Post/Author/DateTime	Post
suckerpunch 06-16-05, 02:40 AM	hi there, just wondering what the best creatures/undead, etc. can be summoned by spell level/caster level... i never really used these spells much in the past but have a new found respect for their possible uses in my old age. any help would be great. -Thx
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 06-16-05, 02:49 AM	Trap detector.
journeyman777 06-16-05, 07:51 AM	1. Are the "summon monster" spells better, worse, or roughly equal to the "summon nature's ally" spells in terms of versatility and overall combat effectiveness? 2. Which summons (from each list and for each spell level) are the most (generally) useful in combat? Against tanks? Against casters? Against stealthers? 3. What level of control do you actually have over a summoned creature anyway? I've avoided using summon spells until now because I don't know the answers, but one of my PCs wants to play a character built around using summoning spells and I need some ideas on how to help him make it work. I'll be looking for the answers on my own, but input from more experienced players would be really welcome here.
Ossyrian Ush'Bel 06-16-05, 11:35 AM	Helping your rogue/wizard get flanking-sneak attack bonus
ajmastrean 06-16-05, 12:53 PM	Journeyman...what class are you looking for? Clerics are really excellent, they get summon monster and planar ally...they can also get into the Thaumatugist (sp?) PrC which is a heavy duty summoner. Take spell focus (conj) and augment summoning for sure. Summon Nature's Ally gets a few of the Summon Monsters a spell level earlier, but otherwise the list is small and not very impressive. Genie's, Elementals, and such are the best around. Control of summoned creature - it attacks to the best of it's ability. If you can communicate with it...you can command it to do specific actions. That is the hard part, particularly with animals. It seems to imply that the creature is friendly and cooperative. I assume your DM has certain control over what they will do for you (hound archon won't slay your mom for no reason). The other issue I see is...how much do you know about a creature to command it to do something? how can you find out more without wasting too much time (knowledge checks?) I suggest staying away from summon monsters I and II, they are mostly junk, except in the case of trap "detection". In all cases...Take advantage of monsters with special attack bonuses...wolves can trip, crocodiles get an excellent grapple bonus, four legged bull rush champions. When you hit higher level summons (and higher intelligence) use them for spells or information! (Obviously physical stats and base attack are nice to look at too, but use these guys creatively!) Summon Monster III bigger animals with nice templates: celestial dire badger, celestial black bear. hippogriff may be able to haul a character around (light load limit for flying...if you have augment summoning, it may not be a problem). The elementals are nice for their special attacks, but they are small therefore somewhat less effective in combat. Summon Monster IV Lantern archons are a nice source of everburning torches. Again, more tougher templated animals. The mephits aren't too bad, but are basically like the small elementals from II. Summon Monster V Hound Archon is nice. Bearded Devil can use Greater Teleport at will. Bigger animals = better flying, tripping, grappling. Medium Elementals - use their special attacks. Summon Monster VI Bralani can cure serious wounds 2/day among other spells. Janni can change a creature's size (among other personal powers) Chain devils/Xill are pretty solid for combat Summon Monster VII Avoral's have Lay on Hands, a host of other spells (dimension door, detect magic, lightning bolt), speak with animals, true seeing. Djinni have a nice whirlwind and can cast a few spells (wind walk, persistent image) Elementals are getting bigger! Invisible Stalker - enough said. Bone Devil/Babau have plenty of excellent spell likes - dimension door, dimensional anchor, teleports Summon Monster VIII Lillend - casts as a 6th lvl Bard and has plenty of spell-likes Vrock - awesome demon, excellent power. bigger Elementals Animals - should be tripping/grappling/bull rushing everything into oblivion Summon Monster IX Couatl casts sorcorer/cleric spells at 9th level. Leonal is a buffed Avoral, the Protective Aura is especially nice (magic circle vs. evil, lesser globe of invulnerability, extras) More devils/demons with more power/spell likes/infernal knowledge of things so evil that the even the champions of men quake at the mere mention of their name.
