Best way to use Shapechange? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best way to use Shapechange? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
satanicway
04-05-07, 09:47 PM What are the best Shapechange tricks for a druid? (Lv18)

Any way to assume spell-like abilitys?
No obscure, or 3.0 books plz.
runestar
04-05-07, 10:03 PM Books available? Define obscure.
Magetastic
04-05-07, 10:26 PM There's always the balor factory.
runestar
04-05-07, 10:36 PM I hope you are not implying that shapechanging into a balor nets you free vorpal longswords....;)
Seeker95
04-05-07, 11:02 PM The best way to use shapechange is to take a form that provides whatever utility you need at the time (out of combat), or to take the greatest advantage of your opponent's weakness (in combat).

Since both of those are circumstantial, the answer is "it depends".
satanicway
04-06-07, 01:33 AM Humm.
Obscure books= any non-WoTC, or anything that isnt published in a book, like official articles. I cant use this material with my druid.

About the Balor-> In fact you get the +1 Vorpal Sword, but you loose the ability when you shapechange into another monster or the shapechange ends, so the sword disappear.

I need something to find a mage that teleported somewhere and now is buffing himself to kick us. And something to own that damn mage.

(Hes probably a Fighter/Mage, since hes using a fullplate last time we have seen him, and since he took 220 of damage already and is still alive. He probably will down if we can do some more damage on him, maybe 80)

( Any link to Shapechange cheese forms will be appreciated. )

A good question: Fiend Folio was printed after or before 3.5 cores?
runestar
04-06-07, 02:52 AM About the Balor-> In fact you get the +1 Vorpal Sword, but you loose the ability when you shapechange into another monster or the shapechange ends, so the sword disappear.
That still does not make sense, despite what the MM entry states. I would be inclined to say that the SU ability refers to the balor's ability to make his vorpal sword appear as a bolt of lightning. It seems dumb that his vorpal weapon will wink out in an AMF...:confused:

Fiend folio has the zodar and chronotyn. :)
satanicway
04-06-07, 03:05 AM Fiend Folio is 3.0 =/

No... the Su dont make the sword look likes anything, the Su is having this sword.

A Balor comes to existence with one of this. Its part of theyr being, a gift from the mighty evil powers that granted his existence.
Thats why all his gear explodes with him when he dies. And thats why he reappears in the abyss with his sword back, and now need to wait 100 years to back to material plane.
runestar
04-06-07, 08:16 AM Thats why all his gear explodes with him when he dies.
No, his gear explodes when he dies as they are caught in his death throes. In theory, a fighter could try to disarm him and stash his vorpal longsword in a bag of holding. This would ensure that his vorpal longsword survives his death throes.

Where is it stated that all balors are birthed with their own vorpal weapon?:confused:
Witch
04-06-07, 08:20 AM A Balor comes to existence with one of this. Its part of theyr being, a gift from the mighty evil powers that granted his existence.
A Balor is a demon. It is an individual foremost. It does not depend on "the mighty evil powers that granted his existence". It has evolved to be amonst the mightiest demons the Abyss has to offer, by his own effort. Certainly there might be exceptions, but those are, by definition, rare.
Seeker95
04-06-07, 08:49 AM No... the Su dont make the sword look likes anything, the Su is having this sword.And the rules don't say you can't stop playing after you're dead. The condition of being dead does not have any restrictions, unlike the condition of dying.

Sometimes a little bit of grey matter has to go into the process.
satanicway
04-06-07, 09:38 AM A Balor is a demon. It is an individual foremost. It does not depend on "the mighty evil powers that granted his existence". It has evolved to be amonst the mightiest demons the Abyss has to offer, by his own effort. Certainly there might be exceptions, but those are, by definition, rare.

The essence of Abyss by itself is a Might Evil Power.
Never read about planar essences? Like Lord Ao?
Even Asmodeus or the great evil gods of rank 20 are just toys in the hands of the true cosmic powers.

