Post/Author/DateTime	Post
telldel 12-12-06, 04:16 PM	UPDATED!!!! Some of you asked for more specific information, here it is. Okay, here's the deal. My party consists of four people Level 2 Bard / Level 2 Rogue Level 6 Wizard (I am just 200 XP away from level 7) Level 5 Bard / Level 2 Figher Level 3 Cleric / Level 3 Wizard / Level 1 Mystic Theurge (multi-class) (Yes, we leveled up recently) Party information: We have about 25,000 gp in CASH (currently - this can and will increase). The Bard / Rogue has UMD at 7 or 8 ranks. The Bard / Fighter has one rank. The Cleric's Domains are Healing and Technology (it's a Ptolus thing). We have the "basic" magical gear (+1 weapons and armor, ROP, etc.) but we DO have poisonous litch dust. We have several party members with high knowledge checks such as local, religion, arcana, as well as gather information, diplomacy, sense motive, and bluff. Each category is roughly +8 to 12 The wizard's primary focus is making magical items. He has scribe scroll, craft magical arms and armor, craft construct, and craft wonderous item. Now stop laughing because we have no tanks. Here's the situation - The other day, we kicked down a door to find a level 19 "wizard" or sorcerer (one or the other - not really sure). The "wizard" escaped by a teleport spell, and we were lucky he was unprepared for our interruption. We knew he was high level because 1) the spell he used and 2) the fact the the DM said there was no classification on the CR table for this character. Information we know of the "wizard": 1) He may or may not be multi-class (sorcerer? wizard? something else?) 2) He's a coward - his first impulse is to cast teleport and run. 3) He's a big wig in a chaos cult. 4) He has spent a LOT of skill points in various chaositech / surgery skills. He is called THE SURGEON IN THE SHADOWS and he basically kidnaps young people and adds body parts to them and morphs them, Frankenstein style. 5) He has an entire cult of followers at his command. A lot of these followers have been mutated willingly. 6) He, himself, has been mutated or had chaositech added to his body - he had all sorts of blades and floating orbs hanging around him. Now here's my question - How could my party prepare for another encounter with this guy so we can take him down next time? Stop laughing again. For those of you who are familiar with Ptolus, he had a TON of chaositech all over him as well. What's the best way for low level characters to take down a 19th level wizard or 19th level sorcerer? ANY helpful suggestions would be appreciated. NOTE - I am looking for SUGGESTIONS. Hiding, running, begging, or fleeing are not SUGGESTIONS on how to BEAT him. I realize that the odds are long, but I want to be prepared for when/if we meet this guy again. WHO YA GONNA TELL? TELLDEL
aziraphale60 12-12-06, 04:18 PM	if that level 19 caster is played even semi-intelligently, there's now way you can possibly take him down with 4 level 6 characters. i'd suggest asking for DM intervention of some sort.
Tevish Szat 12-12-06, 04:19 PM	become pun-pun. against a 19th level character, you are all basically out of luck.
Witch 12-12-06, 04:21 PM	If you can get him by surprise? Grapple him, then pin him. As soon as you can. It shouldn't be too difficult with his low strength & BAB, and it'll disable his spellcasting.
Andion Isurand 12-12-06, 04:25 PM	The enemy of my enemy is my friend? Have your bards use Bardic Knowledge and Gather Information to discover if this might apply to your advantage.
IdleAltruism 12-12-06, 04:29 PM	The entire party has to shoot him with sleep poison and hope he goes down. Bind and gag him then finish him off.
ZomB 12-12-06, 04:39 PM	You have to overwhelm him in a surprise round or you are all dead. You normally can't even consider winning against a CR more than 8 levels higher than you. But your one advantage is there is only one of him and one of you might get the jump on him. Knowing what you are facing and his weakness is the key. Though I have to ask how you can possibly know his level?
sorites 12-12-06, 04:58 PM	If you can get him by surprise? Grapple him, then pin him. As soon as you can. It shouldn't be too difficult with his low strength & BAB, and it'll disable his spellcasting. Sounds like a good plan. Of course, the party has no fighters, and the 19th-level wizard will have a BAB of +9. Their best grappler is probably the 6th-level bard with a BAB of +4. Assuming the bard is Medium size, you could cast Bull's Strength and Enlarge Person on him. He'd have a Grapple bonus of at least +11 (plus whatever Str bonus the bard has naturally). As long as the wizard has no tricks up his sleeves (unlikely), you might be able to grapple and pin him. Of course, at such a high level, he may have metamagic feats that allow him to cast even while grappled (Eschew Materials and Still Spell come to mind).
AlanBruce 12-12-06, 05:04 PM	Seriously reconsider taking on a foe like that. A 19th level caster is beyond the scope of a party of 6th level characters. If played in an intelligent manner, said wizard will be expecting your every move through various divinations. Even if you track him down to his keep, he will not engage directly. Expect to fend off his summoned minions, if not gated. If, by any miracle you are able to slay them all, chances are your resources will be seriously depleted by then (as well as hp). All the wizard has to do is teleport safely away from you and proceed to cast a maximized evocation... game over.
Mindolin 12-12-06, 05:17 PM	My advice? Apologize for the "mistake", and don't be too proud to grovel in character. Or out of character, whatever works. There is no way you can win against someone who is capable of altering reality as he sees fit, unless you are likewise capable. And at level six, you are not so lucky. Hopefully, the DM/Wizard will show mercy. I'ld start making new characters just in case, though. AlanBruce, it doesn't even have to be maximized. After defeating anything the wizard can summon, gate in, or call, a single Magic Missile spell would have a good chance of killing them, mazimized or not.
MechMage 12-12-06, 05:22 PM	The enemy of enemy is a good idea. I recemend waiting untill he runs out of spells fighting someone else, then catch him by surprize (a challenge in itself), or catch him in an anti-magic field (a greater challange in it self). If you succeed, you'll gain a third of a level, so it may be worth the risk.
Chie 12-12-06, 05:51 PM	My advice is to find out as much as you can about the wizard.Then once you have all your knowledge,approach his worst enemy and give him the information you have and get him to use it to kill the wizard for you.Or if he has no enemies,try to frame him for some crime with the local mages guild or church that has a lot of ovber-zealous paladins.Basically figure out a way to sick something bigger and meaner on him than you are.
CaoSlayer 12-12-06, 05:57 PM	Very easy, take a silence scroll and maybe a dimensional door one, so the wizard can DD everyone to the wizard, have a bard use silence and gapple him. gapple + silence = mage pwned. Seriously, dont mess with the wizard yet, he can summon creatures stronger than the whole party.
IdleAltruism 12-12-06, 06:04 PM	Silence=will save, vs a 19th level wizard good luck. A 6th level party catching a 19th level with his pant down would be more then difficult if not impossible Unless they all happen to be cybernetic ninja half dragon vampiric elves with boots of ultimate sneakyness. There best bet is to either forget it or hope the wizard is really cocky, really really cocky.
telldel 12-12-06, 06:25 PM	:ahem: Look, I appreciate your "helpful" comments, but I've got to tell you... You all are WEAK! WEAK, I say! Run away? Grovel? Flee? I didn't want advice on how to live and be safe! I wanted real, solid, tangible advice on how my party can take down this guy! I mean, he's only a WIZARD! How hard can he be? He has, what, 60 HP MAX with a base 13 AC? PLUS he's limited to whatever spells he has memorized and not cast for the day... You guys are talking about summoning, etc... well, that's great, but a summoned creature doesn't come into existance until the NEXT round. That gives the party and entire round to try and ruin a spell... I like the suggestions about sleep, silence, anti-magic, grappling, etc... Give me more of that stuff! COME ON people! Think outside the box! I need to know what SPECIFIC resources, hirelings, materials, and/or plans I need to kill this "minor annoyance"!! Isn't this the same crowd that can somehow figure out how to bend any rule and warp any principle of gaming? THINK! WHO YA GONNA TELL? TELLDEL
Merestil Haye 12-12-06, 06:49 PM	I mean, he's only a WIZARD! How hard can he be? He has, what, 60 HP MAX with a base 13 AC? PLUS he's limited to whatever spells he has memorized and not cast for the day...A 19th level wizard with less than 16 Con would raise my eyebrows, by the time you've factored in starting abilities, enhancement items and Wishes. He'll have 90 or even more. As for his base AC : he's likely to have something in the 20s. You guys are talking about summoning, etc... well, that's great, but a summoned creature doesn't come into existance until the NEXT round. That gives the party and entire round to try and ruin a spell...You'll never have a chance. He's been alerted now. He'll be waiting for you. He won't fight fair. Superior Invisibility so you can't detect him (well, you might bump into him if he's really stupid), Shapechange to shift into choker form, then before you're even aware you're in his presence two of you die for no reason. (It's called Power Word Kill). You get a round then he Disintegrates one of you and finishes off the other at his leisure. I like the suggestions about sleep, silence, anti-magic, grappling, etc... Give me more of that stuff! COME ON people! Think outside the box! I need to know what SPECIFIC resources, hirelings, materials, and/or plans I need to kill this "minor annoyance"!! Isn't this the same crowd that can somehow figure out how to bend any rule and warp any principle of gaming? THINK! Were I DMing, two of you would be missing in the morning. I'm sure he has ways to kill minor annoyances. He won't even get xp for you.
IdleAltruism 12-12-06, 06:55 PM	Please don't respond like this "You all are WEAK! WEAK, I say! Run away? Grovel? Flee? I didn't want advice on how to live and be safe!" its rude. These people are giving you logical advice. Any real 19th level wizard would kill your party if they were twice their current level. A base 19th level wizard has 23 ac thats just buttstock. The only way you could kill him is if the DM really doesn't know what they're doing or custom tailored the encounter. Half the wizards aresenal could kill your party or make him invulnerable to your efforts in one round. Lets not even talk about magical gear. My suggestion is poison lots of it and hope for dumb luck, but if the DM is running the NPC even slightly intelligent that won't work.
Deep Blue 9000 12-12-06, 07:14 PM	The plan with the grappler is your only hope to beat him in a fight. I'd also have silence cast on an item everyone in the party is holding. Then just surround him and start stabbing once he's grappled. But if he gets a single action, you're all dead: Wail of the Banshee, Horrid Wilting, Chain Lightning, Evard's Black Tentacles, etc. Personally, I'd go with the groveling.
Esponer 12-12-06, 07:26 PM	A 19th level wizard/sorcerer could be anything at all. Anything. It's not realistically possible to develop a strategy that works against "a 19th level wizard/sorcerer". If it happens to be a 19th level wizard/sorcerer with no protections or divinations whatsoever, no more than 60 hit points, poor initiative, low intellect (based on his behaviour that is, not ability scores) and no useful spells memorised, then you could stand a chance with grappling as previously mentioned. Silence will be of a little use to you. Wizards/sorcerers of this level need 1 standard action to annihilate your party: that leaves them 1 move action to calmly walk out of the area of effect silence. Most likely, they don't even need to do this. If you must fight, go with grappling if you have no ability to gain further information. Try to avoid fighting, however. As I said at the beginning of this post, a 19th level wizard/sorcerer could be anything at all. It's not possible to develop a good strategy knowing only this. For instance, he could use divination spells and activate foresight with celerity prepared, along with the spells he needs to actually kill you (plus time stop if he wishes). With such a set up, your party has basically no way of killing him. Anything you attempt will quite probably result in you all simultaneously combusting whilst the wizard doesn't even seem to be on the same plane anymore. Not that he ever really was there in the first place. (Alluding to astral projection, foresight, celerity, time stop, delayed blast fireball, plane shift.)
Gaelro_Nailo 12-12-06, 07:43 PM	A 19th level wizard who wants to kill a 6th level party will kill it. Chaind lighting, delay blast fireball, stoneskin, globe of invulnerability, acid fog, symbol of death, power word kill,iron body, mass hold monster, GATE, Meteor Swarm, and the list gose on and on. Need i say more? Best bet is to find help or beg for your life, and be a very good at groveling.
Blaze_the_Dragon 12-12-06, 07:53 PM	I've got the perfect solution... And it's a great way for a 6th level party to beat a 19th level Wizard... ENCOUNTERS!! For the love of god...Every good villian has henchmen...And as long as that wizard has henchmen...And a teleport spell...He won't even look at the heros...Considering them BUGS....And well so...Because his LOW LEVEL SPELLS COULD KILL THEM!! Oh...Or you could give them every single magical item you can get your fithy little paws on....
Blaze_the_Dragon 12-12-06, 07:57 PM	He won't even get xp for you. Point set match.
Gaelro_Nailo 12-12-06, 08:01 PM	Originally Posted by telldel COME ON people! Think outside the box! I need to know what SPECIFIC resources, hirelings, materials, and/or plans I need to kill this "minor annoyance"!! And when was a 19th level wiz/sor a "minor annoyance" to a 6th level party? Heck i dont even think it would be one to a 10th level party
Blaze_the_Dragon 12-12-06, 08:04 PM	I got it...Anotuehr way that 6th level party could beat a 19th Level Wizard/Sorcerer.... If each one was a great Wyrm Dragon with 6 class levels..
Nyat 12-12-06, 08:05 PM	:I mean, he's only a WIZARD! How hard can he be? He has, what, 60 HP MAX with a base 13 AC? PLUS he's limited to whatever spells he has memorized and not cast for the day... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Man, that has to be my favorite post of the day. Aside from the fact that you got his possible stats completely and utterly wrong I enjoyed how you note that he is "only" one of the most powerful classes in the game. Judging from your group setup (two bards? seriously?) and the your lack of understanding of caster power levels I'm gonna guess your new at the game (if your not, I apologize). Your best bet if you want to survive would be to do whatever it takes to not fight him. If your hell bent on fighting him your only chances of success are 1) Your DM completely fails at playing the mage properly (you catch him sleeping, he prepares ray of frost in all of his spell slots, he doesn't kill your entire group in the first round of combat, you are able to catch him by surprise again, he stats out the mage as you thought he would be) 2) Your DM uses critical fumbles and the mage rolls so many natural 1s that he spontaniously implodes 3) Your DM never intends for you to actually win the fight and it was all a set up for a plot device. You should consider it a miracle that you lived through your first encounter with him. Did he not have a single fireball spell prepped with which to kill your entire group in one shot?
Manyfist 12-12-06, 08:06 PM	Hmm.. why are you going against this guy? You'd be alot safer and less dead if you just kiss arse.
telldel 12-12-06, 08:06 PM	WOW. I'm really surprised. No one is even giving this a go. So, basically, what I'm hearing from you all is that this is "impossible and not even worth trying" and that I should "give up and roll a new character." This is a CHALLENGE! You're telling me that now one has any good, solid, specific ideas out there? They may be desperate, and yes, the mage could kill us all easily but let's try to make the odds the best they can be! How about this idea - Wait until he's gone, then sneak into his house and steal his spellbook (and any other scrolls or powerful magical items). Wait 24 hours so that the spells he has memorized disappear, then return and kill him! Chances are he doesn't have a complete duplicate spellbook (what, with the cost of scribing a 9th level spell). He'd have very few (if any) spells memorized and would be vulnerable. The above scenario is just one possibility. IT IS POSSIBLE! I realize the odds are slim, luck would have to be with the party, etc... But I believe it can be done! Are there any magical items that would be useful in upping the odds in the combat? Doesn't ANYBODY read Knights of the Dinner Table? Where's my "Brian" - that person that can tweak the rules to his advantage in ANY situation? WHO YA GONNA TELL? TELLDEL
Blaze_the_Dragon 12-12-06, 08:12 PM	WOW. I'm really surprised. No one is even giving this a go. So, basically, what I'm hearing from you all is that this is "impossible and not even worth trying" and that I should "give up and roll a new character." This is a CHALLENGE! You're telling me that now one has any good, solid, specific ideas out there? They may be desperate, and yes, the mage could kill us all easily but let's try to make the odds the best they can be! How about this idea - Wait until he's gone, then sneak into his house and steal his spellbook (and any other scrolls or powerful magical items). Wait 24 hours so that the spells he has memorized disappear, then return and kill him! Chances are he doesn't have a complete duplicate spellbook (what, with the cost of scribing a 9th level spell). He'd have very few (if any) spells memorized and would be vulnerable. The above scenario is just one possibility. IT IS POSSIBLE! I realize the odds are slim, luck would have to be with the party, etc... But I believe it can be done! Are there any magical items that would be useful in upping the odds in the combat? Doesn't ANYBODY read Knights of the Dinner Table? Where's my "Brian" - that person that can tweak the rules to his advantage in ANY situation? WHO YA GONNA TELL? TELLDEL Any 19th level wizard who doesn't have his Grimore guarded by contingent Alarm/Summon Monster 9 spells is a douche and shouldn't have lived as lone as he did... At 19th level...A wizard will know your coming to kill him before you enter the town...He's used a divination spell to watch you and has your best friend charmed with a knife to your back... Listen...There was a reason people created the CR system...So you would be able to tell that a level 19 ANYTHING...Will beat a CR 6...Without freakish dice rolls./
Manyfist 12-12-06, 08:13 PM	WOW. I'm really surprised. No one is even giving this a go. So, basically, what I'm hearing from you all is that this is "impossible and not even worth trying" and that I should "give up and roll a new character." This is a CHALLENGE! You're telling me that now one has any good, solid, specific ideas out there? They may be desperate, and yes, the mage could kill us all easily but let's try to make the odds the best they can be! How about this idea - Wait until he's gone, then sneak into his house and steal his spellbook (and any other scrolls or powerful magical items). Wait 24 hours so that the spells he has memorized disappear, then return and kill him! Chances are he doesn't have a complete duplicate spellbook (what, with the cost of scribing a 9th level spell). He'd have very few (if any) spells memorized and would be vulnerable. The above scenario is just one possibility. IT IS POSSIBLE! I realize the odds are slim, luck would have to be with the party, etc... But I believe it can be done! Are there any magical items that would be useful in upping the odds in the combat? Doesn't ANYBODY read Knights of the Dinner Table? Where's my "Brian" - that person that can tweak the rules to his advantage in ANY situation? WHO YA GONNA TELL? TELLDEL Lvl 19 Wiz/Sorc would probly have his spellbook on a Demiplane, that only he can go. Powerful Arcanists don't live in a house, they live inside a Magic Fortress. All it takes is a Metamagic wand, and only 1 charge can TPK you. Unless you know where the guy lives if he lives on the Material Plane at all, if you can avoid the Alert spells placed alround his crib. THEN some how avoid his Divination spells then you might stand... hmm... 2 rounds before he gets bored of you and kills all you and rise your bodies as his undead minons.
