Best ways to avoid detection while invisible [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best ways to avoid detection while invisible [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Voidboy
06-15-05, 11:26 AM I'm going to set up an ambush for my players, and the whole thing is heavily depends on the use of Mass Invisibility spell. We have an arcane caster with permanent see invisibility (worse yet: arcane sight), and a psichyc warrior with scent. So how could the enemies possibly avoid detection?
The scent thing is not as big problem because of the range\duration\likeness of usage.
Anyhow can nondetection foil see invisibility? (I think not, but please correct me for it will be the easiest method to do that.) Its needed anyway because of arcane sight. If not, what should I do?
Jaid
06-15-05, 12:08 PM how good is his spot check?

if it isn't very good, have them take 20 at hiding. with a few modifiers (circumstance for having camo gear, or similar, having someone skilled help them, etc), they should get the DC decent at least, and the PC won't spot them 'cause they're hiding. maybe a spell that grants improved skill at hiding as well ;)

and of course, anyone else with a good spot check won't work because they're invisible.
Skrymir
06-15-05, 01:02 PM You could (additionaly) somehow try to let the spellcaster with arcane sight close his eyes or bestow a temporary blindness on him. If you're sadistic you could also place an encounter some place before the ambush and let a spellcaster dispel his permanent arcane sight - but not the way I'd handle it ;)
tarkin
06-15-05, 01:08 PM The Sage has ruled that Nondetection offers some protection against See Invisible and Arcane Sight.

Of course, they still might make the Caster level check.
Iver Gearsham
06-15-05, 01:09 PM Prestidigitation can remove your sent for an hour in the SRD Null Magic Aura will keep the Armor, weapons and Items from glowing in Arcane Sight.

Fox holes with covered tops you pop up and attack from all you realy need after you hide all your attackers is one of them to use hide skill and give the signal for the attack.
Voidboy
06-15-05, 01:18 PM Thx a lot! I always forget to take 20. I still have to do something with the troll skellies. Maybe i bury them...
mbfu3k
06-15-05, 01:34 PM You can't take 20 with opposed checks. Since there is a consequence for failing (ie, you get spotted) and you can't retry, you can't take 20 on a Hide check. You could, however, take 10 if that would be sufficient to be hidden.

The only way I could see allowing the ambushers to take 20 is if one of them is very good at spotting and turned around / closed his eyes while everyone else hid, then he turned back and has everyone he can spot attempt to re-hide. That's kind of pushing it. And, depending on that person's Spot check, the ambushers either might not be able to hide from him even with a 20 (in which case they'd keep trying again and again forever), or he might not be able to spot them even when they roll poorly. Bah, all that to say that, regardless, you shouldn't allow taking 20 with Hide checks.
CaoSlayer
06-15-05, 02:14 PM use an illusion of a wall or bushes with the ambushers behind...

if the scent bothers you a lot of, then use a mayor image of a wall of organic wastes.
Rurik "The Silent"
06-15-05, 02:23 PM just remember they can't pin point with scent unless the person is within 5 ft. Im assuming there will also be some place to hide. If they hdie while invisible they get the hide bonus plus +20-40 for being invisible (as long as the person looking doesnt have the see invisibility. But you said they did). Any way if your attackers att ack from range and use sniping it is highly unlikely your players will see them. Remember spot has a -2 or something per 5-10ft i don't remember. But sniping from about 50ft shoudl even everything out and make a tough encounter espically if the attackers have magic on their side too.
Drachasor
06-15-05, 02:23 PM I agree that illusions are a good way to go, as it doesn't sound like they have anything that can see through them.

-Drachasor
Merestil Haye
06-15-05, 05:25 PM Can these enemies afford some equipment?Dust of Disappearance: This dust looks just like dust of appearance and is typically stored in the same manner. A creature or object touched by it becomes invisible (as greater invisibility). Normal vision can’t see dusted creatures or objects, nor can they be detected by magical means, including see invisibility or invisibility purge. Dust of appearance, however, does reveal people and objects made invisible by dust of disappearance. Other factors, such as sound and smell, also allow possible detection.

The greater invisibility bestowed by the dust lasts for 2d6 rounds.The invisible creature doesn’t know when the duration will end.

Moderate illusion; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, greater invisibility; Price 3,500 gp.That should not be too unbalancing owing to the vers short duration.
FatherNature
06-15-05, 06:27 PM 1. Prestidigitation to remove your scent?
why not Prestidigitation to make FAKE scents!

2. See invisibility only works if you can still see the person.
assuming you have access to a Mass invisibility spell, you should have access to Arcane Eye...have your ambushers use that to 'Take 20' on hide.

3. Scroll of Greater Dispel Magic and a disposible mage...all you need to cast is the minimal ability score and have it on your spellcaster list, no mimimal caster level. then bye-bye permancy monster. XD
Breetai
06-15-05, 08:30 PM Unfortunatly there is no way to nessecarally negate see invisibility without dispelling it outright or blindness (except for dust of disapperance I didn't know that one.) Then again the character did pay XP for it right?