tarkin 06-16-05, 02:40 PM	While Ajmastream makes some very good points, I think he overestimates how usefull most of the higher level creatures are and underestimates the use of the 1-3 creatures. In all cases, you should NOT consider them to be a main line general fighting force. They are good for traps triggers, flanking, and dealing with odd situations that require odd/special capabilities, and casting spells that you did not prepare/know but the summoned creature can do. They are almost NEVER effective general combatants. For example, Ajam thinks that Chain Devils/Xill are pretty good creatures for a SM VI, which I disagree with whole heartedly. They are both CR 6, and you need to be Caster Level 11 to cast the spell that summons them. While they are scary SOUNDING, by the time you can summon them, they suck. If I summon a Xill, I am doing it for their plane walking ability (they can carry you with them....) At 11th level, a fighter normally has well over 77 hitpoints and you think that measily Xill with 32 can stand up to them? Nope.
ajmastrean 06-16-05, 02:53 PM	Tarkin... You make some good points. I was looking at the combat aspects of a few of these monsters more for their special attacks...not pure physical power. Don't replace your fighters, but supplement them with flanks, trips, grapples, gazes, auras, and such. Summoned monsters are especially key for their maneuverability, both where you place them and if they have a burrow/climb/fly. I tried to emphasize spell use...teleportations, divinations, protective, and especially healing. They are also nice for roleplaying...ask those celestials about the demons you are about to fight, etc....use their knowledge skills to your advantage in situations where you don't want to risk a screwy divination.
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 06-16-05, 03:09 PM	1. Are the "summon monster" spells better, worse, or roughly equal to the "summon nature's ally" spells in terms of versatility and overall combat effectiveness? Both, actually. You get stronger elementals or the same elementals at lower level with Summon Nature's Ally, but you get Celestial/Dire animals instead of regular ones with Summon Monster. 2. Which summons (from each list and for each spell level) are the most (generally) useful in combat? Against tanks? Against casters? Against stealthers? In ALL cases, Elementals are the best Tanks due to their flat damage reduction. Against casters it depends, Celestial/Dire creatures have SR, Air Elementals have Whirlwind ability to distract caster, or catch them if they are flying, a Fire Elemental will be immune to their fire spells, etc. You have to summon thebest creature for the situation. Against steath, the simple celestial Dog/Badger has the Scent ability. So do most animals. While a cleric may cast True Sight, your spellcaster can cast a first level summon spell to have it check a room for hidden opponents. 3. What level of control do you actually have over a summoned creature anyway? It attacks an opponent, or it follows commands if it can understand you. I've avoided using summon spells until now because I don't know the answers, but one of my PCs wants to play a character built around using summoning spells and I need some ideas on how to help him make it work. I'll be looking for the answers on my own, but input from more experienced players would be really welcome here. Another use of low level Summon spells is to force an opponent to use an attack of oportunity. Although you can summon it next to an opponent, by having it 20 feet away and charging, you could save your fighter from an attack of opportunity. Augment Summoning is very nice for a Summon Monster character. It requires Spell Focus Conjuration, which is best for Wizards. They have a lot of other good Conjuration effects. Clerics can play this type of character because of the access to all their spells on their spell list, and the druid is good because they can communicate with their animals and spontaneously use Summon nature's Ally. The points isn't hich class does it best, each have a method to make their class strong with Summon Spells. Generally, Summon spells are used to add an extra fighter to the combat forcing your opponent to give up some attacks (1-3) to destroy it. This saves your melee character from taking damage. It also acts as a bodyguard for you.
Rhadamanthus 06-16-05, 05:47 PM	One easily exploitable loophole in the Summon Undead spells from LM is their lack of HD limit. Thus, a 3rd level spell can get you a 12-headed hydra skeleton for a few rounds. However, I think that a sensible DM would place at least some restrictions. Oh, and look into the Alienist PrC from Complete Arcane. They can summon Pseudonatural (no, not epic) creatures and can do extra summoning and things like that. I liked them even in 3.0.
ehrin 06-16-05, 05:54 PM	summon unicorns to help heal the party. and depending on the AR of your DM, summoned creatures can be great problem solvers. Not sure who in the crowd is out to harm you? summon a creature, and watch who it attacks. Can't find the person at the party who tried to poison your wine? Summon a creature, and see who it attacks. Wanna see if an area is clear of hidden people? summon a creature, and see if they attack anything.