IdleAltruism 12-12-06, 08:13 PM	Any decently intelligent wizards house would either be full of traps and minions or on his own plane via 9th level spell. Spells don't go away after 24 hours and he still has magic items(a wand of fireball would kill you all and just about any staff means a quicker death). The odds aren't slim there nothing. There is no chance for you to win on your own vs a half decent NPC wizard, thats why his CR is impossible for characters twice your level. There are plenty of magic items to up the odds but none are within your reach of aquiring.
aelryinth 12-12-06, 08:21 PM	DC 20 Concentration check to cast in a grapple if you don't need to worry about gestures for the spell. ==Aelryinth
Gaelro_Nailo 12-12-06, 08:27 PM	Its not like i dont like a challance just like any other DnD player, its just aginst that kind of power at 6th level, theres no way you can in the RAW rules. Unless you can sneak into his home (unlikly do to the first level spell alarm), get pass his servent and/or appentice, (and tell me what wizard dont that level dont have them), and get pass his familer (i know some wiz/sor dont have them), and get up to him and performs a coup de grace while he is asleep. In the unlicky event that this works (and if it did he needed to die, for being that stubid to allow the above to work) yall lose. If i was that wiz/sor i wouldnt kill yall, i would geas yall to serve me for a year and a day :evillaugh
Nyat 12-12-06, 08:28 PM	DC 20 Concentration check to cast in a grapple if you don't need to worry about gestures for the spell. ==Aelryinth So with 22 ranks + con modifier + anything else he may have, he's pretty much safe if he has any non-verbal spells (power word: kill for instance). Not to mention his unbuffed grapple is in all likelyhood higher than the groups unbuffed grapple.
Chie 12-12-06, 08:32 PM	Like I said,your only real hope is to somehow get him in trouble with something bigger and meaner than he is.And just doing that without him finding out about it and tearing the souls from your bodies will be more than enough of a challenge for your team.
IceFractal 12-12-06, 08:41 PM	Also, you mentioned he has a lot of Chaositech "enhancements". From what I remember of Chaositech, that probably includes some nasty stuff like built-in poison, scythe claws, and whatnot. Which means he could probably kill you without even using magic. But hey, since you asked, here's a way to kill him. 1) Find a fairly tall and very sturdy building. 2) Get a really, really heavy boulder up on the roof of it. 3) Wait till he walks past and push the boulder onto him. Assuming that he's improbably foolish enough not to use any divinations or contingencies, happens to be walking right past the building, doesn't see you on the roof, and fails his reflex save, the boulder should kill him. Now you better hope he doesn't have a "get back from the dead" contingency, which he probably does.
Chie 12-12-06, 08:45 PM	If you have a lot of money to burn you could always pay a high level mage to cast a wish spell on your behalf and then wish him out of existence.Of course wishes tend to back fire,but then you did want a challenge.
Reversefigure4 12-12-06, 08:48 PM	How about this idea - Wait until he's gone, then sneak into his house and steal his spellbook... Aside from the numerous already pointed out flaws with just waltzing in and taking his spellbook, try this little one: Even completely and utterly ignoring his ability to cast spells altogether, the guy is still a substantial challenge for you. He has better HP, better saves, better BAB, better stats. Your best melee monster in the group has 3/4 BAB and a d6 hit dice. One on one in a melee fight, the wizard will probably kill him with just a simple 1gp dagger. That's ignoring his spells, and the fact that he has 19th level gear! However, since the whole scenario appears to be a thought exercise (it was helpful of the guy to wear his "Hi, I'm a 19th level wizard" T-shirt, otherwise you'd never have known), the answer should be "Change DMs, and use CR-appropriate challenges". Do I win anything for getting it right?
Gaelro_Nailo 12-12-06, 08:51 PM	Sure pick :twocents: or :cookie: or :dragon:
telldel 12-12-06, 08:53 PM	Okay, okay, okay... Man, you're all nay-sayers... you know that? So, Mr. Negative... At what level COULD we try to take this guy down with a reasonable chance of success? Once we get to THAT level, what strategies, items, etc. should we use to maximize our chances? TELL
telldel 12-12-06, 08:56 PM	[QUOTE=IceFractal;10899027] But hey, since you asked, here's a way to kill him. 1) Find a fairly tall and very sturdy building. 2) Get a really, really heavy boulder up on the roof of it. 3) Wait till he walks past and push the boulder onto him. QUOTE] Now THIS GUY I like! That's the kind of thinking I'm looking for! YES!:D TELL
Gaelro_Nailo 12-12-06, 08:58 PM	I would say if just by himself in the open, 12+ If yall are attacking him in his home, 17+ and remember by the time yall are 17+ he would of gotten stronger, even if just a little. Use plenty of time gathering information of the dude, finding out when he leaves, who his friends are, his enemys are. and hope the DM isnt like my dad or you will die very fast.
IdleAltruism 12-12-06, 09:00 PM	around 15-16 for an average party, try to disentagrate him always a fun tactic. Two bards is probly one to many bards to try to take encounters your level. Pray he doesn't gain any levels while you gain 10 and hope he doesn't use shapechange or pristmatc sphere.
User5127 12-12-06, 09:06 PM	ok, I will tell you how to beat this 19th level caster. seriously it can be done. but you have to prepare a few things in advance first. 1) tell the dm to make all rolls, attacks, etc in the open. 2) grab a save or die scroll. (on for each character would be best) 3) hope to god you get him in a surprise round 4) each of you cast the spell. on a 1 he fails and dies. so you have 4 consecutive 5% chances to win. 5) after that surprise round, beg the dm for a free action to beg forgivness form the mage. 6) die horribly and painfully. as well: ANY 19th level mage worth his spellbook will have already had foresight cast on him. and if the DM allowed the spell compendium he should have that other one that lets the wizards act first in combat. if he has those two spells on him, you get smoked before you can even blink. i'm serious. 8 CR difference its a near impossible challenge already. you are going for a 13CR difference. thats a death wish. hate to tell you. but the good news is you have a 5% chance to kill him. GL
IdleAltruism 12-12-06, 09:10 PM	Thats assuming they all have use magic device and can actualy get it to cast from a scroll.
angryman 12-12-06, 09:37 PM	OK, I have an 18th level wizard, almost entirely "PHB core friendly". And I'm telling you, a party of level 6 adventurers, no matter HOW organised, could beat me, barring some kind of DM sleight of hand. 1) If a group of people charges in, and forces me to Teleport away, you can be damn sure I'll find out who you are. I'll find out where you sleep and what you're thinking. I'll find out your favourite breakfast cereal and what your weaknesses are. (well, except from just being level 6) 2) I'll be the one ambushing you, actually. I'll pop in and just cast Horrid Wilting or something equally violent. Can you take 18d6 damage? (54 average & make a death save) 3) If I'm real nice and I don't want to kill you, I'll approach you disguised and find out your motives If you do intend to kill me (and you do), then see point 2. 4) Hell, I could cast Greater Sphere of Invulnerability and be totally immune to every spell you can cast. You're all casters? Ohh, that sucks... 5) As for grapples, look at Dimension Door and tell me what its components are...
risner 12-12-06, 10:02 PM	No one is even giving this a go. steal his spellbook (and any other scrolls or powerful magical items). Chances are he doesn't have a complete duplicate spellbook If you win this combat, find a new DM. He can't properly play monsters. Your steal spellbook idea won't work. He is a Wizard. He won't lose his spells until casted or he "prepares" his spells again. Changes are 100% he will have many duplicate spellbooks. If he doesn't, again find a new DM. Reasons why this won't work: 1) I could defeat your party using jujst 4th level spells or lower. 2) I could defeat your party with ONE high level spell (pick from several options.) 3) I could defeat your party with items (never casting a spell from memory.) 4) I could defeat your party with summoned creatures (two 4th level summons should do it or one 5th level.) 5) I could defeat your party even if grappled since I wouldn't play that monster without having a V only Swift casting "get out of grapple free" spell (pick one from many.) In short, there isn't any way possible for you to defeat him legitimately.
CantripN 12-12-06, 10:37 PM	Look, you can't. Really. My 10th level Wizard has 90+ HP, 24 AC and around 50 spell slots a day. I rarely use even one half. Now think how much more powerful a 19th(!) level Wizard is! As is, my Wizard has already killed 2 Huge Dragons (Red & Green) on his own after being surprised. Do you actually think you're more powerful that those? And I'm just 10th level. Not to mention that since I'm an Ultimate Magus, that I can cast as Sorc 4 (CL 11). If you steal my spell book, I'll be limited to Chained 12d6 Scorching Rays. Bummer. Any other PrC will have similar tricks.
MareltEkiran 12-12-06, 11:23 PM	Of course it can be done... Here's how: 1) Find out some place where the wizard will probably show up (bards should have gather information ranks). 2) Place portable hole in said place. 3) Cast Silent Image to cover up the hole by making it look like a piece of ground (uses up one bard). 4) Wait for the wizard to walk by. 5) Cleric casts Silence on himself and charges the wizard, opposite from the direction of the hole. 6) Wizard laughs and uses move-equivalent to walk backwards, out of the silence field in order to blast you to little pieces. 7) Given that he'll be focussed on the cleric, he won't notice the portable hole, until he falls in. 8) Have another party member readied with an action to toss a bag of holding into the portable hole when said wizard falls in. 9) Start counting XP.
Nyat 12-12-06, 11:32 PM	Of course it can be done... Here's how: 1) Find out some place where the wizard will probably show up (bards should have gather information ranks). 2) Place portable hole in said place. 3) Cast Silent Image to cover up the hole by making it look like a piece of ground (uses up one bard). 4) Wait for the wizard to walk by. 5) Cleric casts Silence on himself and charges the wizard, opposite from the direction of the hole. 6) Wizard laughs and uses move-equivalent to walk backwards, out of the silence field in order to blast you to little pieces. 7) Given that he'll be focussed on the cleric, he won't notice the portable hole, until he falls in. 8) Have another party member readied with an action to toss a bag of holding into the portable hole when said wizard falls in. 9) Start counting XP. You do realize that doesn't kill him right? It just sends him to the astral plane, which is only a minor hindrance to a 19th level caster. He'll be back and determined to smash the annoying bastards that have been bugging him (if he's not already).
Capt. Pixel 12-13-06, 12:13 AM	Okay. What are a 19th level Wizard's weaknesses? Unbuffed: Low AC and Touch AC (probably improved by magic devices. ~20-25 AC) Low Saving Throws for Fortitude and Reflex (though they're probably better than your best ST.) Low HP (estimating on the high side ~80-100 HP) Must cast spells (he gets one spell/round which can be interrupted by a coordinated party using Readied Actions) Most spells require verbal components, nearly as many require somatic components. (Most intelligent Wizards have permanent or nearly permanent protections against these weaknesses) Buffed: what weaknesses? (Seriously, this guy could warp reality and more for the next 2 minutes - minimum) What's a good strategy? Hit fast, hit hard, strike to kill. If you don't get the surprise round on this guy, you're not likely to survive his first retaliation. Tactically, your best bet is Surprise. Hit Fast. Immobilize the Wizard with two nets thrown by the Bards, have the Cleric cast Silence on the netted Wizard and have the Party Wizard refocus for a 20 initiative on the next full round. The nets only have to hit the Wizard's Touch AC. With some luck (50/50), one of the Bards will tag the Wizard and hinder his physical movements. The silence spell will severely limit his spell-casting options. Beginning the next full round, the refocused Party Wizard will Ready An Action to cast his most damaging spell at the first attempt by the netted Wizard to cast a spell. This damage should increase the chance that any spell casting might be disrupted by ~40%. The Cleric should Ready An Action to cast his most damaging spell should the Wizard attempt to cast a spell. The Bards should charge into melee and deliver the most damaging attack they can. (maybe 20 points total, if they're lucky?) Pick spells that won't destroy the nets. ;) Touch attack spells are probably your better choice. The Cleric and the Wizard might deliver another 25-30 points total damage, bringing the damage to ~50 HP. NOW, it's 19th level Wizard's turn...... By 11th level, my Wizards have Teleport and the Silent Spell feat. A 6th level spell slot and you can leave most situations as long a you're conscious. **POOF!** Alternatively, the Party's Readied Casters fire when the netted Wizard attempts to cast a 5th level spell. They do ~25 total damage. The Spell Concentration DC ~40. A 19th level Wizard should have a concentration skill of at least 28. On 12 or better, he gets the spell off (45% success). If the Bards are so inclined, Poison that does Save vs Unconsciousness or CON loss are your best bets. Each two points of Constitution are going to cost that Wizard 19 hit points. There's his other ~50 hit points. This guy is near death now. Round 2 There won't be a round 2. He'll be dispatched or you will. Odds: 1/3 success I'm assuming you can achieve Surprise and catch his guy all by himself, that the party holds to the plan and has been fully buffed by spells prior to engagement, and that everyone rolls reasonably well for two rounds. If you succeed, I'd love to hear about it and it'll be one of the most memorable moments of your game. I for one, would be creating my next character, for this one is sure to die that night. I did like the rustic simplicity of the Rock off a Cliff approach. Acme anyone? :cool:
Manic Man 12-13-06, 12:59 AM	I dunno, anyone found any 19th level wizards that are not deliberately weakened without a 36k amulet of health? Or Contingency? Or some immediate action spell? Or some escaping spell aka freedom of movement (item/spell), dimension door (item/spell), etc? Or higher AC than any 6th level PC can hit? So lets say i survive 1 round, anything a bunch of level 6s can do against timestop? prismatic sphere? Heck, wall of force?
Manyfist 12-13-06, 01:25 AM	Lvl 19th Wizard isn't going out in the open that much anymore. He/She is studying most likely prepping for Lichdom. Anyhow, a Smart Wizard (He's 19th Lvl) would already scryed for targets that might harm him Vs a Rag tag party of 6th level adventurers the Wizard would just look at them, and they should start running. Baleful Polymorph the Wizard, Cleric, and the Bards. Not to mention he could just throw up Globe of invulnerability and your party is just been neutralized.
Zathrus 12-13-06, 01:43 AM	what everyone here seems to be forgetting is the almighty power of a high bluff check combined with a coup-de-grace. 6th level Bard, with maxed ranks (a basic requirment, IMHO) and 16 CHA has a +12 to bluff, discounting items, feats, and synergy. wizards only get sense motive cross class, and with will being their favored save they tend to not put as many points into it. IF (and that is a big if) the wizard had maxed ranks and a WIS of 12, we're looking at a +12, putting him on equal foooting with the bard. then all you have to do is gain his trust, be assigned as his personal guards, and cut his throught open with a scythe in his sleep.
Chie 12-13-06, 03:35 AM	what everyone here seems to be forgetting is the almighty power of a high bluff check combined with a coup-de-grace. 6th level Bard, with maxed ranks (a basic requirment, IMHO) and 16 CHA has a +12 to bluff, discounting items, feats, and synergy. wizards only get sense motive cross class, and with will being their favored save they tend to not put as many points into it. IF (and that is a big if) the wizard had maxed ranks and a WIS of 12, we're looking at a +12, putting him on equal foooting with the bard. then all you have to do is gain his trust, be assigned as his personal guards, and cut his throught open with a scythe in his sleep. First off,you mean Diplomacy,not Bluff.Bluff only works for a short term lie.If you want to influence someone long term you need Diplomacy. If he's a 19th level mage,why in the world would he want a 6th level character as one of his trusted guards?Especially a Bard.Anything you could possibly protect him from he could slaughter five times over by wagging his pinky.His guards would include things like iron golems and bound elementals and outsiders.And if he's going to trust you that much (which would take days,if not weeks of game time) I'm fairly certain he'd have used divination on you at some point to see if you were on the level.Otherwise he doesn't deserve to live.
Nitan 12-13-06, 03:45 AM	Reduce his HP to zero. If he keeps trying to come back, I'd use fire and acid just like I'd use on someone else here...seriously...look at some of his other posts and topics...
Archtyrant Terevoth 12-13-06, 03:52 AM	2 bards, a wizard and an inefficient pre-MyTh multiclass? Um... how about you have your bards get together and write out a letter of apology for kicking down the wizard's door, along with a refund for the cost of the door and hope the wizard doesn't come after you, because if he does, you're screwed. You can't win this battle unless your DM plays this wizard like a complete moron. Hell, your group would probably lose if the guy just tried to bludgeon you to death with his staff.
journeyman777 12-13-06, 05:32 AM	You guys give up too easy. Let's examine this logically. To challenge this guy, you need more information. Use your gather information or divinations to find out the following: 1. What class is he? (Whether he can spont metamagics or not is of vital importance) 2. What spells does he favor? (depending on his preferences, you may be able to negate his first responses) 3. What additional options does he have? (feats, magic items, contingencies) 4. What defenses does he rely on? 5. Can you catch him by surprise? It would help if I knew your party's capabilities better. 1. What feats does everyone have? 2. What spells do the bards know? 3. Can the party reliably purchase and use scrolls? Finally, double check with the DM to make sure this guy is fair game. It would be rather pointless to go through all this effort only to find out you destroyed the campaign's story.
