Bigbies _____ Hand [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bigbies _____ Hand [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Goof
12-10-07, 11:37 AM I dunno, when I look at all the bigbies hand spells, they look resonably good, but then looking at the level I always end up skipping over these.

Do these get used much? I just feel like they are underpowered in their level, like they should be at least 1 lvl lower and or include some other utilitiness about them.
kuonji
12-10-07, 11:47 AM My sorcerer used grasping hand all the time. I had a +29 to hit (CL14, +6 from cha) and +33 on grapple checks. The nice thing is the bonuses go up as you level and gain a higher casting stat. Great for taking low strength creatures out of a fight or helping with battlefield control.
solbergb
12-10-07, 05:17 PM Grasping hand is quite popular, as it gets the massive grapple check at the minimum level and a very good bull rush to push enemies through prismatic walls, blade barriers and such.

The others from the PHB....not so much. Interposing doesn't do enough, forceful....too weak for a L6 slot. Clenched fist.....just take power word stun and be done with it. Crushing hand....doesn't do enough to rate using a L9 slot vs the L7 grasping version.

But grasping hand, yeah, that one gets use.
Seeker95
12-10-07, 06:01 PM The Bigby spells are great for battlefield control, but they need more battlefield time to make them worth more than a straight up offense. If 4th edition has as much larger-scale combat as the advance hints indicate, these spells will become much better. Especially with the party role element.

I look forward to it with glee to the max. (But not Gleemax, a term I am still not fond of.)
Beckettvampire
12-16-07, 03:02 AM In an epic game, we where fighting a collossal black half red dragon that was completely screwing us (i.e. the dm was doing their job). The dragon was invisible under water in a swamp and using an illusion to make us believe that it was hiding in front of us. It couldn't see us, but could pin point us. Now, the dragon was less than our C.R., so we shouldn't have had to much problem, but it killed everyone but me and the halfling rogue/wizards/ranger the dim doored than teleported away before dying from a couple thousand feet fall.
I was the only one left with two rounds to go as it charged down at me from the air. I readied an action to cast a wall of stone shapped like a barricade, and waited for it to get within range and set it directly infront of it.
The dragon slammed into it, taking no damage becasue it had previously cast I think Adamantine body, but it fell to the ground and crumbled the wall of stone ontop of it. As it was getting up, Earthquack, burried it in the now very muddy swamp, and it kept on trying to get up.
Bigby's Crushing Hand, or in this case Kiri-jolith's Crushing Hand, saved my Clerics life as I pinned it and lanced it to death from a safe range and my 20ish H.P. since the beginning of the fight and a lot of wasted party heals.
solbergb
12-17-07, 03:36 AM I hate to nitpick such a good story, but wall of stone needs stone to attach to, it can't be created in air (or usually in a swamp) . The story reads right though with wall of force :)

The reaon crushing hand isn't popular is grasping hand does the "good part" (holds that dragon so you can lance it) and uses a lower level slot.

Things are different if you get it as a domain slot obviously, for the same reason that although acid fog isn't really any better than solid fog, Warmages like the spell (they don't get solid fog as an option)
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0
12-17-07, 03:40 AM In an epic game, we where fighting a collossal black half red dragon that was completely screwing us (i.e. the dm was doing their job). The dragon was invisible under water in a swamp and using an illusion to make us believe that it was hiding in front of us. It couldn't see us, but could pin point us. Now, the dragon was less than our C.R., so we shouldn't have had to much problem, but it killed everyone but me and the halfling rogue/wizards/ranger the dim doored than teleported away before dying from a couple thousand feet fall.
I was the only one left with two rounds to go as it charged down at me from the air. I readied an action to cast a wall of stone shapped like a barricade, and waited for it to get within range and set it directly infront of it.
The dragon slammed into it, taking no damage becasue it had previously cast I think Adamantine body, but it fell to the ground and crumbled the wall of stone ontop of it. As it was getting up, Earthquack, burried it in the now very muddy swamp, and it kept on trying to get up.
Bigby's Crushing Hand, or in this case Kiri-jolith's Crushing Hand, saved my Clerics life as I pinned it and lanced it to death from a safe range and my 20ish H.P. since the beginning of the fight and a lot of wasted party heals.

