid arrow... Minor Creation
Deus_Proelii
09-18-07, 02:32 PM See that's the issue. Fireball, lightning bolt are subject to SR and allow saves. Since a spell from a wand uses the minimum CL needed to cast the spell, this would seem to make spells which allow saves poor choices for wands. Now with a staff you could use your own CL and spell DC... but it would still be subject to SR. Not so simple a choice is it?

What I'm wondering as well is, if you cast a spell from a wand or staff that is susceptible to SR against a target with SR... does the caster level check that you make benefit from spell penetration?
PhaedrusXY
09-18-07, 02:34 PM Web is a good one for a wand, or anything else that works reasonably well even if they make the save, and doesn't allow spell resistance.

For a staff, you can use anything, as you use your own caster level and ability scores (for the DCs, damage, spell resistance, etc).

Staff Descriptions
Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

This means that staffs are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than ones from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependant on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming a target’s spell resistance.

Furthermore, a staff can hold a spell of any level, unlike a wand, which is limited to spells of 4th level or lower. The minimum caster level of a staff is 8th. Standard staffs are described below. I think feats that increase the save DC would apply to a staff, but not things like Spell Penetration.
FLAvatar
09-18-07, 02:54 PM In addition to avoiding spells that rely on DCs/saves or beating SR, utility spells that don't rely on caster level are handy.

A wand of Knock will last effectively forever, as will wands of Detect <whatever>. They are really good for divinations (Comprehend Languages) or situational buffs as well, as long as you don't mind them getting dispelled rather easily. If a spell would be handy to have available, but you hesitate to memorize it over a sexier offensive or defensive spell or even one that would just plain benefit more from higher caster level, it is a very good candidate for a wand.
Deus_Proelii
09-18-07, 03:02 PM Hmmm... so I see that one approach is to put utility spells in wands/staves. I am of the opinion, though, that wands/staves are best for spells that you will definitely use again and again, since they have 50 charges, way more than your spell slots will ever be. By and large, I feel that situational utility spells are usually only cast occasionally, hence are better left to scrolls, like knock.

I would admit, though, that buff spells are also excellent to put in a wand or staff.

However, my list so far is the following.

Offensive - Scorching Ray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Web, Orb of Acid, Orb of Force, Magic Missile (Empowered), Enervation, Polar Ray

Buff/Utility - Identify, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Fox's Cunning, Enlarge Person, Haste

Any additions?
tarkin
09-18-07, 03:09 PM First, wand vs. staff is VERY different.

The best spells for wands are:

Cure Light Wounds. (By FAR the best one)
Ice Storm (no penalty for low caster level)
Reduce Person (incredibaly usefull for meeting weight limits for spells, etc.)
Grease (Rogues love it)
Invisibility (When you want it you want them for your whole party)
Tiny Hut (Rogues love it)
False Life (one of the best buff spells around, good for everyone).
Vharuck
09-18-07, 03:12 PM First off, let's look at the wand. It can cast one spell of up to 4th level 50 times, determining the save DC and caster level by the minimum ability score required to cast the spell (however, the caster level can be raised in exchange for a higher price).

50 times is a lot, so it should be a spell that's cast often. It's tempting to put attack spells in a wand, but that's not really as effective as one might think. A wand of fireball would only deal 5d6 damage and have a save DC of 14. Even at the level where wizards can first cast fireball, DC 14 isn't that great and the relative cost of that wand is huge. So the best wand spells shouldn't rely too much on caster level or saving throws.

Some good spells for wands are cure light wounds, detect magic, identify, ray of enfeeblement, scorching ray, and haste.
Easalyamusedoldman
09-18-07, 03:25 PM Incendiary Slime, step above Grease...:D
CrimsonDeath
09-18-07, 03:30 PM Perhaps spells like Endure Elements and Healthful Rest, which have fixed durations and fixed effects. (Both last 24 hours and do one specific thing, regardless of caster level.)
murhe
09-18-07, 03:36 PM I bet my characters money on often used spells without great difference on caster level. Best choices are certain protective spells like mage armor, invisibility and mirror images.

Scorching ray is great offensive spell used from wand and because it is ray, my char may add sneak attack damage to spell damage. Damage output is not great, but the wand is pretty cheap and 50 shots will be more than enought to finish opponents. It also saves my spell lots for utility spells.