The Source from Planescape remembers something? -_-'
Planar essences > gods > demon kings > balors ...
Balors just think they are powerfull. They are so weak that they dont even know who command they.
Witch
04-06-07, 09:41 AM For one, I disagree with your "gods > demon kings". For another, planar essences aren't conscious (though that depends on the cosmology). As far as I know, they aren't in planescape. Balors are powerful. Not relative to Demogorgon, but they are relative to the majority of "life" in the Abyss.
runestar
04-06-07, 10:10 AM I think the vorpal sword can be explained away in the same manner as the +1 dancing vorpal axe the molydeus from fiendish codex 1 gets. It would not supernatural(it is an actual item, which it gets from some ritual, and renders the earlier version useless). But it does help explain why every balor comes equipped with a vorpal longsword as their signature weapon rather than some other weapon. It is not as if there is some demon armoury which doles out vorpal longswords to every newly-formed balor...:P
Magetastic
04-06-07, 11:43 AM I've always liked Kolyauts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#kolyarut) as a form for shapechange SR, fast healing, vampiric touch, and their coolest ability they can spam enervations all day (against a wizard it means they lose their best spells among the other penalties) and it has fingers and can speak so you keep your spellcasting.

Overseer (pg. 139 from lords of madness) is sheer awesome it has 8 tentacles and 3 bites so you can wade into combat it also has eye rays like a beholder but better it can hit with dominate person, greater dispel magic, temporal stasis, telekinesis and use its' natural attack IN THE SAME ROUND and if the opponent casts a spell at you just neutralize it with the reactive spell immunity or spell turning eyes also it nets you a +20 ac bonus (+14 natural +6 armor +1 dex -1 size) and SR 23.

Dread wraith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm#dreadWraith) is cool it has incorporeal, a dex of 28, lifesense, unnatural aura, and most importantly create spawn yeah turn those useless commoners into undead minions.
ArcTan
04-06-07, 04:13 PM That still does not make sense, despite what the MM entry states. I would be inclined to say that the SU ability refers to the balor's ability to make his vorpal sword appear as a bolt of lightning. It seems dumb that his vorpal weapon will wink out in an AMF...:confused:

Fiend folio has the zodar and chronotyn. :)

The ability's name is "Vorpal Sword", not "cool-looking vorpal sword". Moreover, the ability just says that balors have vorpal swords that happen to look like flames or bolts of lightning, not that they have the supernatural ability to *cause* them to look like flames or bolts of lightning.

My honest opinion is that this is just crappy writing, based on older versions of D&D where monsters were like monsters from a lot of video games, just enemies to be defeated who always looked the same and had the same equipment, which you weren't expected to harvest from the body after they died. Saying that the sword itself is a (Su) ability is stupid, and any good DM will ignore that.

The main reason to point out the "balor factory" exploit is to point out how stupid, in fact, a lot of monster entries are, and why one shouldn't blindly trust the designers to balance everything for you. It is a good argument in favor of pulling out the polymorph tree by its roots.
ArcTan
04-06-07, 04:15 PM I think the vorpal sword can be explained away in the same manner as the +1 dancing vorpal axe the molydeus from fiendish codex 1 gets. It would not supernatural(it is an actual item, which it gets from some ritual, and renders the earlier version useless). But it does help explain why every balor comes equipped with a vorpal longsword as their signature weapon rather than some other weapon. It is not as if there is some demon armoury which doles out vorpal longswords to every newly-formed balor...:P

The molydeus has an actual (Su) ability to summon and dismiss its weapon. It's pretty clearly a way to try to explain the balor's (Su) longswords, and as a DM I'd probably rule that the balor's swords work the same way (can always be regenerated after sundering, vanish if you try to remove them from their owner, etc.)
ArcTan
04-06-07, 04:16 PM A Balor is a demon. It is an individual foremost. It does not depend on "the mighty evil powers that granted his existence". It has evolved to be amonst the mightiest demons the Abyss has to offer, by his own effort. Certainly there might be exceptions, but those are, by definition, rare.

