Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lixith 05-27-07, 05:31 AM	I'm looking for a few spells that are good against Incorporial Creatures. Bigby's Forcefull Hand looks nice, since it's force and they don't get their miss chance. BFH is the one that bull rushes oponents away from you. So how do you resolve a bull rush against an incorporial creature? Bull rushes require the oponent to make a strength check.. and incorporial creatures don't have a strength score. ??? And also, would they get a bonus or minus for their size like corporial creatures????? The answer is probably somewhere easy to find... but i'm not having much luck... Also.... anybody know any good attack spells to use against them. I know magic missle is good....but anything higher level??? Mainly something that does HP damage that does not allow them their miss chance. (like a force effect) Thanks
WinDReiN 05-27-07, 07:48 AM	Nonabilities Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0 -- they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0. Other effects of nonabilities are detailed below. Strength: Any creature that can physically manipulate other objects has at least 1 point of Strength. A creature with no Strength score can't exert force, usually because it has no physical body (a spectre, for example) or because it doesn't move (a shrieker). The creature automatically fails Strength checks. If the creature can attack, it applies its Dexterity modifier to its base attack bonus instead of a Strength modifier. Dexterity: Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score can't move (a shrieker, for example). If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature automatically fails Reflex saves and Dexterity checks. Constitution: Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body (a spectre, for example) or no metabolism (a golem). It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. For example, a zombie is unaffected by any type of poison but is susceptible to a disintegrate spell. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature's description says it cannot run). Intelligence: Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks. Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses. Wisdom: Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score. Charisma: Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score. Source: MM Also.... anybody know any good attack spells to use against them. Ghost Trap spell from SC, p103.
Father Dale 05-27-07, 01:22 PM	Yeah the Bigby's line is good against incorporeal creatures, particularly Crushing Hand. The only drawback is it can only attack a single creature at a time. There are several force spells in the Spell Compendium that will work good on incorporeal creatures. One of the best spells of all to use on incorporeal creatures that are undead is the Mass Cure spells. Since these are positive energy they have no miss chance, just like force effects. These are especially effective when empowered--even mass cure light when empowered can destroy a horde of incorporeal creatures. And Mass Heal just erases them out of existence. Although since you sound like your playing an arcane caster those probably aren't any good for you.
Lixith 05-27-07, 02:47 PM	I just saw an item in the MIC... for 6k gold. Gauntles in one of the sets..wraiths woe i believe. Ignores miss chance for incorporial creatures... with attacks and spells..... Seems overpowered for 6k... but o well
Father Dale 05-27-07, 03:37 PM	Oh I'd think too about was posted above on "non abilities." While this is true when an incorporeal creature is dealing with a corporeal creature, it is not when dealing with another incorporeal creature. There is good information in the Libris Mortis at page 143 about how to deal with this. In essence, use the incorporeal creatures Charisma score for its Strength when interacting with other incorporeal creatures. Also, if an incorporeal creature becomes corporeal (such as from the ghost trap spell), it gains a Strength score equal to its Charisma score (not including non permanent effects such as Eagle's Splendor or a Cloak of Charisma). I would think that if using the Bigby's spells against an incorporeal creature that has no Strength score, you should use its Charisma score to determine the result of a bull rush or grapple attempt, since the Bigby's spells will affect the creature as if they both were incorporeal or both were corporeal.
CantripN 05-27-07, 04:07 PM	Force Effects project into the Ethereal plane, so they treat the ghost as fully corporeal. On that note, the ruling is using their CHA as their STR, I believe, since it's attacking them from their own plane... Personally, when I've had the pleasure of casting Telekinesis on wraiths, we used it's DEX score to resist...
NobodyRemembersThis 05-27-07, 11:42 PM	Force Effects project into the Ethereal plane, so they treat the ghost as fully corporeal. On that note, the ruling is using their CHA as their STR, I believe, since it's attacking them from their own plane... Personally, when I've had the pleasure of casting Telekinesis on wraiths, we used it's DEX score to resist...Is this in the SRD CantripN? Otherwise, if you are going by CORE only, then you would bull rush the incorporeal undead a number of feet equal to your roll. Fun stuff.
CantripN 05-28-07, 10:35 AM	Is this in the SRD CantripN? Otherwise, if you are going by CORE only, then you would bull rush the incorporeal undead a number of feet equal to your roll. Fun stuff. No idea. We used Dex to be fair, as me Pinning a Wraith in 2 rounds is spooky. So it took me 3 rounds.