journeyman777 06-17-05, 07:21 AM	Very helpful stuff from everyone, especially Kullak. I think I have found one interesting use for the "summon 1d4+1 much weaker creatures" function most of these spells have. By using the aid another action, those creatures can provide a member of your party with a possible +4 to +10 attack bonus on their next strike (in addition to the +2 from flanking) Monks trying to hit with stunning fist (or anyone else that needs a particular strike to hit) benefit greatly from this tactic. (Can you say "stun lock monk"? Sacred/Enlightened Fist chars should use this against low fort save chars every chance they get.) If you are :eek: stuck relying mostly on summons to tank, is it worth buffing/healing them or should those spell slots be used for more offensive options? Which summoned monsters can use spells/spell-like abilities and what spells/abilities are they? (not counting stuff that would cost them xp, I know they won't use those)
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 06-17-05, 07:34 AM	Very helpful stuff from everyone, especially Kullak. I think I have found one interesting use for the "summon 1d4+1 much weaker creatures" function most of these spells have. By using the aid another action, those creatures can provide a member of your party with a possible +4 to +10 attack bonus on their next strike (in addition to the +2 from flanking) Monks trying to hit with stunning fist (or anyone else that needs a particular strike to hit) benefit greatly from this tactic. (Can you say "stun lock monk"? Sacred/Enlightened Fist chars should use this against low fort save chars every chance they get.) You are welcome. I also began considering that multiple creatures are nice when illusions come into effect (mirror image, displacement, invisibility) to increase your chance at hitting your opponent. Also, most bears have improved grab which is nice against casters. Just remember that many creatures have area spell like effects or cleave/great cleave. At higher levels, your "aid another" will only work for one round. Also, don't be afraid to aid another to more than one party member attacking. In many cases, two +2 bonuses are better than one +4. Depends on the creature, of course. Summon spells have a certain versitility to them. They are weaker than a PC, but bring a new range of abilities. I haven't seen them last past one encounter no matter what the duration, so you MUST consider them as disposable. Otherwise, creativity and adaptability are key. (Like summoning a Fire Elemental and then Fireball the opponent since the Elemental is immune). :)
ajmastrean 06-17-05, 07:42 AM	journeyman Which summoned monsters can use spells/spell-like abilities and what spells/abilities are they? (not counting stuff that would cost them xp, I know they won't use those) All of the abilities are listed in their stat blocks in the Monster Manual (or SRD). They can use any of them...the summon monster spell description says the creature fights to the best of its abilities, so if that includes using a su/ex/sp, then so be it. The spell description also says that if you can communicate with the creature, then you can command it to do specific actions. This action is contingent on what languages you speak (though Common should be good enough, and plenty of good summons have Tongues). Also, you would have to know their sp/su/ex abilities, make a knowledge check, or ask them to do something general and hope they have an ability (ex: just say "heal me!" and hope they have lay on hands, etc.) I listed some specific abilities in my long post back there.
journeyman777 06-17-05, 07:47 AM	If you cast Greater Spell Immunity on your summons before casting Antimagic Field, you can prevent them from winking out of existence. Without the benefit of magical gear or spells, most humanoids will find it far more difficult to deal with your summons. (a little DR could go a long way and enemy ACs will drop quite a bit; or is it too little, too late for summons to tank effectively?)
CryoSilver 06-17-05, 06:29 PM	The nice thing about the alienist is that the pseudonatural template allows True Strike once per day, so paired with Quieckend and Repeated Spells, maybe the occasional Twinned spell, that's a crap load of little creatures each hitting once against virtually anyone, providing a bunch of flanking bonuses, and with the quantity of creatures that can be produced in a short time, bogging down the enemy casters and making a living wall for the fighters to hack through.
journeyman777 06-17-05, 08:20 PM	AoE and great cleave normally hurt those tactics, but that is what silence and maximized ray of enfeeblement are for aren't they? Actually, I think the biggest problem with Alienist is finding someone who can rp one. Great tricks there, but I don't think I'll recomend it to someone who knows even less than I do about most of the summons.
krichaiushii 06-18-05, 10:53 AM	The larger Air Elementals (those with 10' or greater reach) work nicely when friendly clerics (perhaps the summoner) cast Silence on them, then send them after opposing casters. On a related note, is the feat Augment Summoning worth getting for those that summon creatures for abilities vs those that summon for tanks?
Kullak-Kobold Sorcerer 06-18-05, 01:13 PM	The larger Air Elementals (those with 10' or greater reach) work nicely when friendly clerics (perhaps the summoner) cast Silence on them, then send them after opposing casters. On a related note, is the feat Augment Summoning worth getting for those that summon creatures for abilities vs those that summon for tanks? Since Augment Summoning requires the feat Spell Focus Conjuration, I would only get it as a Wizard. Clerics and Druids don't many offensive Conjuration effects.