Well, yes, but that doesn't change the question of whether or not the balor gets his vorpal sword *as part of being a balor*, after having achieved that station. The molydeus is a pretty good argument in favor of the vorpal sword being a magical effect they can summon.
tarkin
04-06-07, 04:24 PM No one mentioned the Choker?

core 3.5 monster. Has this cool ability:

Quickness (Su)
Although not particularly dexterous, a choker is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round

As in, you get to cast two spells plus a swift action spell if you want to.
NoldorForce
04-06-07, 09:16 PM The one that tarkin mentioned is probably one of the worst, in fact, being nearly identical to 3.0 Haste.

Do note that polymorph and all derivative spells grant you the type and subtype of the assumed form. And the summoning abilities of devils and demons are inherent in their subtype. Thus you should be able to actually summon certain devils or demons (the demons part is less sure).

Some of the merregon (legion devil) abilities are quite neat if you have a pack of them that you've conveniently contracted with. Make sure to not let them get hit, however, as that's also effectively damage to you.
runestar
04-06-07, 11:15 PM No one mentioned the Choker?
Well, it is inferior to the chronotyn, though it will have to suffice if you lack access to fiend folio, which is technically 3.25(it follows the general 3.5 rules, save for dr and some general inconsistencies about the LA/ECL system). It is clearly not 3.0 material.
Do note that polymorph and all derivative spells grant you the type and subtype of the assumed form. And the summoning abilities of devils and demons are inherent in their subtype. Thus you should be able to actually summon certain devils or demons (the demons part is less sure).
Their demon-summoning ability is a SLA, which shapechange explicitly does not grant. :)
NoldorForce
04-07-07, 12:14 AM Their demon-summoning ability is a SLA, which shapechange explicitly does not grant. :)Forgot about that explicit negation in Polymorph, did I?