Chie 12-13-06, 05:46 AM	You guys give up too easy. Let's examine this logically. To challenge this guy, you need more information. Use your gather information or divinations to find out the following: 1. What class is he? (Whether he can spont metamagics or not is of vital importance) 2. What spells does he favor? (depending on his preferences, you may be able to negate his first responses) 3. What additional options does he have? (feats, magic items, contingencies) 4. What defenses does he rely on? 5. Can you catch him by surprise? It would help if I knew your party's capabilities better. 1. What feats does everyone have? 2. What spells do the bards know? 3. Can the party reliably purchase and use scrolls? Finally, double check with the DM to make sure this guy is fair game. It would be rather pointless to go through all this effort only to find out you destroyed the campaign's story. Well,logically speaking: 1.Whatever casting class he is,he's certain to have a spell that will kill the entire party in one round. 2.Whatever spells he favours...he's going to have at least two memorized that can kill the entire party in one round. 3.For options he's likely to have summoned monsters that can kill you all just by looking at you,magic items that can disintegrate you on the spot,feats a lot tougher than any you have,and lots of life saving contingincies on him just in case you somehow manage to hurt him. 4.For defenses...you probably don't want to know,but at least a 22 AC and save bonuses better than yours from all of his magic items. 5.Can you catch him by surprise?Don't count on it. As for the PC's: 1.Whatever feats they have aren't likely to be powerful enough to do anything but inconvenience him. 2.Any spells the bards know are likely to involve will saves and a great deal of laughter on the part of the wizard when you try to cast them on him. 3.Any scrolls they might have are going to be too low-level to effect him unless they get really lucky. Logically...You are so toast.Intelligence only gets you so far against someone who can make the laws of reality get up an do a jig.
itwasntme 12-13-06, 05:56 AM	i remeber a post like this ... they won by useing Cursed items for the win and Surprize ... REQUIRED lots of work and they had a grappler guy Con 16? i useoly dount see much HP in Wizards i useoly go for Ini so i can go first and cast my spells for these nasty things as my goal is to not Be attacked! And even with my high con im not the greatest HP guy ac 20=good vs low level guys I dount remeber what Cursed items won the day but ill look it up ... but i have to ask ... can you get cursed items? what are your options? How strong of magic world are you in?
Esponer 12-13-06, 06:01 AM	Telldel, please heed my earlier posts. A 19th level wizard/sorcerer could be anything at all. At that sort of level a primary spellcaster could have any power. He could live on a demiplane. He could have spells he can memorise without use of a spellbook. He could have his spellbook on a demiplane. He's almost certainly using divinations. He's probably using a contingency. He could keep himself almost permanently polymorphed into the form of some sort of terribly powerful monster and actually be a magically empowered fighter, but better. Really. Anything. Until we know the first thing about this 19th level wizard, we can't tell you how to defeat him at any level up until about his level (17-19). At such high levels we could form a vague idea for a strategy which covers all bases. If we knew exactly what his abilities were, it could be possible around level 12-16 (this is, for a party you bring to us and say "here's what we have") depending on how intelligently he's designed and played. But you need level 17-20 to be able to create a build which can accommodate for 80% or more of the possibilities. I can make a 6th level character who can defeat pretty much any 19th level wizard/sorcerer, if I have all official books available to me (however, this is a trivial case, as the character in question would be abusing one or two specific loopholes in the rules that make him able to defeat anything). However, you have a fixed party at 6th level, and you haven't even told us your party's abilities and feats. We have nothing to go by. As far as "cunning strategies" go, unfortunately there is no cunning strategy guaranteed to work against a 19th level wizard/sorcerer. None. He can immediately know when he's under threat, even if the threat hasn't materialised yet and is on another plane of existence, all of his possessions which aren't attended can be on a demiplane which only he can access, he can be immune to scrying, divination and mind-affecting effects, he can always act first under any circumstances, and so on. Let's put it this way. Let's say he does have a house, and you know where it is (stupid, and unlikely). He can set up an alarm, keep some divination spells on him, and the very moment you go anywhere near his house, in the middle of your turn, he teleports to his house and destroys you all. Before you can act. Push a boulder on him? He teleports away and destroys you all, in the middle of your attack. A 19th level wizard/sorcerer can be played badly enough that a seriously optimised (and optimised specifically for this situation), intelligently played 6th level party can defeat him. Just about. But the party would have to have known everything about him from 1st level, and the players would need a lot of books in their hands.
DracoPhoenix 12-13-06, 08:07 AM	What's the best way for low level characters to take down a 19th level wizard or 19th level sorcerer? ANY helpful suggestions would be appreciated. WHO YA GONNA TELL? TELLDEL Probably not quite as useful as the above posts or what you want to hear but: Level. To level 15 at least, if not 20. None of you have better than D6 hp (even the 3D8,3D4). Your very unlikely to overcome his SR (he's a wizard). Your unlikely to make any saves against his spells. *cough*dominate*cough* If he casts fireball, your dead, instantly. If he decides to play with you (dominate, self inflicted fireballs etc, run through all your spells / songs / day), your dead, he gets a laugh. Remember how, at around L8 an your DM sends a pack of L3 kobolds at you, one might have even been a mage? Kinda like that, except he has meteor storm, and your the kobolds. Your best bet the next time you see him is to apologies for barging in on him, or better yet, hope he doesn't recognise you :).
cog_n_taz 12-13-06, 08:29 AM	how bout this... sudden empowered maximized (nick some rods if necessary) enervation/touch of idiocy n stuff? I am going to assume that this is not your DM trying to TPK you, and that you just play FR(I.E. level20-is-compulsory-land)
journeyman777 12-13-06, 08:30 AM	You assume too much.Well,logically speaking: 1.Whatever casting class he is,he's certain to have a spell that will kill the entire party in one round. And he's going to throw his top spells at these weaklings? If he's that twitchy we can just charm someone else into provoking him. There's one less spell to deal with. 2.Whatever spells he favours...he's going to have at least two memorized that can kill the entire party in one round.Really? If only for political reasons, he probably can't afford to fire off AoE spells in the middle of a city. Concealment is easy to come by (to force miss chances on rays). Even something like chain lightning can be mostly negated with a CL boosted "protection from energy". If you can guess what his first attack will be, you can take steps to minimize it. The OP didn't ask for a guarantee, just a decent chance. 3.For options he's likely to have summoned monsters that can kill you all just by looking at you,magic items that can disintegrate you on the spot,feats a lot tougher than any you have,and lots of life saving contingincies on him just in case you somehow manage to hurt him.Summons take a full round, magic items need to be drawn, feats probably just improve his spellcasting, and contigencies are only useful in very specific circumstances. Knowing the options lets you plan for them one by one. 4.For defenses...you probably don't want to know,but at least a 22 AC and save bonuses better than yours from all of his magic items. 22 AC is easy to beat if that's all he's got. Frankly, even his saves can probably be minimized or avoided entirely. 5.Can you catch him by surprise? Don't count on it.Last I checked, spot and listen aren't strong points for the average wizard. He can't even cast an immediate action spell while flatfooted. If they can get a surprise round and have already covered all the other questions, they may have a fighting chance. As for the PC's: 1.Whatever feats they have aren't likely to be powerful enough to do anything but inconvenience him. 2.Any spells the bards know are likely to involve will saves and a great deal of laughter on the part of the wizard when you try to cast them on him. 3.Any scrolls they might have are going to be too low-level to effect him unless they get really lucky.Now you are just guessing. Logically...You are so toast.Intelligence only gets you so far against someone who can make the laws of reality get up an do a jig.And yet the CHAR OP boards are full of characters that can solo CRs way outside their lv. Challenge ratings are an estimate based on average parties that do not know in advance what exactly they are facing that day and need to conserve enough resources to get through 3-5 fights. 1. This isn't an average party. (It may or may not be above average, but it certainly isn't average.) 2. They will know exactly what they are up against. (the entire point of the questions) 3. This is presumably the first fight of the day and they can't afford to hold back. CR doesn't apply to this fight. Really, If you don't have any useful suggestions, one wonders why you bother posting on this thread at all.
cog_n_taz 12-13-06, 08:37 AM	now, I just had some ideas... 1: tasha's hideous laughter. This is a joke, but if you land it? By all means, coup de grace. 2: what only requires a touch attack(relativly easy), ignores SR and allows no save for 60 damage? That's right, an empowered sudden maximized sudden twinned lesser orb of x! Alternatively, a sudden maximized twinned regular orb of x(preferably force). Yeah, my plans all rely on sudden metamagic, but it's all I can come up with...
Chie 12-13-06, 09:04 AM	Actually the assumption is yours. He doesn't have to use a high level spell to kill them all.One use of Scorching Ray has a fair chance of killing one of them alone.As for firing off spells in the middle of a city...if you're fighting him in a place like that then you can't use anything big either and you'll probably need it more than he does.Besides if you're that close a place where collateral damage is an issue the local authorities might have some questions for you about why you're attacking this guy in broad daylight on a public street. But beyond that,I'd be interested to know how you plan to effectively predict his spell-casting?We're talking about someone who has upwards of fifty spells without using scrolls or wands and even his second level spell likely to kill at least one person.His summons might take round if he hasn't quickened them but it'll summon an elder elemental.And a 22 AC isn't that easy to beat if you're a sixth level party with no one who is an actual warrior,and keep in mind that was just the low end number,his actual AC would probably be higher by then.With divination he probably already knows they're after him. And a lot of the CharOp stuff you're referring involves things that most GM's wouldn't let you normally do. As for why I post,first off I offered a solution earlier in the thread.My solution involved defeating the wizard without engaging him in a fight,a much more sensible approach to the problem.Unlike the obvious futility of a straight-out fight.Secondly there is little need for such a borish attitude on your part.Everyone else has said more or less the same thing that I have just said. Might I suggest in the future that you read everything someone has said carefully and consider it before you display such ill- manners.
Bladegeek 12-13-06, 09:07 AM	Since you only have two bards and a cleric that can swing anyting your toast. I would run. However if your really brave you need to pin him fast. He most likely has low strength and maybe his Dex is not that good. If you can not pin him or grapple him fast your dead. You need a tank for this job.
AlanBruce 12-13-06, 09:57 AM	After reading all these threads regarding the topic, all I can ask is... Why, o WHY, would any DM throw an enemy like that at a party of 6th level? Unless the group enjoys being miserable, there is no fun on this endeavour except for the DM, who now has a nearly unlimited way to destroy a party of low level characters. Sure, the cinematics should be fun, but spending the rest of the session creating new characters won't be. Then again, I have met players who enjoy unneccessary and excessive pain wrought upon their low level PCs.
CaoSlayer 12-13-06, 10:30 AM	Silence=will save only if you target the wizard, if you target a willing dude, an item or a point in space, there is not save. By the way... What are the chances of the wizard failling to the mighty fascinate/sugestion combo? umm, 9 ranks +2 from instrument +2 from aid from the other bard +5 from 20 charisma... DC 1d20 +18 ever a wizard could fall on his fascination... Then he have to pass 6 sugestion checks DC 18 (10 + half level = 3 +5 from charisma) in the worst case of the wizard having a 18 or greater will save, the bard have still a 1-(19/20^6)=26% chances to pull a sugestion, if he works a good sugestion such as the typical "oh. mighty wizard of great power, could you show us all your mighty power by casting all your spells at that rock?" then you maybe can win the fight with a single level 6 bard.
Manyfist 12-13-06, 12:09 PM	Silence so what? If you're inside a city and you attack him out right, you wouldn't have to worry about the wizard. You'd have to worry about the swarms of guards on you in a sec. Don't attack the wizard, Even with Poor BAB at lvl 19 he still can melee you down. Silence doesn't affect wands, one Metamagic Wand of Sorching... TPK. edit: Caoslayer: Sure fancinate is alright, but when he could of perpared a quickened Dominate/Charm/Mass Charm, then fancinate is worthless if your under his control.
Vorpal_Bunny 12-13-06, 12:45 PM	What about Waves of Exhaustion, no save and your SR cannot be near high enough to worry about. Now you are at -6 str and dex, move at half speed, gives the wizard time for other fun stuff. Anything that does 19d6 damage about 66 damage on average, save for 33 at 6th level that is most likely a TPK right there in one spell. Black Tentacles +27 grapple checks, even Reverse Gravity for 19 rounds is a very scary spell. You could stock up on "arrows of wizard slaying" and hope you can surprise him :D
CaoSlayer 12-13-06, 02:19 PM	Silence so what? If you're inside a city and you attack him out right, you wouldn't have to worry about the wizard. You'd have to worry about the swarms of guards on you in a sec. Don't attack the wizard, Even with Poor BAB at lvl 19 he still can melee you down. Silence doesn't affect wands, one Metamagic Wand of Sorching... TPK. edit: Caoslayer: Sure fancinate is alright, but when he could of perpared a quickened Dominate/Charm/Mass Charm, then fancinate is worthless if your under his control. Yes the wizard can win in a single round but still Im giving options that can work if everything goes right. I know his tactic have a lots of holes including mindblank and a good contigency. Quickened dont work better than a regular one because he still have to win iniciative...
Ian Demagi 12-13-06, 02:21 PM	Well...First Craft 4 wands with the Hail of Stone spell-hope the Bards have maxed out UMD. This should get around many of his copious defenses. This should do about 50 points of damage on avg. There is no to hit, no save, no resistance. So Mr Arch Mage is probably going to take it if you can get the drop on him. You may have to hit him twice. You probably need to get a high level wizard to teleport you into the place where he is, and you all probabaly want to be greater invis'd, flying, and non detectioned. That being said-you probably will not live through this because he will be scrying you and know what you are about. Has the DM read the encounter/challange level guidelines????
Eikcuf 12-13-06, 02:54 PM	con damage plain and simple as a caster he will have a terrible fort save. at 0 con you die thats what i would do anyway
Ian Demagi 12-13-06, 04:16 PM	Most of that party does not have access to con damaging spells at least of the books that I useand the levels they are at. They have 2 Bards, a Wiz, and a Cleric/Wiz. As for the party make up? I can't figure that one one. No tank no big deal, but is the Cleric/Wizard going for True Necromancer? What about the Mage? 2 Bards- one Bard too many, IMHO! Could one convert to Warlock or Sorceror? Ian.
Esponer 12-13-06, 04:36 PM	You assume too much. And he's going to throw his top spells at these weaklings? If he's that twitchy we can just charm someone else into provoking him. There's one less spell to deal with. With a 13 level gap, he need not use his "top spells" to kill the entire party. But as a 19th level arcane spellcaster, he is completely free to burn all his resources on one encounter, because he's able to leave the encounter, leave the area, leave reality, until he's rested. Really? If only for political reasons, he probably can't afford to fire off AoE spells in the middle of a city. Concealment is easy to come by (to force miss chances on rays). Even something like chain lightning can be mostly negated with a CL boosted "protection from energy". If you can guess what his first attack will be, you can take steps to minimize it. The OP didn't ask for a guarantee, just a decent chance. He's a 19th level spellcaster: he doesn't necessarily care about political reasons, depending on the city and how he's played. Seen as he'll almost certainly be the one getting the drop on the players unless the DM plays unrealistically, he can choose the terrain anyway. He has a lot more at his fingertips than chain lightning. Summons take a full round, magic items need to be drawn, feats probably just improve his spellcasting, and contigencies are only useful in very specific circumstances. Knowing the options lets you plan for them one by one. He's a 19th level arcane spellcaster. Therefore against people like this he doesn't need to worry about using too many spells (he can leave the plane afterwards to recover), and so he's free to use time stop. Thus full round durations are irrelevant. Contingencies like "teleport if I would be harmed" aren't all that specific. And we have to bear in mind here: it's far more likely that he'll get the drop on you. 22 AC is easy to beat if that's all he's got. Frankly, even his saves can probably be minimized or avoided entirely. He's a 19th level arcane spellcaster. His AC can be above 40 quite easily if he cares. More than likely though, it'll be being totally untouchable that'll be his defence. Astral projection, for instance. Last I checked, spot and listen aren't strong points for the average wizard. He can't even cast an immediate action spell while flatfooted. If they can get a surprise round and have already covered all the other questions, they may have a fighting chance. We're talking about divination here, not Spot and Listen checks. And if he has foresight, he can cast immediate action spells whilst flat-footed. And if he has celerity, his immediate action spell can translate into more than that. Yes, these are "if"s, and indeed he could be a badly built arcane spellcaster... but we don't know. The point here is that a 19th level arcane spellcaster can be built, easily, such that it's invincible to these characters. And we can't give tips or suggestions when we're basically told, "our enemy is anything from a powerful but stupid wizard to a near demigod, who may or may not specialise in anything, and may or may not favour certain types of attacks or certain strategies". Now you are just guessing. And what's wrong with guessing? That's precisely what the OP is asking! And yet the CHAR OP boards are full of characters that can solo CRs way outside their lv. Challenge ratings are an estimate based on average parties that do not know in advance what exactly they are facing that day and need to conserve enough resources to get through 3-5 fights. Yes, way outside of their level, but a gap of 13 before level 17 without resorting to Manipulate Form is not going to happen, particularly as we're given no data and the party is already formed. I don't think the OP is asking us to rebuild his party from the ground up telling him what feats and class levels to take. 2. They will know exactly what they are up against. (the entire point of the questions) They don't have a clue what they're up against. All they know is that it's a high level arcane spellcaster. This tells them nothing. A high level arcane spellcaster could be a męlée tank. Could be a diviner. Could be a summoner. Could be a necromancer. Could be anything at all that you can imagine. The party has zero information. CR doesn't apply to this fight. Really, If you don't have any useful suggestions, one wonders why you bother posting on this thread at all. The useful suggestion here is that there's little chance, that data must be recollected, and that grappling is the best bet. Between all the respondents we've said just about all that can be said. But it's absolutely vital to convey here that the party knows nothing about the spellcaster and the spellcaster is extremely likely to win here. More importantly, coming up with a strategy is almost pointless because we know nothing about the spellcaster. Grappling probably has the highest of the pathetic success rates, but it's totally negated by far too much.