*sigh* If only you had shivering touch.
Beckettvampire
12-17-07, 09:18 AM Would have likely died before getting close enough. AO for moving into through it's reach squares, AO for casting and wasn't sure I could make the check, or rather let me say that I was so out of spells that if I didn't I would stand no chance, and it could still make normal attacks except tail, crush, and wings.
AlphaJaeger
12-17-07, 04:59 PM Bigby's Slapping Hand is my personal favourite. Actually, since I'm on the subject, can the caster of this spell take advantage of its effect?
Goof
12-17-07, 06:20 PM It isn’t think I don’t think it is useful, just that feel like they are 1-2 spell levels higher than they should be, or underpowered compared to other spells the same level.

For instance a level 8 sorcerer cast a lvl 4 spell: Resilient Sphere for DC 19 reflex (14 + 4 ability mod +1 spell focus). And they are not getting out unless they have dispell or something.

In contrast it takes a lvl 14 sorcerer to cast Grasping hand. Where they need to beat a grapple check of 21 (10 + 4 (ability mod) + 7(Caster lvl/2)). Also the victim will be able to get out each round using an apposed grapple or escape artist check. Or they can attack the hand.

Compare it to another spell the same level, Summon monster 7: Earth Elemental, Huge with a grapple of 29 (31 with aug summoning), more HP, and can do damage.

No to mention other single target disabling spells the same level: Finger of Death, Forcecage, Insanity.

If you want something to do a grapple check there is black tentacles
CL +8 so at level 14 the DC is 22, get multiple opponents, plus 1d6+4 damage.

The only things I see is the utilitieness (like use the lesser version of the spell, grapple something underwater so the drown, etc), and can change an opponent.

Am I missing something?
solbergb
12-17-07, 07:08 PM Ottiluke's sphere is defeated by a reflex save or SR, whereas the grasping hand uses a grapple mechanic.

Grapple at the level it is (mid 30s) is FAR more reliable than anything that uses a save mechanic and it is SR=no.

Seriously, even with the medeocre grapple checks of Evards...my sorceress had both spells, and the sphere never worked (even when I aimed it at aberrations or clerics, who theoretcially have low saves) wereas Evards often worked.

The grasping hand can also move enemies with bull rush at fairly irresistable power, shoving them into nasty effects or battlefield control spells or away from the squishie they want to full attack etc.
solbergb
12-17-07, 07:16 PM In contrast it takes a lvl 14 sorcerer to cast Grasping hand. Where they need to beat a grapple check of 21 (10 + 4 (ability mod) + 7(Caster lvl/2)). Also the victim will be able to get out each round using an apposed grapple or escape artist check. Or they can attack the hand.

Compare it to another spell the same level, Summon monster 7: Earth Elemental, Huge with a grapple of 29 (31 with aug summoning), more HP, and can do damage.

Am I missing something?

Yes. Firstly, the grapple check is higher than you indicate.

It is caster level (14) plus strength (10) plus size (4) large plus cha mod, which will be at least 26 by then, to get the bonus spells (8)

Which adds up to +34.

It has a higher grapple check than the earth elemental, works on flying targets, isn't defeated by an AOO like earth elemental (which lacks imp grab or imp grapple) and arrives this round without leaving you vulnerable for a full round casting.

Compared to forcecage, I'd say that not having to cough up 1500gp is a pretty big advantage, plus it actually works on creatures too big for the cage and might grapple them anyway (although it is saving-risky)

Most things the hand grabs will be unable to escape except via the same means they get out of a forcecage - dim door, teleport etc. The difference is you can just direct the hand to grab them again, unlike a forcecage that's done if they get outside.

Finger of death has many creatures simply immune, and most of the rest will normally make the fortitude save. There is a very large category of enemies that will shrug off the finger of death but be easily grappled.

Insanity has many creatures simply immune, and most of the rest will make the will save, and even if they fail the monster is still dangerous, as it is merely conused.

It is a different spell with different mechanics that has two uses (immobilizing or pushing people around). It is actually good enough at those mechanics that it will be a more reliable choice than save dependent spells and it's reusable without burning another spell slot if your BDF clobbers the poor grappled guy and you have more targets.
Goof
12-18-07, 11:05 AM Ah ok, I see the 32, I don't know where I got the formula that I thought was grasping hand. I referenced the online srd, but must have been reading wrong spell . . .

I have to say, I may have to open up a slot fot this spell afterall ;)

Thanks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Goof 12-10-07, 11:37 AM	I dunno, when I look at all the bigbies hand spells, they look resonably good, but then looking at the level I always end up skipping over these. Do these get used much? I just feel like they are underpowered in their level, like they should be at least 1 lvl lower and or include some other utilitiness about them.
kuonji 12-10-07, 11:47 AM	My sorcerer used grasping hand all the time. I had a +29 to hit (CL14, +6 from cha) and +33 on grapple checks. The nice thing is the bonuses go up as you level and gain a higher casting stat. Great for taking low strength creatures out of a fight or helping with battlefield control.
solbergb 12-10-07, 05:17 PM	Grasping hand is quite popular, as it gets the massive grapple check at the minimum level and a very good bull rush to push enemies through prismatic walls, blade barriers and such. The others from the PHB....not so much. Interposing doesn't do enough, forceful....too weak for a L6 slot. Clenched fist.....just take power word stun and be done with it. Crushing hand....doesn't do enough to rate using a L9 slot vs the L7 grasping version. But grasping hand, yeah, that one gets use.
Seeker95 12-10-07, 06:01 PM	The Bigby spells are great for battlefield control, but they need more battlefield time to make them worth more than a straight up offense. If 4th edition has as much larger-scale combat as the advance hints indicate, these spells will become much better. Especially with the party role element. I look forward to it with glee to the max. (But not Gleemax, a term I am still not fond of.)
Beckettvampire 12-16-07, 03:02 AM	In an epic game, we where fighting a collossal black half red dragon that was completely screwing us (i.e. the dm was doing their job). The dragon was invisible under water in a swamp and using an illusion to make us believe that it was hiding in front of us. It couldn't see us, but could pin point us. Now, the dragon was less than our C.R., so we shouldn't have had to much problem, but it killed everyone but me and the halfling rogue/wizards/ranger the dim doored than teleported away before dying from a couple thousand feet fall. I was the only one left with two rounds to go as it charged down at me from the air. I readied an action to cast a wall of stone shapped like a barricade, and waited for it to get within range and set it directly infront of it. The dragon slammed into it, taking no damage becasue it had previously cast I think Adamantine body, but it fell to the ground and crumbled the wall of stone ontop of it. As it was getting up, Earthquack, burried it in the now very muddy swamp, and it kept on trying to get up. Bigby's Crushing Hand, or in this case Kiri-jolith's Crushing Hand, saved my Clerics life as I pinned it and lanced it to death from a safe range and my 20ish H.P. since the beginning of the fight and a lot of wasted party heals.
solbergb 12-17-07, 03:36 AM	I hate to nitpick such a good story, but wall of stone needs stone to attach to, it can't be created in air (or usually in a swamp) . The story reads right though with wall of force :) The reaon crushing hand isn't popular is grasping hand does the "good part" (holds that dragon so you can lance it) and uses a lower level slot. Things are different if you get it as a domain slot obviously, for the same reason that although acid fog isn't really any better than solid fog, Warmages like the spell (they don't get solid fog as an option)
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0 12-17-07, 03:40 AM	In an epic game, we where fighting a collossal black half red dragon that was completely screwing us (i.e. the dm was doing their job). The dragon was invisible under water in a swamp and using an illusion to make us believe that it was hiding in front of us. It couldn't see us, but could pin point us. Now, the dragon was less than our C.R., so we shouldn't have had to much problem, but it killed everyone but me and the halfling rogue/wizards/ranger the dim doored than teleported away before dying from a couple thousand feet fall. I was the only one left with two rounds to go as it charged down at me from the air. I readied an action to cast a wall of stone shapped like a barricade, and waited for it to get within range and set it directly infront of it. The dragon slammed into it, taking no damage becasue it had previously cast I think Adamantine body, but it fell to the ground and crumbled the wall of stone ontop of it. As it was getting up, Earthquack, burried it in the now very muddy swamp, and it kept on trying to get up. Bigby's Crushing Hand, or in this case Kiri-jolith's Crushing Hand, saved my Clerics life as I pinned it and lanced it to death from a safe range and my 20ish H.P. since the beginning of the fight and a lot of wasted party heals. sigh If only you had shivering touch.
Beckettvampire 12-17-07, 09:18 AM	Would have likely died before getting close enough. AO for moving into through it's reach squares, AO for casting and wasn't sure I could make the check, or rather let me say that I was so out of spells that if I didn't I would stand no chance, and it could still make normal attacks except tail, crush, and wings.
AlphaJaeger 12-17-07, 04:59 PM	Bigby's Slapping Hand is my personal favourite. Actually, since I'm on the subject, can the caster of this spell take advantage of its effect?
Goof 12-17-07, 06:20 PM	It isn’t think I don’t think it is useful, just that feel like they are 1-2 spell levels higher than they should be, or underpowered compared to other spells the same level. For instance a level 8 sorcerer cast a lvl 4 spell: Resilient Sphere for DC 19 reflex (14 + 4 ability mod +1 spell focus). And they are not getting out unless they have dispell or something. In contrast it takes a lvl 14 sorcerer to cast Grasping hand. Where they need to beat a grapple check of 21 (10 + 4 (ability mod) + 7(Caster lvl/2)). Also the victim will be able to get out each round using an apposed grapple or escape artist check. Or they can attack the hand. Compare it to another spell the same level, Summon monster 7: Earth Elemental, Huge with a grapple of 29 (31 with aug summoning), more HP, and can do damage. No to mention other single target disabling spells the same level: Finger of Death, Forcecage, Insanity. If you want something to do a grapple check there is black tentacles CL +8 so at level 14 the DC is 22, get multiple opponents, plus 1d6+4 damage. The only things I see is the utilitieness (like use the lesser version of the spell, grapple something underwater so the drown, etc), and can change an opponent. Am I missing something?
solbergb 12-17-07, 07:08 PM	Ottiluke's sphere is defeated by a reflex save or SR, whereas the grasping hand uses a grapple mechanic. Grapple at the level it is (mid 30s) is FAR more reliable than anything that uses a save mechanic and it is SR=no. Seriously, even with the medeocre grapple checks of Evards...my sorceress had both spells, and the sphere never worked (even when I aimed it at aberrations or clerics, who theoretcially have low saves) wereas Evards often worked. The grasping hand can also move enemies with bull rush at fairly irresistable power, shoving them into nasty effects or battlefield control spells or away from the squishie they want to full attack etc.
solbergb 12-17-07, 07:16 PM	In contrast it takes a lvl 14 sorcerer to cast Grasping hand. Where they need to beat a grapple check of 21 (10 + 4 (ability mod) + 7(Caster lvl/2)). Also the victim will be able to get out each round using an apposed grapple or escape artist check. Or they can attack the hand. Compare it to another spell the same level, Summon monster 7: Earth Elemental, Huge with a grapple of 29 (31 with aug summoning), more HP, and can do damage. Am I missing something? Yes. Firstly, the grapple check is higher than you indicate. It is caster level (14) plus strength (10) plus size (4) large plus cha mod, which will be at least 26 by then, to get the bonus spells (8) Which adds up to +34. It has a higher grapple check than the earth elemental, works on flying targets, isn't defeated by an AOO like earth elemental (which lacks imp grab or imp grapple) and arrives this round without leaving you vulnerable for a full round casting. Compared to forcecage, I'd say that not having to cough up 1500gp is a pretty big advantage, plus it actually works on creatures too big for the cage and might grapple them anyway (although it is saving-risky) Most things the hand grabs will be unable to escape except via the same means they get out of a forcecage - dim door, teleport etc. The difference is you can just direct the hand to grab them again, unlike a forcecage that's done if they get outside. Finger of death has many creatures simply immune, and most of the rest will normally make the fortitude save. There is a very large category of enemies that will shrug off the finger of death but be easily grappled. Insanity has many creatures simply immune, and most of the rest will make the will save, and even if they fail the monster is still dangerous, as it is merely conused. It is a different spell with different mechanics that has two uses (immobilizing or pushing people around). It is actually good enough at those mechanics that it will be a more reliable choice than save dependent spells and it's reusable without burning another spell slot if your BDF clobbers the poor grappled guy and you have more targets.
Goof 12-18-07, 11:05 AM	Ah ok, I see the 32, I don't know where I got the formula that I thought was grasping hand. I referenced the online srd, but must have been reading wrong spell . . . I have to say, I may have to open up a slot fot this spell afterall ;) Thanks.