That section also seems to void gaining qualities from a subtype...no fire immunity or telepathy for me, it seems...:weep:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
satanicway 04-05-07, 09:47 PM	What are the best Shapechange tricks for a druid? (Lv18) Any way to assume spell-like abilitys? No obscure, or 3.0 books plz.
runestar 04-05-07, 10:03 PM	Books available? Define obscure.
Magetastic 04-05-07, 10:26 PM	There's always the balor factory.
runestar 04-05-07, 10:36 PM	I hope you are not implying that shapechanging into a balor nets you free vorpal longswords....;)
Seeker95 04-05-07, 11:02 PM	The best way to use shapechange is to take a form that provides whatever utility you need at the time (out of combat), or to take the greatest advantage of your opponent's weakness (in combat). Since both of those are circumstantial, the answer is "it depends".
satanicway 04-06-07, 01:33 AM	Humm. Obscure books= any non-WoTC, or anything that isnt published in a book, like official articles. I cant use this material with my druid. About the Balor-> In fact you get the +1 Vorpal Sword, but you loose the ability when you shapechange into another monster or the shapechange ends, so the sword disappear. I need something to find a mage that teleported somewhere and now is buffing himself to kick us. And something to own that damn mage. (Hes probably a Fighter/Mage, since hes using a fullplate last time we have seen him, and since he took 220 of damage already and is still alive. He probably will down if we can do some more damage on him, maybe 80) ( Any link to Shapechange cheese forms will be appreciated. ) A good question: Fiend Folio was printed after or before 3.5 cores?
runestar 04-06-07, 02:52 AM	About the Balor-> In fact you get the +1 Vorpal Sword, but you loose the ability when you shapechange into another monster or the shapechange ends, so the sword disappear. That still does not make sense, despite what the MM entry states. I would be inclined to say that the SU ability refers to the balor's ability to make his vorpal sword appear as a bolt of lightning. It seems dumb that his vorpal weapon will wink out in an AMF...:confused: Fiend folio has the zodar and chronotyn. :)
satanicway 04-06-07, 03:05 AM	Fiend Folio is 3.0 =/ No... the Su dont make the sword look likes anything, the Su is having this sword. A Balor comes to existence with one of this. Its part of theyr being, a gift from the mighty evil powers that granted his existence. Thats why all his gear explodes with him when he dies. And thats why he reappears in the abyss with his sword back, and now need to wait 100 years to back to material plane.
runestar 04-06-07, 08:16 AM	Thats why all his gear explodes with him when he dies. No, his gear explodes when he dies as they are caught in his death throes. In theory, a fighter could try to disarm him and stash his vorpal longsword in a bag of holding. This would ensure that his vorpal longsword survives his death throes. Where is it stated that all balors are birthed with their own vorpal weapon?:confused:
Witch 04-06-07, 08:20 AM	A Balor comes to existence with one of this. Its part of theyr being, a gift from the mighty evil powers that granted his existence. A Balor is a demon. It is an individual foremost. It does not depend on "the mighty evil powers that granted his existence". It has evolved to be amonst the mightiest demons the Abyss has to offer, by his own effort. Certainly there might be exceptions, but those are, by definition, rare.
Seeker95 04-06-07, 08:49 AM	No... the Su dont make the sword look likes anything, the Su is having this sword.And the rules don't say you can't stop playing after you're dead. The condition of being dead does not have any restrictions, unlike the condition of dying. Sometimes a little bit of grey matter has to go into the process.
satanicway 04-06-07, 09:38 AM	A Balor is a demon. It is an individual foremost. It does not depend on "the mighty evil powers that granted his existence". It has evolved to be amonst the mightiest demons the Abyss has to offer, by his own effort. Certainly there might be exceptions, but those are, by definition, rare. The essence of Abyss by itself is a Might Evil Power. Never read about planar essences? Like Lord Ao? Even Asmodeus or the great evil gods of rank 20 are just toys in the hands of the true cosmic powers. The Source from Planescape remembers something? -_-' Planar essences > gods > demon kings > balors ... Balors just think they are powerfull. They are so weak that they dont even know who command they.
Witch 04-06-07, 09:41 AM	For one, I disagree with your "gods > demon kings". For another, planar essences aren't conscious (though that depends on the cosmology). As far as I know, they aren't in planescape. Balors are powerful. Not relative to Demogorgon, but they are relative to the majority of "life" in the Abyss.
runestar 04-06-07, 10:10 AM	I think the vorpal sword can be explained away in the same manner as the +1 dancing vorpal axe the molydeus from fiendish codex 1 gets. It would not supernatural(it is an actual item, which it gets from some ritual, and renders the earlier version useless). But it does help explain why every balor comes equipped with a vorpal longsword as their signature weapon rather than some other weapon. It is not as if there is some demon armoury which doles out vorpal longswords to every newly-formed balor...:P