Ryuu_Tenshi 12-13-06, 05:15 PM	Ok. Not with that party, you ain't, for all the reasons given above. If you -want- to take down a wizard at 6th level with 4 people, go to Charops and ask them. I -know- they can do it -without- resorting to Pun-Pun cheese.
rembrandt44 12-13-06, 05:21 PM	Use scrolls and pray he has less than 150 hp and no contingencies. Scroll of powerword stun should incapacitate him long enough for you to hit him with several scrolls of energy drain. keep doing this until his his level is 0 Meanwhile bards cast scrolls of otto's irrestistable, however wait until he takes at least one level drain so his saves are -2d4. If he has more than 150hp ...prey. This is the tactic I would use.
telldel 12-13-06, 05:24 PM	Okay. What are a 19th level Wizard's weaknesses? Unbuffed: Low AC and Touch AC (probably improved by magic devices. ~20-25 AC) Low Saving Throws for Fortitude and Reflex (though they're probably better than your best ST.) Low HP (estimating on the high side ~80-100 HP) Must cast spells (he gets one spell/round which can be interrupted by a coordinated party using Readied Actions) Most spells require verbal components, nearly as many require somatic components. (Most intelligent Wizards have permanent or nearly permanent protections against these weaknesses) Buffed: what weaknesses? (Seriously, this guy could warp reality and more for the next 2 minutes - minimum) What's a good strategy? Hit fast, hit hard, strike to kill. If you don't get the surprise round on this guy, you're not likely to survive his first retaliation. Tactically, your best bet is Surprise. Hit Fast. Immobilize the Wizard with two nets thrown by the Bards, have the Cleric cast Silence on the netted Wizard and have the Party Wizard refocus for a 20 initiative on the next full round. The nets only have to hit the Wizard's Touch AC. With some luck (50/50), one of the Bards will tag the Wizard and hinder his physical movements. The silence spell will severely limit his spell-casting options. Beginning the next full round, the refocused Party Wizard will Ready An Action to cast his most damaging spell at the first attempt by the netted Wizard to cast a spell. This damage should increase the chance that any spell casting might be disrupted by ~40%. The Cleric should Ready An Action to cast his most damaging spell should the Wizard attempt to cast a spell. The Bards should charge into melee and deliver the most damaging attack they can. (maybe 20 points total, if they're lucky?) Pick spells that won't destroy the nets. ;) Touch attack spells are probably your better choice. The Cleric and the Wizard might deliver another 25-30 points total damage, bringing the damage to ~50 HP. NOW, it's 19th level Wizard's turn...... By 11th level, my Wizards have Teleport and the Silent Spell feat. A 6th level spell slot and you can leave most situations as long a you're conscious. **POOF!** Alternatively, the Party's Readied Casters fire when the netted Wizard attempts to cast a 5th level spell. They do ~25 total damage. The Spell Concentration DC ~40. A 19th level Wizard should have a concentration skill of at least 28. On 12 or better, he gets the spell off (45% success). If the Bards are so inclined, Poison that does Save vs Unconsciousness or CON loss are your best bets. Each two points of Constitution are going to cost that Wizard 19 hit points. There's his other ~50 hit points. This guy is near death now. Round 2 There won't be a round 2. He'll be dispatched or you will. Odds: 1/3 success I'm assuming you can achieve Surprise and catch his guy all by himself, that the party holds to the plan and has been fully buffed by spells prior to engagement, and that everyone rolls reasonably well for two rounds. If you succeed, I'd love to hear about it and it'll be one of the most memorable moments of your game. I for one, would be creating my next character, for this one is sure to die that night. I did like the rustic simplicity of the Rock off a Cliff approach. Acme anyone? :cool: THANK YOU!!!! YOU ARE THE MAN (unlike all the rest of these nay-sayers around here!) We'll prep those actions and be ready to go! TELLDEL
CryoSilver 12-13-06, 05:27 PM	Does your party have infinite resources to invest in this encounter? You have one chance to kill him. If you can't take him down in the surprise round, you die. Plain and simple. In game terms, you have about 4 seconds to make him dead, before you get horribly raped. While I really doubt you can do it, your best bet is tohit him while he is totally unbuffed and preoccupied in something else. Try poisoning him. Any poison with a DC of 24+ has a fair chance of working; if you can hit him with, say, one shuriken each via True Strike with a front loaded (2d6 damage) poison, even if he only fails twice, he'll probably have a score reduced to zero (like Strength, a probable dump stat). You know what though? I'd pay someone to do it for you, so even if theyfail, you aren't screwed because he knows who you are.
telldel 12-13-06, 05:33 PM	i remeber a post like this ... they won by useing Cursed items for the win and Surprize ... REQUIRED lots of work and they had a grappler guy Con 16? i useoly dount see much HP in Wizards i useoly go for Ini so i can go first and cast my spells for these nasty things as my goal is to not Be attacked! And even with my high con im not the greatest HP guy ac 20=good vs low level guys I dount remeber what Cursed items won the day but ill look it up ... but i have to ask ... can you get cursed items? what are your options? How strong of magic world are you in? Ptolus is a VERY magic heavy world. Not quite Eberonn but magic is everywhere and very common.... cursed items shouldn't be a problem. TELLDEL
telldel 12-13-06, 05:38 PM	Has anyone thought about commissioning him to make a magical item and then attacking him while he's in the process of making that magical item? If we attacked at the end of the day, wouldn't his spells (or MOST of his spells) be spent in the creation of the magical item? We'd know where he was, what he was doing, and could surprise him! Perhaps we could somehow poison the coins we paid with... TELLDEL
Eikcuf 12-13-06, 05:38 PM	Not to be raining on the parade, but what makes you think you will encounter this wizard at your current level? A 19th level character of any class is difficult to track down especially a wizard. My best bet is ifyou manage to find him again he'll just do whatever it was that got him out last time.
Damionte 12-13-06, 06:08 PM	Has anyone thought about commissioning him to make a magical item and then attacking him while he's in the process of making that magical item? If we attacked at the end of the day, wouldn't his spells (or MOST of his spells) be spent in the creation of the magical item? We'd know where he was, what he was doing, and could surprise him! Perhaps we could somehow poison the coins we paid with... TELLDEL There are not many magic items that take more than a few spells to create. Actually you're making , well all of us are making a lot of assumptions. I think if any of us can give you a real suggestion on what to do we need to know EXACTLY what your situation is. -Who is the Wizard? -How did you end up surprising him the first time around? -What is his relationship to the characters? -Which of you are the "good" guys him or you? -Was he supposed to be your enemy for this encounter? Or was he some contact NPC who you guys thought you may be able to kill real quick for some fat loot and experience? -Why are you fighting him in the first place? What "exactly" is the mission?!? -What resources does your party have. I mean what do we as your would be think tank have to work with. I mean part of the reason you're getting so many nay-sayer responses is because your situation is too vague. You said this fight was campagn specific, so fill us in on the campagn details. What do we know about this wizard? Is he a reknown specialists? Does he have a publicly known tower? How often is he there? 19th level wizards are not likely to be walking down the street in the open, especially after having been attacked. Do you have a way ot peirce any magical disguises he may have? Do you have any way to hide your own prescence long enough to formulate a plan? HELP US HELP YOU !!
Kendrick 12-13-06, 08:50 PM	Has anyone thought about commissioning him to make a magical item and then attacking him while he's in the process of making that magical item? If we attacked at the end of the day, wouldn't his spells (or MOST of his spells) be spent in the creation of the magical item? We'd know where he was, what he was doing, and could surprise him! Perhaps we could somehow poison the coins we paid with... TELLDEL Why would he accept your commision? He might not even make magic items. Even if he does, how would you find him? How would you approach him without him realizing that you were hostile? How would you make a downpayment on an item expensive enough to be worth his time? And even if you do that, I believe that magic item creation only expends the prerequisite spells each day. So even if you commissioned an item with a lot of prerequisites, he'd still have dozens of high level spells left over every day. There is exactly one way you can ever hope to succeed: If your DM wants you to kill the wizard for plot reasons, and helps you do it. Go ask your DM if he wants the wizard dead right now. If he doesn't promise that he'll fudge the rolls and play the wizard like a retarded chimpanzee to help you beat him, give up and find something a little more fitting for your level and tactical skill - like killing baby kobolds or mugging level 1 commoners.
Manic Man 12-13-06, 10:56 PM	Lets think about this a momemt. What is the chance of a 6th level character dying to 1 level 1 commoner with no armor and a dagger? That chance is still a lot greater than a 19th level dying to four 6th level That said, ignoring common sense here are some ways you can kill the 19th level i) From the DMG hire many many 20th level warriors. They are cheap. Mass attack and hope it works ii) Buy a disjunction scroll, a time stop scroll, a bunch of delayed blast fireball scrolls and pray you can get them off through short term buffs and whatever ( if you have the money) iii) Make Pun Pun iv) Make as many nanomachines as you can
imba_duskblade 12-14-06, 02:47 AM	get the suprise round and then let the group "harm" the wizard with 3 scrolls. One char should then finish the last HP off (cause harm only leaves the wizard with 1 HP). A spell that does not require a save and SR comes to my mind. Its only 1 HP left so it should not be a problem
Newpaintbrush 12-14-06, 03:01 AM	To put this in perspective, let me ask you if a 1st level commoner can defeat, oh say, a hill giant, with, oh say, a rock. No? you say? But I argue that first, I'm going to have a couple of storm giants come down and knock the hill giant out. Then they're going to triple-chain that hill giant up with adamantine manacles and chains, then they're going to bore a hole in a mountain and shove the hill giant into that hole so only his head is showing, then they're going to fill that hole with quick-drying cement. Then they're going to kick that hill giant into unconsciousness. Only then, do they give the commoner a +5 flaming, shock, icy, um . . . rock. So OBVIOUSLY, I am going to say that it is VERY FEASIBLE that a 1st level commoner can beat a hill giant with a rock. It doesn't even require a great stretch of the imagination. You could paralyze the hill giant with poisons, or have him held down by an ancient red dragon. Or you could, maybe, sharpen the edge of the rock and make it a vorpal weapon, instead of giving it all those enhancements. Really, there is almost . . . oh, I'd say, an INFINITE number of ways a 1st level commoner armed with a rock can totally kill a hill giant. -- If you are scoffing at this point, imagine that a character that is SMART enough to survive to 19th level - never mind a wizard - is going to, for some reason, not have any kind of contingency plans, no bodyguard, no nothing. Nothing at all. Now imagine a wizard, who IS smart. Now imagine a wizard that has access to all sorts of horrifyingly interesting spells and weapons, including quickened spells. Oh wait, that's not all, let's imagine a wizard that knows you're coming. That's a 19th level wizard. This guy can cast WISH spells. As far as your party is concerned, that's WISH, as in "d***, I WISH I had never f***ed with this wizard". Now, tell me, is your party of low-level characters going to beat up this 19th level wizard who knows they're coming, who can hire hirelings, make shield guardians, golems, call on powerful friends, gain the assistance of planar allies, has access to magical protection . . . All I can say is, you'd better have those storm giants and vorpal rocks ready. -- Yeah, you CAN beat up that wizard, but that pretty much requires that the DM is a bad DM. There is no way a buncha 5-6 level characters should be able to defeat a 19th level wizard WHO KNOWS THEY'RE COMING.
enygmatic_me 12-14-06, 03:01 AM	Direct conflict should be the last approach (or the last phase of a more elaborate plan). Poisons are your best bet that will keep you out of harms way. Find out where he tends to spend his leasure time. Either star hanging there staying in the shaows observing hiim for a few and then try to drop really potent poison in his drink - or - if you don't think he will recognize the party get jobs at his hang out. That will make it even easier to poison his drink/food. If you are neutral or evil as a party, hire a bunch of people with the 10% pay up front contract. Hire people you are fairly certain will lose in a conflict against him, but will weaken him enough that when you do ambush he has exhausted as much of his magic as possible. Then, again, poison. Anyone that can throw a dart should be throwing poison ones. Anyone with a bow should be firing poison arrows. It'll be costly, but it might be your only choice. Last suggestion. If this guy is some sort of big bad evil then you start letting every force of good you can get ten seconds with know where he is. You may not get the xp but you should get to stay alive. Honestly, unless your DM is setting this guy up to be the climactic confrontation at the end of the campaign, he either has something against you or be trying to kill you all off for some specific reason (which could be as simple as wanting you all to make new characters). With your party set-up you are either very experienced gamers wanted to try something odd and challenging (like those of use that played through Final Fanasy with 3 Thieves and a Red Mage)or you guys are new to the game (no offense intended), because the party set-up is a little mind boggling.
itwasntme 12-14-06, 03:16 AM	*IDEA!* Hmm The Wizard ... Become friends Convice him he needs to get laid ... then get the best looking female Person to sleep with him ... then in the middle of the night (Or sex for risker things) Kill him VIA dagger in the heart when hes sleeping ... OR Make sure the Female has AIDS ... Now wait for a while ... Wait ... Wait ... Keep makeing the female do him ... Hell get it Sooner or later and keep this up ... Now whats the problem? Well he could have people guarding him ... Thats why u bluffed/ all that jazz to the prositute to sleep with the wizard then kill him and then she died ... She wasnt apart of ur group OH NO if he gose "OMG That girl tryed to kill me!" You go "OMG You must have an assassin!" ... That or try some other way to get the guy laid ... lol Problem Solved if you have luck on your side
Roivas 12-14-06, 03:54 AM	Okay. Let's assume you can even get another shot at this guy first. Then assume you will be fighting him without globe of invunerablity already up. Also assume he is alone without guard or traps of any kind in the room he is in. Finally assume he will not know you are there until you are within striking distance. Now here is the only idea that I really could come up with: Use ray of enfeeblement, a tanglefoot bag, and have every person making these attacks use true strike the round before atttacking. If you get lucky and critical on your ray of enfeeblement he might get too weighted down by his incredibly powerful magic items and collapse unable to move. Then you throw a tanglefoot bag onto him for good measure and proceed to slice his head off. This also assumes he doesn't have a clone waiting him, a contingency spell already cast, loyal followers who would true ressurect him, and isn't a lich. So given all these highly improbable events occuring you would most likely be the luckiest person in existance and should move on to Vegas. Eve if you manage to kill this guy I'd rule he comes back for no reason other than that should never happen. But any GM who is awake would be able to think of a way for him to come back, and brutally murder you all in your dreamless sleeps.
sigea 12-14-06, 04:18 AM	Wait, hold up a second, all we know at this point is that the party of 6th level characters busted down a door and the mage was there. for all we know, this mage could have already been at a brothel minding his own buisness. (By the way, why would a 19th level mage need to worry about "company", isn't that the joy of planar binding?). who are the evil guys in this scenario, the mage, who from what I read, doesn't care less about you. Or you, the guys who busted in on him and now have this vandetta to destroy him. And lets look at this another way. telldel, if for some bizarre twist of fate your party ever got to 19th level (not that I see how taking on a level 19 mage at 6th level), how would you feel if a bunch of level 6 kobolds (pick a class, any class) stormed into your keep and killed you? What's that I hear you say, wouldn't happen, the DM would have to be fudging every roll under the sun. Think about that. Now also think about the fact that this mage is level 19. As far as I am aware, there are two ways to achieve being level 19 - xp (usually from adventuring and to a smaller extent roleplaying) and DM fudge because he is meant to be a future villan. Something tells me, that either way, the mage should be NPC'd like a mage who knew how to look after himself. One last thought, not all enemies are meant to be killable the first time you meet. this is called plot\storyline\realism. why not take your time, get some experience and come and knock on his door in a couple of years. Seriously, without being stupid or cowardly, the best way for a level 6 party to kill the mage, is walk away, know when something is out of your reach, and come back when you can.
journeyman777 12-14-06, 08:08 AM	First, to the naysayers: If you aren't a part of the solution, quit posting. I'll even say please. To those who gave possible tactics: Bravo! Encore, encore! To the OP: You need to get more info on this guy before trying anything. Seriously, at this point your best chance is to meet the guy outside of a conflict and make a diplomacy check (with aid another) to shift his attitude to helpful. That buys you time to find out more about him (and with a really good check may eliminate the need to face him EVER, which is devoutly to be desired). Further tactics will require answers to my earlier questions.
Killer_DM 12-14-06, 10:26 AM	This is a scenario close to my heart, so I really have to post something :D First, I would like to congratulate you on finding a truely difficult endevor and if you pull this off you are looking at some really nice rewards (a level 19 npc will have 170k gp worth of gear). I see people recomending the use of nets/tangle foot bags, these cause a DC15+spell level concentration check to cast a spell with a somatic component. To a level 19 caster that is automatic up to a level 8 spell, given that concentration will give the caster a +22 and thus a minimum roll of 23 (remember 1s do not auto-fail on skill checks). Nets are also exotic weapons so you may have penalties to use them. Here is what I recomend: Silence is your friend, because it is unlikely that the wizard will have memorized all his spells as "Silent Spells" so it will limit his arsenal. Once he is silenced then move in for a grapple, by grappling him you further limit his spell choice to only spells that do not have material components or those spells for which he has the material components in his hand when you gapple him. This leaves spells that use only somantic componets, and you cannot cast those while you are grappled/pinned :) To sum up, Cleric casts silence on a Bard, Bards go for gapples, and the party wizard can stand back and cast. Once the enemy wizard is silenced and grappled the bards can do hand to hand damage or use light weapons, the cleric can either assist in the melee/grapple or stand back and cast some damage as can your party wizard. With all of you beating on him his hit points will go away rather quickly. Also using some good ambush tactics you can have silence cast ahead of time and the bards can flank the wizard. To make your chance of surpise better I recomend disguise checks, assuming that he knows who you are and what you look like. You should also find out as much as you can about him, make lots of gather information checks. Where does he go and when that sort of information will help you make your ambush that much more effective. This will work given the following - the wizard is alone (or with people who will not assist) - you get surprise - wizard has few silent spells - wizard does not have enchew materials feat - you roll with reasonable luck and last but not least - your DM is nice to you, and does not want a TPK hope this helps cheers! EDIT: Also all of you can use "Summon Monster Spells" to add to your numbers, the more things swinging the better your chances. Each of you can summon 1d3 minions to help in the fight, the more rolls to hit you get the better your chances of hitting, swarming works.