Never the less an old fashioned ambush using Guerilla Tactics would work well. I'm assuming your talking about a large number of troops not a tactical team otherwise we'd be talking about invisibility sphere which is 3rd vs mass invisibility which is 7th right?

As others have stated you CAN NOT TAKE 20 on a hide check. But they don't need hide checks if the bulk of the forces have full cover (or the illusion of full cover for that matter). They just need a good spotter(ranger) with a real good hide check to keep an eye on the party and coordinate everything and keep the group downwind. Of course any good ranger would know to significantly reduce the scent ability with a few ripe old dead rotten animals or something. Then when they get within range for it... Charge!

Or

If you are talking about a tactical team i.e. party vs party the guerilla tractic above works well really for any level but if you have to use magic the hell with the invisibility use teleport. Or there's bound to be a few wizards other than thier major caster who can provide the smaller casters of a larger force (if that's what your using) with scrolls of teleport.
redkite
06-15-05, 09:31 PM Illusion wont work against the Arcane Sight - automatic chance to disbelieve from the character with a good Will save. It might be funny, because if the character played it right, the party could do a counter ambush (I thought they were seeing a wall, boss).
djinni
06-15-05, 10:13 PM if this encounter goes the way you plan then the characters will just upgrade from see invisibility to true seeing, then you are hosed since there isn't anything that negates true seeing...except for chains of disbelief and that only gives them a +10 on the wil save which is almost as bad.
true seeing is the bane of the school of illusion...
Drachasor
06-15-05, 10:23 PM You could always make a custom spell (not sure what level your enemies are) say 6th level or so that foils True Seeing and all lesser spells of that nature (including arcane sight). Invisibility to Divination, perhaps. I think it could reasonbly grant an area immunity to diviniations 5th level and below as a 7th level spell. Give it a duration of minutes. A 4th level version of the spell should probably fool 3rd level spells and below. Basically model it roughly after the Globe of Invulnerability, but grant it a larger area since it just blocks the effectiveness of one school.

If the PCs happen to slay the enemy wizard, of course, they'll find a copy of the spell to use themselves. I suppose if the enemy caster is a Sorcerer or Cleric then that won't happen.

