Better Guidelines [Archive] - Wizards Community

Better Guidelines [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Archangel_Arcanis
02-08-06, 12:58 PM Anyone have anybetter guidelines other than the insanely vague ones presented in DMG for creating new spells. I know the final thing is does this spell make sence and is the level apporopriate but i'd like some where to start with rather than make up an effect and then decide what lvl is right for it. I was thinking a point based system where spells should average out to so many points per spell level. or a seed based system to build the spell similar to epic but not as broken.

thanks
Seeker95
02-08-06, 03:40 PM I haven't found a need for "better guidelines" in 28 years of playing.
The guidelines in the 3e books are even more developed than I ever found necessary.
I see no need to find a replacement.
tarkin
02-08-06, 05:26 PM I've tried to make a seed based system before, but it is difficult. Partly because sometimes WoTC makes some overpowered spells, and often makes some weak ones (Magic Missile sometimes looks a lot like a 2nd level spell)

Basic ideas would be:

Damage dice should NOT be played with for Save for 1/2 spells. Those caps work well. The major idea is to prevent metamagic feats from creating abusive spells, particularly at higher levels. You got some wiggle room if it is save negates or save for partial, or if it has attacks required, particularly multiple attacks or attack + save.

No save at all is +2 levels (and may be Epic)
No save, but a To hit (miss = partial) is +1 level
No save but a To hit (or nothing) is +.5 levels
Save for 1/2 is normal.
Save for partial is -.5 levels
Save negates is -1 level
To hit negates and a Save for partial or 1/2 is -1.5
To hit negates and a save negates is -2 levels.

Acid/Fire/cold/electrical damage is standard. Sonic is worth a +0.5 upgrade. Force is worth a +1 upgrade. No Spell Resitance is worth a +1 upgrade.

Each range step is usually worth +.5 levels (Personal:0 ->Touch.5->Close1->Medium 1.5->Long2)

20ft radius is standard, any more more is +.5 level, greater than 30 ft radius is +1 level

Durations should usually be set up to make it barely effective. Each upgrade in duration is worth +1 level. A downgrade so the spell is seriously impaired (without changing casting time) is worth -.5

Components, VS is standard. Losing S is -.5. Losing V is -1.
+M and minor XP is +.5, unless it is expensive, than +1. "expensive" depends on level - 100 gp is expensive at 1st, cheap at 9th.

F is worth +.5 only if expensive, not worth anything if cheap.

Casting Time: action is standard. Full Round Casting is -.5
Swift Action, with an effectively instant only duration is +.25 Swift action with a

A Type restriction is worth -2 levels. (Charm Person or Hold Undead)
A mind affecting only, or language depenedednt is worth -0.5 levels

Max Hit Die affected restrictions that are harsh are -1 levels.

One creature affected is -1 level. The ability to do a small number of creatures (that you can not select) in an area is normal. All in an Area effect is +0.5 The ability to only select the targets you want is worth +1.5 level.
Grug the Just
02-09-06, 01:23 AM Post it here. That's usually my first step. It really is the best way to see how balanced it may be.
Archangel_Arcanis
02-09-06, 09:39 AM I am planning on posting anyspells i make here but i havea character who is going to be making a bunch of spell as our game progresses and just wnated to have some sort of systematic way to determine if the spell would be made too powerful or too weak before i put it here, we all know that we can be blinded by the power of a spell the dm doesn't see as that abusable.
Nom
02-09-06, 10:23 PM The problem is that the best reason for making a new spell is that there isn't an existing spell that does what you are trying to do. Because of how the D&D spell system works, DMs should discourage PCs from creating spells that are only minor variations on existing spells (we don't need a variant of fireball at every level from 1 to 9 whose only differences are area of effect and damage cap). New spells should be "new and interesting". Of course, this makes it difficult to simply formularise their pricing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Archangel_Arcanis 02-08-06, 12:58 PM	Anyone have anybetter guidelines other than the insanely vague ones presented in DMG for creating new spells. I know the final thing is does this spell make sence and is the level apporopriate but i'd like some where to start with rather than make up an effect and then decide what lvl is right for it. I was thinking a point based system where spells should average out to so many points per spell level. or a seed based system to build the spell similar to epic but not as broken. thanks
Seeker95 02-08-06, 03:40 PM	I haven't found a need for "better guidelines" in 28 years of playing. The guidelines in the 3e books are even more developed than I ever found necessary. I see no need to find a replacement.
tarkin 02-08-06, 05:26 PM	I've tried to make a seed based system before, but it is difficult. Partly because sometimes WoTC makes some overpowered spells, and often makes some weak ones (Magic Missile sometimes looks a lot like a 2nd level spell) Basic ideas would be: Damage dice should NOT be played with for Save for 1/2 spells. Those caps work well. The major idea is to prevent metamagic feats from creating abusive spells, particularly at higher levels. You got some wiggle room if it is save negates or save for partial, or if it has attacks required, particularly multiple attacks or attack + save. No save at all is +2 levels (and may be Epic) No save, but a To hit (miss = partial) is +1 level No save but a To hit (or nothing) is +.5 levels Save for 1/2 is normal. Save for partial is -.5 levels Save negates is -1 level To hit negates and a Save for partial or 1/2 is -1.5 To hit negates and a save negates is -2 levels. Acid/Fire/cold/electrical damage is standard. Sonic is worth a +0.5 upgrade. Force is worth a +1 upgrade. No Spell Resitance is worth a +1 upgrade. Each range step is usually worth +.5 levels (Personal:0 ->Touch.5->Close1->Medium 1.5->Long2) 20ft radius is standard, any more more is +.5 level, greater than 30 ft radius is +1 level Durations should usually be set up to make it barely effective. Each upgrade in duration is worth +1 level. A downgrade so the spell is seriously impaired (without changing casting time) is worth -.5 Components, VS is standard. Losing S is -.5. Losing V is -1. +M and minor XP is +.5, unless it is expensive, than +1. "expensive" depends on level - 100 gp is expensive at 1st, cheap at 9th. F is worth +.5 only if expensive, not worth anything if cheap. Casting Time: action is standard. Full Round Casting is -.5 Swift Action, with an effectively instant only duration is +.25 Swift action with a A Type restriction is worth -2 levels. (Charm Person or Hold Undead) A mind affecting only, or language depenedednt is worth -0.5 levels Max Hit Die affected restrictions that are harsh are -1 levels. One creature affected is -1 level. The ability to do a small number of creatures (that you can not select) in an area is normal. All in an Area effect is +0.5 The ability to only select the targets you want is worth +1.5 level.
Grug the Just 02-09-06, 01:23 AM	Post it here. That's usually my first step. It really is the best way to see how balanced it may be.
Archangel_Arcanis 02-09-06, 09:39 AM	I am planning on posting anyspells i make here but i havea character who is going to be making a bunch of spell as our game progresses and just wnated to have some sort of systematic way to determine if the spell would be made too powerful or too weak before i put it here, we all know that we can be blinded by the power of a spell the dm doesn't see as that abusable.
Nom 02-09-06, 10:23 PM	The problem is that the best reason for making a new spell is that there isn't an existing spell that does what you are trying to do. Because of how the D&D spell system works, DMs should discourage PCs from creating spells that are only minor variations on existing spells (we don't need a variant of fireball at every level from 1 to 9 whose only differences are area of effect and damage cap). New spells should be "new and interesting". Of course, this makes it difficult to simply formularise their pricing.