Magetastic 04-06-07, 11:43 AM	I've always liked Kolyauts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#kolyarut) as a form for shapechange SR, fast healing, vampiric touch, and their coolest ability they can spam enervations all day (against a wizard it means they lose their best spells among the other penalties) and it has fingers and can speak so you keep your spellcasting. Overseer (pg. 139 from lords of madness) is sheer awesome it has 8 tentacles and 3 bites so you can wade into combat it also has eye rays like a beholder but better it can hit with dominate person, greater dispel magic, temporal stasis, telekinesis and use its' natural attack IN THE SAME ROUND and if the opponent casts a spell at you just neutralize it with the reactive spell immunity or spell turning eyes also it nets you a +20 ac bonus (+14 natural +6 armor +1 dex -1 size) and SR 23. Dread wraith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm#dreadWraith) is cool it has incorporeal, a dex of 28, lifesense, unnatural aura, and most importantly create spawn yeah turn those useless commoners into undead minions.
ArcTan 04-06-07, 04:13 PM	That still does not make sense, despite what the MM entry states. I would be inclined to say that the SU ability refers to the balor's ability to make his vorpal sword appear as a bolt of lightning. It seems dumb that his vorpal weapon will wink out in an AMF...:confused: Fiend folio has the zodar and chronotyn. :) The ability's name is "Vorpal Sword", not "cool-looking vorpal sword". Moreover, the ability just says that balors have vorpal swords that happen to look like flames or bolts of lightning, not that they have the supernatural ability to cause them to look like flames or bolts of lightning. My honest opinion is that this is just crappy writing, based on older versions of D&D where monsters were like monsters from a lot of video games, just enemies to be defeated who always looked the same and had the same equipment, which you weren't expected to harvest from the body after they died. Saying that the sword itself is a (Su) ability is stupid, and any good DM will ignore that. The main reason to point out the "balor factory" exploit is to point out how stupid, in fact, a lot of monster entries are, and why one shouldn't blindly trust the designers to balance everything for you. It is a good argument in favor of pulling out the polymorph tree by its roots.
ArcTan 04-06-07, 04:15 PM	I think the vorpal sword can be explained away in the same manner as the +1 dancing vorpal axe the molydeus from fiendish codex 1 gets. It would not supernatural(it is an actual item, which it gets from some ritual, and renders the earlier version useless). But it does help explain why every balor comes equipped with a vorpal longsword as their signature weapon rather than some other weapon. It is not as if there is some demon armoury which doles out vorpal longswords to every newly-formed balor...:P The molydeus has an actual (Su) ability to summon and dismiss its weapon. It's pretty clearly a way to try to explain the balor's (Su) longswords, and as a DM I'd probably rule that the balor's swords work the same way (can always be regenerated after sundering, vanish if you try to remove them from their owner, etc.)
ArcTan 04-06-07, 04:16 PM	A Balor is a demon. It is an individual foremost. It does not depend on "the mighty evil powers that granted his existence". It has evolved to be amonst the mightiest demons the Abyss has to offer, by his own effort. Certainly there might be exceptions, but those are, by definition, rare. Well, yes, but that doesn't change the question of whether or not the balor gets his vorpal sword as part of being a balor, after having achieved that station. The molydeus is a pretty good argument in favor of the vorpal sword being a magical effect they can summon.
tarkin 04-06-07, 04:24 PM	No one mentioned the Choker? core 3.5 monster. Has this cool ability: Quickness (Su) Although not particularly dexterous, a choker is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round As in, you get to cast two spells plus a swift action spell if you want to.
NoldorForce 04-06-07, 09:16 PM	The one that tarkin mentioned is probably one of the worst, in fact, being nearly identical to 3.0 Haste. Do note that polymorph and all derivative spells grant you the type and subtype of the assumed form. And the summoning abilities of devils and demons are inherent in their subtype. Thus you should be able to actually summon certain devils or demons (the demons part is less sure). Some of the merregon (legion devil) abilities are quite neat if you have a pack of them that you've conveniently contracted with. Make sure to not let them get hit, however, as that's also effectively damage to you.
runestar 04-06-07, 11:15 PM	No one mentioned the Choker? Well, it is inferior to the chronotyn, though it will have to suffice if you lack access to fiend folio, which is technically 3.25(it follows the general 3.5 rules, save for dr and some general inconsistencies about the LA/ECL system). It is clearly not 3.0 material. Do note that polymorph and all derivative spells grant you the type and subtype of the assumed form. And the summoning abilities of devils and demons are inherent in their subtype. Thus you should be able to actually summon certain devils or demons (the demons part is less sure). Their demon-summoning ability is a SLA, which shapechange explicitly does not grant. :)
NoldorForce 04-07-07, 12:14 AM	Their demon-summoning ability is a SLA, which shapechange explicitly does not grant. :)Forgot about that explicit negation in Polymorph, did I? That section also seems to void gaining qualities from a subtype...no fire immunity or telepathy for me, it seems...:weep: