Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Archangel 01-10-04, 08:39 PM	I must ask if higher level Bigby's Hand spells are broken? Bigby's Crushing Hand and Bigby's Grasping Hand are ultimate wizard spells! They have a bigger grapple bonus than any other class and only most min/maxed fighters,barbarians or monks have any chance of freeing themselves. When high-level wizard meets anybody, that enemy grapples with the hand while the wizard laughs and casts magic missiles and reads newspapers! It is the only spell that he needs to defeat his opponents. Other wizards or clerics can maybe dimension door or teleport out only to be caught again by it if the wizard has prepared more then one those spells (I would)! Others are doomed. Are there any revisions of those spells?
Seeker95 01-10-04, 09:16 PM	The Bigby spells are not broken. They are very efficient at what they do, but what they do is not all that spectacular.
tarkin 01-11-04, 01:26 AM	Sorry, but you sound as if you do not have much high level experience. They are in fact relatively low power for 7th/9th level spells. Any Sorceror worth his title has taken Still Spell, Silent Spell and Eschewe Material. Grapple him? Who cares?? He can cast while you have Paralyzed/held him, merely grappling does nothing. Simiarly, a Sorceror should ALWAYS have more movement spells than anyone has 7th/9th level spells. Anything with similar abilities can also get away. Not to mention SR, the fighters, barbarians, monks you mentioned earlier, and numerous other abilities. Thieves may have maxed out Escape Artist, other casts may have Free Action, and so will any Cleric of Travel. Then there is Spell Turning. At that level a good wizard could have Non-detection and Greater Invisibility up all the time - you might not be able to see them before they have drained you a ton of levels. Things that are insurmountable at low levels have often become easily surmounted at high levels, especially grapple, trip. You want killer 9th level spells? Use either Astral Projection (and adventure on a plane besides the one you leave your body on). You can only be killed if you try to fight on the Astral Plane. Otheriwse you return to your body. Or Shapechange into one of the really cool creatures (such as the Choker that gives you two spells per round).
Wizard 01-11-04, 01:34 AM	A nifty spell for "spell combat" is telekineses. I liken it to a "little Tenser's." Fantastic when combined with a rogue friend----grapple them with the spell, the rogue won't hit the wrong opponent, good stuff all around. And it uses your CL instead of your BAB, and your Int instead of your Str!
Xavim 01-11-04, 06:47 AM	No they aren't broken. They're just good spells. Fireball deals more damage in a round than a min/maxed fighter but it isn't broken. Broken is when something is so blatently unbeatable that it ruins the game and cannot be stopped. 3.0 Harm is the only spell IMO that fits this category. Everything else was fine.
halzmar of geoff 01-11-04, 09:55 AM	Actually I've found in 3.5 Bigby's interposing hand is broken. It is a 5th level spell which provides a +4 bonus AC. The 1st level spell Shield and Mage Armor provides a +4 bonuses to AC. Rather underpowered for a 5th level spell.
tarkin 01-11-04, 10:11 AM	When a spell is too week it is called nerfed or useless, not broken. Broken is supposed to mean overly powerfull. The hand has more uses than just the cover. Specifically it is about ten by ten, so it is very effective for slowing pursuit down a 10ft wide corridor. I do agree that for a 5th level spell it should be doing more. I would have made it prevent them from following you at all until they destroy it.
halzmar of geoff 01-11-04, 10:47 AM	Point well taken about the jargon. However, since wizbro seems to only fix what is broken, and ignores complaints about nerfed spells as whining I'd perfer to refer to spells that are so wrong as to be unplayable as broken. It's all somantics. Broken we can all understand as a problem that needs fixed. Nerfed is a neutered, and impersonal term that really does not impart the need for repair. I.E. "If it's not broken don't fix it" :) Back to the discussion on Bigby's spells though a Wall of Force, or Wall of stone, both 5th level spells, would more effectively stop pursuit down a hall while the party escapes, takes the time to cast their buffs, heals, or what have you. Especially given that an attacker cannot hack through either barrier the way that they can with BIH.
logan007 01-11-04, 07:19 PM	Halzmar of geoff, the Taltos quote actually goes:No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style. it's the heading of chapter 17 of "Jhereg" ...Yeah, I'm a big Brust dork :P logan007
halzmar of geoff 01-11-04, 10:18 PM	Was quoting from memory as I haven't been able to snag a personal copy of the book yet :( But the seriously part sounds right :) Thanks
dantedarkstar 01-12-04, 06:30 AM	Bigby's Hands aren't "broken". Shapechange is far more powerful than Crushing Hand. But I agree, there is one ugly point in them - they add both your Int mod AND thier own Str mod to grapple rolls. Stacking 2 bonuses is what may make them unbalancing, especially with very high Int bonus.
Archangel 01-13-04, 06:28 PM	OK, broken was maybe a too harsh a word, but unbalancing it sure is. A player in my campain is lvl 19 wiz that has a grapple bonus of + 46 with the Hand and I don't know any lvl 19 fighter or a cleric (without a Travel domain) or a Rogue that can beat that! And I didn't mean all Hand spells are broken, just the 7th and 9th level versions! Ok there are some classes or characters that can go around the grapple problem but the most can't. Sorcerer is only one class and Cleric with a Travel Domain is at most 1 in 10 clerics. Shapechange is a good spell but it is not a game over when it is cast. Choker shapechange is not a good idea since you lose all items and have hands that cannot cast spells! Also Spell Turning doesn't work against Hand spells!
(Psi)SeveredHead 01-13-04, 08:21 PM	Those hands have crazy bonuses, being able to grapple dragons and stuff. On the other hand I've used NPCs with a grapple bonus of +52 without using Improved Grapple or any non-core stuff, either. (Were dire (polar) bear frost giant, with a class level or two...) The polar was just for coolness factor ... no stat mods for that. The DM should just use multiple opponents, after all. PS how the heck does the wizard get a +42 grapple bonus on his spell? What's his Int score? Is he using a core race?
The Hanged Man 01-13-04, 08:27 PM	It's really not that hard to get out of Bigby's. Lvl 19 cleric. Grapple Check +42. Miracle (Polymorph into Stone Giant) (27 str, size large) Divine Power (+6 str, BAB=Ftr 19) Righteous Might (+8 str, size Huge) Str = 41 (+15 str bonus) BAB=19 Size = huge (+8 grapple check) Rogue 19. Escape Artist +36 (weak, but you got a chance) Dex 28 (+9 dex bonus) Escape Artist Ranks 22 Skill Focus - Escape Artist +3 Agile +2
cwslyclgh 01-13-04, 08:32 PM	PS how the heck does the wizard get a +42 grapple bonus on his spell? What's his Int score? Is he using a core race? (note that the original post said a 46 grapple, not 42) I believe the wizards int would have to be 32-33 Caster level 19+12 (hand Strength)+11 (Int modifier)+4 (Size)=46 now a 19th level wizard who started with an 18 int, applied all of his ability increases to int, read a tome of clear thought +5, and was wearing a +6 headband of intelligence would have a 33 int.
BW0222 01-13-04, 11:44 PM	Hardly broken. They are high level spells. Evards Black Tenticles have a +15 grapple check to multiple creatures (20' radius) from a 7th-level caster and does damage (to multiple creatures). A summoned tiger has a +16 grapple check, plus multiple attacks, rakes, and multiple grapple checks, pinning, etc., etc. Most summoning spells of the same level as a Bigby spell also have equally bad grapples. Even web, solid fog, plant growth, wall of thorns, etc., etc. are all equally effective at holding or slowing someone down. And BTW many don't have SR. Net result is that grappling in general is usually a good tactic against PC/NPC humaniod types.
dantedarkstar 01-14-04, 05:52 AM	The problem is, that Bigby's Hands DO have a bit too high grapple mods. On the other hand, if we make tham "clean", without double ability bonus stack, they are really quite weak. Comparable to Telekinesis (althrough not require concentration). Hmm... maybe removing Int bonus from all grapple checks will make it ? As I said, hands will be quite weak then, but I guess still OK (with thier 30+ Str scores and Large size). If you really have problem with grapple checks from hands, just cut out Int bonus from them (so it's CL+hand's Str mod+size mod). Actually, you need only 30 Int for 19th level wiz to have +46 on grapple with Bigby's Crushing Hand. Don't forget +1 CL from orange ioun stone. Ohh, forgot about eventual Archmage with Spell Power for another +1 CL. So you need just 28 Int for +46 on grapple on 19th level.
Gyrofthewastes 01-14-04, 07:50 AM	Any Sorceror worth his title has taken Still Spell, Silent Spell and Eschewe Material. Grapple him? Who cares?? He can cast while you have Paralyzed/held him, merely grappling does nothing. Yeah, too bad a sorceror can't cast a spell with metamagic feats while grappled (casting time longer than 1 action). Even if a sorceror COULD do that, it's the nasty 20+spell level concentration check that's the gritty part. Without magical enhancements to concentration, that's nothing to scoff at. Of course, a simple freedom of movement spell or item utterly negates that grappling part. Barring that, the hands are generally pretty easy to destroy. The spells are decent, but hardly overpowered when compared to others of similar level.
DakezDarkenblood 01-14-04, 10:50 AM	With Close Quarters Fighting the Hand doesn't stand a chance of grappling a high level fighter. Say 20th level with a +3 greatsword and a 22 strength (not that hard to imagine, right?). +20 BAB + 6 strength WHACK the hand for average damage... 7 + 10 = 17 Ta-da. +43. From a rather wimpy fighter who didn't even specialize. Dragons shrug off attempts to grapple with the hand since some of them boast +60s or more.
(Psi)SeveredHead 01-14-04, 02:54 PM	Most dragons have +60 grapple? It depends on the CR of the dragon. Maybe Klaugh, the CR 26 wonder, has that kind of grapple check... Close Quarters Fighting is a cool feat, but it's not core. It should be, though :)
dobrimag 01-15-04, 07:23 AM	I actualy play the level 19 drow wizard. And i must confess i enjoy min/maxing my wizards, so my DM (Archangel) often weakens my spells and insisnt on inspecting all my calculations (feels like IRS from movies :) ). I've already lost instant death spells (they now do d6 dmg) so i was a bit frustrated when he said he wishes to weaken those spells as well (we play 3.5 E where spells are already nerfed). Now his basic problem was this fight, which i went through without a scratch and our thief, druid and especialy fighter got quite a beating. What my DM would like is a few tips on how to counter high level (min/maxed) wizards and actualy create a difficult scenario for my wizard not to dominate in. Oh and yes i do not think that Bigsby's hand spells are broken or unbalanced.
DakezDarkenblood 01-16-04, 08:10 AM	Of all the source books I use ... Sword and Fist and Complete Warrior are closest to core for me. Fighters without them are so much worse off than any other class without their class book. I think any of the size collosals boast that kind of grapple and more. For that matter, anything size collosal in the MM has that kind of rating.
Archangel 01-17-04, 12:35 AM	To DakezDarkenblood: First you can't use non-light weapons in grapple. Secondly it is only BAB + STR + feats (like improved grapple) + size so 20 + 6 is 26 and not +43! To The Hanged Man: Aha, so you are going to cast 3 spells while the wizard casts only one, i think not; also lvl19 cleric has BAB +14 and not +19! Also you can polymorph into a giant and lose all that high level equipment so the wizard doesn't even have to cast any Hand spell!
chemadam2 01-17-04, 12:43 AM	I certainly hope they don't get nerfed too badly... I have a loner gnomish wizard with a charisma score of 6. Needless to say, he isn't a real hit with the ladies, and often has to resort to "bigby's groping hand."
DakezDarkenblood 01-19-04, 09:03 AM	Originally posted by Archangel To DakezDarkenblood: First you can't use non-light weapons in grapple. Secondly it is only BAB + STR + feats (like improved grapple) + size so 20 + 6 is 26 and not +43! There's a feat called Close Quarters Fighting that allows you to take an attack of opportunity, even against creatures with improved grapple, and add the damage you inflict to your grapple check. It's in Sword and Fist as well as the Complete Warrior. Naturally, if you fail the check you are Grappling and can't use your greatsword anymore... but it's better than nothing. WIthout it yes a fighter is pooched by a crushing hand until he kills it... which he can't and won't because he'll be pinned. He should use his helm of teleportation to get out of there. The feat is the only way a fighter even remotely stands a chance against anything size huge or better that grapple as a tactic (giant scorpions, etc).