-Drachasor
djinni
06-15-05, 10:26 PM If the PCs happen to slay the enemy wizard, of course, they'll find a copy of the spell to use themselves.
then the PC's are undetectable when they cast the spell, all combats will then go like this...
"surprise round the bug bear attacks you"
"I had <insert spell> made into an Item it can't detect me..."
"oh not again!"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Voidboy 06-15-05, 11:26 AM	I'm going to set up an ambush for my players, and the whole thing is heavily depends on the use of Mass Invisibility spell. We have an arcane caster with permanent see invisibility (worse yet: arcane sight), and a psichyc warrior with scent. So how could the enemies possibly avoid detection? The scent thing is not as big problem because of the range\duration\likeness of usage. Anyhow can nondetection foil see invisibility? (I think not, but please correct me for it will be the easiest method to do that.) Its needed anyway because of arcane sight. If not, what should I do?
Jaid 06-15-05, 12:08 PM	how good is his spot check? if it isn't very good, have them take 20 at hiding. with a few modifiers (circumstance for having camo gear, or similar, having someone skilled help them, etc), they should get the DC decent at least, and the PC won't spot them 'cause they're hiding. maybe a spell that grants improved skill at hiding as well ;) and of course, anyone else with a good spot check won't work because they're invisible.
Skrymir 06-15-05, 01:02 PM	You could (additionaly) somehow try to let the spellcaster with arcane sight close his eyes or bestow a temporary blindness on him. If you're sadistic you could also place an encounter some place before the ambush and let a spellcaster dispel his permanent arcane sight - but not the way I'd handle it ;)
tarkin 06-15-05, 01:08 PM	The Sage has ruled that Nondetection offers some protection against See Invisible and Arcane Sight. Of course, they still might make the Caster level check.
Iver Gearsham 06-15-05, 01:09 PM	Prestidigitation can remove your sent for an hour in the SRD Null Magic Aura will keep the Armor, weapons and Items from glowing in Arcane Sight. Fox holes with covered tops you pop up and attack from all you realy need after you hide all your attackers is one of them to use hide skill and give the signal for the attack.
Voidboy 06-15-05, 01:18 PM	Thx a lot! I always forget to take 20. I still have to do something with the troll skellies. Maybe i bury them...
mbfu3k 06-15-05, 01:34 PM	You can't take 20 with opposed checks. Since there is a consequence for failing (ie, you get spotted) and you can't retry, you can't take 20 on a Hide check. You could, however, take 10 if that would be sufficient to be hidden. The only way I could see allowing the ambushers to take 20 is if one of them is very good at spotting and turned around / closed his eyes while everyone else hid, then he turned back and has everyone he can spot attempt to re-hide. That's kind of pushing it. And, depending on that person's Spot check, the ambushers either might not be able to hide from him even with a 20 (in which case they'd keep trying again and again forever), or he might not be able to spot them even when they roll poorly. Bah, all that to say that, regardless, you shouldn't allow taking 20 with Hide checks.
CaoSlayer 06-15-05, 02:14 PM	use an illusion of a wall or bushes with the ambushers behind... if the scent bothers you a lot of, then use a mayor image of a wall of organic wastes.
Rurik "The Silent" 06-15-05, 02:23 PM	just remember they can't pin point with scent unless the person is within 5 ft. Im assuming there will also be some place to hide. If they hdie while invisible they get the hide bonus plus +20-40 for being invisible (as long as the person looking doesnt have the see invisibility. But you said they did). Any way if your attackers att ack from range and use sniping it is highly unlikely your players will see them. Remember spot has a -2 or something per 5-10ft i don't remember. But sniping from about 50ft shoudl even everything out and make a tough encounter espically if the attackers have magic on their side too.
Drachasor 06-15-05, 02:23 PM	I agree that illusions are a good way to go, as it doesn't sound like they have anything that can see through them. -Drachasor
Merestil Haye 06-15-05, 05:25 PM	Can these enemies afford some equipment?Dust of Disappearance: This dust looks just like dust of appearance and is typically stored in the same manner. A creature or object touched by it becomes invisible (as greater invisibility). Normal vision can’t see dusted creatures or objects, nor can they be detected by magical means, including see invisibility or invisibility purge. Dust of appearance, however, does reveal people and objects made invisible by dust of disappearance. Other factors, such as sound and smell, also allow possible detection. The greater invisibility bestowed by the dust lasts for 2d6 rounds.The invisible creature doesn’t know when the duration will end. Moderate illusion; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, greater invisibility; Price 3,500 gp.That should not be too unbalancing owing to the vers short duration.
FatherNature 06-15-05, 06:27 PM	1. Prestidigitation to remove your scent? why not Prestidigitation to make FAKE scents! 2. See invisibility only works if you can still see the person. assuming you have access to a Mass invisibility spell, you should have access to Arcane Eye...have your ambushers use that to 'Take 20' on hide. 3. Scroll of Greater Dispel Magic and a disposible mage...all you need to cast is the minimal ability score and have it on your spellcaster list, no mimimal caster level. then bye-bye permancy monster. XD
Breetai 06-15-05, 08:30 PM	Unfortunatly there is no way to nessecarally negate see invisibility without dispelling it outright or blindness (except for dust of disapperance I didn't know that one.) Then again the character did pay XP for it right? Never the less an old fashioned ambush using Guerilla Tactics would work well. I'm assuming your talking about a large number of troops not a tactical team otherwise we'd be talking about invisibility sphere which is 3rd vs mass invisibility which is 7th right? As others have stated you CAN NOT TAKE 20 on a hide check. But they don't need hide checks if the bulk of the forces have full cover (or the illusion of full cover for that matter). They just need a good spotter(ranger) with a real good hide check to keep an eye on the party and coordinate everything and keep the group downwind. Of course any good ranger would know to significantly reduce the scent ability with a few ripe old dead rotten animals or something. Then when they get within range for it... Charge! Or If you are talking about a tactical team i.e. party vs party the guerilla tractic above works well really for any level but if you have to use magic the hell with the invisibility use teleport. Or there's bound to be a few wizards other than thier major caster who can provide the smaller casters of a larger force (if that's what your using) with scrolls of teleport.
redkite 06-15-05, 09:31 PM	Illusion wont work against the Arcane Sight - automatic chance to disbelieve from the character with a good Will save. It might be funny, because if the character played it right, the party could do a counter ambush (I thought they were seeing a wall, boss).
djinni 06-15-05, 10:13 PM	if this encounter goes the way you plan then the characters will just upgrade from see invisibility to true seeing, then you are hosed since there isn't anything that negates true seeing...except for chains of disbelief and that only gives them a +10 on the wil save which is almost as bad. true seeing is the bane of the school of illusion...
Drachasor 06-15-05, 10:23 PM	You could always make a custom spell (not sure what level your enemies are) say 6th level or so that foils True Seeing and all lesser spells of that nature (including arcane sight). Invisibility to Divination, perhaps. I think it could reasonbly grant an area immunity to diviniations 5th level and below as a 7th level spell. Give it a duration of minutes. A 4th level version of the spell should probably fool 3rd level spells and below. Basically model it roughly after the Globe of Invulnerability, but grant it a larger area since it just blocks the effectiveness of one school. If the PCs happen to slay the enemy wizard, of course, they'll find a copy of the spell to use themselves. I suppose if the enemy caster is a Sorcerer or Cleric then that won't happen. -Drachasor
djinni 06-15-05, 10:26 PM	If the PCs happen to slay the enemy wizard, of course, they'll find a copy of the spell to use themselves. then the PC's are undetectable when they cast the spell, all combats will then go like this... "surprise round the bug bear attacks you" "I had <insert spell> made into an Item it can't detect me..." "oh not again!"