Touch of idiocy is another nice spell. It ruins day for other spellcasters quickly and decrease will saves.

Summon monster spells are usefull certain situations and they suffer only low duration if used from wands. I have summon monster III wich gives certain flexibility and enought duration for most task during combat. I don't expect long livity of summoned monsters anyway.

I suppose charm person could be usefull, but I expect too much succeed will saves to trust it.

There are also popular stat boost spells usefull in wands.
Mandragore
09-20-07, 06:54 AM Rary's mnemonic enhancer ;)
tarkin
09-20-07, 11:14 AM Ask your DM before you try the Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer. If the DM is smart he will at least consider ruling it does not stack with itself.

Otherwise, the wand of Rary's is the single most powerfull wand you can get.

Dump all the charges, memorize:

10 fireballs
10 lightning bolts
5 Dispell Magics
5 Fly
5 Vampiric Touches
5 displacements
5 Hastes.
5 Protection from Energys (one of each element)

Now destroy an army.
tafkamhokie
09-20-07, 01:15 PM The whole caster level/save DC problem has already been covered. I really dislike wands with attack spells that allow saving throws.

Wands of magic missile, scorching ray, and ice storm are not so bad. Fireball or sleep...blech.

The best spell ever for a wand is probably lesser vigor. 11 hp of curing per charge...twice as effective as a wand of cure light wounds (which was already one of the best wand spells ever).

Buff spells are obvious since they allow no save...shield, alter self..stuff like that.

But another key point is wands let you cast the same spell over and over again in rapid succession. More times than even a sorcerer could. And sometimes you need to cast one spell ten times in a row.

If you are up against a wizard, the odds that every doggone door in his tower are arcane locked is pretty good. You will probably need 15 knock spells before you are done with the adventure. No caster can pull that off.

If you just got ambushed by shadows, then one or two lesser restoration spells is not going to get everyone back to full strength. It could easily take 10 or more castings to put a party back together after an encounter with anything that does ability damage.

Covered lesser vigor already.

If you step through a portal and land in a desert, everyone in the party will need an endure elements. Even if your cleric or wizard did prepare one, I'll bet they didn't prepare a half dozen of them.

Basically any spell that you don't need every day, but when you do need it, you need ten of them, is a great candidate for a wand.
Deus_Proelii
09-20-07, 01:54 PM Thanks for all the input.

I've always liked the idea of a wand of scorching ray (CL 11) as a kind of sidearm, a backup once my prepared spells are gone.

I agree that spells which allow saves and are susceptible for SR are poor choices for wands, and suboptimal for staves at best.
PhaedrusXY
09-20-07, 02:53 PM I agree that spells which allow saves and are susceptible for SR are poor choices for wands, and suboptimal for staves at best.You are not paying attention at all. They are FINE for STAVES. STAVES use the wielder's caster level and save DCs.
CrimsonDeath
09-20-07, 06:37 PM Another nice level 1 spell that gains nothing from a higher caster level:

True Strike.
Rymosrac
09-20-07, 07:50 PM Would be better if it didn't only work on the caster.
BruceLeeroy
09-20-07, 11:25 PM Hmm. What about Wraithstrike?

Do Swift action spells work with a wand?

If so, then Expeditious Retreat, Swift might be a good idea for those times when you absolutely need 30 extra fe
BruceLeeroy
09-20-07, 11:27 PM Edit.
Xan_Kriegor
09-20-07, 11:59 PM I'm not sure if divine casters can create magic items normally (don't have a lot of experience with it), but wouldn't a wand of triadspell (SpC) also be pretty good in the way that Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer is, just a little less? I mean, triple the number of cure light/moderate/serious wounds spells per day would be nice. However I just looked it up and it's a 5th level spell so it could only be a staff and you can only do it to prepared spells, so sorcerers are out.
Merestil Haye
09-21-07, 09:37 AM Hmm. What about Wraithstrike?

Do Swift action spells work with a wand?Yes, but they lose the thing which makes them good - a swift action casting time. It takes a minimum of a standard action to activate any spell trigger device.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deus_Proelii 09-18-07, 02:22 PM	What would be the best spells to put in a wand or staff?
Easalyamusedoldman 09-18-07, 02:29 PM	What would be the best spells to put in a wand or staff? Fireball, Lightning bolt, Melf's Acid arrow... Minor Creation
Deus_Proelii 09-18-07, 02:32 PM	See that's the issue. Fireball, lightning bolt are subject to SR and allow saves. Since a spell from a wand uses the minimum CL needed to cast the spell, this would seem to make spells which allow saves poor choices for wands. Now with a staff you could use your own CL and spell DC... but it would still be subject to SR. Not so simple a choice is it? What I'm wondering as well is, if you cast a spell from a wand or staff that is susceptible to SR against a target with SR... does the caster level check that you make benefit from spell penetration?
PhaedrusXY 09-18-07, 02:34 PM	Web is a good one for a wand, or anything else that works reasonably well even if they make the save, and doesn't allow spell resistance. For a staff, you can use anything, as you use your own caster level and ability scores (for the DCs, damage, spell resistance, etc). Staff Descriptions Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. This means that staffs are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than ones from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependant on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming a target’s spell resistance. Furthermore, a staff can hold a spell of any level, unlike a wand, which is limited to spells of 4th level or lower. The minimum caster level of a staff is 8th. Standard staffs are described below. I think feats that increase the save DC would apply to a staff, but not things like Spell Penetration.
FLAvatar 09-18-07, 02:54 PM	In addition to avoiding spells that rely on DCs/saves or beating SR, utility spells that don't rely on caster level are handy. A wand of Knock will last effectively forever, as will wands of Detect <whatever>. They are really good for divinations (Comprehend Languages) or situational buffs as well, as long as you don't mind them getting dispelled rather easily. If a spell would be handy to have available, but you hesitate to memorize it over a sexier offensive or defensive spell or even one that would just plain benefit more from higher caster level, it is a very good candidate for a wand.
Deus_Proelii 09-18-07, 03:02 PM	Hmmm... so I see that one approach is to put utility spells in wands/staves. I am of the opinion, though, that wands/staves are best for spells that you will definitely use again and again, since they have 50 charges, way more than your spell slots will ever be. By and large, I feel that situational utility spells are usually only cast occasionally, hence are better left to scrolls, like knock. I would admit, though, that buff spells are also excellent to put in a wand or staff. However, my list so far is the following. Offensive - Scorching Ray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Web, Orb of Acid, Orb of Force, Magic Missile (Empowered), Enervation, Polar Ray Buff/Utility - Identify, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Fox's Cunning, Enlarge Person, Haste Any additions?
tarkin 09-18-07, 03:09 PM	First, wand vs. staff is VERY different. The best spells for wands are: Cure Light Wounds. (By FAR the best one) Ice Storm (no penalty for low caster level) Reduce Person (incredibaly usefull for meeting weight limits for spells, etc.) Grease (Rogues love it) Invisibility (When you want it you want them for your whole party) Tiny Hut (Rogues love it) False Life (one of the best buff spells around, good for everyone).
Vharuck 09-18-07, 03:12 PM	First off, let's look at the wand. It can cast one spell of up to 4th level 50 times, determining the save DC and caster level by the minimum ability score required to cast the spell (however, the caster level can be raised in exchange for a higher price). 50 times is a lot, so it should be a spell that's cast often. It's tempting to put attack spells in a wand, but that's not really as effective as one might think. A wand of fireball would only deal 5d6 damage and have a save DC of 14. Even at the level where wizards can first cast fireball, DC 14 isn't that great and the relative cost of that wand is huge. So the best wand spells shouldn't rely too much on caster level or saving throws. Some good spells for wands are cure light wounds, detect magic, identify, ray of enfeeblement, scorching ray, and haste.
Easalyamusedoldman 09-18-07, 03:25 PM	Incendiary Slime, step above Grease...:D
CrimsonDeath 09-18-07, 03:30 PM	Perhaps spells like Endure Elements and Healthful Rest, which have fixed durations and fixed effects. (Both last 24 hours and do one specific thing, regardless of caster level.)
murhe 09-18-07, 03:36 PM	I bet my characters money on often used spells without great difference on caster level. Best choices are certain protective spells like mage armor, invisibility and mirror images. Scorching ray is great offensive spell used from wand and because it is ray, my char may add sneak attack damage to spell damage. Damage output is not great, but the wand is pretty cheap and 50 shots will be more than enought to finish opponents. It also saves my spell lots for utility spells. Touch of idiocy is another nice spell. It ruins day for other spellcasters quickly and decrease will saves. Summon monster spells are usefull certain situations and they suffer only low duration if used from wands. I have summon monster III wich gives certain flexibility and enought duration for most task during combat. I don't expect long livity of summoned monsters anyway. I suppose charm person could be usefull, but I expect too much succeed will saves to trust it. There are also popular stat boost spells usefull in wands.
Mandragore 09-20-07, 06:54 AM	Rary's mnemonic enhancer ;)
tarkin 09-20-07, 11:14 AM	Ask your DM before you try the Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer. If the DM is smart he will at least consider ruling it does not stack with itself. Otherwise, the wand of Rary's is the single most powerfull wand you can get. Dump all the charges, memorize: 10 fireballs 10 lightning bolts 5 Dispell Magics 5 Fly 5 Vampiric Touches 5 displacements 5 Hastes. 5 Protection from Energys (one of each element) Now destroy an army.
tafkamhokie 09-20-07, 01:15 PM	The whole caster level/save DC problem has already been covered. I really dislike wands with attack spells that allow saving throws. Wands of magic missile, scorching ray, and ice storm are not so bad. Fireball or sleep...blech. The best spell ever for a wand is probably lesser vigor. 11 hp of curing per charge...twice as effective as a wand of cure light wounds (which was already one of the best wand spells ever). Buff spells are obvious since they allow no save...shield, alter self..stuff like that. But another key point is wands let you cast the same spell over and over again in rapid succession. More times than even a sorcerer could. And sometimes you need to cast one spell ten times in a row. If you are up against a wizard, the odds that every doggone door in his tower are arcane locked is pretty good. You will probably need 15 knock spells before you are done with the adventure. No caster can pull that off. If you just got ambushed by shadows, then one or two lesser restoration spells is not going to get everyone back to full strength. It could easily take 10 or more castings to put a party back together after an encounter with anything that does ability damage. Covered lesser vigor already. If you step through a portal and land in a desert, everyone in the party will need an endure elements. Even if your cleric or wizard did prepare one, I'll bet they didn't prepare a half dozen of them. Basically any spell that you don't need every day, but when you do need it, you need ten of them, is a great candidate for a wand.
Deus_Proelii 09-20-07, 01:54 PM	Thanks for all the input. I've always liked the idea of a wand of scorching ray (CL 11) as a kind of sidearm, a backup once my prepared spells are gone. I agree that spells which allow saves and are susceptible for SR are poor choices for wands, and suboptimal for staves at best.
PhaedrusXY 09-20-07, 02:53 PM	I agree that spells which allow saves and are susceptible for SR are poor choices for wands, and suboptimal for staves at best.You are not paying attention at all. They are FINE for STAVES. STAVES use the wielder's caster level and save DCs.
CrimsonDeath 09-20-07, 06:37 PM	Another nice level 1 spell that gains nothing from a higher caster level: True Strike.
Rymosrac 09-20-07, 07:50 PM	Would be better if it didn't only work on the caster.
BruceLeeroy 09-20-07, 11:25 PM	Hmm. What about Wraithstrike? Do Swift action spells work with a wand? If so, then Expeditious Retreat, Swift might be a good idea for those times when you absolutely need 30 extra fe
BruceLeeroy 09-20-07, 11:27 PM	Edit.
Xan_Kriegor 09-20-07, 11:59 PM	I'm not sure if divine casters can create magic items normally (don't have a lot of experience with it), but wouldn't a wand of triadspell (SpC) also be pretty good in the way that Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer is, just a little less? I mean, triple the number of cure light/moderate/serious wounds spells per day would be nice. However I just looked it up and it's a 5th level spell so it could only be a staff and you can only do it to prepared spells, so sorcerers are out.
Merestil Haye 09-21-07, 09:37 AM	Hmm. What about Wraithstrike? Do Swift action spells work with a wand?Yes, but they lose the thing which makes them good - a swift action casting time. It takes a minimum of a standard action to activate any spell trigger device.