Bladegeek 12-14-06, 10:30 AM	What about Waves of Exhaustion, no save and your SR cannot be near high enough to worry about. Now you are at -6 str and dex, move at half speed, gives the wizard time for other fun stuff. Anything that does 19d6 damage about 66 damage on average, save for 33 at 6th level that is most likely a TPK right there in one spell. Black Tentacles +27 grapple checks, even Reverse Gravity for 19 rounds is a very scary spell. You could stock up on "arrows of wizard slaying" and hope you can surprise him :D All good ideas but the party that the OP listed is not high enough to have thoes spells.
Damionte 12-14-06, 02:16 PM	get the suprise round and then let the group "harm" the wizard with 3 scrolls. One char should then finish the last HP off (cause harm only leaves the wizard with 1 HP). A spell that does not require a save and SR comes to my mind. Its only 1 HP left so it should not be a problem HARM doesn't work like that anymore. It does 10 points per lvl of the caster. Or was it 20/Lvl, either way it's one of those. Another thing, many people are spitting out solutions that require resources these characters don't (or shouldn't) have. Recommended loot in GP value for 4 6th level characters is just 52,000 GP. That's 13K x4. That's assuming they havn't spent any of that along the way. We can probably expect they have about half that much in liquid assests they can spend on things like scrolls of HARM, or commisioning magic items or such. Why I asked in my post a page back for more information. We can't give oyu any kind of honest help until we know what you know about what you have to work with. How Much Gold does the party actually have to spend? Do you have any contacts with power/influence that can help? How much time do you have till you expect to meet the wizard again? We can't honestly help you telldel with the information you've given us.
Damionte 12-14-06, 02:29 PM	Oh and another thing. Maybe people are not reading the first post but although silence is great against casters, it isn't a good idea for this party. Silence has a save if you cast it directly on someone. A save he'll most likely make since it's will and he's 19th. So the only way for them to get silence on him is to cast it on som einanimate objects they bring with them, and toss in his general direction when the conflict starts. They also need to get the silence away from themselves. DID YOU GUY READ WHAT HIS PARTY IS MADE UP OFF? bard 4 wizard 6 Bard 6 Cleric 3/ Wiz 3 They're all casters! To be honest this wizard doesn't need to cast spells to kill them all. Hell he could cast silence on them, then wade in with a non magical quartstaff and beat them all to death in hand to hand combat!
itwasntme 12-14-06, 02:53 PM	con damage plain and simple as a caster he will have a terrible fort save. at 0 con you die thats what i would do anyway i see this being very Reasonible Posin/Pert or just other things only needing a Fort save most wizard dount have the greatest Fort save in the world and most wizard i know have a Better Dex then Con (Ini) You can Win but the chance's of winning is Slim i think some of these people when looking at there arguements must fall in the line of "Anti fighter Wizard allways wins no matter what" Now if you had said A lvl 6 wizard lvl 6 druid lvl 6 cleric lvl 6 barb VS Lvl 19 fighter you have a differnt arguement from them (Or somewhat) A lvl 19 vs lvl 6 is going to be VERY Differcult but i can see it happning Hell punpun lvl 6 could take on lvl 20 monsters im guessing right? im just pointing out pun pun as an example you dount need to be like him (or anywhere like him) To take out a CR much higher then you
eridalafar 12-14-06, 03:10 PM	Some idea: 1- Get a lot more informations on him (information is power), do he is alergic to something (bee's venon?) 2- Do he have ennemies? If so who and can you work with them? 3- Do he is planing to do a very huge magical ritual that will let him totaly drained for some time or that will distract him? 4- Do it existe a prophecy about him, like he will be killed by a child of the prophecy or a special item or condition (like the one time by millenium comet). 5- Do saying his truname will affect him and if so what his truname? 6- Who are his friends? can you kidnap them to force him to come to you when and where you have chosen? 7- What do he love/need, find it and give it to him as peace offer. 8- Do the nearest mad "scientist" gnome have build something that can make a big boum and can you convice him that you are making him a favor in doing a live test for him..... (just hope that it realy make something more that a lot of sound....). To defeat him you will probably need more the help of the roleplay side of D&D that the roledice one. By smart and don't forget that beating and encouter don't only mean that you have killed the ennemy, just that you have survived an encouter with him. Eridalafar
itwasntme 12-14-06, 03:24 PM	Some idea: 1- Get a lot more informations on him (information is power), is he is alergic to something (bee's venon?) 2- Dose he have ennemies? If so who and can you work with them? 3- is he is planing to do a very huge magical ritual that will let him totaly drained for some time or that will distract him? 4- Dose a prophecy excist about him, like he will be killed by a child of the prophecy or a special item or condition (like the one time by millenium comet). 5- will saying his truname will affect him and if so what his truname? 6- Who are his friends? can you kidnap them to force him to come to you when and where you have chosen? 7- What dose he love/need, find it and give it to him as peace offer. 8- has (if there is) the nearest mad "scientist" gnome buildt something that can make a big boom and can you convice him that you are making him a favor in doing a live test for him..... (just hope that it realy makes something more that a lot of sound....). To defeat him you will probably need more then help on the roleplay side of D&D then the roledice one. By smarts and don't forget that beating and encouter don't only mean that you have killed the ennemy, just that you have survived an encouter with him. Eridalafar hmm my answers to these ... 1- Agreed (NEED INFO) 2- Agreed (NMES?) 3- Again under Info ... Agreed tho however unlikly 4- Err ... Unlikly but perhaps? kinda disagree on that tho 5- True name ... VERY Unlikly Thats Epic Quest Dude in my book so Disagree strongly there 6- his friends? NOT Likly the thing to do for many reasons ... Disagree Strongly 7- Peace offer? ... The guy will thank them and kill them considering there NMES of him ... or just kill them then take it Disagree but not strongly 8- THERE IS ONE? ... I kinda disagree there DOUNT Let him show it to you ... you might die from it! DISAGREE on this one .. On short dude you need more INFO on the wizard no matter what
telldel 12-14-06, 03:31 PM	First, to the naysayers: If you aren't a part of the solution, quit posting. I'll even say please. To those who gave possible tactics: Bravo! Encore, encore! To the OP: You need to get more info on this guy before trying anything. Seriously, at this point your best chance is to meet the guy outside of a conflict and make a diplomacy check (with aid another) to shift his attitude to helpful. That buys you time to find out more about him (and with a really good check may eliminate the need to face him EVER, which is devoutly to be desired). Further tactics will require answers to my earlier questions. You are my hero... Seriously. I don't have very much information on the guy because our game last week wrapped right after we got done with the encounter... I will find out more info (if possible) this week and I'll post it here. Thank you to everyone that has suggested serious and specific strategy! Everyone else can stop posting! If I was going to give up, beg, or walk away, I would have started a thread titled, "How do I beg for my life so the 19th level Wizard doesn't kill me?" TELLDEL
lancean 12-14-06, 03:51 PM	I think it's fairly safe to say that a caster of that level is going to have a Contingency spell available, say to Teleport him someplace if he becomes disabled, grappled, or helpless. Plus, if he has a chance to act, he can drop a Horrid Wilting on top of everyone (and just not select himself as a target). your party takes 19d6 non-typed damage, fortitude save for half. Fight over. As to stealing his stuff, the only thing he really cares about should be his spellbook (if he needs one, and if he does he should have more than one copy stashed someplace with a Dramiij Instant Summons on it) and perhaps his Amulet of Health +6 (a handy little thing that gives him 57 bonus HP...). Now, as to taking this fellow out without any melee characters... Spells 1 - Evard's Black Tentacles on a scroll or wand. Earthen Grasp or Stony Grasp might also work, and are cheaper, but those require a hit roll 2 - Feeblemind on a scroll (though it may not work due to the level of the spell versus your level, and even with a -4 the mage may very well make the Will save. 3 - Wrack on a scroll or wand. 4 - Burning Blood on a scroll or wand, does continuous damage and limits the target to move actions only on any round it fails Fortitude save. So some rounds the mage would be unable to do anything but move, and some rounds he'd be able to waste you. =) 5 - Icelance on a scroll or Wand, will stun for 1d4 rounds if Fort save is failed. The only real trouble with those spells above is that the saves coming off an item you're using to cast it will be pretty easy, so success is not likely on the first shot, and you may only get ONE shot. Oh, and Globe of Invulnerability will stop all those tricks except Feeblemind. Non-magic Items 1 - Mancatcher. if you nail the caster with this pole weapon and trap him, he MAY not be able to cast. Maybe. 2 - Poison. Getting a good debilitating poison that will knock him right out is probably more expensive than any of the "get a scroll or wand" options above, but it is an option. Forget ability damage, you want unconsciousness or sleep s a primary effect. Anyway, for all this stuff, safely figure the guy to have around 100 to 140 HP, and saves of +10 (fort and reflex) or +14 (will).
Evencar 12-14-06, 04:11 PM	hrm I would have to say diplomacy is your best option here with not only one but two bards in the party its quite a possiblity you hvae a very good bluffer and as stated in the epic level handbook you can do about anything with a good bluff check. This would be a lot easier if you bard was 7th level and had access to glibness or if you can locate a scroll of it. +30 on bluff is nothing to laugh at and with serene visage improvisation and skill ranks and a good ability modifer to chrisma you could probably end up with something in the range of plus 50-60 on a couple of bluff checks. Now this also means depends upon the wizard how confident he is in his abilities and if he has any ranks in sense motive. ((truly doubtful.)) I would personally say a 19th level wizard or sorcerer will be so confident in his ablility to defeat this group that he really wouldn't see it coming. So at the very least he would think of you of his best friends and mayeb help you out. Of course if one of your bards is female she can use bluff to seduce him sleep with him and coup de grace him after the act. Grappling for the most part is out of the picture because its doubtful any of you could beat him. Of course that depends upon your bards spells know. If you were going to grapple the wizard i'd suggest throwing in ray of enfeeblment to lower his strength or ray of exhaustion to fatigue him. Avoid all enchantment and illusion spells that Affect him anything without a will save is probably in your best intrest. You would probably be best of to avoid combat all together though its really a near impossible encounter.
itwasntme 12-14-06, 04:20 PM	Wait, hold up a second, all we know at this point is that the party of 6th level characters busted down a door and the mage was there. for all we know, this mage could have already been at a brothel minding his own buisness. (By the way, why would a 19th level mage need to worry about "company", isn't that the joy of planar binding?). who are the evil guys in this scenario, the mage, who from what I read, doesn't care less about you. Or you, the guys who busted in on him and now have this vandetta to destroy him. And lets look at this another way. telldel, if for some bizarre twist of fate your party ever got to 19th level (not that I see how taking on a level 19 mage at 6th level), how would you feel if a bunch of level 6 kobolds (pick a class, any class) stormed into your keep and killed you? What's that I hear you say, wouldn't happen, the DM would have to be fudging every roll under the sun. Think about that. Now also think about the fact that this mage is level 19. As far as I am aware, there are two ways to achieve being level 19 - xp (usually from adventuring and to a smaller extent roleplaying) and DM fudge because he is meant to be a future villan. Something tells me, that either way, the mage should be NPC'd like a mage who knew how to look after himself. One last thought, not all enemies are meant to be killable the first time you meet. this is called plot\storyline\realism. why not take your time, get some experience and come and knock on his door in a couple of years. Seriously, without being stupid or cowardly, the best way for a level 6 party to kill the mage, is walk away, know when something is out of your reach, and come back when you can. not True you didnt state how the character acted and who where the kobolts ... Pun pun the level 6 kobolt comes to keel you ... wtf where you saying? In my point a DM isnt going to do it becouse its HUMILTYING to the person Hell at level 1 if your party died due to CATS ... would you laf? Possibly ... would you go That was an unfair Battle! ... possibly ... would you go and tell eveyone about it? ... only in a jokeing mood yes ... hell i can see it now the worst PC's Deaths ... be good for a laf in my book OMFG i do not know how to Spell Laf ... help me ...
Ian Demagi 12-14-06, 04:27 PM	I still think the Hail of Stone wands will work. There is no save- to get around his great saves, No resistance in case he has that up, there is no to hit roll. You are dumping rocks on him. No spell turning- its an area of effect. I guess technicially minor globe or glode should block it. No way to get around his continquency stuff, but at least you might live through the ordeal, Ian.
itwasntme 12-14-06, 04:54 PM	I still think the Hail of Stone wands will work. There is no save- to get around his great saves, No resistance in case he has that up, there is no to hit roll. You are dumping rocks on him. No spell turning- its an area of effect. I guess technicially minor globe or glode should block it. No way to get around his continquency stuff, but at least you might live through the ordeal, Ian. agreed that could work ... make eveyone do that and surprize him possibly (if you can) and it could possibly work ... probly the best answer to this
sigea 12-14-06, 06:59 PM	not True you didnt state how the character acted and who where the kobolts ... Pun pun the level 6 kobolt comes to keel you ... wtf where you saying? In my point a DM isnt going to do it becouse its HUMILTYING to the person Hell at level 1 if your party died due to CATS ... would you laf? Possibly ... would you go That was an unfair Battle! ... possibly ... would you go and tell eveyone about it? ... only in a jokeing mood yes ... hell i can see it now the worst PC's Deaths ... be good for a laf in my book OMFG i do not know how to Spell Laf ... help me ... My point was to prove that you dont expect this to be done to a PC, why would you expect it to apply to an NPC? and telldell, the BEST piece of advice on how to kill the mage, is WALK AWAY. Dont shoot people down as naysayers for giving you the only bit of advice that has a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding. That is just plain rude. If you want to munchkins way of killing something that has no plausible hope of succeeding, and feeling empty and unfullfilled once complete, by all means, go ahead and listen to all the "cast silence" posts, but if you want to kill him and live to tell the tale, and have a great rememerouble encounter, WALK AWAY
Manic Man 12-14-06, 09:11 PM	Hell punpun lvl 6 could take on lvl 20 monsters im guessing right? .... Pun pun was never meant to be played. He can not only take on CR 20 encounters, he can take on DvR 20 encounters.... There is one more way that a 19th level caster can die to a level 6 party. i) He is under a curse or has a race giving strength of 3 ii) He has nothing but detection spells in his spell book iii) He never bothers memorising anything higher than level 3 iv) He has no weapon, never uses any improvised weapon and has no Improved Unarmed Strike. Ask your DM to make him like that and you should win.
Angelflesh 12-14-06, 09:42 PM	The best advice i think anyone can give is to level. I highly doubt your DM expects you to defeat this guy. If you do happen to defeat him, like others have said, get a new DM because he is mildly retarded. And by the way, were not really nay-sayers. We are just being truthful. When i start a thread asking how to pass a jump check with a DC 36 at level 3, i really do not expect anyone to give me helpful advice. In fact, i hope they relieve me of my idiocy so i can see the error of my ways.
Merestil Haye 12-14-06, 09:53 PM	I still think the Hail of Stone wands will work. There is no save- to get around his great saves, No resistance in case he has that up, there is no to hit roll. You are dumping rocks on him. No spell turning- its an area of effect. I guess technicially minor globe or glode should block it. No way to get around his continquency stuff, but at least you might live through the ordeal, Ian.One other problem with Hail of Stone, which keeps catching me too. Casting time 1 full round. You are not going to get the spell off in a surprise round.
Iver Gearsham 12-14-06, 10:06 PM	First work on casting Explosive Runes as many times as possible before hand 100 or more on sheets of paper, Use the 0 lvl spell Stick to make a solid stack that will burst on impact into individual sheets when one of you throws it at your foe's feet another person casts AREA EFFECT DISPELL MAGIC at Minimum Caster level this will effect all the Explosive Rune sheets simultaneously and Hopefully Fail to Dispell them causing at lest 20 of them to Detonate and by pass SR 18 of a Robe of Arch Magi this will do 120d6 of damage for an average of 360. To kill the Teleport out Contingency have Anticipate Teleport 3rd lvl spell(Greater if you can) on someone that stops him for one round (or more). But if you kill him he will just come back Very pissy If your ok with that go ahead. Dust of Sneezing and Choking DMG page 275 Auto Disable stun him for 5d4 rounds. Insanity Mist DMG page 297 DC can be upped to 17 1d4 Wis second 2d6 Wis combo with contact poison Con damage to lower saves you could get him into a comma that you could maintain till he fails one of the spells mentioned below then go hog wild. Or go for Minor Creation Black Lotus contact poison cast Virulence on it to up the DC by 2 then have on a scroll a spell like Smoky Confinement if you drop his Con ready this it will keep him alive in stasis in a bottle if your very lucky and the Con drop is enough to screw his save. That will give you time to grow in power loot the Mages holdings and disable his plans, kill the clones. Also Flesh to Stone can work better as it is a higher lvl spell but you will need to Shrink Item him down for easy transport
Ian Demagi 12-14-06, 11:23 PM	I don't think its a full round if its coming out of a wand should just be a standard action. Please correct me if I am wrong, Ian.
Merestil Haye 12-14-06, 11:33 PM	I don't think its a full round if its coming out of a wand should just be a standard action. Please correct me if I am wrong, Ian.Wands take a standard action or the casting time of the spell contained to activate, whichever is longer.Activation Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.)(Bolding mine.) To kill the Teleport out Contingency have Anticipate Teleport 3rd lvl spell(Greater if you can) on someone that stops him for one round (or more).That won't work. Anticipate Teleport stops people teleporting into the area. It does not stop people teleporting out of the area (unless they're going to another location within the area).
Damionte 12-14-06, 11:37 PM	First work on casting Explosive Runes as many times as possible before hand 100 or more on sheets of paper, Use the 0 lvl spell Stick to make a solid stack that will burst on impact into individual sheets when one of you throws it at your foe's feet another person casts AREA EFFECT DISPELL MAGIC at Minimum Caster level this will effect all the Explosive Rune sheets simultaneously and Hopefully Fail to Dispell them causing at lest 20 of them to Detonate and by pass SR 18 of a Robe of Arch Magi this will do 120d6 of damage for an average of 360. Actually that's not a bad idea. As long as he doesn't consider the waiting explosive runes to be magic items, and I doubt he will you could get that to work. You probably don't need 20 of them, 10 will probably do it. So you're only looiking at 3500 gold in explosive rune scrolls to get this done. (None of thier casters can cast explosive runes.) Probably don't need the sticky spell, can probably just walk up and hand it to him, or have it dilivered to him. Well we've found an attack form these guys can actually do and afford at thier level. Good work with that one. Now how do they deliver it. A small stack of parchment each with the spell and all rolled into the same scroll case it simple enough. How now to get it into the hands of the wizard while one of thier bards is within range to Dispell Magic? This is where we need mor einfo about the Wizard. I mean his defenses will be up in the near future. And if he sees magic on the scroll case before it get's to him.....
Votan 12-15-06, 12:46 AM	Just a thought, perhaps the reason the DM let you know the level of the arcane caster was to convince you that the battle was hopeless? I have dropped such hints before!
concerro 12-15-06, 01:22 AM	You are my hero... Seriously. I don't have very much information on the guy because our game last week wrapped right after we got done with the encounter... I will find out more info (if possible) this week and I'll post it here. Thank you to everyone that has suggested serious and specific strategy! Everyone else can stop posting! If I was going to give up, beg, or walk away, I would have started a thread titled, "How do I beg for my life so the 19th level Wizard doesn't kill me?" TELLDEL I dont think you are supposed to fight him as level 6. Your Dm will probably have you on a "wild goose chase" until you get to a high enough level. Maybe I just ruined your adventure, but now you know you will live, and realistically there is no way you were going to win that fight, if you you even got to him. His henchman was probably at least a CR15, what exactly I dont know, but at CR15 it shouldn't matter.
Jancarius 12-15-06, 04:24 AM	I don't know about you, but I grant any spellcaster who is inside the area of silence a save. Doing otherwise makes it grossly overpowered for it's level, as it functions as an 'anti-caster field'. Grappling and nets all should fail. The wizard should have a continual freedom of movement effect at all times. Most of those spells you have can also possibly be affected by SR, which it's quite possible for the wizard to have. Further, presuming he didn't hit celerity and PWK/Horrid Wilting/Wail of the Banshee/DBFireball, why are you guys so interested in killing him? As has been constantly pointed out, you have about as much chance as the following party 4 Human Commoner 1 There's essentially no difference to him between your party and the one above. You would be far better off becoming his minons.
Yokomohoyo 12-15-06, 04:53 AM	One question. How do you know his level?? I mean dose he have "I'M LEVEL 19" written on over his head like some sort of diablo 2 character? Anyways... Rant over. You want to kill him? Easy hire some one to do it for you. No for real call shot him in the right eye with a cross-bow bolt... I'm preaty sure he'll die if you get the shot off.
Munktar 12-15-06, 05:10 AM	Dress up as a beautifull girl (or get one) get him to loose his robes, and other equipment by erotic seduction. When he is preoccupied with proving wizard have a manlyhood, grap him and spank him... Easy
Iver Gearsham 12-15-06, 08:24 PM	Damionte;10920875]Actually that's not a bad idea. As long as he doesn't consider the waiting explosive runes to be magic items, and I doubt he will you could get that to work. Explosive Runes cast on a sheet of paper as a spell are not magic items they are just a permanent till discharged spell effect. You probably don't need 20 of them, 10 will probably do it. So you're only looking at 3500 gold in explosive rune scrolls to get this done. True that only ten Runes need to get through the 19th lvl mages SR but it is a roll off and still need to get lucky and whats the problem with a lot of overkill in this situation? Buy one scroll copy it to your book then cast as many as you need. (None of their casters can cast explosive runes.)they have a 6th lvl mage in the OP's group if he doesn't have it he could get it quickly. Probably don't need the sticky spell, can probably just walk up and hand it to him, or have it delivered to him. Stick lets you Launch Item the pack of doom if you need more range than throwing gets you. Maybe you could but then you have to make a lot of Reflex saves to live though it and at 6tth lvl I doubt it. Well we've found an attack form these guys can actually do and afford at their level. Good work with that one. Thank you takes a bow ;) . Now how do they deliver it. A small stack of parchment each with the spell and all rolled into the same scroll case it simple enough.If you take a little more time preparing cast Nystule's Magic Aura to suppress the aura of the Runes from detect magic and the like. How now to get it into the hands of the wizard while one of their bards is within range to Dispell Magic? This is where we need more info about the Wizard. I mean his defenses will be up in the near future. And if he sees magic on the scroll case before it gets to him....
Damionte 12-15-06, 09:20 PM	Even with that plan going I thikn they'll walk up and find the Mage has a permanent True Seeing spell or something similar. It's always one of the first thngs I equip myself with at mid levels. Too bad he can't get his GM to post here. It's been an aumising mental excercise but the whole thing will probably be for naught. No sane GM purposfully pits a 6th level group against a 19th caster. If they did then we're talking about a group of little kid players, and this things just been a bigger waste of time thta it already has been.
Blaze_the_Dragon 12-15-06, 11:08 PM	I dont think you are supposed to fight him as level 6. Your Dm will probably have you on a "wild goose chase" until you get to a high enough level. Maybe I just ruined your adventure, but now you know you will live, and realistically there is no way you were going to win that fight, if you you even got to him. His henchman was probably at least a CR15, what exactly I dont know, but at CR15 it shouldn't matter. Henchmen? Wizards don't have Henchmen...They have familars...And a 19th level wizards Famileir would still have a good chance of TPKing the party.
Flay Crimsonwind 12-16-06, 02:34 AM	Get the bards to take ranks in UMD and get a scroll of Antimagic Field. Cleric can start laying the hurt down on him, hopefully, while the bards help from range. With 2 Bards casting the field, you can at least ward him off, which is good. Otherwise? Try dying in style. No way you take a near epic wizard out w/ some low-level heroes. Most likely the DM put that in to propose a future fight, and the wiz/sorc will send his weaker minions after you, thinking they'll be enough to kill you. Which, with 2 bards, they might just do. Good Luck.
Ian Demagi 12-16-06, 09:42 AM	No way that cleric takes down a 19 level wizard even staff to staff. What 6 level adventurer is going to have acess to anti magic field, or the ducketts to have it cast for them? Ian
journeyman777 12-16-06, 10:07 AM	While we wait for more info on the Wizard, how about giving us some details on your party? How much gold do you have available to spend on this? What spells do your bards know? What are the cleric's domains? What time frame do you have to work with? What is the party's highest mod for: UMD? Spellcraft? Knowledge (Arcana)? Gather Information? BTW, Thank you. This is the most intriguing challenge I've seen in a while. After all, accomplishing the "impossible" is what heroes do, right?
telldel 12-16-06, 03:43 PM	While we wait for more info on the Wizard, how about giving us some details on your party? How much gold do you have available to spend on this? What spells do your bards know? What are the cleric's domains? What time frame do you have to work with? What is the party's highest mod for: UMD? Spellcraft? Knowledge (Arcana)? Gather Information? BTW, Thank you. This is the most intriguing challenge I've seen in a while. After all, accomplishing the "impossible" is what heroes do, right? THANK YOU for viewing this as an interesting exercise. I have no intention of suiciding my character. The point of this exercise is to PREPARE my party for our next encounter with this guy (I KNOW we're going to meet up again, probably in the near future). Remember: PROPER PREPARATION PREVENTS POOR PERFORMANCE! I'll get the info. off my my party next time we get together (might be tonight)... By the way, is there any reason why an Arrow of Slaying (lesser or greater) wouldn't work? Even at level 19, a Wizard doesn't have a great Fortitude Save (+6 I think) and he'd have to make a fortitude check of 20 or 23... Four arrows in one round, two are bound to hit, and he'd have to make a save that is not easy or DIE. TELLDEL
journeyman777 12-16-06, 05:24 PM	1. A character of his lv almost certainly has some form of death ward. (possibly limited uses, but it still cuts into your odds badly) 2. His Fort save is probably more like 12-15 thanks to con buffs and a cloak of resistance. (you can use certain spells to apply penalties to his save, but that gives you one less person actually shooting him) 3. He is likely to have a contingency set to trigger when he is targeted by a death effect. (polymorphing into a form immune to death effects was always a personal favorite of mine) 4. Even if he did roll a 1 and die, he almost certainly has a clone prepared. (a thinuan item can fix this last problem, but you need to get it in contact with him first) Your best bet for killing and keeping him killed is to render him helpless and deliver the coup-de-grace with a thinuan weapon. Rendering him helpless is best accomplished by ability damage or non-lethal damage. Spells like "Greater Shivering Touch" can accomplish this with relative ease.
Khael 12-16-06, 07:04 PM	THANK YOU for viewing this as an interesting exercise. I have no intention of suiciding my character. The point of this exercise is to PREPARE my party for our next encounter with this guy (I KNOW we're going to meet up again, probably in the near future). Remember: PROPER PREPARATION PREVENTS POOR PERFORMANCE! I'll get the info. off my my party next time we get together (might be tonight)... By the way, is there any reason why an Arrow of Slaying (lesser or greater) wouldn't work? Even at level 19, a Wizard doesn't have a great Fortitude Save (+6 I think) and he'd have to make a fortitude check of 20 or 23... Four arrows in one round, two are bound to hit, and he'd have to make a save that is not easy or DIE. TELLDEL It's: Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents P***-Poor Proformance... Well the version I read... And like I said on the other board: +1 mithral chain shirt of twilight soulfire. No ASF, no death effects... And he has armour for 36K assuming no extra enhancement. And your next encounter... will more likely not involve him, but more his flunkies (He's an high-level NPC, whattayamean he's got no flunkies, he has 15-20 rounds of summon monster N, teleport and scrying?!?) But the best idea so far involves you running, levelling up or getting way into debt. Because that anti-magic field is still the best idea. That or moving home, if he can't identify where you are he can't attack. Runner-up is hired killer, though at the ranges involved I won't bet on it working. Tricky one... Or... there is the celestial shocker lizards of death tactic... hire as many low-level mages as possible, equip all of them with wands of summon monster, then as soon as he's(the target) on the gronud or 10ft or so off, everyone summon a celestial shocker lizard. Celestial shocker lizards use 'lethal shock'... assume 20 lizards, thats 40d8 electricity, with a DC 30 for half. Celebrate over roasted mage...And watch your DM burst into tears...
stefan_mi 12-16-06, 07:25 PM	How do you know he is "19th level?" Did your Dm say, "You kick in the door and see a 19th level wizard standing there?" Best way to kill a 19th level NPC? Use a group of 19th level PCs.
striderII 12-17-06, 12:39 AM	How do you know he is "19th level?" Did your Dm say, "You kick in the door and see a 19th level wizard standing there?" Best way to kill a 19th level NPC? Use a group of 19th level PCs. Actually, no I didn't, but when the NPC in question teleported away, they had a good idea he had a bit of a difference in power level over them. It was after game that I think I mentioned it in passing, because they likely will never meet him again, at all - although someone mentioned the "flunkies" thing, and that's certain - so I didn't really care. It's a Ptolus campaign, and the adventure was written by Monte Cook. One thing to remember about Ptolus is that you can run into NPC's of whatever level at pretty much any point - but it isn't a "you die or I die" kind of situation. It's just not that cut-and-dry all the time. I'll post more later, but I just wanted to mention that. Oh, and no, they obviously didn't get any XP for the guy teleporting away in the first round of combat (as it's in his character to do so, even if a 1st level commoner would have stumbled into his lair somehow). Other side note about Ptolus - the way it's all set up, it is entirely possible for spellcasters to walk in, "go nova", blowing spells they'd normally try to save in a "typical" campaign, go home, rest, and come back to the adventuring site the next day fully rested. It's not at all uncommon to throw challenges at the party 2 or 3 CR's higher than their level, and have them win. Although take that away, and still throw slightly higher CR stuff at them (1 to 2 levels) and things are much more difficult. strider
journeyman777 12-17-06, 12:49 AM	Oh well, it was still a fun mental exercise. Thanks again.
Friendlyfish 12-17-06, 05:03 AM	The only way to win this one is to cut the Cheese. I point you towards either your Wizard or your Cleric/wizard. This individual will need to have two things: 1.) The Summon Swarm spell. 2.) The Dark Speech feat. You first summon 5,000 bats with the summon swarm spell. Simultaneously, you use the dark speech feat to make it a hivemind. I think the resulting hivemind is the equivalent of a 96th level sorcerer or some crap see the Book of Vile Darkness for details. You also get the advantage of a suggestion on the new Ultraswarm. Tell it that the wizard will burn its bat-cells, and that the wiz must pay! Continue to concentrate on maintaining the swarm while they duel. Hopefully, the Ultraswarm will stomp the 19th level wizard. Enjoy your ill-gotten victory over what was probably supposed to be an important NPC. Note: Be prepared for your DM to throw books, dice, and the ol' excremento at you.
Khael 12-17-06, 07:58 AM	The only way to win this one is to cut the Cheese. I point you towards either your Wizard or your Cleric/wizard. This individual will need to have two things: 1.) The Summon Swarm spell. 2.) The Dark Speech feat. You first summon 5,000 bats with the summon swarm spell. Simultaneously, you use the dark speech feat to make it a hivemind. I think the resulting hivemind is the equivalent of a 96th level sorcerer or some crap see the Book of Vile Darkness for details. You also get the advantage of a suggestion on the new Ultraswarm. Tell it that the wizard will burn its bat-cells, and that the wiz must pay! Continue to concentrate on maintaining the swarm while they duel. Hopefully, the Ultraswarm will stomp the 19th level wizard. Enjoy your ill-gotten victory over what was probably supposed to be an important NPC. Note: Be prepared for your DM to throw books, dice, and the ol' excremento at you. You really have to be a verminlord PrC for this. Otherwise... The swarm will one: 1) collapse as you fail to maintain concentration, 2)Even if it doesn't, it will kill you first or maybe just decide to set itself up as city ruler for the ultimate protection. The reasonm is this: Verminlord, you are part of the hivemind, and can control it, becaause it is a part of your mind. Dark speech...you are an incompetant trying to suggest a course of action to a hypergenius...It will have other ideas...
telldel 12-17-06, 08:13 AM	I thought I would post my update here as well, for those of you checking the tail of this thread... suggestions still welcome. There have been some good ones so far! UPDATED!!!! Some of you asked for more specific information, here it is. Okay, here's the deal. My party consists of four people Level 2 Bard / Level 2 Rogue Level 6 Wizard (I am just 200 XP away from level 7) Level 5 Bard / Level 2 Figher Level 3 Cleric / Level 3 Wizard / Level 1 Mystic Theurge (multi-class) (Yes, we leveled up recently) Party information: We have about 25,000 gp in CASH (currently - this can and will increase). The Bard / Rogue has UMD at 7 or 8 ranks. The Bard / Fighter has one rank. The Cleric's Domains are Healing and Technology (it's a Ptolus thing). We have the "basic" magical gear (+1 weapons and armor, ROP, etc.) but we DO have poisonous litch dust. We have several party members with high knowledge checks such as local, religion, arcana, as well as gather information, diplomacy, sense motive, and bluff. Each category is roughly +8 to 12 The wizard's primary focus is making magical items. He has scribe scroll, craft magical arms and armor, craft construct, and craft wonderous item. Now stop laughing because we have no tanks. Here's the situation - The other day, we kicked down a door to find a level 19 "wizard" or sorcerer (one or the other - not really sure). The "wizard" escaped by a teleport spell, and we were lucky he was unprepared for our interruption. We knew he was high level because 1) the spell he used and 2) the fact the the DM said there was no classification on the CR table for this character. Information we know of the "wizard": 1) He may or may not be multi-class (sorcerer? wizard? something else?) 2) He's a coward - his first impulse is to cast teleport and run. 3) He's a big wig in a chaos cult. 4) He has spent a LOT of skill points in various chaositech / surgery skills. He is called THE SURGEON IN THE SHADOWS and he basically kidnaps young people and adds body parts to them and morphs them, Frankenstein style. 5) He has an entire cult of followers at his command. A lot of these followers have been mutated willingly. 6) He, himself, has been mutated or had chaositech added to his body - he had all sorts of blades and floating orbs hanging around him. Now here's my question - How could my party prepare for another encounter with this guy so we can take him down next time? Stop laughing again. For those of you who are familiar with Ptolus, he had a TON of chaositech all over him as well. What's the best way for "low" level characters to take down a 19th level wizard or 19th level sorcerer? ANY helpful suggestions would be appreciated. NOTE - I am looking for SUGGESTIONS. Hiding, running, begging, or fleeing are not SUGGESTIONS on how to BEAT him. I realize that the odds are long, but I want to be prepared for when/if we meet this guy again. WHO YA GONNA TELL? TELLDEL
itwasntme 12-17-06, 09:50 AM	the whole Pun pun thing i stated was just something that COULD happined (Chances are very very very very small but its not 0 in my games) im just a strong beleveer that nothing is imposible hell even if you said "You cant walk on the sun it has no surface" I wouldnt doubt that someone could walk on the sun ... right now ... even if you had to use a time machine to do it ... granted i would have to ask why along with 50 other things and the chances of it would be very very very very small but hell w/e I beleve your best bet is the Explosive ruins thing And before anyone states them having to much gold i dount beleve so ... in my games if u have a spell caster hes not realy going to spend it ... even tho people beleve you are ... hes not ... he'll buy food water and probly thats it ... in my games at least so they become rich i didnt mean to sound rude or anything eles like that all i meant was there is a small chanch however small hell Rxplosive ruins anyways in my option Hail of stones can work ... Surprize round ... Hi wizard where in town ... there he is on the buildings above him i will now cast Hail of stones! ready FIRE the stones are going to hit and be casted before i think he new what was going on ... probly not but hell it could work im now voteing on the Explosive ruins The Cleric i consider can be a tank ...
Khael 12-17-06, 11:32 AM	I still vote for scrolls of summon monster, used by a bunch of hired mages, all to each summon at least one celestial shocker lizard... All you need do there is tail him for a while, wait til he's not flying, then do it. Surprise Round: all summon lizard, Lizards round... kill him. Unless he's an epic mage, or seriously full of electricity hate magic. I mean with 25,000 gold to start, scrolls about 1000 each, and say twenty gold fee you should be able to summon some twenty lizards... If it works its not as if you won't replace all that gold... But that cleric is no tank anymore thanks to his now reduced Hp/BAB. On his plus he will make a good follow-up to the wizard.
telldel 12-17-06, 01:01 PM	I still vote for scrolls of summon monster, used by a bunch of hired mages, all to each summon at least one celestial shocker lizard... All you need do there is tail him for a while, wait til he's not flying, then do it. Surprise Round: all summon lizard, Lizards round... kill him. Unless he's an epic mage, or seriously full of electricity hate magic. I mean with 25,000 gold to start, scrolls about 1000 each, and say twenty gold fee you should be able to summon some twenty lizards... If it works its not as if you won't replace all that gold... But that cleric is no tank anymore thanks to his now reduced Hp/BAB. On his plus he will make a good follow-up to the wizard. Thanks for the suggestion, but not very practical. I don't think we're going to be able to plan our next encounter with this guy. But we need to be prepared incase we open a door and there he is. Besides, doesn't a summons spell (even from a scroll) take a full round? That's WAY to slow to catch this guy before he teleports or kills us all. TELLDEL
Khael 12-17-06, 02:15 PM	True...but you were never really going to do anything to him based on surprise. Chances are he has the feats and spells to go before you, and wouldn't be suprised (if he has foresight for example...he will see all those runes before they go boom.). My way was simply to deliver a OTK that he would be hard pushed to counter with anything in the time allowed (1 turn). And if he teleports on seeing you...You're not really dealing with a high level wizard. It's a low-middling one with a helm of teleport, or boots of teleport or similar. No-one said you had to be a excellent wizard to be high ranked, it just helps.
Manyfist 12-17-06, 02:32 PM	You're party will still die. If he kidnaps and turns things into Frankenstien Monsters then he's going to have ALOT of them. Not to mention wards...etc. You're only hope would be to catch him naked, dancing in the rain, asleep, and in a coma all at the same time. Other than that, you're party would be decimated by the wards, the monsters...etc. Not to mention he probly has an Antimagic field in all the rooms except his study/living area. Even if you guys get up there, he could cast dispell magic/shatter and all your arrows and armor would be gone. This guy is 19th level, his only theat would be from epic players. ;)
Nobunaga Oda 12-17-06, 03:58 PM	WOW. I'm really surprised. No one is even giving this a go. So, basically, what I'm hearing from you all is that this is "impossible and not even worth trying" and that I should "give up and roll a new character." This is a CHALLENGE! You're telling me that now one has any good, solid, specific ideas out there? They may be desperate, and yes, the mage could kill us all easily but let's try to make the odds the best they can be! How about this idea - Wait until he's gone, then sneak into his house and steal his spellbook (and any other scrolls or powerful magical items). Wait 24 hours so that the spells he has memorized disappear, then return and kill him! Chances are he doesn't have a complete duplicate spellbook (what, with the cost of scribing a 9th level spell). He'd have very few (if any) spells memorized and would be vulnerable. The above scenario is just one possibility. IT IS POSSIBLE! I realize the odds are slim, luck would have to be with the party, etc... But I believe it can be done! Are there any magical items that would be useful in upping the odds in the combat? Doesn't ANYBODY read Knights of the Dinner Table? Where's my "Brian" - that person that can tweak the rules to his advantage in ANY situation? WHO YA GONNA TELL? TELLDEL No itīs not :p. Itīs impossible. Run for live for another day. This is a viable strategy. Use it.
Iver Gearsham 12-17-06, 06:10 PM	From SRD Dust of Sneezing and Choking: This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20- foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds. Check out the bold section for 2,500 gp your target is stuned no save 5d4 rounds minimum 5 rounds fo gettin your butt kicked and doing nothing is hard to live through. Otiluke's Suppression Field 4th lvl from Complet Mage has a chance of preventing his Teleport away trick. Or a scroll of 8th lvl Dimentional Lock 20 ft. radius no teleport zone and if Stuned from the Dust he can't walk out of it. So if you suprise him or someone like him again hit him with the Dust then DL and then drop Wis or Char to zero by poison/spell and he will go into a comma avoiding the Attack of the Clones problem. Also Slight of Hand or Disarm can remove some of his magic gear if he is stuned and you get close.
Manyfist 12-17-06, 06:19 PM	From SRD Dust of Sneezing and Choking: This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20- foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds. Check out the bold section for 2,500 gp your target is stuned no save 5d4 rounds minimum 5 rounds fo gettin your butt kicked and doing nothing is hard to live through. Otiluke's Suppression Field 4th lvl from Complet Mage has a chance of preventing his Teleport away trick. Or a scroll of 8th lvl Dimentional Lock 20 ft. radius no teleport zone and if Stuned from the Dust he can't walk out of it. So if you suprise him or someone like him again hit him with the Dust then DL and then drop Wis or Char to zero by poison/spell and he will go into a comma avoiding the Attack of the Clones problem. Also Slight of Hand or Disarm can remove some of his magic gear if he is stuned and you get close. Whats to stop the Wizard from using the same thing? Remeber the Wizard has all the resources and many more of the party combined. At lvl 19 he's probly already knows about the dust and either has ways to remove it or has it at hand for anyone he thinks is a threat. Since most his creations could be considered Constructs or Undead whats to stop him from having that from covering every inch of his tower, since his Undead/Constructs are immune? You're assuming that the Wizard would be sitting down, with no spells memorized, nor armor, and blindfolded. Wizard (Most dangerous thing prepared) (Most Pathetic thing un prepared). Also its a 20' spread so the players can be caught in it as well. Better yet: Perm. gust of wind. so that anything that's directed at him thats non magical, would be blown away. Including the dust. Wizards are parnoid, especially an High Level one. Assassins with Dust? Gust of Wind, and kill the Assassin. The Wizard WILL know the players are coming (Hello alarm spells).
journeyman777 12-17-06, 08:28 PM	1) He may or may not be multi-class (sorcerer? wizard? something else?)A DC 30 Knowledge (Arcana) check can get you information on specific members of any arcane PrC. Find the biggest library in town and hit the books for a research bonus. Assuming at least one of you gets a good roll, that should tell you what class and PrCs he has. And yeah, buy some dust of sneezing and choking. That has to be the one of the best suggestions yet (there is a way to defend against it, but he might not have expected it). The Otiluke's Suppression Field is pretty much useless for now (unless you can massively boost your caster lv). 11+7=DC 18 the wizard can presumably beat that on a roll of 1. The shocker lizards of DOOM get an honorable mention, but this guy is undoubtably immune to electricity (and it doesn't take divination magic to find out your plan in advance if you're hiring every spellcaster you can get your hands on). Keep them in mind for dealing with armies of minions though. Whats to stop the Wizard from using the same thing?The fact that he has other things? Better things? The fact that this costs money and casting horrid wilting or the all-destroying spell of your choice doesn't?
Iver Gearsham 12-17-06, 08:32 PM	Manyfist;10937265]1 Whats to stop the Wizard from using the same thing? Remeber the Wizard has all the resources and many more of the party combined. 2 At lvl 19 he's probly already knows about the dust and either has ways to remove it or has it at hand for anyone he thinks is a threat. 3 Since most his creations could be considered Constructs or Undead whats to stop him from having that from covering every inch of his tower, since his Undead/Constructs are immune? 1 Nothing but the OP's original scenario that they have him by surprise. 2 Super geniuses are good at juggling lots of things and being prepared for many things but realy you expect me too believe he's got every contingency nailed possible down cold? Even Gods don't have that good. 3 The fact that once used it only lasts a short time. 1 You're assuming that the Wizard would be sitting down, with no spells memorized, nor armor, and blindfolded. 2 Wizard (Most dangerous thing prepared) (Most Pathetic thing un prepared). 3 Also its a 20' spread so the players can be caught in it as well. 1 No just operating under the OP's premis. 2 I agree a prepared Wizard is way more dangerous than CR would indicate if played to the hilt. Unprepared that depends on what you mean first without spells or second just prepared for general defens and action? First part your right quit easy to get killed by someone many levels below them if the Wizard has no spells, Second part bull pucky Not going to be easy at all. 3 Haven't you ever used a spread effect before? like a Fireball just catch the wizard at the edge so you don't nail your party. That's Magefu 101. 1 Better yet: Perm. gust of wind. so that anything that's directed at him that's non magical, would be blown away. Including the dust. 2 Wizards are paranoid, especially an High Level one. 3Assassins with Dust? Gust of Wind, and kill the Assassin. 4The Wizard WILL know the players are coming (Hello alarm spells). 1 Yes you too can have all your research and scrolls and miscellanea alchemical gear blow around your lab 24/7 with a Permanent Gust of Wind Blowing out your BLANK! 2 Paranoid and distracted by what they like to do the most and that takes most of their brain power while working 3 If they don't catch you by surprise that's a great idea.:rolleyes: 4 If they didn't Dispell or Suppress them on their way to the wizard Like any good adventure group does.
Votan 12-17-06, 10:10 PM	One thing to worry about with a crafting wizard (and this guy sounds a bit like one) is the possible presence of Craft Contingency. With about 19 of them up and ready, most of the "clever" tricks would have a reasonable contingency prepared. In the vast majority of cases, a contingent teleport will make the problem go away. This creates the awkward situation where he gets several second chances but only needs to get lucky once. A signle Horrid Wilting spell is probably more than the party can repel.
Manic Man 12-18-06, 04:27 AM	Excellent, so when the OP reaches 19th level, you will die to a few low level characters looking to loot you with dust of sneezing and choking. Turnaround is always fair game
[GSV] Kirstar 12-18-06, 10:53 AM	If the dm has even half a brain he could splat you guys without breaking a sweat. His simulcrum could splat you without difficulty as well.
Jancarius 12-18-06, 12:10 PM	How does one counter the Dust, by the way?
Lord_Tirian 12-18-06, 12:24 PM	He is called THE SURGEON IN THE SHADOWS Bingo! Look here! (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?arch_stuff59) Note that this is a pre-Ptolus version, out of Monte's campaign. I'm not familiar with Ptolus (but with Chaositech), so the stats may have changed, if Monte included him in the Big Book. If he uses the stats... then, don't get in Melee with him, because his claws will tear you apart.
Ian Demagi 12-18-06, 12:36 PM	"Kinion Luth is not meant to provide you with a combat encounter. Instead, he is the source of the strange chaositech devices or enhancements the PCs' adversaries suddenly possess. " Now that I have read this: Can you tell me now why in the world your DM is having you fight this guy? Ian
diegosephroth 12-18-06, 12:36 PM	Believe me. Even if your DM was a blind narcoletic child, if he played with a 19 level spellcaster against your lv5 average party, he would kick your ass. And enjoy it. Even the DM guide says about it. It is something like "there is no suitable xp for this kind of encounter because it is virtually impossible for you to win/lose. Even if that miraculously happened, it would be due to high luck(so that yous characters wouldn't make anything to woth the xp) or near to divine intervention" To be true, probably his famliliar could kick your asses by himself.
Damionte 12-18-06, 01:33 PM	Now that we have more information on it. It's a fools errand. Your only real hope is a prolonged campagn that levels you all up to around 12-15th before you confront him directly again. He simply has too many resources and too much persoan power. I mean it's not just that you have to defeat him which you really don't have the baility to do wihtout some really dumb luck. You don't have the baility to get close enough to him. His henchmen and followers are strong enough to beat you guys down without him. Considering the type of individual you're after you're not oging to fight him alone. As far as the low level party defeating him, forgetabout it.
striderII 12-18-06, 02:43 PM	To those that are claiming the DM is an idiot, etc (paraphrased a bit, there): I am the DM in question. I didn't write this plot, nor did I change the plot as written to include Kinion Luth. What I *am* doing is using the Night of Dissolution adventure from the Ptolus campaign setting, as it hits upon quite a few of the "different" things about Ptolus that make it stand out from your "typical" D&D setting, as a way to educate the players about the new things, and get us all (myself and the players alike) more familiar with the setting, as this is our first run through Ptolus. So...any vitriol you have (as misplaced as it is, unless you actually own the Ptolus CS and understand the way things work there) can be shifted suitably, or simply removed. While yes, I chose to run this adventure without modification, there are actually worse encounters within in (inasmuch as the encounter with Luth is *not* a combat encounter, as he DOESN'T FIGHT at all). Now...the PC's could conceivably try to hunt him down at a later date - when they're higher level. With where they are in the Night of Dissolution adventure, they have more important things to worry about than some insane nut of a spellcaster(ish). When they have time, they can hunt him down and try to deal with him then. Of course, this doesn't take into account any allies Luth may or may not have, but I digress. Why is it that the mentality I've seen from the posters on this thread seem to run in the vein of "if you encounter something/someone, you must fight it"? I'm honestly wondering this here, really. Would anyone care to enlighten me? strider
Manyfist 12-18-06, 03:04 PM	To those that are claiming the DM is an idiot, etc (paraphrased a bit, there): I am the DM in question. I didn't write this plot, nor did I change the plot as written to include Kinion Luth. What I *am* doing is using the Night of Dissolution adventure from the Ptolus campaign setting, as it hits upon quite a few of the "different" things about Ptolus that make it stand out from your "typical" D&D setting, as a way to educate the players about the new things, and get us all (myself and the players alike) more familiar with the setting, as this is our first run through Ptolus. So...any vitriol you have (as misplaced as it is, unless you actually own the Ptolus CS and understand the way things work there) can be shifted suitably, or simply removed. While yes, I chose to run this adventure without modification, there are actually worse encounters within in (inasmuch as the encounter with Luth is *not* a combat encounter, as he DOESN'T FIGHT at all). Now...the PC's could conceivably try to hunt him down at a later date - when they're higher level. With where they are in the Night of Dissolution adventure, they have more important things to worry about than some insane nut of a spellcaster(ish). When they have time, they can hunt him down and try to deal with him then. Of course, this doesn't take into account any allies Luth may or may not have, but I digress. Why is it that the mentality I've seen from the posters on this thread seem to run in the vein of "if you encounter something/someone, you must fight it"? I'm honestly wondering this here, really. Would anyone care to enlighten me? strider Well talk to your player. He obviously thinks he's going to take the guy down. Dispite the lack of information he gave, or anything. Only info he gave was A 19 Wiz/Sor and His team mates. Nothing else was said. Maybe you should inform your players that he's not up for combat.;)
striderII 12-18-06, 03:23 PM	Well talk to your player. He obviously thinks he's going to take the guy down. Dispite the lack of information he gave, or anything. Only info he gave was A 19 Wiz/Sor and His team mates. Nothing else was said. Maybe you should inform your players that he's not up for combat.;) If I'd like to encourage metagaming, I'll be sure to take your advice. Remember - the only reason my player knows the guy's CR (and that's CR, not level - which was completely revealed by that link to the NPC's stats) is that I admittedly slipped after game by mentioning it. Sure, that was a mistake on my part, but I also trust that my players won't metagame that information, either. They *are* aware that he is significantly more powerful than they are (as they watched him, ICly, cast a Teleport spell), but not his exact level or anything. What's really amusing is that they have the IC means to figure that out should they see him again - a Ptolus-specific spell called Assess Creature, that gives you the relative power of the target creature (translated to the player as HD). Besides, that didn't answer my question - why (especially in an urban campaign with innumerable NPC's present) would the posters here assume that every encountered NPC is there to defeat in combat? strider
sigea 12-18-06, 05:59 PM	Strider, Thanks for the clarification. What you have neglected to remember is that most of the posters have stated that there is no chance to take this guy down, walk away, know when your beat etc etc. After dozens of these "tips on how to defeat him" we were all shot down as negative nay sayers from the OP him\her self. If that was the OP's view of things, you don't need to wonder why other posters have this every NPC must die mentality, that is the mentality asked for by the OP.
journeyman777 12-18-06, 06:08 PM	Besides, that didn't answer my question - why (especially in an urban campaign with innumerable NPC's present) would the posters here assume that every encountered NPC is there to defeat in combat?To be fair, many of the posts so far have said "you obviously aren't supposed to fight this guy, run away!" or variations on that theme. However, the OP asked how to prepare for such a fight. So, being the helpful people some of us are, we answered the question. How does one counter the Dust, by the way?There's a spell that creates a bubble of clear air around your head (complete immunity to airborn attacks like stinking cloud or inhaled poisons). I'll go through my books and find it again if you really want me to. Edit: The spell is called "Filter". It's on pg 89 of Tome and Blood.
Lord_Tirian 12-18-06, 08:11 PM	If that was the OP's view of things, you don't need to wonder why other posters have this every NPC must die mentality, that is the mentality asked for by the OP. Exactly... very early, this was posted: My advice? Apologize for the "mistake", and don't be too proud to grovel in character. Or out of character, whatever works. There is no way you can win against someone who is capable of altering reality as he sees fit, unless you are likewise capable. And at level six, you are not so lucky. Hopefully, the DM/Wizard will show mercy. This was pretty much spot on - it was clear, that this won't be even a fight... and it implied (but not spelled out) that it was not going to be a combat encounter. I wanted real, solid, tangible advice on how my party can take down this guy! <...> Isn't this the same crowd that can somehow figure out how to bend any rule and warp any principle of gaming? THINK! WHO YA GONNA TELL?See? Your player was totally focused on defeating the our surgeon. Every other opinion was discounted, well, now it's clarified... if you ever get to play out the encounter, feel free to post the course of events.
striderII 12-18-06, 08:54 PM	Hmm...good point, guys. Now I know who to blame.... *gets the beating stick ready for game on Friday* ;) strider
telldel 12-18-06, 10:45 PM	Hey, like I said before.. If I wanted advice on how to hide, run, flee, or beg for my life, then I would have named the thread "How best to beg for my life before a level 19 wizard" but instead I named it "How to KILL a level 19 wizard." It's a CHALLENGE. Some of you have taken it as that, others have not. Those of you that have not have told me how to beg, run, and hide. Is it my character's intentions to hunt down this guy and kill him? No, not right now. Is it my character's intentions to find out more information? YES!!! Is it my character's intentions to try and be prepared for, what he can only assume will be inevitable, our next encounter? YES!!! See, the party has really put a disruption into this guy's cult now. We've tangled with them on no fewer than four occassions, each time drawing their attention in a negative way. This guy isn't the only high-level guy we've run into, either. My character is trying to be prepared for ALL eventualities! IF this guy were to come gunning for us, I want us to know him and have a plan of action. He isn't going to be one of those characters that you can tackle "on the fly." You've got to have a gameplan BEFORE you encounter him again. Oh, and guys, he CAN be surprised. We did it once, we can do it again, I'm sure. I SERIOUSLY think that you're overestimating the potential power of a potential level 19 wizard. Everyone is saying, "He could have this, he could have that, he could know this spell, he could have this item..." But he can't have ALL of that, right? I mean, unless he removes himself from reality altogether he can't be completely invulnerable. Wizards, in general, have some pretty major weaknesses. Why do you think they often have tanks in front of them? I just wanted to know the best way to exploit those weaknesses. Oh, and some of you need to learn to identify sarcasm, hyperbole, and false bravado... WHO YA GONNA TELL? TELLDEL
sigea 12-18-06, 11:36 PM	Is it my character's intentions to hunt down this guy and kill him? No, not right now. Is it my character's intentions to find out more information? YES!!! Is it my character's intentions to try and be prepared for, what he can only assume will be inevitable, our next encounter? YES!!! See, the party has really put a disruption into this guy's cult now. We've tangled with them on no fewer than four occassions, each time drawing their attention in a negative way. This guy isn't the only high-level guy we've run into, either. My character is trying to be prepared for ALL eventualities! IF this guy were to come gunning for us, I want us to know him and have a plan of action. He isn't going to be one of those characters that you can tackle "on the fly." You've got to have a gameplan BEFORE you encounter him again. Oh, and guys, he CAN be surprised. We did it once, we can do it again, I'm sure. I SERIOUSLY think that you're overestimating the potential power of a potential level 19 wizard. Everyone is saying, "He could have this, he could have that, he could know this spell, he could have this item..." But he can't have ALL of that, right? I mean, unless he removes himself from reality altogether he can't be completely invulnerable. Wizards, in general, have some pretty major weaknesses. Why do you think they often have tanks in front of them? I just wanted to know the best way to exploit those weaknesses. Oh, and some of you need to learn to identify sarcasm, hyperbole, and false bravado... WHO YA GONNA TELL? TELLDEL So now we here that you don't intend to fight him right now, that your intention is to find out as much information as you can and go after him when you are ready. Isn't that the same thing we have said all along in a much more condensed version, eg run away and come back when you CAN tackle him. We never said never, we just said no to right now, read between the lines. From what you have said above, you want to be 100% prepared for when you accidently run into him again and catch him by surprise while being prepared for all other encounters? NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. And as for overestimating a level 19 mage, you are a fruit cake. like I have stated before, when YOUR parties mage gets to level 19, he\she would kill a party of 10 sixth level characters before the surprise round has STARTED yet alone finished, why assume that an NPC mage is any different? Hec, your level 6 mage would kill 10 level 6 party members now with little problem if used correctly\was lucky.
journeyman777 12-19-06, 09:52 AM	Why do you think they often have tanks in front of them?According to many on these boards, they don't. Somehow the opinion that mages are all-powerful and invulnerable at high levels has become widespread. According to such, there is no need (or even use) for a tank at lv 15 - 20, heck, they don't even need healers because they are INVINCIBLE! *insert maniacal laughter here* Really, I think your attitude is one of the finest examples of not metagaming I've seen in a while. The CR guidelines are not in-character knowledge. As far as your characters know, combat with this guy is a distinct possibility and you just want the best odds you can get. Bravo. Were I your DM , I would be awarding you RP xp for this. And as for overestimating a level 19 mage, you are a fruit cake. like I have stated before, when YOUR parties mage gets to level 19, he\she would kill a party of 10 sixth level characters before the surprise round has STARTED yet alone finished, why assume that an NPC mage is any different? Hec, your level 6 mage would kill 10 level 6 party members now with little problem if used correctly\was lucky. 1. Do not insult your fellow posters. That is a CoC violation. 2. It is absolutely impossible to win a combat before the suprise round starts. 3. NPC mages a. Do not have the same wealth/lv PCs do b. Are presumably built using the elite array. (so no 18 stats at lv 1) c. Are generally not built using multiple splatbooks. d. Do not spend their entire lives in constant fear of being attacked. e. Are not built by Char-Op guidelines f. Have you even looked at the sample wizards in the DMG or splatbooks? 4. Taking on 10 lv 6PC characters would be a CR 12-13 encounter. If you think all that takes is a little luck/being used properly, your characters must a. not exist. b. have treasure far beyond the wealth/lv guidlines c. have stats equivalent to a substantial LA d. be a die-hard powergamed build pitted against completely unoptimised foes So, why should he assume an NPC mage is different? Quite simple really, the books say they are.
FeanorCursed 12-19-06, 11:04 AM	Reach lvl 7 as a wizard. Become a Pun-Pun. Kill him.:bored:
Manyfist 12-19-06, 11:16 AM	Remember - the only reason my player knows the guy's CR (and that's CR, not level - which was completely revealed by that link to the NPC's stats) is that I admittedly slipped after game by mentioning it. Sure, that was a mistake on my part, but I also trust that my players won't metagame that information, either. They *are* aware that he is significantly more powerful than they are (as they watched him, ICly, cast a Teleport spell), but not his exact level or anything. What's really amusing is that they have the IC means to figure that out should they see him again - a Ptolus-specific spell called Assess Creature, that gives you the relative power of the target creature (translated to the player as HD). Besides, that didn't answer my question - why (especially in an urban campaign with innumerable NPC's present) would the posters here assume that every encountered NPC is there to defeat in combat? strider Read the thread. If its your player then you should know what he's saying. "Best way to kill a lvl 19 wiz/sorc". I said on numerous accounts to run away, this guy would mob the floor with you. You should ask your players that, since one of them thinks to kill the guy now would be the best. We have no other information about this guy, other than he's some type of werido, and is very powerful. We assumed he's going to be in a tower with tons of minons all around the tower and inside. So once the players defeat the minons (attack anyone except him) the Wiz would be well perpared to open up with Save or Dies. Read the OP's original post.
chucky 12-19-06, 11:28 AM	From what ive read in this thread about the wizard in question. You would be lucky if he only killed you and didnt just hold cast hold monster and then cut your arms and legs off for spare parts and then leave you hanging in a corner somewhere to play with when he is bored. The gm of the campaign is right. Not everything you meet is there for you to kill. If you were walking through shadowdale and decided to take a crap and kicked open the door to the local outhouse and elminster was in there. Would you just suddenly decide that you had to kill him? Because if thats your mentality your going to need alot of extra chars made for the constant deaths your chars will be having. But if you were that retarted or suicidal the only way to do it would be to emass a large army and hunt him down. Just dont make any close bonds with any of them most likly they are all going to die. Their job is to distract him long enough for you to do your suicide charge on him while he is buisy roasting your armies.
Jancarius 12-19-06, 01:14 PM	According to many on these boards, they don't. Somehow the opinion that mages are all-powerful and invulnerable at high levels has become widespread. According to such, there is no need (or even use) for a tank at lv 15 - 20, heck, they don't even need healers because they are INVINCIBLE! *insert maniacal laughter here* Really, I think your attitude is one of the finest examples of not metagaming I've seen in a while. The CR guidelines are not in-character knowledge. As far as your characters know, combat with this guy is a distinct possibility and you just want the best odds you can get. Bravo. Were I your DM , I would be awarding you RP xp for this.I don't think RP experience is an appropriate reward for going to the Wizards forum and asking other people to do your planning for you. [RANT] 1. Do not insult your fellow posters. That is a CoC violation. 2. It is absolutely impossible to win a combat before the suprise round starts.Correct, in the sense that hitting them with a spell unexpectedly 'starts' the surprise round. 3. NPC mages a. Do not have the same wealth/lv PCs do b. Are presumably built using the elite array. (so no 18 stats at lv 1) c. Are generally not built using multiple splatbooks. d. Do not spend their entire lives in constant fear of being attacked. e. Are not built by Char-Op guidelines f. Have you even looked at the sample wizards in the DMG or splatbooks?A) I've never held to this rule for 'major' npcs of my campaign. To me, major NPCs, BBEG and their primary henchmen, are just PCs who are against the players. As such, I generally generate them using PC level gear. B) Eh, sometimes true for my games. Villains of the entire arc usually have one 18 at L1, if not more. I know that sounds a little off, but I give my players a fairly generous 4d6, roll 7 times, drop lowest, 3 sets, choose your set stat method. C) If by splatbooks you mean Complete series, expanded campaign setting books, etc, I almost always utilize 1 and occasinally 2 in the case of unusual class characters D) Fair enough. I do this to my players/friends too when we're discussing wizards, and presume that the wizard is constantly prepared and tracking all characters who are potential threats to him, because that's what I'd have my wizard's apprentices doing. Wizards without apprentices probably have things they'd rather be doing, so would need golems or other servants to do their watching for them. But not all wizards are as interested in what other high level characters are doing as I. E) Very true. Some of those Char-op wizards COULD take apart an even level party, presuming the party lacked a wizard themselves. F) Yes, actually, I usually find the NPCs presented in some of the splatbooks to be... woefully lacking. Elminster, in the ELH for example, is a complete pushover for a L30 character. While ones having NPC classes are generally right on (Especially the case in Eberron where its rare that NPCs don't have NPC Class levels), for my main villains and their primary henchmen, I want them to be memorable fights, not "Oh, that guy we mowed down in a 4 v 1 fight was your right hand man? Might want to look for a new hand." 4. Taking on 10 lv 6PC characters would be a CR 12-13 encounter. If you think all that takes is a little luck/being used properly, your characters must a. not exist. b. have treasure far beyond the wealth/lv guidlines c. have stats equivalent to a substantial LA d. be a die-hard powergamed build pitted against completely unoptimised foesA) Not true at all. B) Again not true. C) Given average PC stats, I could do it. D) Again, not true. What it would take here is the 1 wizard having the following advantages: Surprise. Anonymity. Luck in how the 10 L6s are positioned. Luck in them failing their saving throws. The simplest, and probably least effective method would be to throw a sudden maximized fireball into the midst of them while using Improved Invisibility. Presuming none of them are wearing fire resistance at L6, that's a 30 damage fireball, save for half. This should, on average, eliminate all the wizard/sorcs, and quite possibly the D6 hitdie characters who fail their reflex saves. Thusly, you've just killed all the peopel who might have access to See Invisiblity. With two bards and some potential UMD, you may want to go with a scorching ray against them and other agile characters that made their reflex saves (particularly those with Evasion) and then move immediatly after firing each time so they don't get your position. At the end of R1, we can presume (Giving the 10 characters: 1 wizard, 1 sorcerer, 1 rogue, 1 bard, 1 ranger, 1 fighter, 1 cleric, 1 druid, 1 paladin, 1 monk) that the wizard and sorcerer are dead (or at least in negative HP). If the bard and rogue failed their reflex save, they are also quite possibly dead or dying, and the scorching ray could easily stick them farther into that category. The wizard, having a wand of magic missiles or scorching ray, or pretty much any other consistent DPS offensive spell can then take his time, eliminating the paladin (if he's evil, the paladin might try using detect evil to get a fix on him. A longshot, but take away all the enemies chances), cleric and druid next. The monk comes after teh divine casters, and the fighter and ranger are just mop up work, assuming your in a city so that the ranger can't try and find your tracks during combat or anything like that. Wallah, 1 L7 wizard defeats a whole L6 party. If he used a scroll of Improved Invis, you can bump him back down to 6.
sigea 12-19-06, 06:07 PM	1. Do not insult your fellow posters. That is a CoC violation. 2. It is absolutely impossible to win a combat before the suprise round starts. 3. NPC mages a. Do not have the same wealth/lv PCs do b. Are presumably built using the elite array. (so no 18 stats at lv 1) c. Are generally not built using multiple splatbooks. d. Do not spend their entire lives in constant fear of being attacked. e. Are not built by Char-Op guidelines f. Have you even looked at the sample wizards in the DMG or splatbooks? 4. Taking on 10 lv 6PC characters would be a CR 12-13 encounter. If you think all that takes is a little luck/being used properly, your characters must a. not exist. b. have treasure far beyond the wealth/lv guidlines c. have stats equivalent to a substantial LA d. be a die-hard powergamed build pitted against completely unoptimised foes So, why should he assume an NPC mage is different? Quite simple really, the books say they are. [/RANT] 1, Sorry I do apologise Telldel (and anyone else offended), my frustrations at work (and the fact that the game I was to play this weekend was cancelled)had spilled over to this board. No excuse I realise, all I can do is offer my apologise. 2, Not if you have a clever mage that doesn't allow combat to occur. I would assume (rightly or wrongly) that these guys are going at him in HIS place of residence, which, to my mind would mean trappeds, continngencies, summoned monsters etc etc. So technically Yes, you can die before the surprise round. remember, the mage is heavily outside their league, and so to should his residence. 3, In my game (and I understand this is only my game) I hold to a very simple philosophy: I allow PC's to have nearly anything in any WOTC book, but they know up front, that anything they can do, so can the opposition. Also, as Jancarius noted, my BBEG are not carbon copies of DMG classes, my level 18 mage with have the resource\skills\feats\ability scores etc of those available to the PC's. More work for the DM I know, but to me and my group it adds realism. 4, Thank you Jancarius
Manic Man 12-20-06, 01:03 AM	According to many on these boards, they don't. Somehow the opinion that mages are all-powerful and invulnerable at high levels has become widespread. According to such, there is no need (or even use) for a tank at lv 15 - 20, heck, they don't even need healers because they are INVINCIBLE! *insert maniacal laughter here* Thats because they have access to things like permanency, simulacrum, contengency, etc. ALL CAST OUT OF COMBAT. A wizard who is intelligent enough to have precautions will not die to level 4 6 PCs. Really, I think your attitude is one of the finest examples of not metagaming I've seen in a while. The CR guidelines are not in-character knowledge. As far as your characters know, combat with this guy is a distinct possibility and you just want the best odds you can get. Bravo. Were I your DM , I would be awarding you RP xp for this. Sure, give him xp. Then he dies when attempting to kill the level 19 spellcaster. Maybe he will have enough to raise 1 level before raise dead drops his level back 1. 2. It is absolutely impossible to win a combat before the suprise round starts. Nope, it is. Time stop, move a bit, drop a delayed blast, escape. Is this surprise round? Has initiative been rolled? b. Are presumably built using the elite array. (so no 18 stats at lv 1) So elminister is built with the elite array? Drizzt? Mordenkainen? c. Are generally not built using multiple splatbooks. Anything usable by players are fair game. If players are pulling spells, feats, etc out of 20 books, why do NPCs get restricted? Then you would be metagaming. d. Do not spend their entire lives in constant fear of being attacked. You must be kidding. If i know when you're naked without weapons, without spells, etc and i hate you, i would teleport in and kill you. Would someone strong enough hate you when you're 19th level? f. Have you even looked at the sample wizards in the DMG or splatbooks? The NPCs are the GENERIC CHARACTERS. They are supposed to be used when there is a call for random monsters or random NPCS NOT NAMED NPCS 4. Taking on 10 lv 6PC characters would be a CR 12-13 encounter. If you think all that takes is a little luck/being used properly, your characters must a. not exist. b. have treasure far beyond the wealth/lv guidlines c. have stats equivalent to a substantial LA d. be a die-hard powergamed build pitted against completely unoptimised foes b/c/d.So the PCs are of a CR higher than their level? NPCs who fight them will get more xp than a CR = to the PC's level?